The Presence vs. One-Above-All

@_Wolf_Spider_ said:

@Baldy: You have yet to prove anything with your point. I'll let it stand because it means nothing to the actual debate.

Prove what? That your comment was illogical? I explained why it was illogical, the only thing you managed to try to rebuke my "point" was a straw man.

How does it have nothing to do with the debate? Your comment was your entire rational as to why one would beat the other.

Don't believe in any of them. So I win.

@_Wolf_Spider_ said:

@Baldy: I provided proof to as why the Presence was not omnipotent. If your forced to do anything, your not omnipotent. It is literally impossible to force something that is omnipotent to do anything. It defies the definition.

No it doesn't. The only thing that would defy the definition is if there was something more powerful. In fact if an entity could not choose to follow orders then it wouldn't be omnipotent, because that would be an example of something that it could not do.

To prove your point, you have to first prove that he follows orders against his will.

in my opinion TOAA wins, the presence stalemated GEB and he was shaped by externatl forces.

@justleader said:

in my opinion TOAA wins, the presence stalemated GEB and he was shaped by externatl forces.

Irrelevant. The two characters merged.

If they're both omnipotent, isn't it automatically a tie, the end?

@Baldy: what about him being shaped by external forces? also he didnt have power over lucifer's created universe(though i could be wrong on this one)

TOAA. He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

@_Wolf_Spider_ said:

@Baldy: It's a paradox, obviously. Same as as the sandwich paradox. I highly doubt the Presence would follow orders at all if it was truly omnipotent. To do work, something has to have reason to do so. You can't pay something that is omnipotent, and neither can you threaten something that is omnipotent. Anything an omnipotent being feels required to do it would more than likely create something else to do it for them (I.E. The Living Tribunal).

What he was originally saying is:

Inferior in position =/= inferior in power.

@_Wolf_Spider_ said:

@Baldy: It's a paradox, obviously. Same as as the sandwich paradox. I highly doubt the Presence would follow orders at all if it was truly omnipotent. To do work, something has to have reason to do so. You can't pay something that is omnipotent, and neither can you threaten something that is omnipotent. Anything an omnipotent being feels required to do it would more than likely create something else to do it for them (I.E. The Living Tribunal).

Why would it need a reason? People work in charity shops all the time without pay, because they choose to do so. An omnipotent being can choose to do whatever it wants. No paradox involved. Only by showing that it did something against it's will, and that it was resisting the order, would you show that it isn't omnipotent.

@justleader said:

@Baldy: what about him being shaped by external forces? also he didnt have power over lucifer's created universe(though i could be wrong on this one)

That greatly depends on what you mean by shaped. I don't remember seeing anything that suggests he was limited by Lucifer. I could be wrong.

@ShootingNova said:

Inferior in position =/= inferior in power.

Exactly.

@Baldy: and didnt the presence ask lucifer to be one with him, to have all his memories? if so that really lowers presence's power

@justleader said:

@Baldy: and didnt the presence ask lucifer to be one with him, to have all his memories? if so that really lowers presence's power

All that matters is:

TOAA = omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Instakill.

it's a tie

TOAA wins since he represents something beyond the comics. While the Presence doesn't.

@joshuagamer said:

it's a tie

Sorry, not true.

@joshuagamer said:

it's a tie

For Presence to stand a chance against TOAA, should be merged with GEB. Because together, they are equal to TOAA. And even then I doubt that because, TOAA is just literally beyond the comic fictional verse. He's Stan Lee.

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

Proabably, but without any hard evidence to show that the Presence isn't omnipotent. I still consider this to be a tie.

most pointless debate ever. yes, more pointless than Supes vs Thor

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

It must be noted that God from Lucifer is not necessarily the same character as the Presence. Lucifer has a bit of a weird continuity relation with the rest of DC.

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

Peter did not even hear TOAA's advice for that matter.

TOAA just because he's the highest in his unverse, where the presence is tied with GEB in his universe, and even admitted there were higher forces than him.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

Peter did not even hear TOAA's advice for that matter.

Sorry, I don't follow. How is this relevant?

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

Peter did not even hear TOAA's advice for that matter.

Sorry, I don't follow. How is this relevant?

He didn't listen to TOAA's advice. Is this so hard to understand?

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

Peter did not even hear TOAA's advice for that matter.

Sorry, I don't follow. How is this relevant?

He didn't listen to TOAA's advice. Is this so hard to understand?

Yes, I understand what the words you used mean. I'm asking what it has to do with anything.

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

Peter did not even hear TOAA's advice for that matter.

Sorry, I don't follow. How is this relevant?

He didn't listen to TOAA's advice. Is this so hard to understand?

Yes, I understand what the words you used mean. I'm asking what it has to do with anything.

Well, if TOAA was omniscient as you say, then he should've known that, and didn't come from the beginning.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@SpideyPresence said:

i feel as if The presences omnipotence can be debated, while with TOAA it cannot.

even TOAA's can. He gave advises to spider man , GR, etc..... That questions his omniscience. But yes, generally TOAA has the 3 big "O" words.

Sorry, what part of him advising characters questions his omniscience? If anything it reinforces it.

Peter did not even hear TOAA's advice for that matter.

Sorry, I don't follow. How is this relevant?

He didn't listen to TOAA's advice. Is this so hard to understand?

Yes, I understand what the words you used mean. I'm asking what it has to do with anything.

Well, if TOAA was omniscient as you say, then he should've known that, and didn't come from the beginning.

TOAA could well have known in advance that his actions would be futile and decided to do what he did anyway.

@Baldy: And maybe he didn't know. You have no proof. So it's questionable.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: And maybe he didn't know. You have no proof. So it's questionable.

You could make the same argument against any omniscient being that takes any action at all, why bother? They already know what will happen. It isn't a valid argument.

TOAA>GOD TOAA>Omniscient and omnipotent

TOAA>Logic, so he can be higher than the Almighty

TOAA wins,because he was one-above-all

@a88378438 said:

TOAA>GOD TOAA>Omniscient and omnipotent

TOAA>Logic, so he can be higher than the Almighty

TOAA wins,because he was one-above-all

Wait, what? Your claim is that he is stronger than the Presence because his name is the-one-above-all?

You can't fight yourself, so it's not even a stalemate, it's a fruitless attempt suicide

@Jorgevy said:

You can't fight yourself, so it's not even a stalemate, it's a fruitless attempt suicide

They arn't the same character. :/

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: And maybe he didn't know. You have no proof. So it's questionable.

You could make the same argument against any omniscient being that takes any action at all, why bother? They already know what will happen. It isn't a valid argument.

No, but TOAA's advice was just neglected, if it was obliged, that would be another story. But it wasn't.

@a88378438 said:

TOAA>GOD TOAA>Omniscient and omnipotent

TOAA>Logic, so he can be higher than the Almighty

TOAA wins,because he was one-above-all

Wait, what? Which one do I start correcting? Toaa at best=God. TOAA is omnipotent and arguably omniscient.

TOAA is Stan Lee. How is TOAA>Logic??

@Baldy said:

@a88378438 said:

Wait, what? Your claim is that he is stronger than the Presence because his name is the-one-above-all?

Once again, the presence was stalmated with GEB and admitted there are higher beings than him, in Marvel TOAA is the top dog, also MU is considered by many to be bigger than DC as well.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: And maybe he didn't know. You have no proof. So it's questionable.

You could make the same argument against any omniscient being that takes any action at all, why bother? They already know what will happen. It isn't a valid argument.

No, but TOAA's advice was just neglected, if it was obliged, that would be another story. But it wasn't.

@a88378438 said:

TOAA>GOD TOAA>Omniscient and omnipotent

TOAA>Logic, so he can be higher than the Almighty

TOAA wins,because he was one-above-all

Wait, what? Which one do I start correcting? Toaa at best=God. TOAA is omnipotent and arguably omniscient.

TOAA is Stan Lee. How is TOAA>Logic??

TOAA>LOGIC,because the LT say he was Beyond human understanding and imagination

So we can't imagine how powerful it is, and the Almighty is conceivable, for instance ( I can do any thing )

@Baldy said:

@Jorgevy said:

You can't fight yourself, so it's not even a stalemate, it's a fruitless attempt suicide

They arn't the same character. :/

In my mind they are. Marvel and DC are just parallel multiverses, with TOAA and Presence being manifestations or names atributed to the Supreme Being that rules over all and creates all of the universes.

In a way, they are both the supreme gods of their respective universes, and in the crossover Marvel/DC the brothers that represent DC and Marvel were separated but they were brothers, so there must be a father or a creator(TOAA=Presence). That's the way I see it

@Ultrablastic123 said:

@Baldy: Once again, the presence was stalmated with GEB and admitted there are higher beings than him, in Marvel TOAA is the top dog, also MU is considered by many to be bigger than DC as well.

Once again he merged with GEB they didn't stalemate, so this is moot. The fact that there are beings with higher authority than the Presence says nothing about the power of Presence. MU being bigger than DCU is irrelevant.

God and GEB was stalemate

If it is all-powerful, how will the stalemate?

Similarly, if TOAA=DC GOD

TOAA= DC GOD is almighty, omnipotent, i can't belive that

Because the Almighty means no limit, if their impasse, which is limited to the infinite deadlock, it is impossible

So the Christian says there is only one God, because in the logic of only one Almighty

@a88378438 said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: And maybe he didn't know. You have no proof. So it's questionable.

You could make the same argument against any omniscient being that takes any action at all, why bother? They already know what will happen. It isn't a valid argument.

No, but TOAA's advice was just neglected, if it was obliged, that would be another story. But it wasn't.

@a88378438 said:

TOAA>GOD TOAA>Omniscient and omnipotent

TOAA>Logic, so he can be higher than the Almighty

TOAA wins,because he was one-above-all

Wait, what? Which one do I start correcting? Toaa at best=God. TOAA is omnipotent and arguably omniscient.

TOAA is Stan Lee. How is TOAA>Logic??

TOAA>LOGIC,because the LT say he was Beyond human understanding and imagination

So we can't imagine how powerful it is, and the Almighty is conceivable, for instance ( I can do any thing )

Yet he goes giving advices to Spiderman and GR. Nice try. I'll just say a big NO.

@a88378438 said:

God and GEB was stalemate

If it is all-powerful, how will the stalemate?

Similarly, if TOAA=DC GOD

TOAA= DC GOD is almighty, omnipotent, i can't belive that

Because the Almighty means no limit, if their impasse, which is limited to the infinite deadlock, it is impossible

So the Christian says there is only one God, because in the logic of only one Almighty

They didn't stalemate, they merged.

The rest of your post is nonsense and barely readable.

@Baldy: why?lol,please tell how can be has two"Almighty?“

Almighty cannot be restricted, if they are limited, it shows that they are not omnipotent, and you said" they are stalemate"(toaa and DC GOD)

This is the most ridiculous ideas, because in the logic of only one God

@a88378438 said:

@Baldy: why?lol,please tell how can be has two"Almighty?“

Almighty cannot be restricted, if they are limited, it shows that they are not omnipotent, and you said" they are stalemate"(toaa and DC GOD)

This is the most ridiculous ideas, because in the logic of only one God

They don't even exist in the same reality.

@Jorgevy said:

@Baldy said:

@Jorgevy said:

You can't fight yourself, so it's not even a stalemate, it's a fruitless attempt suicide

They arn't the same character. :/

In my mind they are. Marvel and DC are just parallel multiverses, with TOAA and Presence being manifestations or names atributed to the Supreme Being that rules over all and creates all of the universes.

In a way, they are both the supreme gods of their respective universes, and in the crossover Marvel/DC the brothers that represent DC and Marvel were separated but they were brothers, so there must be a father or a creator(TOAA=Presence). That's the way I see it

I'm not sure what you say is correct but i'm a believer. I like this definition

@pooty said:

@Jorgevy said:

@Baldy said:

@Jorgevy said:

You can't fight yourself, so it's not even a stalemate, it's a fruitless attempt suicide

They arn't the same character. :/

In my mind they are. Marvel and DC are just parallel multiverses, with TOAA and Presence being manifestations or names atributed to the Supreme Being that rules over all and creates all of the universes.

In a way, they are both the supreme gods of their respective universes, and in the crossover Marvel/DC the brothers that represent DC and Marvel were separated but they were brothers, so there must be a father or a creator(TOAA=Presence). That's the way I see it

I'm not sure what you say is correct but i'm a believer. I like this definition

thanks, now I just need to buy a church and start the cult

TOAA is Stan Lee himself, the Presence is not even an avatar of the writer.

TOAA wins if we pulls everything outside fictional world.

it's a judeo-christian god vs. judeo-christian god fight, i'm sorry, but you can't put a person against himself and pick a winner