The Kravinoff Family VS The Bat-Family

not at all, if he can't come up with a tactic so blatantly evident with his powers and equipment like webbing Steve's shield he shouldn't be a super-hero. This isn't good tactic, it's webbing use 101.  
 

 Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's stupid or PIS. regular humans have survived in the real world falling from planes at 1100 meter altitudes. Do you know the impact power of such a drop? Steve and Bruce aren't regular humans, they are peak humans. It makes sense and it's consistent with every bit of their history. Hate it all you want, it is not stupid and neither is it PIS   
 

   With his attributes Peter should have left street level long ago, he hasn't. Enough said.   
 

 your point?     

   I'm not underestimating him. I'm speaking the truth. Peter is a terrible fighter and tactician who keeps up because of his powers. When someone accomplishes more, all the time with less. He is better, that is all.   
 

 I like Peter, he was the 3rd super-hero I started reading a long time ago. But this rampant shenanigans about him holding back is ridiculous. It's an ingrained fact of the character that he is not a good fighter and that he relies entirely on his powers. People have to get over it and accept it. He ain't that good in skill and instinct. Doesn't make him a bad or uninteresting character. But there's no denying where he is in the food chain.

 there's a difference between being unskilled and tactically challenged and being an idiot. Also read the statement that led to that comment again. Because I don't think you caught the meaning behind it.   
 

 yeah two times with all these superior attributes. Only strenghtens my point.   

  Peter is so cocky and unskilled I don't see anything like what you describe here happening. Steve has fought better time and again in his Avenger and solo runs. 
 

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 Kingpin is nowhere near Captain America's level in fighting and tactical ability. And by all good writing DD, Cap and Punisher should never have any trouble against him.   
 

   yes he would, without skill he'll make predictable clumsy mistakes and go down just like everyone else who doesn't fight with tactics. 
 

" I also know real human are dying from falling from buildings or from car accidents. A non super-human like batman and Steve who always has been hurt by normal humans like crossbones, bane and others, will somehow survive from a punch that can lift over 10 tons is beyond me."

"Accomplishes more. Let me know, when cap has ever faced someone with a danger sense, webbing and amazing agility and all these powers at their best. 
I guess, i will never take an answer on that, becuase Steve has never faced someone like a bloodlusted spidey."

" Do you really need more? "

"Seriously, if spidey is fighting at the best of his ability without holding back, i don't see how cap will beat him."

" Add his amazing agility, webbing and strength, and cap will go down with one hit. I know he is skilled and amazing tactitian, but this won't be a big help when he is facing a superior in speed and agility, opponent that can drop you with one hit.  "

"
The point is that when he was not holding back, he beaten an opponent that in the past has beaten spidey, because he was holding back. "

Just thought I'd weigh in here on puny Parker...
 
The guy's been a superhero since he was a teenager, but he still fairly often loses against low-tier opponents. Think about that for a second. Read it again, and then ask yourself "is it even remotely reasonable for him to lose as often as he does?" This is a guy who has had years of fighting that should have trained to be a lot better than he is. You can't even put his losses down to holding back, and you can't put them down to him just being weak, either given what his powerset actually is. So, how has this genius superhero managed to keep getting embarrassed and not really become a better fighter, despite the fact that fighting is a large part of his life, especially against people with the superpowers needed to fight him? 
 
It's the writing. Spiderman is written as the "win-some-lose-some-everyman". He's a down-on-his-luck photographer. His entire sales pitch is that people can relate to him fairly easily.
 That's why we don't see much in the way of real progress out of him. That's why this science prodigy with the proportionate strength of a spider never gets into some heavy weightlifting, to better increase the amount of lifting he can do, despite the fact that he's been in situations where things were just too heavy. It's why we never see him trying to get some more hand-to-hand combat training, despite the fact that he's surrounded by colleagues who would be happy to educate him, and despite the fact that he has gone up against plenty of characters strong enough to cancel (or worse) his strength advantage.

Getting hurt by something and losing to that same thing is two different things.

Check Steve's track record, especially his best Avenger and solo series. He has faced more powerful opponents then Spider-Man many, many times.   
 

actual evidence of how better he is when "not holding back" against credible opponents in his power range. Never happened before.   
 

Same way he's beaten every other super-powered opponent he's beaten with superior fighting skill, tactical ability, instincts and experience.   
 

  Peter won't drop Steve in one hit, Steve has taken punches from far stronger opponents and gotten back up on multiple occasions. And he fights much smarter. 
 

  an opponent not in Cap's league, no proof of anything. 
 

"    Also, we are debating something off-topic. We should debate in a PM or i should bump a cap vs spidey thread and make a new OP. I don't want to ruin K4tz's thread. =] "

" So... The biggest debate here has been Spidey VS Cap? LOL "

" @Crom-Cruach: eh, you've kept this thread on page 1... So thanks, hah. "

" So... The biggest debate here has been Spidey VS Cap? LOL "

Honestly, I'd have to give this one to the Bat-Family.

Considering Batman for this point is that he knows over 200 different types of martial arts and has his own form of martial arts. he has peak physical ability and is arguably the most powerful JLA member. although he is definitely the most experienced and skilled. he has beaten far worse than Kraven the Hunter and his family. With all my knowledge of most characters Batman would take this single handedly.

Jason todd is a very powerful attribute to Batman and is extremely skilled also. I have never been a big fan of Jason Todd as Robin OR Red Hood but granted, he is practically second to Batman.

Dick Grayson is also Extremely well trained. its at this point in i think, hasn't Batman trained some of the greatest fighters and heroes in the DC Universe. Dick Grayson the boy wonder Robin at a relatively young age and was at the top of his game for all of his fighting types and his other abilities such as detective work, parkour etc. He is not as well a tracker like Batman.

Don't know anything about Tim Drake (Apparantly hes a whiny bitch)

As for the Kraven family i understand that they have these animalistic superpowers, but Batman, Dick Grayson and Red Hood have all beaten worse.

Jason oneshots them :P