#101 Posted by darklord_apoc (1346 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: I don't understand what you're saying. Electrons are in everything. He's not stealing her molecules or something, she still has them and she's still there. She's just motionless. Even her thoughts would cease (Neurons being basically bundled Electrons). I could agree with stalemate I guess

So you believe the Flash can beat Galactus??

#102 Edited by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys seem to forget he has, Alan Scott Starheart, Monarch, ION Kyle, Zatanna and Spectre helping. I don't see her winning this.

#103 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Uh thats because both the phoenix an Jean were destroyed. Un like here where your stealing the kinetic energy from jeans body you're not destroying anything so the Phoenix but still be there so again I've stalemated the speed force

#104 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@darklord_apoc: it's possible. Depends on the scenario. Just because you can defeat or stalemate someone doesn't make you more powerful. That's not my implication. Wally can steal/lend kinetic energy. He's stolen it from an entire planet before. Just because someone's more powerful doesn't make them immune to powers. In this particular case, West has the power to steal speed from whatever he wants.

#105 Edited by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: I didnt see spectre which picture is he in?

#106 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: Its only the people who are in the picture...

#107 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: the Phoenix force wasn't destroyed Jean was. It did nothing after that. Rendering your opponent helpless is a win.

#108 Edited by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Yea they Both were but the phoenix is endless in its rebirths which takes time or why would the phoenix still.come back for jean an other host.

An again u cant compare those. 1) this was a weapon used to directly destroyed the Phoenix and yours is taking away some buddies kinetic energy those are two different things an jean again is not getting destroy just frozen essentially 2) Jean stopped the phoenix from stopping the weapon so of course it didnt do anything because it was destroyed

#109 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: compare what? Jean was KOd by physical means. Wally could punch her with infinite mass. She's got no defense for the speed steal and the Phoenix force uses avatars. What feats does the Dark Phoenix have without having a host? Battle feats.

#110 Edited by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm:

Look over Big Bardas head.

@ghostravage

ION Kyle is there. Alan Scott starheart is there. Zatanna is under Hal. And Monarch is next to Guy.

#111 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: Was about to ask for Spectre but i preferred to tell you only the people in the picture.

#112 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: OMG compare how the phoenix being destroyed by the weapon to Wally stealing her speed. Yea but what gives.the avatars their powers? Oh u said the phoenix thought so. An a great feat is creating earth-616 i mean to create an entire.universe is pretty big.

But honestly we can continue this tomorrow if you would like because I am very sleepy

#113 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio
#114 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
#115 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm:

No. Wally West with the full power of the Cyrottak+Full control over the speed force stomps about everything.

  • He can't be BFRd while he can BFR others.
  • No-one can steal his speed while he'd moving + he's backed up by the speed force.
  • He cna pucnh through realities and give IMPs
  • He can kill people with a few punches but he himself can't be hurt.

I just needed to point out the inaccuracies of with this argument.

the Cyrottak Gem, it would be completely useless in this situation. Juggernaut Had the Gem ripped from him by Onslaught and was BFR!. In terms of Psionic power Onslaught is far below the Phoenix on a given day because she is the physical representation of all psionic energy that will ever exist. She also has a better control of the electromagnetic spectrum then Magneto, and can warp universes with her telekinesis by affecting every atom in a universe at once. She would literally manipulate time and rip the gem from him making him powerless. Then wreck him badly. There is nothing the flash could do to a bloodlusted DP.

#116 Edited by TheTrollDance (172 posts) - - Show Bio

Declaimer: I have not read a single Flash issue and all I know about Flash and the Speed Force is derived from the Battles forum, so I might be a bit misinformed.

That being said, why the hell should Speed Stealing have ANY effect at all? Losing your kinetic energy would only mean that you'd stop moving, what is there to stop you from converting more energy to kinetic energy right after getting your speed stolen? Oh, so Flash can Speed Steal on a subatomic level? Who the hell cares, the forces that apply between subatomic particles are enough to re-accelerate them in no time. Also, when it comes to punches, it's more about momentum and mechanical energy than about F=ma, and that is just classical mechanics, in modern physics, if a particle's speed gets close to the speed of light, it gains a significant amount of mass, which explains the whole "infinite-mass punch" a lot better than saying F=ma. However, in order for an object to MOVE at the speed of light (like Flash can), it needs to be massless, thus throwing the "infinite-MASS punch" to the trash. This is why you shouldn't involve physics when it comes to character who can move at x times the speed of light or Speed Steal their way to victory.

Now for the sake of argument let's say that Speed Steal is NOT complete BS, and assume that it is capable of KOing opponents. As some have already mentioned, what's to stop DP from generating more kinetic energy to hold Flash at bay while mind-raping him, rendering him useless?

There's another good argument in this thread regarding Flash speed stealing DP: If he can speed-steal DP, then does that mean he can also speed-steal other cosmic level entities? And why stop there? If he can speed-steal them, surely he can also speed steel LT and TOAA/Presence, right? I mean, obviously they're infinitely more powerful than him, but long as he speed-steals before they get a chance to do anything, Flash wins, right? So basically, going by your logic, Flash>any character, no matter how powerful, and that's the pure definition of fanboyism.

#117 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio
#118 Posted by darklord_apoc (1346 posts) - - Show Bio

When Phx got destroyed that was PIS because they had to come up with a way to defeat a character with that much power, so they used a weapon in the Dark Phx arc..... When has Flash speed stole from a cosmic being who is both life and death?? Even if he got close to her she has pure psi energy all around her that would turn him into ash.... Her power is from the life force of the universe itself, so the JL is not going to win here!! If Flash can do all that then why didn't he do it to Darkseid or Imperix? Or Trigon for that matter? They would not need a J.L, only the Flash if he can do all that to a great extent!!

#119 Posted by BarryAllen_Shazam (31 posts) - - Show Bio

Jla

#120 Posted by DigitalShooter9 (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Jla wins........

They have batman......

Jk, jla would still win though

Flash ftw.

#121 Edited by comic_book_fan (5576 posts) - - Show Bio

@zoom:

she was more powerful than a phoenix that cut gladiator in half with one hand granted this was in x-men the end.

and in end song the phoenix hosts showed the ability to heal at will.

and she feeds off of stars and ignores black holes like they are nothing and none of them are really any faster she wins

#122 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
#123 Edited by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1:

Actually nothing I said was inaccurate.

the Cyrottak Gem, it would be completely useless in this situation. Juggernaut Had the Gem ripped from him by Onslaught and was BFR!

  1. As in physical contact? With full control of the Speed Force I'm pretty sure you'd be omnipresent.
  2. You said he had the gem taken away from him THEN BFRd, but if he did have the gem how would that be possible?

Also we have yet to seen the FULL power of the speed force. No one actually has all of the abilities when it comes to the speed force so there might be even more powerful powers given and Trion Juggernaut was able to punch through realitiies and dimentions. And we have never seen him with the full Cyttorak power. Him with 100% of the Cyttorak power is basically Cyttorak.

#124 Posted by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetrolldance:

There's another good argument in this thread regarding Flash speed stealing DP: If he can speed-steal DP, then does that mean he can also speed-steal other cosmic level entities? And why stop there? If he can speed-steal them, surely he can also speed steel LT and TOAA/Presence, right? I mean, obviously they're infinitely more powerful than him, but long as he speed-steals before they get a chance to do anything, Flash wins, right? So basically, going by your logic, Flash>any character, no matter how powerful, and that's the pure definition of fanboyism.

TOAA and Presesne? No one says that. Both of these guys are Omnipotent meaning that they have unlimited power so speed stealing wouldn't work.

Now for the sake of argument let's say that Speed Steal is NOT complete BS, and assume that it is capable of KOing opponents. As some have already mentioned, what's to stop DP from generating more kinetic energy to hold Flash at bay while mind-raping him, rendering him useless?

You said for the sake of the arguement lets assume he can speed steal, which I've already stated before.

  1. He brain would be slowed down so it would be harder for he to actually generate more kinetic energy
  2. You also have Jay in that picture who can speed steal also. The fact that you said "....hold Flash at bay" means that it was effecient right? I'll also include that he mind would work slower also so it would be hard for "ming raping" since he can increase his thoughts. Now back to holding him at Bay. Since you have Jay, who can also speed steal, wouldn't thet overcome Dark Pheonix?

That being said, why the hell should Speed Stealing have ANY effect at all? Losing your kinetic energy would only mean that you'd stop moving, what is there to stop you from converting more energy to kinetic energy right after getting your speed stolen? Oh, so Flash can Speed Steal on a subatomic level? Who the hell cares, the forces that apply between subatomic particles are enough to re-accelerate them in no time.

Already addressed the flaws in this theory about her generating more in no time. I'll state again, your brain would have to process whats going on. Flash already stole her energy so her brain is working much slower and in order for her to generate more energy her brain would have to tell her to do so. So generating more energy would have to take time.

#125 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

This would be a pay-per-view level situation, were this ever to be published. That said,

  • With the combined magical powers of Dr. Fate, Alan Scott, Lord Marvel, Zauriel, Aztek, Zatanna, and Blue Devil (I think I saw him..),
  • The combined cosmic powers of Firestorm, several Green Lanterns, Ion Kyle Rayner, Captain Atom, Orion, Barda, Mr Miracle (who may or may not have the ALE in this battle), and the Ray
  • The combined technological and/or brain power of Dr. John Henry Irons (Steel, who among other things, created the Core of Solaris), Batman, Dr. Light (Kimyo Hoshi), Mr. Terrific, The Atom (Ray Palmer), Red Tornado's true form (as a Wind Elemenal), and Cyborg

I'm sure that I missed someone (some people). However, with the multi-faceted powerhouses I've listed above (not to mention the folks I may have forgotten) they should be able to defeat or at the very least stalemate the Dark Phoenix. If Tony Stark and Hank Pym can build and sucessfully fire their "Anti-Phoenix Gun", then all these headbusters should be able to cook up something as well.

#126 Posted by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet:

I'm pretty sure people know Pheonix loeses here lol, just wondering if she can be speed stolen.

#127 Posted by TheTrollDance (172 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetrolldance:

There's another good argument in this thread regarding Flash speed stealing DP: If he can speed-steal DP, then does that mean he can also speed-steal other cosmic level entities? And why stop there? If he can speed-steal them, surely he can also speed steel LT and TOAA/Presence, right? I mean, obviously they're infinitely more powerful than him, but long as he speed-steals before they get a chance to do anything, Flash wins, right? So basically, going by your logic, Flash>any character, no matter how powerful, and that's the pure definition of fanboyism.

TOAA and Presesne? No one says that. Both of these guys are Omnipotent meaning that they have unlimited power so speed stealing wouldn't work.

Now for the sake of argument let's say that Speed Steal is NOT complete BS, and assume that it is capable of KOing opponents. As some have already mentioned, what's to stop DP from generating more kinetic energy to hold Flash at bay while mind-raping him, rendering him useless?

You said for the sake of the arguement lets assume he can speed steal, which I've already stated before.

  1. He brain would be slowed down so it would be harder for he to actually generate more kinetic energy
  2. You also have Jay in that picture who can speed steal also. The fact that you said "....hold Flash at bay" means that it was effecient right? I'll also include that he mind would work slower also so it would be hard for "ming raping" since he can increase his thoughts. Now back to holding him at Bay. Since you have Jay, who can also speed steal, wouldn't thet overcome Dark Pheonix?

That being said, why the hell should Speed Stealing have ANY effect at all? Losing your kinetic energy would only mean that you'd stop moving, what is there to stop you from converting more energy to kinetic energy right after getting your speed stolen? Oh, so Flash can Speed Steal on a subatomic level? Who the hell cares, the forces that apply between subatomic particles are enough to re-accelerate them in no time.

Already addressed the flaws in this theory about her generating more in no time. I'll state again, your brain would have to process whats going on. Flash already stole her energy so her brain is working much slower and in order for her to generate more energy her brain would have to tell her to do so. So generating more energy would have to take time.

I'm only going to address the parts of your comment that talk about speed stealing affecting her brain - your brain works on electricity. The EM field inside your brain can instantly re-accelerate the particles whose kinetic energy was "stolen". Unless Flash is also secretly Magneto and can manipulate the EM field, there's nothing he can do about it.

#128 Posted by spiderbuck (2452 posts) - - Show Bio

DP stomps.

#129 Posted by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetrolldance:

So what you're saying his he can speed up peoples brains so they can think faster but he can't slow it down......? You said "re-accelerate" so wouldn't that mean it actually takes time?

Your brain tells your hand to move or your legs to run. If I slow that down shouldn't that means I slowed down your brain also? Because your brain should recognize your body is moving slower and speed itselt up.

#130 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck:DP stomps.

You don't think that the team I spelled out can do anything to stop/slow down/stalemate Dark Phoenix? At all? Stark and Pym (on a wing and a prayer) threw a serious monkey wrench into the Phoenix Force proper. You don't think that an actual Angel, all those sorcerors, high level cosmics, reality warpers, and superbrains (not to mention Mr. Miracle, who could have the Anti-Life Equation here) can win? If you do that's cool, I'd just like for you to school me as to why you think that.

@wardemon32: I'm pretty sure people know Pheonix loeses here lol, just wondering if she can be speed stolen.

That is a possibility I'd never considered. He might only get one chance, though. IF it even works..

#131 Posted by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

She's not winning the first one and deff not the second one with all of them added up.

#132 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: actually Walter West (an alternate Universe evil Wally West) used the speed lend to speed up the neurons in a rogues brain that fried it. The rogue layed comatose drooling as Walter ran off. But there's no reason he couldn't slowdown or speedup anything he wanted to. The EM field has nothing to do with it. Kinetic Energy is in anything with motion. It is the motion. Think about it like Wally cutting off your physical means to function. Electrons are subatomic particles in atoms and molecules in all things. It's just his power it doesn't have to make sense? Superman has telekinesis that allows him to move mountains without them crumbling. It's just the way it is. The physics behind something are a blueprint. Wally's powers were detailed with physics terms, "infinite mass is requires to travel speed of light" - speedforce controls it. In order to Concede the Flash loses we'd have to ignore his powerset completely and accept DP's imaginary immunity.

@magnificentstorm: I know it. This is never going to end well.

#133 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: I.have said it like 539376392772 times , its not jean that while create more kinetic energy but the phoenix its self. The phoenix will protect jean with everything it has. Do u get what i meant now

#134 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio
#135 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
#136 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio
#137 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
#138 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio
#139 Edited by OhItsThatGuy (791 posts) - - Show Bio

EDIT: Phoenix wins

#140 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio
#141 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

Obviously, there's something missing in this entire argument... Where are the scans where Flash speedsteals reality warpers... Or anybody on DP's tier? The thing is how is he going to speedsteal someone who can control the reality and time at will? She may alter the speedforce itself... That's what Reality Warpers do... They alter, manipulate, change, create, erase things without being limited by physics laws but its mind... And Phoenix being a primordial force in the Marvel-Verse i see no limit on her... Damn it, Galactus is afraid of the Phoenix Force... he always have said it... Do you think Flash would be able to affect Cosmic Entities which reality warping is WAY above human comprehension? I don't think so... Unless, you show some scans of him doing it. Like i asked and was totally ignored.

#142 Posted by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01:

Yea I already knwo about Waler West, he's the one that taught Wally in the first place.

@magnificentstorm

Does it matter if Jean or the Pheonix force creates more kinetic energy? And its getting stolen from two people.

And she's not winning. You honestly think she can beat ION Kyle, Spectre, Zatanna, Alan Scott Starheart, Martian Manhunter, , and Monarch all at the same time?

And then since she wins the first according to yuo we can still add Phantom Stranger and Dr. Fate and tehy still lose?

@ghostravage

So how does being able to control reality and time effect you being speed stolen. there's not a lot of reality warpers on DC that FLash really faces for him to speed steal but thats no reason to belive she can't be speed stolen. Any proof saying she cant? And what is she going to do to the speed force?

#143 Posted by GhostRavage (8855 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: Gotta go, but ill counter that... See ya later.

#144 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: The phoenix is not a person she is an entity. An i doubt the phoenix is made of molecules but the cosmic energy of life an death im.doubting the speed force can affect the phoenix itself

#145 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32:

I didn't even see Monarch at first. I knew I forgot somebody! That said, with his power added to my list of heroes, I don't see how they DON'T force her to retreat/stalemate her/or dissipate her essence. Especially since in her own universe, Stark and Pym collaborated to and acomplished just that (scattering her/its power that is).

#146 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: That was the phoenix its self with out an avatar so that was different an its not like they defeated the phoenix.

#147 Posted by Wardemon32 (4149 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm:

Where did I say it was a person? And how can it not be made out of molecules? What else could it be made of? Either way with or without Flash she loses.

#148 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3383 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: That was the phoenix its self with out an avatar so that was different an its not like they defeated the phoenix.

Understood. My point was that they (Stark and Pym) pulled off a "Hail Mary" so to speak by splitting the Force into fragments, thus making it slightly more managable to deal with. A mortal host can be manipulated to varying degrees of success (just ask Mastermind, for example), so that's also a possibility. All I'm saying is that while the Dark Phoenix is certainly a threat not to be taken lightly, the combined forces of magic/supernaturals, heavy duty cosmics, super geniuses, reality warpers, and Mr. Miracle (who might have the ALE here) gathered together should be more than enough to deal with her/it. If nothing else to scare her/it off and send her/it fleeing elsewhere.

#149 Edited by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

Dark Phoenix was not the whole force more like 73 percent of it, that said she fought galactus to a stand still. She could easily mind rape/ control everybody here at the same time, it's how powerful her tp is

#150 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1388 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: um u just did u said he was stealing speed from 2 people. An I doubt the.phoenix is because its the phoenix a Cosmic Entity. An nah dark phoenix has actually never been defeated without jeans help an in this fight jean has no ties an.nothing to have her stop an think about her actions