The Great Evil Beast vs. The Living Tribunal

@lol: spctre is never backed by the presence. the most powerful version is unbound, then corrigan, then the othersand the GEB should win here, its as powerful as the presence but not fully omnipotent, only the presence and GEB together are. he still wins though

yes i know i only kidding about people buying that. and one user here say spectre one time was one with the presence omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent but i understand he never accept a dc character loses and always write bs and yes GEB stomp this

Spectre was already swatted away by GEB when they encountered one another. Also, there is NO SUCH THING as a "fully backed Spectre". That logic is flawed because ANYTHING fully backed by God would be all powerful obviously. The Presence could "back" a Wasp and that Wasp would solo all of DC so The Presence isn;t backing anything. He just places limits on Spectre's power so he won't be corrupted. The Logoz is his connection to God, the source that embodies the Spectre's duty with The Presence's Will. Not that any of this is relevant to GEB defeating LT.

The only being who is truly omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient is The Presence, as far as DC goes anyway. Everyone else is only Nigh at best. There is no equal to TP in DC. Even Lucifer + Michael would NEVER equal the TP.

@rijehu: I'm pretty sure the Primal Monitor > The Presence.

@rijehu: Well, I still consider the Primal Monitor to be DC.

@shootingnova: You can because it is what DC is written upon, however it was The Presence that created DC Universe so WITHIN DC, he is in fact the Supreme being. PM is all things outside of DC. It is what lies beyond DC creation, which is the writers.

@rijehu: Which means PM is TOAA of DC. Although as I recall it was described as the canvas to be written on, not so much the writers themselves.

@shootingnova: No, PM is TOAA in DC Franchise, not DC Universe. It is outside of DC Universe because DC Universe is written within, and upon the PM. The PM, which separates itself from DCU, is represented as the blank pages of an actual DC Comicbook, meaning that it represents the will of the writers, meaning it is representing OUR reality, the actual reality me and you are currently interacting within.

The Presence, who is the fictional God of DC Universe created the fictional DC Universe upon the real pages and ideas of the PM, which represents the REAL writers of the actual reality. So, within DC Universe, The Presence is equal to TOAA because he is just as powerful over his creation as TOAA is over Marvel. Using ABC logic it would be easy to say that TOAA > The Presence but that would not be entirely correct.

The PM (Real writers) granted The Presence (Fictional God) just as much power over DCU (NOT DC Franchise) as TOAA has over Marvel Universe. So even if The Presence was created from outside powers and TOAA wasn't, he was still created to rule over his universe just as Supreme as TOAA does. So within the DC and Marvel COMICVERSE, the beings are indeed equal. In the reality you and I are interacting in however, TOAA and The PM are equal. So yes, TOAA does have greater jurisdiction than The Presence, but ONLY when it comes to reality outside of the comic book, which is irrelevant since this is indeed, a COMIC comparison. As long as they are on those comic pages, they are equal. I hope this helps lol

@rijehu: I know what you are saying, but frankly TOAA is basically the Presence and PM combined. He doesn't solely exist inside a comic, and he represents the writer(s). He could still erase the Presence because he is not limited to existence within the pages of a comic, and he just as much represents the "external forces" which shaped the Presence.

Meh in a way, but that doesn't take power from TP. TOAA just plays the same roles in Marvel Franchise and in Marvel Comicverse, whereas PM and The Presence are two sides of the same coin. The writers of Marvel Franchise made themselves the God of Marvel Universe as well. Their power is supreme in the entire MARVEL Franchise only. Even though they transcend the comicverse, they hold no power in DC universe OR DC Franchise. He can't erase The Presence because the Presence is written within, and the PM (DC writers) whom granted the Presence Omnipotence within DC Universe, which is also beyond TOAA's influence.

The PM is the creator of all DC Franchise, but granted The Presence rule, and creation over DC Universe, where TP is indeed supreme. It's like I said before. Those "external forces" have nothing to do with The Presence being Omnipotent. In DC, the writers decided to create a being who can do all things within his Universe, just as TOAA can in Marvel. The Presence is an aspect of DC Franchise, but he is no less powerful than TOAA in Comicverse. I grant you TOAA may have greater jurisdiction in our reality, but TP is still his equal in DC and Marvel comicverse.

Man i know all you say i only write because people say that, it not means i buy it

I made this thread almost five months ago. :P

No, really this isnt the only one sided battle you doing

What do you mean "sided"?

Lol. I not be good to explain

SPITE THREADS

@rijehu: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying TOAA isn't limited to the Comicverse in the first place. He is the writers.

@shootingnova: This is true.

@rijehu: Which is precisely why he exceeds the Presence - because he exists in a different plane of reality.

@shootingnova: You are right in a sense. He exceeds The Presence OUTSIDE of comics because he is based on the writers who exist outside of the comics as well. However, he still would not beat The Presence because they both share the same role in comics. They are both supreme rulers.

TOAA has two roles. God of Marvel Universe (Character) and creator of Marvel Franchise (Writer). Obviously the creator of marvel franchise is greater than The Presence because it is a living person from our reality. However, the God of Marvel role is equal to The Presence in DC, which is why if the CHARACTERS battled, it would be an eternal Stalemate.

Trying to compare TOAA's representation to The Presence is like comparing me to the Living Tribunal, obviously, in reality I would win because I am of the real plane of existence, but comicwise, LT would wipe me out of Marvel existence. It is the same thing here. TOAA as the writer, does exceed The Presence, but TOAA as the God of marvel comicverse, is equal to The Presence of DC. And since we base battles off of the comic characters, not the writers or real life, they are for all purposes, equal beings in different comicverses.

@rijehu: We shouldn't consider TOAA as two different entities. It serves as the god of Marvel, but in a different way. It is simultaneously the writer(s), which again, surpasses the Presence.

This whole Presence/TOAA debate is silly at this point, neither one is "real" in real life sense and both are equal being as how both represent the "God" of their universe DC/Marvel thus stalemate. Pretty sure writers created Presence also, and currently N52 he IS the creator of all things there is nobody higher. Neither surpass either, they're equal just represented differently.

@baron_von_santa: Agreed. GEB wins here.

@vaeternus: LOL. The TOAA has already been shown to be the writer(s). In fact, I believe he was shown as Jack Kirby as well. That's a distinction from the Presence, somebody who is supreme within a reality written on the Primal Monitor.

@shootingnova: I said it serves to different roles, still the same being. And yes, the writers do surpass The Presence, but only in this reality. You are debating with me on something I have already agreed upon, yet you are not understanding me.

TOAA is the embodiment of Marvel writers and God of Marvel Universe. He is once again, one being with two different aspects. The Presence is the God of DC, which is his primary role.

In the Comicverse, which is what this entire website is mainly founded upon, TOAA and TP have equal power. There is Nothing TOAA can do inside of Marvel that TP can't do inside of DC. Because of that, they are equal beings in comicverse.

What you are debating about IIAC, is the fact that because TOAA is also the writers, that makes him above TP, because he exists outside of the comics. While that is true and obvious outside of comics, it holds no potency within the comics, because as long as they are comic characters, even part of them, TP and TOAA is equivalent to each other in their own respective universes. You feel that TOAA can erase The Presence because he is the writer, and The Presence is just a character, but I'm telling you it won't happen because The Presence is intertwined within the PM, making him out of TOAA's jurisdiction.

I can't come to your house and claim it as my own because you are the established force there, meaning I have no jurisdiction over you. Just because TOAA is the writers and The Presence is the creation of DC writers, does not mean that TOAA erases TP. That's the ABC logic viners constantly warn against.

So does TOAA as the writer of Marvel exceed the plane of The Presence? YES. Does that mean he erases The Presence? NO. Is The Presence equal to TOAA in our plane? NO. But are they equivalent in Marvel and DC comicverse? YES.

@shootingnova: Oh I'm sure that TOAA is "the writer" but I'm saying Presence and everyone else technically is also created by the "writers" and they hold power over everyone. Wait...wait lol cause recently I asked few hardcore Marvel fans on here who swore TOAA is Stan Lee, but you say he's Jack Kirby? lol I think a lot of this "who is TOAA" stuff is speculation since I always read or am told different things lol.

I just see every universe as having their own "version of God" so to speak.

@vaeternus: I read on the wiki that it was Stan Lee, but some people said it was Jack Kirby.

@vaeternus: @rijehu: @shootingnova: actually, to me, the one above all should be above the presence, seeing as the writer and a being creates difference is that one is within a story and the other is making the story. and both are below the primal monitor, since it is the canvas on witch all creations are made. the presence is not all powerful, only when combined with GEB to make yahweh, they are

I'm trying to say that but you just made it simple for me lol. Thank you @vaeternus

@rijehu: That wasn't what I was saying at all. You are using the term "only in this reality", except TOAA is only in this reality. What I was saying was that TOAA is essentially not a comicbook character. He is not to be considered a character within comics, as far as I know. He serves as the God of Marvel by being the force that is the writers. So he is God because he is the writers. What you see on the pages is basically how the writers want to make themselves known.

Drat, I think I flagged you by accident, but the mods will understand.

But what I was about to say was: How can a writer be inferior to the writing material?

@shootingnova: In that case, the writers of DC made themselves known by PM, but interact with DC through The Presence, who is still Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient in that Universe. So even if TOAA is the writers of Marvel, he is still equal to The Presence of DC because the writers of DC made it so. And as stated before, in the New 52, the writers have officially made The Presence the absolute Omniarch of all there is in DC, taking PM role, thus he is still equal to TOAA in Marvel.

@rijehu: The writers interact with DC by writing on the Primal Monitor. The Presence remains one of their creations. On the other hand, TOAA wasn't created by the writers. He is the writers.

And I'm not sure when he was stated to have taken the role of the Primal Monitor.

@shootingnova: @rijehu:being the creator of a reality doesn't necessarily make said being omnipotent, it only makes him the most powerful being in his creation, so when you compare both to their creation, they both are omnipotent. but here at comic vine, we compare both to everyone, because omnipotence is relative. anyone with enough power can create a creation, size, how easily said creation was created, matters.

and of course a writer is superior

@rijehu: the primal monitor is the canvas on which all creations are made, not just dc, but ALL. and they never did such a thing

@baron_von_santa: I think I can see that going for Pre n52 but currently, Presence stated he's the creator of all things unlike before where he said "even I was created by someone" that is not the case in current continuity therefore I think he's God and equal to TOAA. Looking for the scan, I may have to pic it from my issue lol.

Sure anytime dude ;)

It really is simple and both are equal when you think about it, both rep God but some people out there try to break it down for whatever reason. You ask me, a creator of a Universe is a creator of a Universe lol

@vaeternus: so, now he's the creator of 52 universes, unlike before he was the lord of 3 multiverses. i fail to see how he got more powerful. being created doesn't make you more or less powerful, it just makes you unoriginal

@shootingnova: Now it sounds like the debate is "Because TOAA is a real person, he is more powerful than a DC Character." If you are going to use that logic, then I can end it by saying that because PM represents the canvas which all ink is written upon, or the pages and possibilities, DC writers are greater than TOAA because even marvel writers need the canvas to create their comic books. That logic gets us nowhere though lol. The point is, regardless of how they were created, or not, TOAA rules Supreme in Marvel, and the The Presence rules supreme in DC Universe, and in New 52, that has been solidified. They are both Gods. They are both All powerful.

@baron_von_santa: Well, let's just say Spectre fighting Phantom Stranger was putting the multiverse in danger, Presence stopped it flat by just showing up so yeah i'd say that's power...lol I will respectfully disagree there, if being an omnipotent creator of unvierses, multiverses and being God means nothing then TOAA is even less relevant because "TOAA" doesn't even do anything, LT has more feats them he does at least Presence has shown up and done things at times.

Remember, besides N52 rebooted everything I don't see anything stronger then Presence. But still that whole "writer thing" to me is nonsense when every character is written by someone. All I'm saying.

@rijehu: Exactly lol

@vaeternus: what multiverse in danger? at best, 52 universes. and they both stopped fighting because their master came, not because the voice actually did something. AND your argument is actually helping me, because yeah, all was reckoned, both the spectre and the PS are ridiculously weaker than before, and they call it the new 52 for a reason.

how is it nonsense? the writer isn't written by another writer, it is not that hard to understand

@baron_von_santa: The writers made The Presence supreme ruler of DC man, which is what TOAA is in his Universe. In that sense, they are equal. Hence the reason why these debates continue because of "Omnipotent" beings. My view still stands that The Presence is the God of DC, which is equivalent to TOAA in Marvel. Outside of the comics isn't a factor here.

@baron_von_santa: It's still multiple universes, so what because Marvel has supposedly "infinite" amount that means TOAA is more powerful? We haven't even seen all of these universes and the Voice/Presence did do something he has a few feats in N52, more then TOAA has done in what? 10 years? lol He brought Phantom Stranger from hell to heaven, resurrected him after he betrayed God/Presence, allowed the kid to live again who PS saved(who currently Blight is possessing), freed PS's family from hell and instantly transferred them into heaven, stopped Spectre/PS's fight effecting the multiverse by just showing up and saying "guys stop it or else..." has admitted he's the creator of everything so until there's proof of current Presence showing someone more powerful then he is, he's the God of DCU(the true god, none of that sharing with GEB nonsense) since there is no GEB in N52 even mentioned...

I'm saying every character is written by a writer...

How are they weaker then before? Have you read the archs? If you did you'd know they're actually stronger then before if anything...yes new doesn't mean weaker, several characters have actually gotten buffed from Supes to Darkseid, Spectre, Presence, can go on...

Only a few characters have gotten weaker in N52, a lot have gotten stronger actually....

It's probably best if we agree to disagree. You have your view, I have mine.

@rijehu: thats bad logic, he said nothing of the sort.

the writer can make infinite creations, within there are infinite omnipotents.

the primal monitor is the canvas, which has nothing to do with dc other than the whole of dc is in it, so keep the primal monitor out of this.

both gods is a bad agreement. use relativity. first, lets talk about new 52 P vs TOAA

a being who is the ruler of 52 UNIVERSES vs a writer? lol

a being who was created by the writer to be omnipotent vs an actual writer? lol

now, think of this, within the canvas are infinite creations made by infinite supreme beings of each creation. and some creations are multiverses, some are just a world big. now, its easy to know who is more powerful, right? now think, all those creations and supreme beings are created by writers, but one writer choose to be his creations own supreme being. think about the rest

@rijehu: Of course "outside of comics" is a factor here. TOAA only exists outside of comics.

I frankly consider the Primal Monitor to be equivalent to TOAA. He is the pages that are written upon, while TOAA is the one who does the writing.

@vaeternus: come on, lets be reasonable here, all those feats you mentioned, pre 52 spectre can easily copy. can you actually mention a feat worthy?

and stop ignoring stuff, i said like, three times that dc is now

52 UNIVERSES

CAN YOU PLEASE READ MY POSTS BEFORE EVEN REPLYING? IF NOT, THEN THIS IS A WASTE OF TIME, EVERYTHING YOU HAVE SAID, I ALREADY ANSWERED

@shootingnova: why do i have the sneaking suspicion that someone have ears similar to fanboys?

I think we are applying many different logics here. Yes the writers of Marvel > than a character in DC because they are real people. But the moment they placed themselves within a Marvel Comic book, they became a character, which was written upon what DC calls Primal Monitor. Within the Primal Monitor, The Presence and TOAA have the same roles as Supreme beings in tier universes. The Presence = TOAA in comics, but not in life obviously.

@rijehu: same roles, but different people fill those roles. the writer within a comic book, still represents the writer. what, do you think that just because he's inside the comic he now is a comic character that was created by himself? no, he represents himself, unlike the presence who is a supreme being, but is still within the story.

I am being reasonable..with all due respect I have read EVERY issue of Phantom Stranger and the one thing n52 has said unlike pre is nobody created him...

That's the difference, I'm not ignoring anything i'm going by what's actually canon since I doubt most on here actually read PS. Yes I'm aware of the 52 universes, I'm NOT blind...also read a bunch of DC so I think I'd know.

As I said if you're willing to disagree fine, it's still not changing my view. I don't care for this dumb "logistics" with "real writer vs. character" BOTH are fake lol.