The Justice League vs Dark Phoenix

@ghostravage: Welcome to the vine... You are indeed creating your reputation via this kind of comments. Keep it up.

Aw, cut the brother some slack mon ami. He's a noob around here. Welcome to the 'Vine @darkraiden! You are correct about neither side stomping though;D Good call.

@ghostravage: LoL i love how you worded your comment to them lmao. Not being mean but when I say it I was like *-* um really lmao

@ghostravage and @heraldofganthet thanks for the welcome, though I do respectively disagree. Yes, Emma reformed herself, but that is the only time I've seen a phoenix host do such a thing. From my knowledge, Dark Phoenix is usually Jean, and she has NEVER done so when physically damaged. I'm saying if let's say 4/5 she's been beaten by Magneto, Xorn, Thor, and whatnot and she didn't reform herself or heal herself, then it's more likely she WON'T reform than to say she will. Phoenix Force would stomp, and I believe that with what Dark Phoenix has shown (not Emma with Phoenix Force), she'd be put down with a blitz/physical beatdown from the speedier, planet busting members of the JL. I can't see her taking it and getting up, nor can I see her reacting to it in time.

Spoken like a veteran of the vine. Welcome to the vine and I agree 100% with this. Along with the fact there is no conclusive evidence that the host is exempt from the speed force.

I just thought of something outside of the brute force VS brute force angle everyone seems to be after here. The Dark Phoenix has an abysmal body count (somewhere in the tens of billions) that she is personally responsible for. If Dr. Strange could terrify Galactus with all the blood on HIS hands, it makes perfect sense that the Spectre (being the Spirit of Vengeance incarnate) could easily flood Dark Phoenix with all of the evil she's done before she ever got into Neptune's orbit, let alone before she got to Earth. Win by default: Heroes of DC Earth.

Dark Pheonix has my vote.

Phantom Stranger would win but I don't see him in the picture.

Sun-dipped Superman would win, handily.

The wizard Shazam would lose but would last for a while, buying time for Supes to sundip.

Flash was able to inconvenience Superboy Prime and Superboy Prime would stomp DP. So Flash has a shot, but, DP is a lot smarter - no, that's not right, SBP has super intelligence - Dark Phoenix is a lot saner than Superboy Prime and could kill Flash in any number of ways if he doesn't play one of his two cards - speedforce entrapment or infinite mass punch - just right.

Superman not sundipped is not normally in Phoenix's weight class, but, he was able to fight Kal-L. Kal-L has 50% of the power of pre-COIE Superman and so is, like Superboy Prime, more powerful than marvel abstracts, including Phoenix. So his top showings have a shot.

Captain Atom evolves into Monarch who is in DP's weight class.

Nabu could annoy DP for a while, again buying time for Superman to sundip. Sundipped Superman > Imperiex > DP, > Worlogog which is in DP's weight class

Parallax Hal can beat DP.

Wonder Woman with all her cheese (goddess of truth, etc) can annoy her. Alan Scott with Star Heart absorbed is in her weight class.

That said, if the run of the mill versions of the JLA show up, and not their top showings, and if they show up without any of their power ups, they can annoy DP but can not win.

What!?

Just to let you know, if Spectre is involved, he stomps her regardless.

@darkraiden: Just to let you know, if Spectre is involved, he stomps her regardless.

I don't disagree with this, I just wanted to point out a potentially different path to victory.

@CadenceV2: Speed force dumping and locking her away in it forever ought to win it.

@nickthedevil: Speed force dumping and locking her away in it forever ought to win it.

BFR via Kinetic Manipulation....Could work....

You said ought to, key word. Phoenix came back from the Mkraan Crystal after trapping herself in it, a impossible feat. Also I never seen speed Force dump on any being on a near Universal level as Pheonix. Or on any being with Matter Manipulation for that matter.

@cadencev2: Precisely my main point about Speed Force... Can it affect reality warpers? People just assume it will act with no kind of resistance... Like its something flawless... Which i hardly doubt.

@heraldofganthet: I dont think that would work against the phoenix because since shes the force of creation an destruction maybe everything shes done if for a reason ya know. How can u make the force of creation an destruction "feel bad"(ya know what i mean) for doing what it was made for

This is wrong. Dark Phoenix is not a host. Jeans body was ravaged by radiation and the Phoenix Force came to her. Jeans body was placed in a cocoon to heal, the Phoenix Force created a duplicated body for itself and took a piece of Jean so that it could pretend to be her. The Dark Phoenix was the Phoenix Force and not a host. Xorn and Phoenix was already explained earlier in the thread for the PIS it was (and that was a Jean/Phoenix body merge), Magneto faced a Phoenix with self imposed blocks on her powers that Dark Phoenix never had, Onslaught and Apocalypse have never faced the Phoenix, only Jean Grey using the name, imagery and costume, and the piece that came to Earth recently kicked Thor's ass every time, the only time he was even remotely successful was when he deflected a blast back at a possessed Rachel that was not tapping her full power at the time. So no they won't be destroying the body of the Dark Phoenix unless she makes herself vulnerable to physical attacks the way she did to commit suicide with an ancient Kree weapon that was far less advanced than any of the Shi'ar weapons she has survived.

@gritterr:

I stand by my assessment. A lot of fans on this board really seem to like 1) reality warpers 2) abstracts and 3) cosmics. DCU history is filled with characters who are none of those things yet have enough power to godstomp characters like Dark Phoenix. Any pre-COIE Kryptonian, even a member of the Legion of Super Pets, can, with PIS turned off, use the Marvel Universe as a fire hydrant, characters like Dark Phoenix and Galactus included.

Everyday showing of post-Crisis DCU characters are not going to beat Dark Phoenix, but if they show up at there best and bring their 'power-ups,' they win

This is the most biased and silliest comment i've ever suffered from reading... You are totally W-R-O-N-G kid.

@magnificentstorm: I dont think that would work against the phoenix because since shes the force of creation an destruction maybe everything shes done if for a reason ya know. How can u make the force of creation an destruction "feel bad"(ya know what i mean) for doing what it was made for

I like this question because it's a very good one. Props. Making the Phoenix Force itself "feel bad" might be an impossibilty, due to (as you put it) her being a Force of Creation. The host in the drivers seat however, has a conscience, and is fully capable of feeling remorse. That split second/20 minute gap between "Oh my gosh, what have I done?" and the Phoenix Force reasserting control is all any of the bruisers i've previously named to banish or defeat her. Which is all that's necessary for the DC team(s) to win here. Destroying her outright would be a nigh-impossibility due to its very nature. IMO.

@ghostravage:

I've read the entire run of Superman, since 1938. There are low showings, but the high showings are multiversal and above.

Most people don't know the difference between current Superman and the Superman of the fifties to mid-80's. I guess that's why on this board I see insane statements like "Superman is low herald" or "Superman would lose to Galactus."

Superman yelled at 12 billion decibels while facing the super machines in his own fortress, and while weakened from red solar attack and Q-energy attack. A yell of twelve billion decibels contains much more energy than the total energy of our universe.

So, pre-COIE Superman could, if he wanted, kill anyone at Universal level or below with a Super Shout. Other marvel characters (like Thanos with HOTU or TLT) might put up a fight, but any pre-Crisis Kryptonian, with PIS turned off and bloodlusted, could easily take out

Dark Phoenix

Eternity

Death

Galactus

The In-Betweener

Shuma-Gorath

(and anyone below)

This contradicts comicvine groupthink, but is absolutely true and even obvious to anyone who has read the pre-Crisis high feats.

If Modern Superman can have a best showing where he hangs with the likes of Kal-L and Superboy Prime, both Dark Phoenix's superiors, then he certainly can, with a sundip, win this fight.

@precrisisflea: This contradicts comicvine groupthink, but is absolutely true and even obvious to anyone who has read the pre-Crisis high feats

Are we even allowed to use Pre-Crisis Superman in this fight? We might, but I'd have to go back and re-read the OP to make sure. If that's the case, then Pre-Crisis Dr. Fate would also be on the table, and he and Silver Age Dr. Strange easily stood shoulder to shoulder in terms of raw power AND feats. Yeah, ima have to go back and check the OP on this one. By the way, Welcome to the 'Vine!

@heraldofganthet: Not using pre-COIE Superman - PIS off, he godstomps Dark Phoenix and beats any MU character without exception - but, modern Superman's best showings are the following:

1) Drawing blood from Kal-L

2) Making Superboy Prime wince

3) Defeating Imperiex while sundipped

4) Defeating Maggehdon

This is the same version of Superman who started off as Byrneman. Byrneman can't do anything to DP; a punch that could draw blood from Kal-L would do plenty to any MU character. So whether it is his best showing that shows up, or sundipped version, or just the everyday version makes a huge difference.

@precrisisflea:

For the sake of full disclosure, I too think that a sundipped Superman (Pre or Post-Crisis) is a formidable force. But according to what @magnificentstorm said, the OP demands that this is a surprise attack on DC Earth by the Dark Phoenix. I'm not entirely sure that he'd have the time to sundip under those circumstances. IMO.

@heraldofganthet: He can do sun and back in two minutes, tops. The other heroes can keep her busy long enough to buy the time and long enough to keep her from just destroying Earth's sun.

There is no such thing as a sundipped pre-Crisis Superman. He would go to the sun to clean his uniform after working with dangerous chemical in the FOS, but did not get (or need) a powerup from doing so

@precrisisflea: He would go to the sun to clean his uniform after working with dangerous chemical in the FOS

I had forgotten this. Man, does it take me back (although I'm probably showing my age just by saying this much;)

What would two minutes of sunspipping accomplish? She can just eat the entire Sun in less time. Not that being sundipped would matter anyway. She left Earth and made it to the Sun in seconds in order to use a slingshot affect to open the stargate that took her to the D'bari star system, so she can beat him there knock his ass back to Earth, eat the Sun and get to Earth in time to finish killing him and his team.

Ehh, i gotta give it to the giant fiery death bird

@lordofallhumans: Sundipping = instant win for Superman, even if the sun gets eaten afterwards by DP. Sundipping allowed modern Superman to overpower the Imperiex engine, which was more powerful than Dark Phoenix, and about as powerful as the (universal) phoenix force, as it had the power to annihilate and recreate the universe. There's no indication that the amount of time in the sun mattered. Batman was also certain that, by sundipping, Superman would be more than powerful enough to take out the Worlogog, which grants at least a universal level of omnipotence. So it would definitely make a difference if Superman did make it to the sun, and, once he sundipped,blowing up the sun won't save DP from being stomped. I do not think the rest of the team can beat her without Superman, at least, their average showings can't, but without a doubt they have enough power to buy Superman sufficient time to get to the sun and back without it being destroyed.

@heraldofganthet: It was good stuff. Power levels aside, the late seventies-early 80's version of the character was just a better character.

Green Phoenix has been able to transmutate energy and matter and in her own words she has total telekinetic control over matter.

There's no reason she couldn't turn the entire JL into stone and or drain them off their energy at the start, including Wally's Speed Force Energy and depower him, or transmutate that energy any number of ways. DP should take this solidly

I don't think you get what I am saying, he won't make it to the Sun before she can get there and eat it. Let's say she allows him too, (yes I said allow because she can read his mind instantly and know his every thought and move before he makes it) he is now full of the energy that she can easily drain. You say he overpowered something more powerful than Dark Phoenix and about as power as the (universal) Phoenix Force. The Dark Phoenix is the universal Phoenix Force gone rogue, and is the same Phoenix Force that was able to contain a power that could annihilate the multiverse, the M'Kraan crystal. Even if he does sundip he won't stomp her, because as I mentioned she can drain him dry, or mind rape him across every plane of existence, while attacking his team and taking them out simultaneously. She can attack multiple targets a hundred different ways at once, just ask the Xmen. If you really think his physical attacks, no matter how enhanced will make a difference you are mistaken. She could wave her hand and transmute them all into golden or crystal statues ending this very quickly, or she can toy with them for a while and end it slow. Either way she wins.

@lordofallhumans: Reality warpers are not the top of the food chain. Neither are abstracts or the otherwise cosmically empowered. Comics are filled with tons of characters who are neither abstracts nor reality warpers yet are more powerful than they are - pre-Crisis Superman, who would absolutely destroy Phoenix, Galactus, Eternity, etc, is my favorite example, but there are many others. The fact a character can transmute ordinary matter doesn't mean a character can transmute invulnerable matter or drain the energy out of invulnerable matter. Abstracts and the like are more flexible, but not automatically more powerful, than other tremendously powerful characters. And Superman, in particular, has resisted mind control and transmutation zillions of times. So, no, Phoenix can not just automatically transmute Superman, or even less powerful characters like the Shazams or Dr Fate or GL.

Now, I do not think that sundipped Superman would necessarily beat the multiversal version of Phoenix, although he might - PIS turned off, pre-COIE Earth 1 Superman, or Kal-L, would destroy it, and modern Superman was for one brief moment able to hang with them - but of the many Dark Phoenix showings I've read I can't recall a single one where she showed herself to be more than a universal threat, at Galactus level plus or minus a little bit. And while Dark Phoenix is more powerful than the rest of the team, with Hal Jordan, 3 other GL's, Dr. Fate, Jonzz, the Shazam empowered characters, and Zatanna in play, the team has the TP and transformation resistance to avoid auto-loss, and the muscle to slow her down long enough for Superman to sundip and become physically superior to the universal-level Phoenix.

Justice ligue wins in a hard fight but wins... well MMH will be the first in die jajajaja

I still give it to dp

@precrisisflea: this is so sad.... You sound like you trolling but I hope it's that you horribly misinformed

I can't believe alot of people are still missing this point... DARK PHOENIX was never JEAN GREY. Dark Phoenix is just a persona of Jean Grey!!!! Kinda frustrating that a thread that is 3 years old and the same context about who is Dark Phoenix is still being questioned. Please read the story arc....we even have Dark Phoenix character profile here in comic vine do check it out. Until it is retconned it is still the holding truth of who is truly Dark Phoenix.

@thanosii: Comic book reality doesn't bend over backwards and break it's back just because some folks on Comicvine decided abstracts and reality alterers are top of the heap.

They are not the top of the heap.

Did you know that, pre-COIE, Superman once invented created an alternate reality in order to teach two kids a moral lesson? All it took was a trivial combination of super speed, super strength, and super science.

It's true. It's in a "the super-sons" issue of World's Finest. I'm betting that pre-COIE Krypto could annihilate most of the characters you consider powerful.

Now, of course, sundipped Superman is not pre-COIE Superman. But greater than Imperiex, greater than Worlogog, able to hang with Kal-L and SBP = too raw for MU.

This is wrong in so many ways. 1) Silver Age Superman isn't beating Galactus, Eternity and Death. All of them are above him. And turning PIS off, its just overkill from Eternity's part, since he suffers from jobbing hard and yet considered one of the most powerful cosmic entities.

2) Silver Age feats are no longer canon, and bringing that utterly ridiculous Superman is irrelevant. He's not here, and can't be used. Superman can be considered a low herald... since he doesn't have the versatility of power of cosmic to compete with high heralds.

Imperiex stomps any version of Superman, even Superman Prime One Million since he's featless. And assuming just a few characters of DC its too raw for MU you're biased and know next to nothing of what you're talking about. Do some research for f*ck sakes.

Dark Phoenix stills wins!!!!! YEA!!!!

@ghostravage: I have read comics for 30 years + and have no doubt my knowledge of pre-COIE Superman continuity is as good as that of anyone on this board. Silver Age or Bronze Age SUperman would annihilate Imperiex. Or Galactus. SUperman Prime One Million is NOT the most powerful version of Superman. Have you ever read Crisis? Have you read a comic book from before 1986?

Low herald. My god. Don't drink the Kool Aid. Versatility does not equal power.

Look, no offence, but:

1) You don't succeed in making any arguments

2) When you try to make an argument, all you do is repeat the wrong things posted by many fans on this site for years and years. I can see how these things snowball, but, reality is different.

Silver Age feats are relevant, and can be used here, because modern Superman encountered 2 characters with the SA/BA power set, Kal-L and Prime.

I don't mind a friendly argument, but, if you would like me to take you seriously, you should be a little more polite, and not just parrot common errors - high heralds this, celestial trinity that - and expect me to be impressed.

Pre-COIE Kryptonians had infinite physical power. Abstracts, high, low, or in-between, don't. Put to a contest, versatility won't save them. Modern Superman's high-level feats include hanging with Kal-L, and with Superboy Prime, both of whom would stomp Dark Phoenix. His everyday showing would lose, but his best showing, or his sundipped version, solos.

Dp wins

@adhd_assassin:

Welcome to the 'Vine! I do think that there is far too much firepower on the DC side for DP to win this, however. She is extremely powerful and versitile. But many of the DC members can either duplicate or nullify anything she could do here. Neither side stomps, but DC has way more than enough powerhouses to at least make her retreat into space to terrorize someone elses planet, if not defeat (as opposed to destroy her completely) outright.

@adhd_assassin: @heraldofganthet: They in now way can fully destroy the phoenix. An im with adhd DP wins

@magnificentstorm: They in now way can fully destroy the phoenix. An im with adhd DP wins

I agree with this, and have illuminated this point in an earlier posting in this very thread. " Destroying her/it outright would be a nigh-impossibility due to its very nature. IMO." This is why I said in the post immediately above this one "(as opposed to destroy her completely). Very important detail. I think that the combination of (for starters) the Spectre, Dr. Fate, Lord Marvel, Monarch, Ion, Alan Scott, etc. is more than enough to win this due to the fact that anything she can do, many of them can also do. Or undo. They can and should defeat her, or force her to flee our solar system, which would also count as a victory for them.

@heraldofganthet: I dont think they could make her flee the Phoenix would rather take her an the universes life then make another before she runs. An Dr.Fate is out the Phoenix has been shown to be able to beat powerful magic.

With no personal ties an feelings to stop her like Jean theres nothing Stopping her from going all out.

@magnificentstorm: An Dr.Fate is out the Phoenix has been shown to be able to beat powerful magic.

Yes, I remember you or someone else saying that she withstood an alien sorcerer. I don't know anything about that outside of what you've previously mentioned. I can't believe that he (the alien) was more powerful than the combined power of the Lords of Order empowered Dr. Fate, the living embodiment of the Starheart, the Skyfather level magics of Shazam (via Lord Marvel), and/or the Spectre itself. The fact that the Phoenix Force is a cosmic force should (at least in theory) bind her to the laws of physics. But that's another story for another thread I suppose. I haven't even mentioned the other cosmics that are also in this fight making her life a living hell. And Heaven help her if Mr. Terrific asks Jakeem Thunder to borrow his pen for a minute. There is a lot of power here. On both sides. I just think that the DC side not only has the firepower, but they also have the sense of urgency to protect what's theirs. You are going to fight much harder to protect what's yours, out of necessity, regardless of your resources and/or power level(s). And the DC side is bringing a lot of both to this fight. Though as you mentioned earlier, no doomsday devices can be deployed due to the lack of prep. Good call on that one.

to be fair you haven't proved that flash can speed steal her and you failed to explain how any one in the post can stop her phoenix is the avatar/force of life and death she creates life she ends life she can end time or start it she can alter reality and time flash powers are based on speed meaning if some one can alter time he is gonna lose and even if he can speed steal her (which is not a proven thing since he has never done this to cosmic level beings with her type of power but if he can do it its still a non factor cuz speed steal stops the person from moving well not really it slows the person down to the point that they are like a statue they can still think in real time just cant move that being said phoenix is a cosmic being who relies on her mind not her body and she can still alter reality with that unless you can find a telepath up to her level then she wins this hands down (i already know one that can contend with her but sadly for you he isn't in dc onslauht can duke it out with her maybe) but as said its dc vs phoenix do you have any one on onslaughts level at least no i didnt thinks so phoenix wins by default

@heraldofganthet: I dont believe the OP stated that the DC characters would be at their most powerful. An not to say the magic was as powerful as the Starheart an Fate an Shazams magic combined. But it must have been powerful to completely stop rebirth on a planet. An does the spectre really use magic?

An I dont think the Phoenix is bound by the laws of physics being thw being that created earth-616 i dont think she would. An she escaped from The Markkan crystal which was said to be impossible for any.

An I do agree with you on the fire power the phoenix will Have some serious problems there. But when you look back the phoenix really has never been killed with out jean forcing it.

An im not familiar with Mr.Terrific

An thank you very much!!!!

Justice League. Honestly it is kinda of hopeless for her. What are her speed feats? Literally half of the Justice League moves at at least light speed. Why do you think she is a match for them? You can't beat what you can't react to, hit, see, hear, or really process in any way, shape, or form. I can see her taking down Green Lantern, Batman, Green Arrow, maybe Wonder Woman? But they have some rally heavy hitters. Like Superman who happens to be immune to telepathy because of his stasis field! Martian manhunter who is a powerful telepath (not as good as Phoenix though) and Lord Marvel who is resistant because of the wisdom of Solomon! Phoenix does not come out of this alive.