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#51 Edited by Vance Astro (91110 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:

" @Vance Astro said:

" @Nobody said:
Spider-Man ripped his mask off like it was nothing too. "
Yea,but he hurt himself when he punched it.And he was "The Other" at the time. "
I don't recall him beating him.
 
@Vance Astro said:
" @Nobody said:
Iron man was screwed to PIS during that whole era. 
No,he wasn't.Iron Man was at his best after Extremis. "
Maybe in his own title. But he was punked in anything else. "
I didn't say anything about anyone beating anything.When Spider-Man punched Iron Man in the face his hand bled. 
No,Iron Man's feats outside his own book were even with what he did in his book.He had a major energy projection feat in New Avengers\Illuminati,he had several combat feats during Civil War including holding his own with Cap outside the suit,He beat Sentry in Mighty Avengers,he had several tactical feats in Mighty Avengers as well.Where is the PIS? Besides not knocking out Cap when he first punched him in the final fight in Civil War.There wasn't really any PIS against him.Cap made it quite clear without shutting Iron Man's suit down,he didn't have a chance.Which is why he cheated in both encounters in Civil War accept when they fought strictly h2h.
Moderator
#52 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Nobody said:

" @Vance Astro said:

" @Nobody said:
Spider-Man ripped his mask off like it was nothing too. "
Yea,but he hurt himself when he punched it.And he was "The Other" at the time. "
I don't recall him beating him.
 
@Vance Astro said:
" @Nobody said:
Iron man was screwed to PIS during that whole era. 
No,he wasn't.Iron Man was at his best after Extremis. "
Maybe in his own title. But he was punked in anything else. "
I didn't say anything about anyone beating anything.When Spider-Man punched Iron Man in the face his hand bled. No,Iron Man's feats outside his own book were even with what he did in his book.He had a major energy projection feat in New Avengers\Illuminati,he had several combat feats during Civil War including holding his own with Cap outside the suit,He beat Sentry in Mighty Avengers,he had several tactical feats in Mighty Avengers as well.Where is the PIS? Besides not knocking out Cap when he first punched him in the final fight in Civil War.There wasn't really any PIS against him.Cap made it quite clear without shutting Iron Man's suit down,he didn't have a chance.Which is why he cheated in both encounters in Civil War accept when they fought strictly h2h. "
He defeated Sentry in his own book (slight correction, I know).
 
The occasion you recited where Spider-man hurt his hand while hitting Iron Man was during OMD. In the same storyline his armour was overloaded by redirecting energy from his boot jets. That resulted in his armor taking much time to reboot, and Spider-man webbed him up and ripped off his helmet. That's PIS at its finest.
 
Then there is the occasion were he fought Spider-man in the Iron Spider suit and Spider-man punked him and escaped in a sewer. Once again, PIS.
 
Let's not act as if there wasn't PIS against Iron Man during the era. Straczynski treated him like nothing in every single chance he got. Hell, I dare say his fight with Thor in Thor # 3 was very poorly written.
Moderator
#53 Posted by Vance Astro (91110 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:

He defeated Sentry in his own book (slight correction, I know).
 
The occasion you recited where Spider-man hurt his hand while hitting Iron Man was during OMD. In the same storyline his armour was overloaded by redirecting energy from his boot jets. That resulted in his armor taking much time to reboot, and Spider-man webbed him up and ripped off his helmet. That's PIS at its finest.
 
Then there is the occasion were he fought Spider-man in the Iron Spider suit and Spider-man punked him and escaped in a sewer. Once again, PIS.
 
Let's not act as if there wasn't PIS against Iron Man during the era. Straczynski treated him like nothing in every single chance he got. Hell, I dare say his fight with Thor in Thor # 3 was very poorly written.
"
I'm not acting like there was NO PIS toward Iron Man during the time he was wearing the Extremis Armor,I'm saying there was no more than any other era and Iron Man still had some good showings outside of his own book. 
 
The three incidents you named where written poorly but there isn't any era where any character has NO PIS toward them.We can't just dismiss everything that happens because certain people write silly stuff.Captain America's shield is consistently shown to do well against characters that even superhumans have trouble hurting or knocking out.
Moderator
#54 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Morpheus_ said:

He defeated Sentry in his own book (slight correction, I know).
 
The occasion you recited where Spider-man hurt his hand while hitting Iron Man was during OMD. In the same storyline his armour was overloaded by redirecting energy from his boot jets. That resulted in his armor taking much time to reboot, and Spider-man webbed him up and ripped off his helmet. That's PIS at its finest.
 
Then there is the occasion were he fought Spider-man in the Iron Spider suit and Spider-man punked him and escaped in a sewer. Once again, PIS.
 
Let's not act as if there wasn't PIS against Iron Man during the era. Straczynski treated him like nothing in every single chance he got. Hell, I dare say his fight with Thor in Thor # 3 was very poorly written.
"
I'm not acting like there was NO PIS toward Iron Man during the time he was wearing the Extremis Armor,I'm saying there was no more than any other era and Iron Man still had some good showings outside of his own book.  The three incidents you named where written poorly but there isn't any era where any character has NO PIS toward them.We can't just dismiss everything that happens because certain people write silly stuff.Captain America's shield is consistently shown to do well against characters that even superhumans have trouble hurting or knocking out. "
I'm not even commenting on Cap breaking the helmet with Iron Man's system deactivated being PIS. I'm actually in agreement. I just added a few more PIS instances against Iron Man during the era.
Moderator
#55 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:

" @CATMANEXE said:

" ....? this isnt even a match. Steve has straight up humiliated Lizards equal+ endlessly through his long history and in scores at a time. "
what? "
 yes? Steve has been owning armies, thats armies of trained soldiers, and vehicles, and missiles,
and superhumans, and supernatural creatures, monsters, robots, and on and on...since day one which was
all the way back in WW2 (dodging more point blank gunfire than one can count through that as well).
he has danced with Red Skull, Black Panther, Daredevil, Spider-man (and Iron Spider), Flag Smasher,
Rhino, Beast,Iceman, The Wrecking Crew, Iron Fist, Namor, Iron Man, Batroc, Wolverine (while bloodlusted
even), USAgent, Hulk, She-Hulk, Sunfire, Thunderstrike, Carnage, Lady Deathstrike, Absorbing Man,
Scorpion, Mr.Hyde, Armidillo, MODOK, Loki, Captain Britain, Sauron, Starfox, to name a few who's
stats matter here, and he did it all with grace and came out on top. Steve trained almsot every member
of the Avengers to fight and win....

...Lizard has?

I like Lizard. I like Rhino too (Steve knocked him out). Theyre both tough. But they lose alot and theres
alot of reasons they do. Steve is on the opposite end of that spectrum and far beyond it. people
should be aware of where theyre characters actually stand, not where they could potentially stand in 
an alternate timeline.

this isnt even a match.
#56 Posted by Vance Astro (91110 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
I'm not even commenting on Cap breaking the helmet with Iron Man's system deactivated being PIS. I'm actually in agreement. I just added a few more PIS instances against Iron Man during the era. "
I understand that.I'm just saying that there isn't any one era during Iron Man's career where almost everything against him was PIS unless it happened in his book.
Moderator
#57 Posted by k4tzm4n (36394 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @castleking said:

" @CATMANEXE said:

" ....? this isnt even a match. Steve has straight up humiliated Lizards equal+ endlessly through his long history and in scores at a time. "
what? "
 yes? Steve has been owning armies, thats armies of trained soldiers, and vehicles, and missiles,and superhumans, and supernatural creatures, monsters, robots, and on and on...since day one which was all the way back in WW2 (dodging more point blank gunfire than one can count through that as well).he has danced with Red Skull, Black Panther, Daredevil, Spider-man (and Iron Spider), Flag Smasher, Rhino, Beast,Iceman, The Wrecking Crew, Iron Fist, Namor, Iron Man, Batroc, Wolverine (while bloodlusted even), USAgent, Hulk, She-Hulk, Sunfire, Thunderstrike, Carnage, Lady Deathstrike, Absorbing Man, Scorpion, Mr.Hyde, Armidillo, MODOK, Loki, Captain Britain, Sauron, Starfox, to name a few who'sstats matter here, and he did it all with grace and came out on top. Steve trained almsot every memberof the Avengers to fight and win.......Lizard has?I like Lizard. I like Rhino too (Steve knocked him out). Theyre both tough. But they lose alot and theres alot of reasons they do. Steve is on the opposite end of that spectrum and far beyond it. people should be aware of where theyre characters actually stand, not where they could potentially stand in  an alternate timeline. this isnt even a match. "

Not be be a jerk, but a lot of those fights rely on PIS or have a heavy environmental factor...Or, he didn't even win.  For example, Steve defeated Scorpion by pulling back a small tree branch, and releasing it so it swatted Scorpion in the face.  Yet, Scorpion can take hits from Spider-Man....Right.

Staff
#58 Edited by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" @Morpheus_ said:

I'm not even commenting on Cap breaking the helmet with Iron Man's system deactivated being PIS. I'm actually in agreement. I just added a few more PIS instances against Iron Man during the era. "

I understand that.I'm just saying that there isn't any one era during Iron Man's career where almost everything against him was PIS unless it happened in his book. "
 

I think he was generally treated a bit disrespectfully in between 2006-07. But generally speaking, I agree.
 
Oh, and Paladin deactivating the armour (even though Tony used his technopathy to jump start it again) is PIS. Even though they justified it by saying Rahimov created specialised weapons against him.

 
And let's not forget the armour being affected by an EMP arrow during Fallen Son.

Moderator
#59 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n: none taken. Steve beat Spider-man as well. i count your PIS claim as a non-factor.
 
again, wheres Lizards feats . And dont show me the ones where he was enhanced in Torment by magic either,
or the ones involving any of he other Lizards, or every time Spider-Man held back because that was his friend...
wait, nevermind show them, Lizard lost everytime.
#60 Posted by k4tzm4n (36394 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @k4tzm4n: none taken. Steve beat Spider-man as well. i count your PIS claim as a non-factor.  again, wheres Lizards feats . And dont show me the ones where he was enhanced in Torment by magic either, or the ones involving any of he other Lizards, or every time Spider-Man held back because that was his friend... wait, nevermind show them, Lizard lost everytime. "

I haven't taken part in the debate here, only wished to comment on some of the fights you listed for Steve.  For example, the bloodlusted Wolverine, he clearly lost that fight. 
Staff
#61 Edited by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
and logan was not bloodlusted... i was going to comment as well but you beat me to it....
 
logan had bn affected by a werewolve transformation reverting his mind to that of a wolve not bloodlust..
#62 Posted by k4tzm4n (36394 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:
"and logan was not bloodlusted... i was going to comment as well but you beat me to it....
 
logan had bn affected by a werewolve transformation reverting his mind to that of a wolve not bloodlust..
"

Cap said it himself in the match, Logan was basically feral...And in the end, he was going to kill Cap, if not for the fight being stopped.
Staff
#63 Posted by Erik (31602 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @castleking said:
"and logan was not bloodlusted... i was going to comment as well but you beat me to it....
 
logan had bn affected by a werewolve transformation reverting his mind to that of a wolve not bloodlust..
"

Cap said it himself in the match, Logan was basically feral...And in the end, he was going to kill Cap, if not for the fight being stopped. "
I was under the impression that bloodlusted means that character morals do not apply and the BL character will do anything necessary to win. Being feral in my opinion does not fit that description. Being feral is just being a dumb wild animal. 
#64 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
basically that was all logan was a dumb brute animal
#65 Posted by k4tzm4n (36394 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @k4tzm4n said:
" @castleking said:
"and logan was not bloodlusted... i was going to comment as well but you beat me to it....
 
logan had bn affected by a werewolve transformation reverting his mind to that of a wolve not bloodlust..
"

Cap said it himself in the match, Logan was basically feral...And in the end, he was going to kill Cap, if not for the fight being stopped. "
I was under the impression that bloodlusted means that character morals do not apply and the BL character will do anything necessary to win. Being feral in my opinion does not fit that description. Being feral is just being a dumb wild animal.  "

He was trying to kill Cap, though...And IMO, that fits the description you just provided ;)
Staff
#66 Posted by Erik (31602 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n:  
But being feral does not because that was not how Wolverine would have done it had he been in control of his own thoughts. He was forced into bestial thinking. He did not reason, plan or strategize. He just was pawing at Captain America like a rabid dog. 
#67 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio

Werewolf Logan??? no, rewind and try Enemy Of The State.

#68 Posted by k4tzm4n (36394 posts) - - Show Bio
@erik said:
" @k4tzm4n:  But being feral does not because that was not how Wolverine would have done it had he been in control of his own thoughts. He was forced into bestial thinking. He did not reason, plan or strategize. He just was pawing at Captain America like a rabid dog.  "

And he still won....Which was my point to begin with.
Staff
#69 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
yes, we are aware of the brain washed exhausted logan that bn hunting and killing for weeks no sleep and was missing portion of his soul decreasing his willpower fighting skill regeneration and whatnot ect ect...
 
sometimes these writers should be shot.
#70 Posted by Erik (31602 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" @erik said:
" @k4tzm4n:  But being feral does not because that was not how Wolverine would have done it had he been in control of his own thoughts. He was forced into bestial thinking. He did not reason, plan or strategize. He just was pawing at Captain America like a rabid dog.  "
And he still won....Which was my point to begin with. "
Ah. Duly noted.  
 
@castleking said:
" yes, we are aware of the brain washed exhausted logan that bn hunting and killing for weeks no sleep and was missing portion of his soul decreasing his willpower fighting skill regeneration and whatnot ect ect...
 
sometimes these writers should be shot.
"
Lol. 
#71 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
i hate when ppl try to pull the win card on a major one sided handicap fighter and try to palm it off that it can be done on a fair and even fight with some one else or the same fighter..
#72 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:

" yes, we are aware of the brain washed exhausted logan that bn hunting and killing for weeks no sleep and was missing portion of his soul decreasing his willpower fighting skill regeneration and whatnot ect ect...
 
sometimes these writers should be shot.
"

and. theres more...go on. actually, dont. youve been tap dancing around the question so ill repeat it.
 
--
 yes? Steve has been owning armies, thats armies of trained soldiers, and vehicles, and missiles,
and superhumans, and supernatural creatures, monsters, robots, and on and on...since day one which was
all the way back in WW2 (dodging more point blank gunfire than one can count through that as well).
he has danced with Red Skull, Black Panther, Daredevil, Spider-man (and Iron Spider), Flag Smasher,
Rhino, Beast,Iceman, The Wrecking Crew, Iron Fist, Namor, Iron Man, Batroc, Wolverine (while bloodlusted
even), USAgent, Hulk, She-Hulk, Sunfire, Thunderstrike, Carnage, Lady Deathstrike, Absorbing Man,
Scorpion, Mr.Hyde, Armidillo, MODOK, Loki, Captain Britain, Sauron, Starfox, to anema few who's
stats matter here, and he did it all with gracde and came out on top. Steve trained almost every member
of the Avengers to fight and win....

...Lizard has?

again, wheres Lizards feats . And dont show me the ones where he was enhanced in Torment by magic either,
or the ones involving any of he other Lizards, or every time Spider-Man held back because that was his friend...
wait, nevermind show them, Lizard lost everytime.

I like Lizard. I like Rhino too (Steve knocked him out). Theyre both tough. But they lose alot and theres
alot of reasons they do. Steve is on the opposite end of that spectrum and far beyond it.

this isnt even a match.
 
---
ill make it simpler. place Lizard in the list of above contenders. where does he rate? theres someone in there
that represents a better version of everyone of Lizards abilities. where are Lizards feats that even give him a shot here?
what are Steves feats? how do they stack up against each other.
 
and if all youve got is your going to call every moment in Steves history PIS for your win, 
have fun...
#73 Posted by Ferro Vida (34672 posts) - - Show Bio
@DEADLEAF said:
" @castleking said:
"kinda how the lizard tends to cling to his opponent like spidey...
 
instead visualize Cap pushing off him with the shield instead of spidey. 
being a terrible fighter doesnt mean it cant fight with the ferociousness of a savage beast.
and he also has a HF and durability way above caps
 
"
yeah caps not as fast a spidy even thu he packs more eqipment. Liz might have the upper hand (just the way i see it) "
Cap is fast enough to fight Spidey, though.
 

#74 Posted by k4tzm4n (36394 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
"Werewolf Logan??? no, rewind and try Enemy Of The State. "

Didn't Cap just flank logan and one-shot him? Not really making it a "fight" per se....
Staff
#75 Posted by why so serious (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

lizard would destroy captain america.

#76 Posted by Ferro Vida (34672 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America has beaten people stronger and more durable than Lizard, is fast enough to tag Connors while dodging his attacks, and is smart enough to make a strategy to win this fight.

#77 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be an easy win for Steve.  He can hurt the Hulk and smash trucks with his shield, but because the Lizard is bulletproof it won't hurt him? Seriously?  Steve can throw his shield with enough accuracy and power to end this practically before it starts.  He has hit superhumanly agile characters many times, often by making them think he missed and then hitting them with a ricochet.  His skill level in martial arts and his natural talent for tactics gives him enough of an advantage.  He dodges bullets because he can see faster than the bullets can move, so reflexes for dodging the Lizard's "superior" speed aren't a problem.  Add in the shield as a defense, and also a bashing weapon and Steve wins every time.
#78 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio

Lizard is gonna have a vibranium bump on the top of his head

#79 Posted by Vance Astro (91110 posts) - - Show Bio
@why so serious said:
" lizard would destroy captain america. "
I hate you....so much.
Moderator
#80 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @why so serious said:
" lizard would destroy captain america. "
I hate you....so much. "

Both statements make me laugh.
#81 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @why so serious said:
" lizard would destroy captain america. "
I hate you....so much. "
LOL
#82 Posted by mattbryce2000 (1162 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro:
lol, don't we all
#83 Posted by why so serious (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
@Ferro Vida said:

" Captain America has beaten people stronger and more durable than Lizard, is fast enough to tag Connors while dodging his attacks, and is smart enough to make a strategy to win this fight. "

I'm sorry if I hurt ur feelings.
 
  
 
I'm terribly sorry to all of you.  I know that it must hurt you all to see your hero, captain america, Vomit out puke and bananas.
 
But fact is..... he's gonna vomit out a lot more than that if he ticks off the Lizard.
 
#84 Posted by Ferro Vida (34672 posts) - - Show Bio
@why so serious said:
" @Ferro Vida said:

" Captain America has beaten people stronger and more durable than Lizard, is fast enough to tag Connors while dodging his attacks, and is smart enough to make a strategy to win this fight. "

I'm sorry if I hurt ur feelings.
 
  
 
I'm terribly sorry to all of you.  I know that it must hurt you all to see your hero, captain america, Vomit out puke and bananas.
 
But fact is..... he's gonna vomit out a lot more than that if he ticks off the Lizard.
 
"
Congradulations, you posted f@cking fan art and called it an arguement. You have reached new levels of fail.
#85 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
it also has nothing to do with the thread..... and posting the same pictures in other threads that has nothing to do with them is also called spamming...
#86 Posted by Ferro Vida (34672 posts) - - Show Bio
@why so serious: No, seriously. I eagerly await you reply. Can I expect it in two days as usual?
#87 Posted by lilexplizit (150 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America ftw

#88 Posted by castleking (24119 posts) - - Show Bio
@yodagod said:
" This should be an easy win for Steve.  He can hurt the Hulk and smash trucks with his shield, but because the Lizard is bulletproof it won't hurt him? Seriously?  Steve can throw his shield with enough accuracy and power to end this practically before it starts.  He has hit superhumanly agile characters many times, often by making them think he missed and then hitting them with a ricochet.  His skill level in martial arts and his natural talent for tactics gives him enough of an advantage.  He dodges bullets because he can see faster than the bullets can move, so reflexes for dodging the Lizard's "superior" speed aren't a problem.  Add in the shield as a defense, and also a bashing weapon and Steve wins every time. "
within character pls..... i dont see cap slicing the lizard with a shield toss on purpose.....
#89 Posted by Andferne (38808 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mike10 said:
"Captain America I think is only capable of lifting 800 lbs but could bench press 1100 lbs."
Unless I am mistaken his benching 1,100 pounds was also a work-out and not a max lift. It has been some time however since I read the actual comic it was in. (more than just the scan which I have)
#90 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio

 

@castleking:

I wasn't saying he'd kill Connors, in fact I'm sure he would do everything in his power to avoid it.  I was just saying that if he can hurt Hulk and smash trucks he can certainly hurt (as in ko) the Lizard.  Some of the people here seem to think that Steve is incapable of doing enough damage to stop him and I was merely disagreeing.  And since you bumped it, I might as well post the scans that back up my earlier statements.  And I'll add in Steve stomping Tony because Iron Man is much stronger and faster than the Lizard.
 



 
#91 Posted by celmaijmen (330 posts) - - Show Bio

lizard is bullet proof way more agile and faaaaaar more stronger(12 tons compared to 800 lbs), anymalistic insticts, extremelly feral.cap wins ;) haha

#92 Posted by yodagod (2285 posts) - - Show Bio
@celmaijmen:
Did you even look at the scans I posted right above you?   Look at the bottom of page three. 
#93 Posted by pulamea (247 posts) - - Show Bio

im not much of a lizard fan i actually prefer captain america instead of him but what the hell is he going to do to the lizard?captain america can't even hurt him maybe with his shield but lizard's healing factor allows him to grow limbs in seconds and he also healed from ahuge spike which went trough it's chest in 5 seconds.
sure captain america is skilled but when your fighting an opponent who's significantly faster than you with enchanced reflexex, like 1 milion times stronger, with bullet proof skin, healing factor and animalistic instincts, razor sharp claws that's not going to help you no matter how skilled you are.

#94 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Shred Lizard should win this. 

#95 Posted by 651 (202 posts) - - Show Bio

steve 

#96 Posted by pulamea (247 posts) - - Show Bio
@651 said:
" steve  "
seriously he wouldn't even come for this match if he'd know PIS is off
#97 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" Shred Lizard should win this.  "
It's safe to say that the thread starter did not mean for this to be Shed Lizard.
Moderator
#98 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: Then that begs the question as to whether or not the rules are retroactive. Does "current versions" apply to the now current versions or the versions current when the thread was made?
#99 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @Morpheus_: Then that begs the question as to whether or not the rules are retroactive. Does "current versions" apply to the now current versions or the versions current when the thread was made? "
Current versions refer to the time when the thread is done.
Moderator
#100 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_ said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @Morpheus_: Then that begs the question as to whether or not the rules are retroactive. Does "current versions" apply to the now current versions or the versions current when the thread was made? "
Current versions refer to the time when the thread is done. "
Alright then.