#51 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: she's been KO'd before. The feats you gave are irrelevant. In any event there's absolutely no evidence that she could avoid getting her speed stolen. She loses by default.

#52 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: She of course can be hurt by physical force to an extent She has never been killed by physical means.

An I think a reality warper like phoenix could get out of that. An even if the phoenix did leave her which i doubt she would. They would definitely DIE. The phoenix can fight with out a host an knowing the phoenix she would take control of the next most powerful hero for her to.fight in. Then what?

#53 Posted by GhostRavage (8962 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: FINALLY! A counter for Speedforce! YAY! Im going to buy some cigarettes and dominican beer!

#54 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: the Phoenix can't die and I didn't say it could, it needs a host to manifest its true power. I am not seeing your argument? Wally stands there and allows the her to go offensive? I don't think so. She's not no reaction feats and the battle is between them and the Dark Phoenix. He'll KO jean or steal her speed. It's that simple.

#55 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Yea but shes never been beatin with physical force. An since when? An like I said the phoenix could make wally its avatar an fix things if needed.be but I doubt because again the phoenix is A reality warper.

#56 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: she used a kree canon to commit suicide. The host can be killed. I'm operating under the notion that if Jean is downed the fights over. I am not saying you're wrong but could you post a scan of her warping reality? It's not important really because she wouldn't be able to before he stole her kinetic energy. But it's just for my collection

#57 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio
#58 Edited by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: im on my phone but easy one would be AVX where Colossus use the Phoenix power to give Wales wings or legs I forgot. Yea thats a kree weapon that is much more powerful that any punch(s) from wally. An aslo another would be the in endsong where the phoenix brung jean back to lie when she decomposing. Also a bigger one would be win Magik brought part of limbo to earth bringing one dimension to another is big.

#59 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

I'm confused as to why speed stealing wouldn't work, can you break it down or something?

#60 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio
#61 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: she's been KO'd before. The feats you gave are irrelevant. In any event there's absolutely no evidence that she could avoid getting her speed stolen. She loses by default.

You shown no evidence of Speed Stealing being possible on a cosmic entity. She wins by default.

@cadencev2: FINALLY! A counter for Speedforce! YAY! Im going to buy some cigarettes and dominican beer!

In drinking right meow!

@magnificentstorm: she used a kree canon to commit suicide. The host can be killed. I'm operating under the notion that if Jean is downed the fights over. I am not saying you're wrong but could you post a scan of her warping reality? It's not important really because she wouldn't be able to before he stole her kinetic energy. But it's just for my collection

OH MY GOD WHAT GREAT COUNT.... no wait, this was a fail argument too.

The Kree Cannon only worked cause Jean let it. So how is it relevant to Dark phoenix here who does not wish to be destroyed?

#62 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm:

No. Wally West with the full power of the Cyrottak+Full control over the speed force stomps about everything.

  • He can't be BFRd while he can BFR others.
  • No-one can steal his speed while he'd moving + he's backed up by the speed force.
  • He cna pucnh through realities and give IMPs
  • He can kill people with a few punches but he himself can't be hurt.

#63 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Well because theirs not a lot of cosmic beings in DC to do that. But whats your case? She would be to powerful or something for he speed not to be stolen? The way I see it as if you have energy and Flash has the power to take it away... it gets taken away.

Any proof showing that a cosmic entitiy can't have their energy taken?

#64 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Well because theirs not a lot of cosmic beings in DC to do that. But whats your case? She would be to powerful or something for he speed not to be stolen? The way I see it as if you have energy and Flash has the power to take it away... it gets taken away.

Any proof showing that a cosmic entitiy can't have their energy taken?

How about the fact they generate Cosmic power to be used in any way they see fit....... Phoenixes have shown reality warping / molecule manipulation, and I do not see how you can steal speed when they can create more. Hell Phoenix has reversed time many times, what the heck Flash Speed Stealing if she counters it with time reversal!

Flash fans have no case here.

#65 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: I would kill myself lol if that was made.

An no Classic Dr.Strange being an avatar for the phoenix would be amazing.

#66 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: Wally's stolen Kinetic energy from subatomic particles (electrons) on more than one occasion and even entire planets before. There's no reason he couldn't steal Jeans speed, bfr body parts into the speedforce and claim the win before the DP even gets a chance to blink.

@magnificentstorm: im on my phone too and the altering life when you're called the "fires of creation" isn't a reality warping feat. And no. Being physically KOd was the issue. Wally uses an infinite mass punch which he could deliver by the millions per second, literally. It breaks down like this force (f) = mass (m) x acceleration (a). Technically speaking he could hit as hard as any physical force in the universe. Wally's got the powerset to incapacitate the host before the Phoenix could utilize its arsenal of attacks. Its that simple.

You'd have to prove the Jean as DP is immune to the speed steal. Then that Jean as DP has attosecond reaction time. Then that Jean as the DP is invulnerable to physical harm. In which case I would glady concede.

#67 Posted by GhostRavage (8962 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Its really sad how useless becomes any team member when Flash is on their team... Not to mention, according to general statistics Flash can beat White Phoenix of the Crown by speedstealing. *Drinking for you bro, keep defending us against Speed*

#68 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: cosmic powered has nothing to do with it. He steals kinetic energy from electrons. Jean is the physical manifestation of the force. What's so hard to understand? The ONLY way it wouldn't work is if she started the battle as an non-corporeal entity ad attacked the justice league solely on the astral plane. Which Wally would again be immune to. The onus is on you. He's done damage to more powerful beings that the Dark Phoenix.

#69 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Well a Flash can get his speed stolen even if he's backed by the Speed Force(Which sounds retarded to me). So shouldn't that go both ways? She ca generate more but if its constantly stolen it would be corssed out wouldn't it?

@supermanwithatan01

Thats what I was thinking.

@ghostravage

No one said the others were useless. Just wonderign if he can speed steal or not sicne that would be the easiest win. Even if he couldn't they should still be able to win.

#70 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Its really sad how useless becomes any team member when Flash is on their team... Not to mention, according to general statistics Flash can beat White Phoenix of the Crown by speedstealing. *Drinking for you bro, keep defending us against Speed*

Flash Fanboys have no case half the time against anything that can create something from nothing. That is the problem, you cannot take away Speed when character in question can make it.

@cadencev2: cosmic powered has nothing to do with it. He steals kinetic energy from electrons. Jean is the physical manifestation of the force. What's so hard to understand? The ONLY way it wouldn't work is if she started the battle as an non-corporeal entity ad attacked the justice league solely on the astral plane. Which Wally would again be immune to. The onus is on you. He's done damage to more powerful beings that the Dark Phoenix.

This is a joke lol. Your bringing Science to a being of the collection of the Universe Past and Future Life Force. Who has Flash beaten more powerful than Phoenix. Superboy Prime?

You have no case. Nect you will say Flash can beat Galactus. Or Odin. Or Beyonder.

Get real.

@cadencev2:

Well a Flash can get his speed stolen even if he's backed by the Speed Force(Which sounds retarded to me). So shouldn't that go both ways? She ca generate more but if its constantly stolen it would be corssed out wouldn't it?

You bring a logical case and very well be, however can Flash resist mind raping of a universal cosmic being equal (and been shown to surpass) Galactus tier?

I do not see it.

#71 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Um.how is it not reality warping sure she commands life an death but either way that's still reality warping an also the other examples i talked about.

An to be honest i couldnt give any examples of reaction speed that I can think of. But as I said the phoenix could easily leave her body an kill wally or while in jeans body warp reality to create kinetic energy to give to jean (thats a good one )

#72 Posted by chiq (1962 posts) - - Show Bio

Could Wally speed steal Galactus? honest question...what are the limits to speed stealing on these forums?

#73 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@wardemon32: I know. If order for Jean to win we simply have to ignore the Wally's power because people don't like it. They ignore logic and apply platitudes of "he can't" throughout the thread. There's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work on her. If I have a regular gun and I'm fighting someone with a nuclear bomb and I incapacitate him before he can set the bomb off then I win. No ones even challenged the power of DP Jean, all were saying is that she has no immunity to the speed steal and no reaction timing close to being able to go on the offense. Brace yourself for a plethora of "she wins" posts.

#74 Posted by GhostRavage (8962 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq: Apparently... None... Even TOAA and Presence fall to the Speedforce.

#75 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Well I gave u a counter. If speed steal steals The kinetic energy from molecules then cant she just create some to apply to her host?

#76 Edited by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

You bring a logical case and very well be, however can Flash resist mind raping of a universal cosmic being equal (and been shown to surpass) Galactus tier?

I do not see it.

Thanks for the compliment, I'm not the type of Flash fanboy to sit there and say "FLASH CAN SPEED STEAL ANYONE BECAUSE HE DID IT TO A BULLET!"

And about the mind raping part, if her brain can't work as fast as Flash then I don't see it happening since he can increase his thoughts. Or Flash could speed lend to everyone making their thoughts faster also if he sees people getting taken over from left to right. And you have

  • Martian Manhunter
  • Aquaman
  • Alan Scott
  • Is that spectre back there?

Who should help in the TP or possesing department. Including the fact that Flash could speed up everyones brains giving them an edge.

There's also Monarch who has matter manipualtion, and is that ION Kyle? Also there's Jay who could also help with speed stealing(if its possible) making the process quicker, and since you say that she can generate it again(Which should take time since her brain is slowed down) you have another person keeping that energy down by the second.

#77 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: the CoiE Anti Monitor was on the ropes. He's > Dark Phoenix. You're just ignoring what I'm saying because you can't provide proof that she's immune. He has the power to do so. You cant ignore something Wally did for 15 years to anything he attempted it on. You've provided nothing of consequence.

#78 Edited by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

Where did this happen? That's retarded considering the fact that their both omnipontent, omniscience, and omniscience. I've never seen someone say Speed Force>TOAA or Presesnce.

Link to this?

@supermanwithatan01

You have a point

#79 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: By then she's lost the fight. Stealing her speed renders her a statue, the Phoenix' would have to move on to a new host. Kinetic energy is just a fancy phrase for motion.

#80 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

Would the Loebforce > the speedforce?

#81 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: No she would again the phoenix does not need a.host to use its powers. An the phoenix can still do thinks while in a host body it become a part of them.in a sense not totally absorbed. An i know what kinetic energy but the phoenix could if u want to put it scientifically the Phoenix could just move jeans molecules for her or kind of should I say re-start them

#82 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: the the Phoenix would do this faster than the flash incapacitated her?

#83 Posted by GhostRavage (8962 posts) - - Show Bio

@world_breaker_elmo: Stalemate, and it will create a vortex of time continuity of cosmic proportions where Color Kid and Arm Fall Off Boy would become TOAA and Presence respectively and a new comic industry will appear named "Colorful Arm Kid comics"

#84 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: the CoiE Anti Monitor was on the ropes. He's > Dark Phoenix. You're just ignoring what I'm saying because you can't provide proof that she's immune. He has the power to do so. You cant ignore something Wally did for 15 years to anything he attempted it on. You've provided nothing of consequence.

And you still provided no proof Flash could Speed Steal the sum of all Life in Universe and Time. None, whatsoever, also many had a role in beating Anti Monitor. Super Men sure had a role in it as well.

So I guess you do truly belive Flash > Galactus, Eternity, Death, Phoenix, In betweener, and the rest.

That is fanboy at its finest.

@magnificentstorm: By then she's lost the fight. Stealing her speed renders her a statue, the Phoenix' would have to move on to a new host. Kinetic energy is just a fancy phrase for motion.

Except Cosmic Beings can create Speed if they wanted to or reverse time like Phoenix has. Also what keeps Wally being Mind Raped again? How is he faster than Phoenix who can travel across the Universe in a 20 (Longest time to talk average) second sentence?

What does Flash do when Phoenix Eats the star first as a opener move or stays in space or a million other possibilities.

Its just sad seeing "Speed Steal" as a legit answer to this.

Would the Loebforce > the speedforce?

Indeed.

@supermanwithatan01: No she would again the phoenix does not need a.host to use its powers. An the phoenix can still do thinks while in a host body it become a part of them.in a sense not totally absorbed. An i know what kinetic energy but the phoenix could if u want to put it scientifically the Phoenix could just move jeans molecules for her or kind of should I say re-start them

Pretty much.

#85 Posted by Roddy010 (5249 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't Grodd, Trigon as well as Monitor able to effect the Flashes in mid run? I see him being no problem for DP who has omniscience and universal level telepathy. How are any of these guys going to effect her in her energy form?

#86 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio
#87 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: your argument now is that the Phoenix is faster than the flash and the speed steal won't work because Jean is immune to it without any real proof of why? That's rich. Lets ignore a characters powers to prove a point that is irrelevant. Jean has no defense for Wally and would never get a chance to go offensive. We're arguing in circles because I refuse to agree she's faster than Wally and immune to the speed steal for some reason that you have no proof over. Throwing around "fanboy" is the best argument you've made.

#88 Posted by GhostRavage (8962 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Im really curious of something now, would you be able to post Flash speedstealing or BFRing into the Speedforce someone on Dark Phoenix's caliber? Reality Warper if possible please.

#89 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

There are very few realty warpers in DC. The speed steal has nothing to do with how powerful a character is. It's just his power. He's never not been able to steal speed. Regardless of who or what he's doing it on. All he has to do is take Jean out. That's a win. I'm on my phone but I have scans of his speed stealing feats on my laptop.

#90 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Yea but I mainly countered his speed stealing power with molecule control so its really a stalemate canceling out speedforce

#91 Posted by GhostRavage (8962 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: What really bugs me is that i feel reality warpers can break free from been bfr'd to the SpeedForce since its just another dimension... Same with speedstealing, since most of high reality warpers can control time as well... And since i've never seen Flash speedstealing someone with this powerset its really hard for me to admit he would do it...

#92 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: I don't understand what you're saying. Electrons are in everything. He's not stealing her molecules or something, she still has them and she's still there. She's just motionless. Even her thoughts would cease (Neurons being basically bundled Electrons). I could agree with stalemate I guess

#93 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: think about it this way. To warp reality you have to do so with a thought process. Wally's much, much faster than that. There's no reason it wouldn't work. He's stolen speed from electrons. Everything physical has electrons. Has a mass. Because of that she is not immune.

#94 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: I know but u said he steals the kinetic energy from the molecules so the Phoenix being a reality warping or using the telekinesis will be able to move her molecules creating kinetic energy see what im sayin now?

#95 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: Im really curious of something now, would you be able to post Flash speedstealing or BFRing into the Speedforce someone on Dark Phoenix's caliber? Reality Warper if possible please.

There are very few realty warpers in DC. The speed steal has nothing to do with how powerful a character is. It's just his power. He's never not been able to steal speed. Regardless of who or what he's doing it on. All he has to do is take Jean out. That's a win. I'm on my phone but I have scans of his speed stealing feats on my laptop.

So that is a "No, I have no proof other than Flash is the Man." argument.

#96 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: What really makes me take heart is your the only person convinced of your own argument.

#97 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: I understand now. The problem is that she wouldn't have time to do that. Jean wouldn't disappear she'd still be there. If the Phoenix force basically creates her all over again the hed just do it again. Warping reality is great but it takes a thought process. She would never get the chance. I don't see what Jean could do. Recreating herself composed of new molecules would be pointless and just keep happening.

#98 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1392 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01: U keep forgetting or ignoring that the phoenix itself is inside jean an can use its powers with out her. So the phoenix would be the one warping reality to give jeans molecules kinetic energy not Jean herself therefore stalemating Wallys' speedforce

#99 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: you've made no points. I've given you reasons he could incapacitate her and you're operating under the "nuh uh" notion. Making yourself look ignorant by ignoring 1 characters feats because you disagree with why they exist. Your logic is moronic. Flash can't speed steal her because she's cosmic? That's just stupid.

#100 Edited by Supermanwithatan01 (3693 posts) - - Show Bio

@magnificentstorm: I'm not ignoring anything. The point you're making is that Wally could KO Jean but the Dark Phoenix works independently from her so it could just warp reality to protect her. When Jean was KIlled by the cannon the Phoenix didnt just recreate her and wreak havoc immediately. Most feats of the DP are hyperbole.