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#1 Posted by Dominodalek (21 posts) - - Show Bio

The Joker fights Red Skull in a city. Who wins?

  • The Battle takes place in Gotham City, with bystanders.
  • Both combatants have their standard equipment.
  • Both are their comics versions.
  • Both are In Character.
  • There is no prep time.
  • Win conditions are Death or KO.
#2 Edited by Cgoodness (6145 posts) - - Show Bio

Post WW2 red skull?

#3 Posted by mightyrearranger (1714 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd give it to Herr RedSkull without prep.

Laughing Gas needs to be inhaled/injected in some way. Dust of Death just needs to touch the target's skin.

#4 Posted by Joygirl (19955 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker stomps.

Laughing Gas needs to be inhaled/injected in some way.

Even if that were true (don't think it is) how will Johann NOT inhale it?

And Joker is immune to most toxins. Dust of Death will probably not effect him. Provided the Joker Venom doesn't work on Johann EITHER, and this comes down to h2h, Joker still wins with his arsenal of toys and fighting chops.

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#5 Posted by i_like_swords (17651 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel sorry for the guy who mistakes this as a circus brawl and whips out his camera phone

#6 Posted by mightyrearranger (1714 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

Joker stomps.

@mightyrearranger said:

Laughing Gas needs to be inhaled/injected in some way.

Even if that were true (don't think it is) how will Johann NOT inhale it?

And Joker is immune to most toxins. Dust of Death will probably not effect him. Provided the Joker Venom doesn't work on Johann EITHER, and this comes down to h2h, Joker still wins with his arsenal of toys and fighting chops.

I think (iirc) that the Laughing Venom works as a neurotoxin, whereas Dust of Death is a skin-irritant, for lack of a better term.

That being said, I remember now that in a non-canon crossover, some writer thought it'd be amusing if neither toxin worked on the other party. *facepalm*

Are you saying in a strict h-2-h, Joker could take Captain America? He's a helluva shot when armed with revolvers, but Red Skull would come armed with SMG or laser rifles in that scenario too.

I think Joker's unpredictable h-2-h style and potential to "play dead" on Red Skull may give him 3 or 4 out of 10, but I still think Johann brings more to the table.

#7 Posted by Joygirl (19955 posts) - - Show Bio

@mightyrearranger: Please don't tell me you're yet another person who thinks Joker is a sub-par hand to hand fighter. Joker may not be able to take Captain America with his shield with no equipment at all -- but in this scenario he'll have guns, gas, bombs, tricks, traps, and everything in between. That, in tandem with the fact that he is incredibly fast and even more unpredictable means he is going to win more often than lose. It'll be hard but he'll win this.

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#8 Posted by cfrehse (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker is gonna need his equipment to win this. He would lose red skull gets to him

#9 Posted by dondave (38906 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Skull

#10 Posted by mightyrearranger (1714 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl: He's only "sub-par" in the disciplined sense. His lack of true fighting training/style can be make or break in a fight. In that sense, his strength isn't in physical combat, it's in resourcefulness. I don't really see justification for what few speed showings he's had, but that's just me.

His standard EQ varies a lot, so I'd be interested in what the OP envisioned each bringing to this battle.

#11 Posted by Joygirl (19955 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by CF12793 (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Skull takes this. He's a great h2h combatant and knows several styles of martial arts. Plus is he peak human, or am I wrong on that one? Joker's weak and a sloppy fighter. I think he won against Luthor because Luthor is afraid of the Joker (although that's just my opinion). Skull has beaten men to death before with his bare hands, Joker shouldn't be that hard to do the same to.

#13 Edited by mightyrearranger (1714 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@mightyrearranger: FEW speed showings? *facepalm*

Help me @jokergeist-wan, you're my only hope.

The only speed "feat" that sticks in my mind is him dodging that one archer's arrow in Salvation Run and...well...that was Salvation Run, haha.

#14 Posted by russellmania77 (15850 posts) - - Show Bio

red skull will try and win and will be FAILING

#JOKER

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#15 Posted by karimamin (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker wins this in comedic fashion. If both are in character, then Red Skull will easily walk right into his trap and since his name isn't "Batman" he's going to get a face full of acid.

#16 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@cf12793 said:

Red Skull takes this. He's a great h2h combatant and knows several styles of martial arts. Plus is he peak human, or am I wrong on that one? Joker's weak and a sloppy fighter.

WEAK AND SLOPPY?

Whenever you see Joker fighting, your first instinct is to roll your eyes and think "There is no way in hell that this clown could go toe to toe with anyone." Then you think back to all the fights you had as a kid with your dumber peers, and how they were always the scariest people to tangle with. You were too stupid to know any better.

And that’s the case with the Joker.

Joker has a sinewy and spastic fighting style; his unpredictability mixed with his vicious streak and willingness to fight dirty has proven to be deadly-effective. He's not one to play fair, and this makes him the winner. I'll let Batman explain it as Joker DOMINATES Batgirl in a fight:

Spectator: "What's wrong with her? I thought she could beat anyone. She should be able to drop the Joker in a hot New York minute."

Batman: "Almost anyone. Batgirl reads body language. She knows what her opponents will do before they do it. She can read his, too. But the Joker's body language makes no sense."

He wins. How? By fighting dirty. Observe his fight with Lex Luthor:

And Lex is no weakling. Lex Luthor has been trained by an Amazonian warrior and is in peak physical condition.

But no matter how skilled you are, the Joker cheats to win. He Fights Dirty.

• Fighting Dirty defeats Tommy Mangles' violent fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty defeats Lex Luthor's intelligent fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty defeats Jason Todd's aggressive fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty defeats Tim Drake's fluid fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty defeats Nightwing's acrobatic fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty defeats the Creeper's maniacal fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty defeats Booster Gold's technological fighting skill.

• Fighting Dirty counteracts Batman's calculated fighting skill.

Fighting Dirty defeats Red Skull.

Sincerely,

#17 Posted by CF12793 (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: Like I mentioned in my last post, a lot of people (including Lex, Dick, Batgirl) primarily lose to the Joker because they're afraid of him. He's such a scary individual that people who know him and know him well have a hard time beating him in H2H because he intimidates them so much. If the Joker fought against Nightwing without having met each other before, who do you think would win? The only person in the DCU who isn't afraid of Joker is Batman, and Batman has won almost every fight they've had. And when he hasn't? Usually PIS or Batman was distracted/weakened. Now, why in the World would Red Skull be afraid of the Joker in a random encounter? The truth is, he wouldn't be. So the whole "I'm going to win because I'm scarier" approach isn't going to work. I'd still give it to Skull.

#18 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@cf12793: At least you acknowledge how freakin' TERRIFYING the Joker is :) You make a good point.

But you must take into consideration the Joker's insane unpredictability. You've seen how effective it is.

#19 Edited by jojjimbo (2463 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Skull

#20 Posted by doubleaa54 (215 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to say The Joker, mainly because Joker is unpredictable. How can you fight a person that you know nothing of. Joker is forever changing when it comes to battling. His gear changes all the time, his tactics change, he changes. A lot of villains/heroes are predictable when they battle, Joker is not. Red Skull is more tactical, smarter, etc; but so is Batman, and he has had his ass specially delivered to him by Joker. Even the likes of Superman was corrupted by Joker. The un-corruptible was corrupted.

#21 Posted by nickzambuto (15026 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker is a wily guy and his scrappiness makes it hard to catch him, but he's never been one for straight up confrontation. @jokergeist Those are some fantastic scans, but more often than not the context reveals that Joker only got in a lucky hit or two while someone was talking and then ran away. He's smart enough to land a few punches on guys like Batman and Dick Grayson, but if he actually stuck around to finish the battle it's not like he'd really win. Most of those scans are merely Joker distracting the good guy and then running away. Against Red Skull, a VILLAIN who is just as brutal and sadistic as the Joker is, but a helluva lot tougher, we can't really expect the clown to win.

#22 Posted by nickzambuto (15026 posts) - - Show Bio

I want to say The Joker, mainly because Joker is unpredictable. How can you fight a person that you know nothing of. Joker is forever changing when it comes to battling. His gear changes all the time, his tactics change, he changes. A lot of villains/heroes are predictable when they battle, Joker is not. Red Skull is more tactical, smarter, etc; but so is Batman, and he has had his ass specially delivered to him by Joker. Even the likes of Superman was corrupted by Joker. The un-corruptible was corrupted.

When?

#23 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Um. None of my scans showed Joker running away >.<

Against Red Skull, a VILLAIN who is just as brutal and sadistic as the Joker is

Do you know of any sadistic/evil feats for Red Skull? I'm just curious :)

The Joker doesn't need to finish the fight. He simply Joy Buzzes his opponent, stopping his heartbeat. Or melts his face with acid. Or poisons him, leaving him to die laughing.

#24 Edited by nickzambuto (15026 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist said:

@nickzambuto: Um. None of my scans showed Joker running away >.<

Yes, because you very conveniently left out the very next page and only posted the panels with Joker fighting.

EDIT: Red Skull surpassed Hitler so that's gotta tell ya something about brutal and sadistic.

#25 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Okay. I guess you wanna see a fight concluding with Joker stepping on his opponent's defeated body lying on the ground, thus indicating the Joker's apparent victory?

#26 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (7084 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Skull has my vote. The guy has Xavier's mind right now.

#27 Edited by DWrathborne (338 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you know of any sadistic/evil feats for Red Skull? I'm just curious :)

Well, it's kind of 'in the eye of the beholder', but off the top of my head;

He experimented on his own daughter (whom he had almost murdered in a fit of rage for being born a girl) and later gave his agent Crossbones instructions to torture her in order to break SHIELD's mental programming. He beat the crap out of his underling/lover Mother Night, Dusted his accountant for being bad at her job, wormed his way into political office , developed a bio-chemical weapon which was released at Mount Rushmore resulting in the Red Zone incident, masterminded the assassination of Captain America by using Cap's lover as a trigger-woman, manipulated the Committee of Superhuman Affairs to force Steve Rogers to step down as Cap and install the Super Patriot John Walker as the new Cap. Had Walker's parents then targeted by the Watchdogs, believing that John Walker's vengeful actions would tarnish the symbol that is Captain America. He regularly kills the 'sparring partners' provided to him by the Taskmaster (and makes them dress up as Captain America to boot). Then of course as mentioned, recently carved up Xavier's brain and had it spliced into his own. And then there's the whole taking over the world and remaking it in his own image thing.

Note that those aren't in any particular order. I'm a little out of it at the moment, but I hope it helps shed some light on some of the Red Skull's history for you. :)

#28 Edited by homicidalmaniac (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

@doubleaa54 said:

I want to say The Joker, mainly because Joker is unpredictable. How can you fight a person that you know nothing of. Joker is forever changing when it comes to battling. His gear changes all the time, his tactics change, he changes. A lot of villains/heroes are predictable when they battle, Joker is not. Red Skull is more tactical, smarter, etc; but so is Batman, and he has had his ass specially delivered to him by Joker. Even the likes of Superman was corrupted by Joker. The un-corruptible was corrupted.

Iron Fist fought Sabretooth and Iron Fist didn't know who Sabretooth was an vice verse for Sabre and IF beaten Sabre without using Chi If I'm not mistaken.Being unpredictable doesn't make Joker beat Red Skull.And Red Skull have Professor X brain inside of him currently.

#29 Edited by homicidalmaniac (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: Red Skull almost made a Holocaust against the Mutant race.

#30 Posted by lesterlawton (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Skull. Faster, smarter, stronger.

#31 Edited by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by _Cerberus_ (3450 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Okay. I guess you wanna see a fight concluding with Joker stepping on his opponent's defeated body lying on the ground, thus indicating the Joker's apparent victory. Am I right?

*Joker easily surpasses Hitler. Not impressed.

lol Batman went down tooooo easy XD

#33 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@_cerberus_: Exactly. Most people underestimate Joker's expertise in stealth and unpredictability. How many people do you know who can sneak up on BATMAN? The Joker surely can.

#34 Edited by homicidalmaniac (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

@_cerberus_: Considering that Batman murderstomp Joker in Hush

#35 Edited by nickzambuto (15026 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: I don't see how Joker sneaking up on someone supports him beating Red Skull. If anything it's more evidence to my statement of him not being capable of hanging with the big boys in h2h without some type of leverage.

There's no way you seriously believe the Joker can beat Batman in a fair, 1 on 1 fist fight?

#36 Edited by God_Spawn (38391 posts) - - Show Bio

Skull's a tough S.O.B. The guy's duked it out with Cap. Gone h2h with Classic Kingpin. Gone h2h with Black Panther.

And I wonder how many people noticed this is Gotham? A city Joker knows quite well and one Skull doesn't even know exists.

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#37 Posted by homicidalmaniac (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: What issue did those scans come from

#38 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac said:

@_cerberus_: Considering that Batman murderstomp Joker in Hush

Joker loves pain anyway <3

There's no way you seriously believe the Joker can beat Batman in a fair, 1 on 1 fist fight?

LOL in a fair fight? Batman would butcherstomp him xD

My point is that Joker never plays FAIR. I've shown you plenty of instances of him cheating ^-^ He is definitely capable of cheating his way to victory on Red Skull.

#39 Edited by God_Spawn (38391 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac:

Avengers Volume 3, issue 70. It's part 6 of the Red Zone arc.

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#40 Posted by homicidalmaniac (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist: Batman might have kill Joker if Jim didn't stop Bruce.

#41 Posted by entropy_aegis (15460 posts) - - Show Bio

Joker could make things interesting with his poisoned nails,possibly blood,gas and buzzer but the Skull only needs one good hit,Skull takes it very handily.

#42 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@homicidalmaniac said:

@_cerberus_: Considering that Batman murderstomp Joker in Hush

Joker loves pain anyway <3

@nickzambuto said:

There's no way you seriously believe the Joker can beat Batman in a fair, 1 on 1 fist fight?

LOL in a fair fight? Batman would butcherstomp him xD

My point is that Joker never plays FAIR. I've shown you plenty of instances of him cheating ^-^ He is definitely capable of cheating his way to victory on Red Skull.

Joker isn't the only one that can cheat in a fight.

#43 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: You gotta admit—The Joker does it the best!

#44 Posted by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: You gotta admit—The Joker does it the best!

I'm not so sure about that. As twisted as the Joker is...he does have his own sense of fair play...it's as twisted as he is...but its there.

#45 Posted by Raw_Material (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

Shawnbaby's a goon!

#46 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Nope. Absolute ZERO "fairness" in his demented mind. At all.

He's a sociopath in every sense of the word. He cannot distinguish "fair" from "unfair." Good and Evil is just gibberish to him.

#47 Edited by Shawnbaby (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@shawnbaby: Nope. Absolute ZERO "fairness" in his demented mind. At all.

He's a sociopath in every sense of the word. He cannot distinguish "fair" from "unfair." Good and Evil is just gibberish to him.

I didn't say anything about "Good" or "Evil"...I didnt even say there was anything that we would recognize as a distinction between "fair" and "unfair"

#48 Edited by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaving aside h2h and everything else. Does the Joker has any kind of telepathic resistance? Because as of right now I would be worrying more about Red Skull's TP than his overall fighting skills.

#49 Posted by Raw_Material (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

Who wants to bet baby flagged this battle?

#50 Edited by Raw_Material (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

I say Red Skull though.