@thebourneposter: there are other heralds that will give trouble to MMH, I do not know why you are assuming he will only attack Surfer.
you do seem to be defending only surfer and no other heralds as if every other herald is the same as norrin which they aren't. there's a 1 in 7 chance MMH goes after surfer and a 6 in 7 chance he goes after a different herald. every other herald would be taken down by MMH
@thor_parker82: not really though. they aren't the same as surfer and you can't just equate norrin's feats as theirs. they got no showing of TP defense to suggest any form of resistance against MMH's offense
@all_mighty_beyonder: Lol, really, that's it? MMH telepathy is so far superior it's insane. Martian Manhunter forced the Specter onto the Astral Plane, he subconsciously held the entire Martian race back from passing into the after life, and he broke the Mageddon's physic defenses. That's a sampling of his feats, each far superior than any of Surfers. If you want me to put that Mageddon feat into perspective i will.
Surfer is not an idiot, if his TP isn't enough to match MMH, he will simply blitz him, MMH doesn't have FTL reaction time. he will be dead before he can process a thought.
@all_mighty_beyonder: Lol, really, that's it? MMH telepathy is so far superior it's insane. Martian Manhunter forced the Specter onto the Astral Plane, he subconsciously held the entire Martian race back from passing into the after life, and he broke the Mageddon's physic defenses. That's a sampling of his feats, each far superior than any of Surfers. If you want me to put that Mageddon feat into perspective i will.
Surfer is not an idiot, if his TP isn't enough to match MMH, he will simply blitz him, MMH doesn't have FTL reaction time. he will be dead before he can process a thought.
Yes he does. Can't say the same about Surfer though
@all_mighty_beyonder: Lol, really, that's it? MMH telepathy is so far superior it's insane. Martian Manhunter forced the Specter onto the Astral Plane, he subconsciously held the entire Martian race back from passing into the after life, and he broke the Mageddon's physic defenses. That's a sampling of his feats, each far superior than any of Surfers. If you want me to put that Mageddon feat into perspective i will.
Surfer is not an idiot, if his TP isn't enough to match MMH, he will simply blitz him, MMH doesn't have FTL reaction time. he will be dead before he can process a thought.
Yes he does. Can't say the same about Surfer though
proof?
Surfer has FTL reaction, everybody knows that, and i'm sure you saw a dozen scans of that
here is MMH reacting to a ship going 8 times FTL, after being ejected he chases down the ship and is able to grab a hold of it while phasing through it indicating reflexes greater than 8x FTL
here is MMH keeping up with a bloodlusted Flash in combat
and here is MMH keeping track of Flash's thought speeds with his TP
surfer has no FTL reactions. he has FTL travel speed but in terms of reactions he doesn't have any. he's only fast because of his board unless you can show otherwise
Firelord has MMH fortune cookie in a big pack, surfer will deal with superman or lantern, stardust can deal with lantern too, terrax can handle aquaman. The heralds are just too powerful and versatile for them.
If Clark can sun dip for a month, If Hal can merge to either Ion or Parallax, If Jonn can go to Fernus, If Diana is allow to go berserk during god mode,If Arthur has the Trident of Neptune and water hand..and if Bruce can make a powerful armor in a month. I believe Justice League has a chance.
here is MMH reacting to a ship going 8 times FTL, after being ejected he chases down the ship and is able to grab a hold of it while phasing through it indicating reflexes greater than 8x FTL
here is MMH keeping up with a bloodlusted Flash in combat
and here is MMH keeping track of Flash's thought speeds with his TP
surfer has no FTL reactions. he has FTL travel speed but in terms of reactions he doesn't have any. he's only fast because of his board unless you can show otherwise
you're kidding right?
that's not reflex speed, hell, it's not even travel speed.
firstly : we don't know how much time it took MMH to phase through the ship, he was traveling behind it, it's like drinking a beer while driving a car at 100 miles/hour, does that mean the driver drinks with the speed of 100 miles/hour? LooL of cource not.
second : this is not even a travel speed as it might look like, because it's stated clearly in the scans that MMH couldn't keep up with the ship and so he used a telekinetic link to the ship to stay close and shorten the distance little by little, it's like dragging a caddie with a horse, the caddie doesn't have a speed it's only dragged by the horse, the same happens hear with MMh and the ship.
MMH is not keeping with Flash, we only see a blur, and we don't know how fast Flash or MMH are moving, you're only assuming things, give me clear proof, i don't want assumptions.
the last scan, we see no reflex speed, MMH is only taking to Flash, we don't know how fast Flash is. there is nothing that proves it's FTL.
So again, you didn't give me a single feat of FTL reflex, i'm still waiting.
about Surfer, you could have asked, i would have giving you a dozen of feats of FTL reflexes. For now, this scan is more than enough :
light travels 12 inches/nanosecond, here Surfer analyse the situation and react waving his hands and legsmore than 12 inches, and he did all of that in less than 1 nanosecond. that's massively above lightspeed
here is MMH reacting to a ship going 8 times FTL, after being ejected he chases down the ship and is able to grab a hold of it while phasing through it indicating reflexes greater than 8x FTL
here is MMH keeping up with a bloodlusted Flash in combat
and here is MMH keeping track of Flash's thought speeds with his TP
surfer has no FTL reactions. he has FTL travel speed but in terms of reactions he doesn't have any. he's only fast because of his board unless you can show otherwise
you're kidding right?
that's not reflex speed, hell, it's not even travel speed.
WTH? you asked for reaction feats I gave you them, or did you suddenly change your mind on what you want
firstly : we don't know how much time it took MMH to phase through the ship, he was traveling behind it, it's like drinking a beer while driving a car at 100 miles/hour, does that mean the driver drinks with the speed of 100 miles/hour? LooL of cource not.
i thought the scans made it clear to you. 1) ship moves at 8 times FTL 2) MMH gets ejected 3) MMH still knows where the ship is 4) MMH chases after the ship 5) once he gets near he uses TK grip and phases himself through it at the same time while ship moving at 8 times FTL hence indicating he is 8+ times FTL in all categories of speed
second : this is not even a travel speed as it might look like, because it's stated clearly in the scans that MMH couldn't keep up with the ship and so he used a telekinetic link to the ship to stay close and shorten the distance little by little, it's like dragging a caddie with a horse, the caddie doesn't have a speed it's only dragged by the horse, the same happens hear with MMh and the ship.
the fact he can process a thought in that amount shows he does react fast, i don't know how badly you can possibly lowball this feat
MMH is not keeping with Flash, we only see a blur, and we don't know how fast Flash or MMH are moving, you're only assuming things, give me clear proof, i don't want assumptions.
umm yes he is. no we don't know how fast they're going but there's no freakin way you can assume they doing it slow. besides it's faster than anyone the heralds have shown
the last scan, we see no reflex speed, MMH is only taking to Flash, we don't know how fast Flash is. there is nothing that proves it's FTL.
it shows he's more than capable of registering a thought within the same as flash, and even if don't know how fast flash is, there's no way he's slow
So again, you didn't give me a single feat of FTL reflex, i'm still waiting.
the first 3 scans are, i don't get how you can lowball 8x FTL into something less than light. the next 2 show him applying his speed in combat, something surfer doesn't have, the final one shows his mind can keep up with flash's
about Surfer, you could have asked, i would have giving you a dozen of feats of FTL reflexes. For now, this scan is more than enough :
this is the same scan, every surfer fan hangs onto, nevertheless need it in combat applications
light travels 12 inches/nanosecond, here Surfer analyse the situation and react waving his hands and legs more than 12 inches in less than 1 nanosecond. that's massively above lightspeed
so there's just 1...anyways still not the fastest character here
here is MMH reacting to a ship going 8 times FTL, after being ejected he chases down the ship and is able to grab a hold of it while phasing through it indicating reflexes greater than 8x FTL
here is MMH keeping up with a bloodlusted Flash in combat
and here is MMH keeping track of Flash's thought speeds with his TP
surfer has no FTL reactions. he has FTL travel speed but in terms of reactions he doesn't have any. he's only fast because of his board unless you can show otherwise
you're kidding right?
that's not reflex speed, hell, it's not even travel speed.
WTH? you asked for reaction feats I gave you them, or did you suddenly change your mind on what you want
firstly : we don't know how much time it took MMH to phase through the ship, he was traveling behind it, it's like drinking a beer while driving a car at 100 miles/hour, does that mean the driver drinks with the speed of 100 miles/hour? LooL of cource not.
i thought the scans made it clear to you. 1) ship moves at 8 times FTL 2) MMH gets ejected 3) MMH still knows where the ship is 4) MMH chases after the ship 5) once he gets near he uses TK grip and phases himself through it at the same time while ship moving at 8 times FTL hence indicating he is 8+ times FTL in all categories of speed
second : this is not even a travel speed as it might look like, because it's stated clearly in the scans that MMH couldn't keep up with the ship and so he used a telekinetic link to the ship to stay close and shorten the distance little by little, it's like dragging a caddie with a horse, the caddie doesn't have a speed it's only dragged by the horse, the same happens hear with MMh and the ship.
the fact he can process a thought in that amount shows he does react fast, i don't know how badly you can possibly lowball this feat
MMH is not keeping with Flash, we only see a blur, and we don't know how fast Flash or MMH are moving, you're only assuming things, give me clear proof, i don't want assumptions.
umm yes he is. no we don't know how fast they're going but there's no freakin way you can assume they doing it slow. besides it's faster than anyone the heralds have shown
the last scan, we see no reflex speed, MMH is only taking to Flash, we don't know how fast Flash is. there is nothing that proves it's FTL.
it shows he's more than capable of registering a thought within the same as flash, and even if don't know how fast flash is, there's no way he's slow
So again, you didn't give me a single feat of FTL reflex, i'm still waiting.
the first 3 scans are, i don't get how you can lowball 8x FTL into something less than light. the next 2 show him applying his speed in combat, something surfer doesn't have, the final one shows his mind can keep up with flash's
about Surfer, you could have asked, i would have giving you a dozen of feats of FTL reflexes. For now, this scan is more than enough :
this is the same scan, every surfer fan hangs onto, nevertheless need it in combat applications
light travels 12 inches/nanosecond, here Surfer analyse the situation and react waving his hands and legs more than 12 inches in less than 1 nanosecond. that's massively above lightspeed
so there's just 1...anyways still not the fastest character here
i thought i asked you a simple question, show me FTL reflexes, not show me what you think are impressive speeds, sure MMh is fast and have impressive travel speeds and reflex speed, but i want FASTER THAN LIGHT reflexes, none of those scans show that.
your first scans, show what looks like travel speed, no reflex speed involved, but again this is not even a travel speed because MMH used a TK link to drag him to the ship. If he and the ship are traveling with the same speed, he can take all the time he needs to phase through the ship, as i said it's like you drinking a coffee in a train moving 300 Km/h, it doesn't mean you can drink coffee at home with the speed of 300Km/h. so again where is the reflex speed FTL i asked for? there isn't.
Flash/MMh fight scan, show relatively impressive speed, but no FTL speed, hence no proof of FTL reflexes
Flash/MMH talk scan, show nothing impressive, no reflex speed, no FTL quantification, hence again no proof of FTL reflexes
i can see that your in love with MMH, but you didn't provide me yet a FTL reflex, if you have not, just admit he simply doesn't have FTL reflexes. and let's move on.
Surfer has many FTL reflexes, i don't have all the scans, i'm not a scan collector, but i'll show you some of them :
you have the above scan, Surfer showed FTL reflexes, deny it or not, you would be denying the obvious. Surfer analysed the situation and freed himself, and all of that in less than 1 nanosecond, that above FTL reaction speed.
Again Surfer thinking (without moving) and then reacting, and all of that in less than 1 nanosecond.
Surfer in an actual fight dodging and counter attacking FTL
there is other scans of FTL reaction time, but those are more than enough.
Now can i see please scans of MMH with reflexes FTL or are you gonna keep bragging about those useless scans you showed me?
heralds moderate difficulty, some of them eg Surfer and star dust who both have ftl reflexes can almost solo with Flash being the last to stand.
batman, wonder woman, Clark and Aquaman fall in a nanosecond from any of the heralds.
Jonn is not fast enough to take on either star dust or surfer so he goes next. He only stands a chance if he can use tp before being taken down he doesn't have the speed to prevent a blitz first. If we go by the rule that Surfer won't blitz besides doing it a dozen times then we may as well say Flash won't speed steal coz he had done it like 2-3 times in 60yrs.
Hal can take on most of the heralds but not at once.
Flash is tricky with the speed steal, but he has never done it successfully to planetary energy manipulators so that's touchy at best. none of his other powers can hurt any of the heralds.
@thanosii: agree with all except that bit about Hal
Hal, while easily the only league member with the powerset to keep up with a herald, has one criminal disadvantage: he has to THINK to do anything meaningful
He isn't getting the time to that here, with the speeds involved. In fact he goes down at the same time as Bruce
Clark, Diana and Jonn( post crisis versions) have lightspeed-ish reactions.....which is meaningless in comparison to the speeds of surfer and stardust to name but two
Wally has a shot here, but only one shot, with his speedsteal which he has to
A) get close to affect, to the point of various instances of him actually specifically having to touch stuff to do so. This isn't happening here what with each of the heralds packing a wide range attack of some kind, faster than them
B) Wallys not fast enough to steal ALL their speeds, even if we assume hes actually faster than say the surfer( which is hilarious given surfers feats, including stuff like being faster than Nova, who moves through absolute zero)
@thegrayghost: and you remember how Majestic snatched the GL ring away from Kyle before he even knew what was going on or when when Zod took the GL ring and told him a thought based weapon is useless against someone faster than thought.
@thanosii: not one of the heralds has the telepathy resistance to handle jonn and he can potentially solo because of that. Most of the heralds here(firelord, terrax, air walker, stardust and red shift)are consistently far below supetman level characters and get stomped by the leaguers. None of them have operational speed boardering on what's nessecary to beat wally(most don't have above average comnat speed at all.
@thanosii: not one of the heralds has the telepathy resistance to handle jonn and he can potentially solo because of that. Most of the heralds here(firelord, terrax, air walker, stardust and red shift)are consistently far below supetman level characters and get stomped by the leaguers. None of them have operational speed boardering on what's nessecary to beat wally(most don't have above average comnat speed at all.
Firelord has stalemated Thor and SS
Stardust had a fight with Beta Ray Bill in which several planets were destroyed and Stardust opened a blackhole with her own power.
Red Shift stalemated SS in the heart of a blackhole.
So no, they are not "consistently far below superman level characters"
Most of the heralds don't have that many feats to prove they can stand against the League actually. I mean, all of them have been said to have great power and stuff, but don't have the feats.
While, the JLers have a lot, and a lot, and a lot and a lot of feats. They are the "Feats Lords". And that is undeniable.
While i was reading coments on this thread i realized, that most of the poeple's here are just Surfer fans, and really like to downplay the JL. Surfer and Stardust cannot solo the league. Hal, Flash & J'onn can put up a good fight and even win 5-6/10.
Firestorm has some sort of feats, but c'mon, he almost got defeated by the X-Men in 1976 or 1977, In Uncanny X-Men by Claremont & Byrne.
The rest of the Heralds have one or two feats and that's it. And it's not enough to defeat JL.
I know, that everyone out there will say that im just a dumb JL fanboy and that im wrong & stuff. But it's not true. Im actually right.
Batman gets anihilated in the first nanosecond though.
@man_of_miracles: thor and silver surfer hold back a lot and firelord still couldn't do anything but stalemate them. Firelord was nearly killed by a single energy blast during annihilation.
Stardust was basically bills punching bag during their fight. It's not impressive. He/she was destroyed by a moon level explosion and didn't regenerate for several days. Stardust couldn't even one shot black panther.
Red shift was actually killed by the moon explosion I mentioned earlier.
@man_of_miracles: thor and silver surfer hold back a lot and firelord still couldn't do anything but stalemate them. Firelord was nearly killed by a single energy blast during annihilation.
Stardust was basically bills punching bag during their fight. It's not impressive. He/she was destroyed by a moon level explosion and didn't regenerate for several days. Stardust couldn't even one shot black panther.
Red shift was actually killed by the moon explosion I mentioned earlier.
Yes they are.
They are obviously not as proven by feats.
If you want to argue that the JL wins this fight due to their advantages that is cool.
But quit lowballing the Heralds, I get that you are a DC fanboy and all but it is just stupid to claim people who can casually fight planet busters or create blackholes with their own power are "far below Superman level". Or do we need to come in and name all the times that the members of the JL have gotten their asses whipped by people below Superman Level?
why is batman and aquaman here? take them out. batman will be dead in a nanosecond. aquaman is useless even if he was on a water based planet. why not use firestorm and captain atom?
@man_of_miracles: how am I lowballing exactly? These showings are consistent. It'd be hard for them not to be given how few appearances the heralds have. I'm not going to address the crap about me being a DC fanboy. You could try to lowball the league, but the difference is they have the consistent showings to suggest supetman level beings would be hard pressed to beat them. The heralds don't.
Most of the heralds don't have that many feats to prove they can stand against the League actually. I mean, all of them have been said to have great power and stuff, but don't have the feats.
While, the JLers have a lot, and a lot, and a lot and a lot of feats. They are the "Feats Lords". And that is undeniable.
While i was reading coments on this thread i realized, that most of the poeple's here are just Surfer fans, and really like to downplay the JL. Surfer and Stardust cannot solo the league. Hal, Flash & J'onn can put up a good fight and even win 5-6/10.
Firestorm has some sort of feats, but c'mon, he almost got defeated by the X-Men in 1976 or 1977, In Uncanny X-Men by Claremont & Byrne.
The rest of the Heralds have one or two feats and that's it. And it's not enough to defeat JL.
I know, that everyone out there will say that im just a dumb JL fanboy and that im wrong & stuff. But it's not true. Im actually right.
Batman gets anihilated in the first nanosecond though.
the JL can put up an Epic fight and win 4-6/10
there is no way the league loses with batman aquaman here. how are the heralds going to stop them 2. aquaman drowns everyone or a batkick to the face. league wins 7 out of 10.
@man_of_miracles: how am I lowballing exactly? These showings are consistent. It'd be hard for them not to be given how few appearances the heralds have. I'm not going to address the crap about me being a DC fanboy. You could try to lowball the league, but the difference is they have the consistent showings to suggest supetman level beings would be hard pressed to beat them. The heralds don't.
How are you lowballing? Maybe by stating people who have fought planet busters regularly are far below Superman level?
I don't need to try and lowball the JL. They have plenty of low showings it wouldn't be that hard.
Yeah your right the Heralds don't have even 1/10 of the amount of feats that the JL does, however their feats fully support them being Superman tier characters, you are ignoring that with their low showings and you are disregarding their high showings which is idiotic.
The feats I listed for the Heralds you named are easily Superman level and just pointing out their low showings doesn't change that.
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