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#1 Posted by godzilla07 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

#2 Edited by Cbookman123 (98 posts) - - Show Bio

i'll say Lucifer morningstar wins

#3 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (1524 posts) - - Show Bio

They are both considered to be the second most powerful in their universe, so I will say

stalemate

#4 Posted by Cbookman123 (98 posts) - - Show Bio

....... Well in my opinon in a tough fight it can go either way

#5 Posted by Man_of_Miracles (1524 posts) - - Show Bio

@Cbookman123:

Fair enough

#6 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9427 posts) - - Show Bio

LT= Michael +Lucifer 
So LT wins this

#7 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

LT.

#8 Posted by whydama (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

Draw

#9 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

The only chance Lucifer has against Living Tribunal is with Michael.... Without Michael, LT wins.

#10 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

The only chance Lucifer has against Living Tribunal is with Michael.... Without Michael, LT wins.

This.

#11 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio
@jeanroygrant said:

LT.

#12 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

LT= Michael +Lucifer So LT wins this

Not so much.

Michael + Lucifer = omnipotence. LT is not omnipotent.

#13 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9427 posts) - - Show Bio
@SirMethos said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

LT= Michael +Lucifer So LT wins this

Not so much.

Michael + Lucifer = omnipotence. LT is not omnipotent.

Nah, LT is the second most powerful being in the Marvel Universe. Like Michael and Lucifer, only one of him exist in all of creation. LT is able to destroy and create different multiverses out of his own power. However, Lucifer only possesses the will, while Michael has the power. Together they equal the power of LT. 
#14 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

Nah, LT is the second most powerful being in the Marvel Universe. Like Michael and Lucifer, only one of him exist in all of creation. LT is able to destroy and create different multiverses out of his own power. However, Lucifer only possesses the will, while Michael has the power. Together they equal the power of LT.

Again, not so much. Lucifer's 'power' is essentially manipulation. Reality warping, with no limit. The only thing he is incapable of, is creating something out of nothing. While Michael's power, is infinite creation. He can create, but not manipulate. Again, with no limit. Put together, they are omnipotent.

The Multiverse was created by Michael creating the proto-matter, and Lucifer shaping that proto-matter into the multiverse.

The Living Tribunal is obscenely powerful, but he is not omnipotent.

The Living Tribunal's advantage, is that he can both create and manipulate, though not without limits.

#15 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@SirMethos said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

Nah, LT is the second most powerful being in the Marvel Universe. Like Michael and Lucifer, only one of him exist in all of creation. LT is able to destroy and create different multiverses out of his own power. However, Lucifer only possesses the will, while Michael has the power. Together they equal the power of LT.

Again, not so much. Lucifer's 'power' is essentially manipulation. Reality warping, with no limit. The only thing he is incapable of, is creating something out of nothing. While Michael's power, is infinite creation. He can create, but not manipulate. Again, with no limit. Put together, they are omnipotent.

The Multiverse was created by Michael creating the proto-matter, and Lucifer shaping that proto-matter into the multiverse.

The Living Tribunal is obscenely powerful, but he is not omnipotent.

The Living Tribunal's advantage, is that he can both create and manipulate, though not without limits.

Lucifer is stated to have infinite will. And he shrunk the multiverse to the size of his fist.... Yes, he has infinite manipulation.

Michael can create only using the power of Demiurge (the presence's power). It's not his. But still together they are not omnipotent, because the Presence isn't omnipotent either, due to several reasons (stalemating GEB, asking Lucifer to merge with him, shaped by external beings, etc..). Now, LT isn't omnipotent either, he got defeated by Thanos, and Protege, and was shitting his pants with the Beyonder incident. And of course, he has a master (Toaa).

So I say, Michael and Lucifer stalemate LT.

#16 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9427 posts) - - Show Bio
@SirMethos
No, they both have limits, however stretched and small they may be. Omnipotent is thrown around this site way too much. If Mchael and Lucifer together are truly omnipotent then there must be two Gods in the DC universe, which is untrue. God is the only being with true omnipotence. The Living Tribunal not being omnipotent in no way decreases his worth. Its already been established that he is number 2 in the Marvel universe. Michael and Lucifer are just two halves of the number two spot in DC. 
#17 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9427 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos:  
The true God of DC is confusing. Some say its the presence and some say its the overmonitor
#18 Posted by SpideyPresence (1906 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate

#19 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos: The true God of DC is confusing. Some say its the presence and some say its the overmonitor

Yeah I know, but we don't know much about the Primal/over monitor.....

That's pretty much all we know about him. He's bigger than universes (which is not very impressive when compared to Toaa or omnipotence). And is an infinite intelligence, biggest life form, etc... But nowhere does it mentions, that he is supreme or omnipotent. Nor did the writers ever say that he is. And Presence isn't omnipotent IMO. He has too many feats that contradict his omnipotence.

#20 Posted by SpideyPresence (1906 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: That scan seems to contradict Monitor's omnipotence when it said a flaw is found at the heart of monitor perfection.

#21 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9427 posts) - - Show Bio
@kingkronos:  
Yep, its confusing
#22 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@SpideyPresence said:

@kingkronos: That scan seems to contradict Monitor's omnipotence when it said a flaw is found at the heart of monitor perfection.

No one actually said that Anti Monitor is omnipotent.... And I don't see how it contradicts his omnipotence (assuming he is omnipotent).

#23 Posted by SpideyPresence (1906 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: Never said anyone said he was. But there seems to be confusion about it among fans. If he was omnipotent why would he let a flaw in his "heart of monitor perfection"

#24 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: They do have limits. Lucifer's limit is that he cannot create something out of nothing. And Michael's limit is that he can only Create, he can't change/manipulate anything. And considering that they are on opposite sides, that is another limit to their 'omnipotence'. But yes, if/when the two work in unison, they are omnipotent. Another limit they both have, is that they are neither Omniscient nor Omnipresent, but that doesn't change the fact of their power.

Their 'omnipotence' does not make them a second 'God', it merely makes them extremely powerful.

As for The Living Tribunal, he is not omnipotent. He is 'nigh-omnipotent'. His defeat at the hands of Protegé got retconned, apparently it was only one of LT's M-bodies that was defeated, not the full power of the LT.

#25 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos: The true God of DC is confusing. Some say its the presence and some say its the overmonitor

I thought the God of the DC Universe was that kid Wally from the Supergirl series.

#26 Posted by TERMINATORXX (3899 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer

#27 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9427 posts) - - Show Bio
@SirMethos:  
They aren't Omnipotent. They aren't God. By definition, only the supreme being, the one with all the power can be omnipotent. Like the LT, together they are nigh-omnipotent. The very fact that they still answer to someone in the DC universe proves my point 
 
@Jayfournines said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos: The true God of DC is confusing. Some say its the presence and some say its the overmonitor

I thought the God of the DC Universe was that kid Wally from the Supergirl series.

Im not sure what you're talking about lol
#28 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@SpideyPresence said:

@kingkronos: Never said anyone said he was. But there seems to be confusion about it among fans. If he was omnipotent why would he let a flaw in his "heart of monitor perfection"

Yeah, I agree. There is a huge misconception. Apparently, at one point we are told that Presence is God, the omnipotent one, and the next thing, we are told that he's shaped by external forces, stalemated GEB, etc.... Then we have the source, which was also said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and the next thing we see Lucifer morningstar, just ignoring it.

As for Primal Monitor, I think he/she/it is just an uberpowerful being. But he may as well be the external force who shaped the Presence..... Although I hardly believe that he is omnipotent. @SirMethos said:

@buttersdaman000: They do have limits. Lucifer's limit is that he cannot create something out of nothing. And Michael's limit is that he can only Create, he can't change/manipulate anything. And considering that they are on opposite sides, that is another limit to their 'omnipotence'. But yes, if/when the two work in unison, they are omnipotent. Another limit they both have, is that they are neither Omniscient nor Omnipresent, but that doesn't change the fact of their power.

Their 'omnipotence' does not make them a second 'God', it merely makes them extremely powerful.

As for The Living Tribunal, he is not omnipotent. He is 'nigh-omnipotent'. His defeat at the hands of Protegé got retconned, apparently it was only one of LT's M-bodies that was defeated, not the full power of the LT.

Actually, Lucifer MS once displayed omnipresence, but just once. And I'm sure they both are nigh omniscient.

And a full powered LT got defeat by Thanos w/ HotU.

@TERMINATORXX said:

Lucifer

Not true.

#29 Posted by TERMINATORXX (3899 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: why? Lucifer controlls reality, warping and magic.

#30 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@SirMethos:
They aren't Omnipotent. They aren't God. By definition, only the supreme being, the one with all the power can be omnipotent. Like the LT, together they are nigh-omnipotent. The very fact that they still answer to someone in the DC universe proves my point

@Jayfournines said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@kingkronos: The true God of DC is confusing. Some say its the presence and some say its the overmonitor

I thought the God of the DC Universe was that kid Wally from the Supergirl series.

Im not sure what you're talking about lol

From the Supergirl series where she was an angel or something like that. God was a kid named 'Wally' (short for YAWHE I think)

#31 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer, effortless curbstomp

#32 Posted by SirMethos (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

Yeah, I agree. There is a huge misconception. Apparently, at one point we are told that Presence is God, the omnipotent one, and the next thing, we are told that he's shaped by external forces, stalemated GEB, etc.... Then we have the source, which was also said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and the next thing we see Lucifer morningstar, just ignoring it.

The Presence, in and of itself, is not God/Yahweh. Just like The Voice, The Hand, and The Source, it is only an aspect of Yahweh. It is the aspect that is most often spoken of, but just one aspect nonetheless(just like The Voice is the aspect that is most often seen/heard).

Neither of those aspects are, in and of themselves, Omnipotent. Yahweh is.

#33 Posted by Assman (1818 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

LT= Michael +Lucifer So LT wins this

How do people equate this?? Is it actually written somewhere, or this is what they believe??

#34 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@TERMINATORXX said:

@kingkronos: why? Lucifer controlls reality, warping and magic.

LOL. Infinity Gaunlet has unlimited control over: Space, Time, Power, Soul, Reality, and Mind. And Living Tribunal shut it down like nothing.

@SirMethos said:

@kingkronos said:

Yeah, I agree. There is a huge misconception. Apparently, at one point we are told that Presence is God, the omnipotent one, and the next thing, we are told that he's shaped by external forces, stalemated GEB, etc.... Then we have the source, which was also said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and the next thing we see Lucifer morningstar, just ignoring it.

The Presence, in and of itself, is not God/Yahweh. Just like The Voice, The Hand, and The Source, it is only an aspect of Yahweh. It is the aspect that is most often spoken of, but just one aspect nonetheless(just like The Voice is the aspect that is most often seen/heard).

Neither of those aspects are, in and of themselves, Omnipotent. Yahweh is.

So who is the true God (Yahweh) in Dc? Is he/she known?

#35 Posted by ShootingNova (15469 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh said:

Lucifer, effortless curbstomp

Not even remotely true.

#36 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComocYahweh: Funny guy.

#37 Posted by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate. Neither can do what the other can't undo.

While Lucifer cannot create from his own power, this does not give the LT the win, as anything he creates, Lucifer will also be able to manipulate. The only times we've ever seen Lucifer hurt(to my recollection) is from his own power or Michael's power.

#38 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

Lt wins

#39 Posted by ComocYahweh (661 posts) - - Show Bio

@OblivionKnight said:

Stalemate. Neither can do what the other can't undo.

While Lucifer cannot create from his own power, this does not give the LT the win, as anything he creates, Lucifer will also be able to manipulate. The only times we've ever seen Lucifer hurt(to my recollection) is from his own power or Michael's power.

Lucifer might not be able to actually create something new, that is something only God can do, and Michael with the demiurgos, however Lucifer still has nigh omnipotent reality warping powers, far beyond LT.

#40 Posted by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

Lucifer will smash LT I will debate anyone on this issue

#41 Posted by XiiX (7416 posts) - - Show Bio

Probably Lucifer.

#42 Posted by kuartus4 (57 posts) - - Show Bio

A few things. People here are saying that Lucifer Morningstar cannot create without Michael's help. But I specifically remember seeing scans of Lucifer creating an entire universe complete with a replica of the garden of eden, and even adam and eve. He even said jokingly that it was ALMOST original!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Lucifer139.jpg

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Lucifer140.jpg

About The presence vs GEB, didn't presence absorb GEB, thereby incorporating it into himself, rather than the other way around? that sounds to me like presence was stronger.

As to the overmonitor. Could he be considered something like the canvas or paper in which the presence "painted" the multiverse? If so then it would make sense for the presence to have also created the overmonitor as well.

I think the external forces that the presence alludes to shaping him, is an instance of the presence breaking the fourth wall and reffering to the writers of the DC universe. He is so high up the hierarchy that he is aware of the writers of the DC Comics.

#43 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Only person who had ever beat LT was Thanos with the Heart of the Infinite. Considering HOTI is One above Alls power I go with LT. Lucifer been outsmarted by Constatine lol.

#44 Posted by Saren (25272 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

Lucifer been outsmarted by Constatine lol.

Lucifer has never even met Constantine, so I'm not sure why you think Constantine has outsmarted him.

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#45 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Lucifer been outsmarted by Constatine lol.

Lucifer has never even met Constantine, so I'm not sure why you think Constantine has outsmarted him.

I know your a bigger DC buff than me. Lucifer is the Devil and Constatine Outsmarted him more than once yes? If not then Constantine never outsmarted any Supernatural Power? If its not Lucifer just who did he outsmarted?

#46 Edited by Saren (25272 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Lucifer been outsmarted by Constatine lol.

Lucifer has never even met Constantine, so I'm not sure why you think Constantine has outsmarted him.

I know your a bigger DC buff than me. Lucifer is the Devil and Constatine Outsmarted him more than once yes? If not then Constantine never outsmarted any Supernatural Power? If its not Lucifer just who did he outsmarted?

Constantine outsmarted the First of the Fallen several times. Completely different character who bears most of pop culture's standard Devil characteristics. John had a few drinks at Lucifer's club once, but apart from that they've never spoken a word to each other or had any kind of interaction at all.

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#47 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: Oh yeah I got a bone to pick with you. (Pulls of Glove and smacks) How can you Lowball DKR Batman feat vs Superman as weak showing in Prep and Circumstance? Just becuase its a weaker Superman I still place said Supes same level as Supreme Power early Hyperion. Ontop of that Batman was crippled from wounds and 10 years retired at age 50 something. It was a much better Feat than Batman in Hush with a silly Krypto Ring... which is funny cause DKR Superman took a Nuke and them Krypto Gas and still held out a Insider Suit Batman vs Mainstream Supes beaten down with no previous injury by Batman with a small Ring.

Rant done.

#48 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Lucifer been outsmarted by Constatine lol.

Lucifer has never even met Constantine, so I'm not sure why you think Constantine has outsmarted him.

I know your a bigger DC buff than me. Lucifer is the Devil and Constatine Outsmarted him more than once yes? If not then Constantine never outsmarted any Supernatural Power? If its not Lucifer just who did he outsmarted?

Constantine outsmarted the First of the Fallen several times. Completely different character who bears most of pop culture's standard Devil characteristics. John had a few drinks at Lucifer's club once, but apart from that they've never spoken a word to each other or had any kind of interaction at all.

Well good to know for futur debates against Constatine with Prep. Now I don't have to hear how he beat Lucifer, a nigh omnipotent being, with prep.

#49 Posted by Saren (25272 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane: Oh yeah I got a bone to pick with you. (Pulls of Glove and smacks) How can you Lowball DKR Batman feat vs Superman as weak showing in Prep and Circumstance? Just becuase its a weaker Superman I still place said Supes same level as Supreme Power early Hyperion. Ontop of that Batman was crippled from wounds and 10 years retired at age 50 something. It was a much better Feat than Batman in Hush with a silly Krypto Ring... which is funny cause DKR Superman took a Nuke and them Krypto Gas and still held out a Insider Suit Batman vs Mainstream Supes beaten down with no previous injury by Batman with a small Ring.

Rant done.

That Superman was weak enough that a nuke nearly killed him. As compared to regular Superman who can literally eat a nuke if he felt like it. On top of that Superman spent the entire fight telling Batman to basically stop acting like an idiot since he could tear him in half with one finger if he wanted to, so he was holding back, and Batman's age and wounds hardly mean a thing when he's operating a suit of armor designed to accomplish a feat humans cannot perform. That was also not the Insider Suit or anything near it, and Superman was never beaten down in Hush. Batman would have been killed in Hush if Catwoman hadn't shown up with Lois. And he would have been killed in TDKR if Green Arrow hadn't been there. TDKR Superman was beaten bloody by Batman wearing a large tin can after being shot by a kryptonite trick arrow, Hush Superman had minor wounds after being punched by Batman wearing a kryptonite ring and hit with the electrical supply of an entire city.

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#50 Posted by Saren (25272 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@CadenceV2 said:

Lucifer been outsmarted by Constatine lol.

Lucifer has never even met Constantine, so I'm not sure why you think Constantine has outsmarted him.

I know your a bigger DC buff than me. Lucifer is the Devil and Constatine Outsmarted him more than once yes? If not then Constantine never outsmarted any Supernatural Power? If its not Lucifer just who did he outsmarted?

Constantine outsmarted the First of the Fallen several times. Completely different character who bears most of pop culture's standard Devil characteristics. John had a few drinks at Lucifer's club once, but apart from that they've never spoken a word to each other or had any kind of interaction at all.

Well good to know for futur debates against Constatine with Prep. Now I don't have to hear how he beat Lucifer, a nigh omnipotent being, with prep.

I don't recall anyone on a Constantine thread making that claim, but whatever. He's beaten other powerful beings like Gabriel and the First of the Fallen with prep and once had his capacity for raising hell with his brains ratified by the Presence of all people, so there's still stuff you'll have to hear.

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