i know Batman's a trained ninja and everything, but all 4 goblins' weapons out number the utility belt. But I guess the main reason my money's on the Goblins is that they're some of my favorite supervillians.
The Goblins vs. The Bat Squad
Witchblade Freefall says:
"i know Batman's a trained ninja and everything, but all 4 goblins' weapons out number the utility belt. But I guess the main reason my money's on the Goblins is that they're some of my favorite supervillians."
Ditto and welcome to the vine.
Eternal Chaos says:
"The Goblin's can just tail close to the ground and fire dazzler blasts (the normal goblins) and hellfire (Demogoblin). The Goblin's are really good at shooting so they can handle whatever the bat squad shoots off. Or they can fly at higher altitudes and fire away"
So you're ignoring the initial emp that takes most of them down (unaviodable) and area affecting devices such as flashbangs, smoke pellets, explosives ansd sonics that don't have to hit directly to be effective and can easily be used to get a Goblin off their board. And you're also saying that Demogoblin will be willing to fly close to the ground or shoot at the Bats even when the ground is covered with smoke and he could easily crash, fly into a tripwire, or shoot his allies?
Buckshot says:
"Eternal Chaos says:"The Goblin's can just tail close to the ground and fire dazzler blasts (the normal goblins) and hellfire (Demogoblin). The Goblin's are really good at shooting so they can handle whatever the bat squad shoots off. Or they can fly at higher altitudes and fire away"So you're ignoring the initial emp that takes most of them down (unaviodable) and area affecting devices such as flashbangs, smoke pellets, explosives ansd sonics that don't have to hit directly to be effective and can easily be used to get a Goblin off their board. And you're also saying that Demogoblin will be willing to fly close to the ground or shoot at the Bats even when the ground is covered with smoke and he could easily crash, fly into a tripwire, or shoot his allies?"
EMP's only affect devices like tracking devices, timer bombs, computerized bombs or weapons ect. Goblin's original Glider isn't like that. He's basically just a mini rocket that he manuevers by shifting his weight. Demo Goblin would fly above everything and most likely toss dozens of Darkness bombs that would take down the Batsquad leaving them vulnerable.
But that's only 2 Goblins that aren't being taken down right away by the EMP, and they won't be fighting for the same reason I gave before. And the methods I mentioned to take one down afterwards still work even if there are two. One more being in the air doesn't change anything I've said. Might make it a little harder since they have to split up to deal with two fliers, but the weapons and tactics I suggested still work.
Buckshot says:
"But that's only 2 Goblins that aren't being taken down right away by the EMP, and they won't be fighting for the same reason I gave before. And the methods I mentioned to take one down afterwards still work even if there are two. One more being in the air doesn't change anything I've said. Might make it a little harder since they have to split up to deal with two fliers, but the weapons and tactics I suggested still work. "
That's all the Goblins. They're all using the original Glider not some suped up one that uses tracking devices or anything. How would smoke pellats, flashbangs or anything else affect the Goblins if they're flying around coordinating their attacks. Norman has always been a leader and is a good strategist. He's the most experienced and will be leading the others into battle. I'm more than sure they would listen. Harry loves his dad and'll end up doing whatever he wants. Norman would claim that the Bat Squad is guilty of sin for Demo and the other two would have no choice. I don't see Batman and his team getting out of this alive. No matter what, The Goblins are known for staying in air.
Have they always used rocket powered one? I've seen other goblins using gliders that didn't have the big plume of smoke trailing them, ones that looked more advanced than just a rocket with wings. If there's any circuitry or computer at all, they're going down. Smoke pellets and flashbangs (which would greatly reduce the vision of or totally blind the goblins, making it dangerous to fly and impossible to spot the bats), explosives (if the goblin are just on rockets with wings, well placed explosions could easily knock them off or throw them off course or into buildings, or just flat out destroy the gliders), sonics (which would confuse, deafen or otherwise distract the the goblins, keeping them unfocused and more likely to crash or not notice other attacks), tripwires (if strategically placed could take down a passing goblin), grappling guns (used as quick setup tripwires or a way for the bats to get onto the gliders or pull them off course), knock out gas (in pellets tossed up in the air or onto passing goblins), you don't think any of this could affect the goblins? Sounds like you're not even giving the bats a chance. And between the bats and the goblins, the bats are much better organized and more used to threats like goblins than the goblins are to enemies like the bats. Flight, while a major advantage, is not one that the bats could not or have not overcome, and other than that, the goblins are nothing that the team (or individuals) hasn't faced many times before. The bats are known for taking down freaks.
Buckshot says:
"Have they always used rocket powered one? I've seen other goblins using gliders that didn't have the big plume of smoke trailing them, ones that looked more advanced than just a rocket with wings. If there's any circuitry or computer at all, they're going down. Smoke pellets and flashbangs (which would greatly reduce the vision of or totally blind the goblins, making it dangerous to fly *and* impossible to spot the bats), explosives (if the goblin are just on rockets with wings, well placed explosions could easily knock them off or throw them off course or into buildings, or just flat out destroy the gliders), sonics (which would confuse, deafen or otherwise distract the the goblins, keeping them unfocused and more likely to crash or not notice other attacks), tripwires (if strategically placed could take down a passing goblin), grappling guns (used as quick setup tripwires or a way for the bats to get onto the gliders or pull them off course), knock out gas (in pellets tossed up in the air or onto passing goblins), you don't think *any* of this could affect the goblins? Sounds like you're not even giving the bats a chance. And between the bats and the goblins, the bats are *much* better organized and more used to threats like goblins than the goblins are to enemies like the bats. Flight, while a major advantage, is not one that the bats could not or have not overcome, and other than that, the goblins are nothing that the team (or individuals) hasn't faced many times before. The bats are known for taking down freaks."
Those were different Goblins than the ones I'm using. All those Flashbangs, and knock-out gas, explosions, ect aren't going to hit the Goblins if the Goblins are high enough and they probably would be. The Bat Squad would need time to pull those thing out, but If the Goblins are moving as fast as possible (which is faster than any normal human being can run)The Goblins'll end up pegging the Bats. All the gadgets the Bats have, the Goblins have. So who's to say the Goblins won't be able to dodge the projectiles thrown by the Bats? You're making it seem like the Goblins are just going to stand there like idiots and let themselves get gased, blown up, tripped, or whatever else. I know I sound repetitive, but Demo has Darkness Bombs that can literally take away all your fight and make you want to give up. That bomb will automatically take you quickly. The Bats won't even think there's anything special about the bomb and get caught by it. The Goblins can toss knockout gas if they want too, or just fly into the bats, grab them and drop them. Or fly by and rip the utility belt off. They also have razor bats that are battery operated.
How often do the goblins fly high enough so that they're out of range to attack? I always see them flying lower than buildings. The only time they're higher than that is when spider-man is on roof tops. They stay higher than their enemy, but they're never out of range. Even if they leave throwing range, if they're able to see or hear the bats, the flashbangs and sonics will work. If the goblins are moving as fast as possible, and all of a sudden they can't see or they're getting blasted with sound, they're going to hit each other or surrounding buildings. They're also not going to see thin wires right in front of them, and they won't be expecting any of this. I'm not saying they can't dodge what's thrown, but all the weapons save the tripwires affect a wide area, not specific points. That's why I didn't mention batarangs (though they could use them to fill the air with razor sharp, electrified, filled with knock out gas or other things). I'm not saying they're standing there, I picture them laughing maniacally as they fly recklessly through the air and drop badly aimed bombs on targets they aren't going to hit, because that's what they do. The Bats aren't going to be waiting for attack either. They'll be cloaked in shadow and smoke and hiding in and amongst buildings with the goblins having no clue where they are. The way I would see the goblins winning is by immediately carpeting the entire area with their complete arsenal, giving the bats no place to duck and cover. That's not what they do though, and even if they were that out of character, if they don't get all the bats, they're out of weapons, so it's not foolproof. The goblins can throw knock out gas all they want, that's the bat family trademark move, of course they'll have gas masks. Any weapons they carry they have something so it doesn't affect them. And if they come down to do flybys on the bats it just makes them more open to the methods I mentioned.
Buckshot says:
"How often do the goblins fly high enough so that they're out of range to attack? I always see them flying lower than buildings. The only time they're higher than that is when spider-man is on roof tops. They stay higher than their enemy, but they're never out of range. Even if they leave throwing range, if they're able to see or hear the bats, the flashbangs and sonics will work. If the goblins are moving as fast as possible, and all of a sudden they can't see or they're getting blasted with sound, they're going to hit each other or surrounding buildings. They're also not going to see thin wires right in front of them, and they won't be expecting any of this. I'm not saying they can't dodge what's thrown, but all the weapons save the tripwires affect a wide area, not specific points. That's why I didn't mention batarangs (though they could use them to fill the air with razor sharp, electrified, filled with knock out gas or other things). I'm not saying they're standing there, I picture them laughing maniacally as they fly recklessly through the air and drop badly aimed bombs on targets they aren't going to hit, because that's what they do. The Bats aren't going to be waiting for attack either. They'll be cloaked in shadow and smoke and hiding in and amongst buildings with the goblins having no clue where they are. The way I would see the goblins winning is by immediately carpeting the entire area with their complete arsenal, giving the bats no place to duck and cover. That's not what they do though, and even if they were that out of character, if they don't get all the bats, they're out of weapons, so it's not foolproof. The goblins can throw knock out gas all they want, that's the bat family trademark move, of course they'll have gas masks. Any weapons they carry they have something so it doesn't affect them. And if they come down to do flybys on the bats it just makes them more open to the methods I mentioned. "
They don't just fly recklessly, they fly trying to kill, and they fly with an incredible amount of skill. When the Goblins toss the bombs, they'll throw them at the Bat Squad either ahead of them or behind them. The Sparkle Blasts fire in a beam and when they make contact with a hard surface, they explode. If The Goblins are right behind the Bats going even at half their speed, they'll take the Bats out (i.e. when Goblin killed himself). If the Bats go into buildings the Goblins will throw Bombs in the buildings that will not only wipe out the entire floor, take the whole building down on the Bats. Demo can even set up a ring of fire around the Bats making them unable to go anywhere.
Yes, because the bats don't deal with lunatics with bombs and flying metas every third Tuesday. And make up your mind, are the goblins high above them or flying right behind them? If you have them flying right behind them, they're open to everything I suggested (look up if you need a refresher), and you haven't explained how they won't be affected by deafening and disorienting sound and blinding lights while they're flying at their incredible speeds. The bats are adept at using their opponents strengths against them to overcome "superior" foes. And the Goblins won't know where the bats are. Remember the smoke pellets and flashbangs? Those prevent the goblins from seeing what the Bats are doing or where they're going. It's not just flying freaks dropping bombs and shooting lasers at unsuspecting humans. I think you're underestimating the bats (just like the Goblins would).
I think that if they had this carpet of smoke that the Goblins wouldnt be able to see through, the Goblins would do just what you said would be the only way for them to win. They would fly even higher and then they would drop enough ordinance so no one could dodge any of the explosions. Then they would wait for the smoke to clear and count the dead bat bodies.
But I see the fight going either way. I think this is a fairly even matchup. If they're in a city environment it helps the bats because the Goblins have more obstacles to watch out for but it also brings in the opportunity to use any normals who might be around or to toss cars and other large objects around to shake things up.
To me this fight's a tossup.
Forever says:
"I think that if they had this carpet of smoke that the Goblins wouldnt be able to see through, the Goblins would do just what you said would be the only way for them to win. They would fly even higher and then they would drop enough ordinance so no one could dodge any of the explosions. Then they would wait for the smoke to clear and count the dead bat bodies.But I see the fight going either way. I think this is a fairly even matchup. If they're in a city environment it helps the bats because the Goblins have more obstacles to watch out for but it also brings in the opportunity to use any normals who might be around or to toss cars and other large objects around to shake things up.To me this fight's a tossup."
My original post:
"I can see the bat family taking it... "
At first I didn't think they'd win every time or easily (still don't), but the more I went over it, the less I saw why it would be so unlikely for them to win. At first I just thought they had a chance, but the Goblins would win the majority, but now I think they have at least an equal shot if not better.
Post Edited:2007-08-04 16:29:13
Buckshot says:
"Forever says:"I think that if they had this carpet of smoke that the Goblins wouldnt be able to see through, the Goblins would do just what you said would be the only way for them to win. They would fly even higher and then they would drop enough ordinance so no one could dodge any of the explosions. Then they would wait for the smoke to clear and count the dead bat bodies. But I see the fight going either way. I think this is a fairly even matchup. If they're in a city environment it helps the bats because the Goblins have more obstacles to watch out for but it also brings in the opportunity to use any normals who might be around or to toss cars and other large objects around to shake things up. To me this fight's a tossup."
My original post:"I can see the bat family taking it... "At first I didn't think they'd win every time or easily (still don't), but the more I went over it, the less I saw why it would be so unlikely for them to win. At first I just thought they had a chance, but the Goblins would win the majority, but now I think they have at least an equal shot if not better.
Post Edited:2007-08-04 16:29:13"
Excellent. Then dont let me interrupt. EC's actually doing a decent job arguing his side and of course you've got your side locked down. I was leaning towards the Goblins too but you've brought me into seeing this as a 50/50 fight.
Buckshot says:
"Yes, because the bats don't deal with lunatics with bombs and flying metas every third Tuesday. And make up your mind, are the goblins high above them or flying right behind them? If you have them flying right behind them, they're open to everything I suggested (look up if you need a refresher), and you haven't explained how they won't be affected by deafening and disorienting sound and blinding lights while they're flying at their incredible speeds. The bats are adept at using their opponents strengths against them to overcome "superior" foes. And the Goblins won't know where the bats are. Remember the smoke pellets and flashbangs? Those prevent the goblins from seeing what the Bats are doing or where they're going. It's not just flying freaks dropping bombs and shooting lasers at unsuspecting humans. I think you're underestimating the bats (just like the Goblins would)."
I said chasing them on closely to show how even if they were close to the ground how the fight would go. But you keep saying how if they're chasing the Bats that the Bats Squad would be able to pull off throwing all these gadgets. They won't have time. The minute the fight starts, The Goblin's will just fly in quick and impale them with the Green Goblin spike (as previously stated), fire sparklers, bombs, or darkness, just giving them too much. If they stay in the air, they'll be able to clip them off as well. The Bats can't run forever, and they can't out run the Goblins. Demo's glider shoots hellfire from it, and Demo fires Hellfire from his hands. The others have a wider variety of weapons, their physical stats are superhuman, they're moving around on terribly fast machines. And Like I said, Demo can put the Bat Squad in a ring of fire, and bombard them. The Goblins can even unleash a relentless assault with the Sparkle beams and pumpkin bombs. The Bat Squad isn't going to be able to hide, or run.
Nothing you've said here is different from what you've said before. And yes, the gliders are fast, but unless they're starting off right in front of the bats, they have plenty of time to pull out items and toss them around. That is what they DO. They stay alive by being fast enough to dodge cars, bullets, rockets, superhumans, explosions, etc and get out weapons of their own. The Goblins are not rocketing down on them faster than they can react, and you still haven't told me how the goblins are avoiding all the things I've mentioned for two pages.
Buckshot says:
"Nothing you've said here is different from what you've said before. And yes, the gliders are fast, but unless they're starting off right in front of the bats, they have plenty of time to pull out items and toss them around. That is what they DO. They stay alive by being fast enough to dodge cars, bullets, rockets, superhumans, explosions, etc and get out weapons of their own. The Goblins are not rocketing down on them faster than they can react, and you still haven't told me how the goblins are avoiding *all* the things I've mentioned for two pages. "
I've mentioned it a few times. The Goblins would stay in the air moving at high speeds and manuvering themselves around the Bat Squad. Hell, they can stay 70 feet in the air, and fire off Sparkler blasts. In front of the Bats, and the rest of the Goblins come out from behind and bombard the Bats.
So they're flying around at ridiculously high speeds and all of a sudden they're blind and being blasted by deafening sound and the air is filling with all sorts of other bat-weapons and they just shake all this off with no ill effects? They don't crash into anything, they don't slow down to prevent from crashing, they just go on shooting sparkler blasts and tossing bombs like nothing happened to them? And when the Bats aren't even there anymore because they've gone into or on top of buildings, used grappling guns to maybe even get on top of a glider, started flipping around their attacks, or just got out of the open, the Goblins are still attacking and not having any problems? You're not even considering all the damage the damage the bats can do, you're saying the goblins will just fly above the bats (so high that they can't see or hear them) and drop bombs on targets that won't be trying to avoid them and don't have the skill (and experience) to do so.
Eternal Chaos says:
"Green Goblin (Norman) Green Goblin (Harry) Hobgoblin Jack O Lantern Demogoblin vs. Batman Robin Batgirl Nightwing"
BATMAN! 'NUFF SAID!
The Bat-Family would put up a good fight but I think the Goblins are going to get it. With the advantage of Powers, and gliders, the Bats are a little out match though they are better at hand to hand combat. I don't think they could actually do that much damage to a goblin through punch if and when they lay one and one good goblin bomb would take out a Bat-member. It would be a good fight though.
Buckshot says:
"So they're flying around at ridiculously high speeds and all of a sudden they're blind and being blasted by deafening sound and the air is filling with all sorts of other bat-weapons and they just shake all this off with no ill effects? They don't crash into anything, they don't slow down to prevent from crashing, they just go on shooting sparkler blasts and tossing bombs like nothing happened to them? And when the Bats aren't even there anymore because they've gone into or on top of buildings, used grappling guns to maybe even get on top of a glider, started flipping around their attacks, or just got out of the open, the Goblins are still attacking and not having any problems? You're not even considering all the damage the damage the bats can do, you're saying the goblins will just fly above the bats (so high that they can't see or hear them) and drop bombs on targets that won't be trying to avoid them and don't have the skill (and experience) to do so."
I never said ridiculously high speeds, I just said at high speeds. They can just be moving fast enough to surround the Bats. Lets say the Bats throw a few smoke pellets, The Goblins would most likely fly backwards and fire Sparklers at the ground to cause an explosion to get at the Bats. The Bats can't teleport so all they'll be able to do is run into a building or behind one. The Goblins lob bombs into the building not only blowing it up but causing it to explode destroying any and all escape routes for the Bats.
It doesn't matter if their speeds can be called "ridiculous" or not, they're zooming around on rockets and all of a sudden they're blind (they might avoid clouds of smoke but they're not dodging flash bangs) and overcome with sound (not dodging sonics either) and you don't think anything will happen to them? You haven't been able to explain this away so you haven't addressed it any of the times I've brought it up. They will be unable to fly straight, let alone attack with anything resembling accuracy. I think they'll be crashing left and right, or at least so distracted that they won't be prepared for all the bats' other gadgets flying at them. And who says the bats need to teleport to avoid damage? They avoid bullets and bombs on a daily basis without a teleporter, why would they need one now?
Buckshot says:
"It doesn't matter if their speeds can be called "ridiculous" or not, they're zooming around on rockets and all of a sudden they're blind (they might avoid clouds of smoke but they're not dodging flash bangs) and overcome with sound (not dodging sonics either) and you don't think *anything* will happen to them? You haven't been able to explain this away so you haven't addressed it any of the times I've brought it up. They will be unable to fly straight, let alone attack with anything resembling accuracy. I think they'll be crashing left and right, or at *least* so distracted that they won't be prepared for all the bats' other gadgets flying at them. And who says the bats need to teleport to avoid damage? They avoid bullets and bombs on a daily basis without a teleporter, why would they need one now? "
I've told you about how the can avoid the flashbangs and sonics. staying out of the effected area. Either that or they can move around the building silently and steadily so they can sneak up on the bats. Or Demo can just have a Bat roast by firing tons of hell fire at them. Or tons of Darkness bombs. All the Goblins need to do is stay out of the effected area and they'll be ok. The have the same kind of bombs so they can do the same thing to the bats as well.
The "affected area" is aural and visual range. They'd have to be far enough away so that they couldn't hear or see anything near the bats. They wouldn't have to be completely out of that range because the intensity wears down the further out, but still, if they're close enough to have any kind of attack with a chance of hitting, they'd be exposed to the Bats' attacks long range attacks. Are you suggesting that they avoid attack by being so far away that their own attacks have little to no chance of hitting? And it's not even like flash bangs and sonics are their only methods of attacking from a distance either. I've listed many other tactics for attacking at a distance in my other posts. Most were area affecting weapons, but just because the gliders move fast doesn't mean that small projectiles won't be effective to. The bats are masters of the thrown object (not bullseye level of accuracy, but more than capable of hitting Goblins). Batman himself has taken down armored helicopters with pocket knives and used well placed batarangs to down many speeding (in the air or on the ground) enemies. And no, the Goblins and their flaming rockets are not sneaking up on the embodiment of stealth. It's more likely that they'd attempt to sneak up on a bat and fall into a quickly crafted trap of nearly invisible tripwires and hidden gadgets. Yes, the goblins can deal tremendous damage, covering the area with bombs and fire(as is stated in one of my previous posts), but if they're so out of range that the bats' weapons can't harm them, their just firing blind at targets that can easily avoid them. Even if they get closer (exposing themselves to attack) the Bats can cover the area in smoke, hiding their movements. You can keep saying they have the same types of bombs but how often do they use them? Their MO is tossing bombs, whereas the Bats use these weapons regularly. They also use them while they're in the area, meaning they would have protection against them while the Goblins, who attack from a distance where their own weapons don't affect them, are less likely to need or have the same defenses. If they both have the same weapons and one side has much more experience using them as well as defending against them, that side has the advantage when it comes to their weaponry.
Buckshot says:
"The "affected area" is aural and visual range. They'd have to be far enough away so that they couldn't hear or see anything near the bats. They wouldn't have to be *completely* out of that range because the intensity wears down the further out, but still, if they're close enough to have any kind of attack with a chance of hitting, they'd be exposed to the Bats' attacks long range attacks. Are you suggesting that they avoid attack by being so far away that their own attacks have little to no chance of hitting? And it's not even like flash bangs and sonics are their only methods of attacking from a distance either. I've listed many other tactics for attacking at a distance in my other posts. Most were area affecting weapons, but just because the gliders move fast doesn't mean that small projectiles won't be effective to. The bats are masters of the thrown object (not bullseye level of accuracy, but more than capable of hitting Goblins). Batman himself has taken down armored helicopters with pocket knives and used well placed batarangs to down many speeding (in the air or on the ground) enemies. And no, the Goblins and their flaming rockets are not sneaking up on the embodiment of stealth. It's more likely that they'd *attempt* to sneak up on a bat and fall into a quickly crafted trap of nearly invisible tripwires and hidden gadgets. Yes, the goblins can deal tremendous damage, covering the area with bombs and fire(as is stated in one of my previous posts), but if they're so out of range that the bats' weapons can't harm them, their just firing blind at targets that can easily avoid them. Even if they get closer (exposing themselves to attack) the Bats can cover the area in smoke, hiding their movements. You can keep saying they have the same types of bombs but how often do they use them? Their MO is tossing bombs, whereas the Bats use these weapons regularly. They also use them while they're in the area, meaning *they* would have protection against them while the Goblins, who attack from a distance where their own weapons don't affect them, are less likely to need or have the same defenses. If they both have the same weapons and one side has much more experience using them as well as defending against them, that side has the advantage when it comes to their weaponry. "
Would the Bat Squad even have time to pull off these tricks if they're getting attacked on all sides by the Goblins? If the Goblins are firing an all out attack on the Bat Squad, the Bat Squad has nowhere to go. But look, I'm going to sleep, I'll continue this in the morning. Farewell.
Taking a weapon out of a belt isn't much of a trick and it doesn't take a lot of time, especially for the bats since they do it nearly 24/7. Maybe that's a slight exaggeration, but they do it every day, while dodging bullets, fighting skilled martial artists, taking on hoards of assassins, in the middle of exploding buildings, etc, etc. It's not hard for them, and not only that, the goblins won't expect any of it. And I've gone over an "all out attack". If they try it while they're close, they're subject to the full range of weaponry the bats have, and if they try it from far away, they have little chance of actually hitting the bats. Even carpet bombing the area doesn't get rid of every place for the bats to hide (using their environment, even a damaged one, is another thing they are good at and have years of experience doing). You make it seem like the Goblins will just stroll up on their gliders, drop bombs and be done with it, and as I've said and tried to explain, it's just not that simple. On the flip side though, how about this, all the bats take a single batarang (batman gets two to deal with the extra goblin), R or escrima stick and just knock a flying goblin out. They've all hit faster and smaller targets before, it should be easy. Boom, there you go, fight's over.
Buckshot says:
"Taking a weapon out of a belt isn't much of a trick and it doesn't take a lot of time, especially for the bats since they do it nearly 24/7. Maybe that's a *slight* exaggeration, but they do it every day, while dodging bullets, fighting skilled martial artists, taking on hoards of assassins, in the middle of exploding buildings, etc, etc. It's not hard for them, and not only that, the goblins won't expect any of it. And I've gone over an "all out attack". If they try it while they're close, they're subject to the full range of weaponry the bats have, and if they try it from far away, they have little chance of actually hitting the bats. Even carpet bombing the area doesn't get rid of every place for the bats to hide (using their environment, even a damaged one, is another thing they are good at and have years of experience doing). You make it seem like the Goblins will just stroll up on their gliders, drop bombs and be done with it, and as I've said and tried to explain, it's just not that simple. On the flip side though, how about this, all the bats take a single batarang (batman gets two to deal with the extra goblin), R or escrima stick and just knock a flying goblin out. They've all hit faster and smaller targets before, it should be easy. Boom, there you go, fight's over."
But now your making it seem like the Goblins are slow and wouldn't be smart enough to know when to go in for the attack and out for escape from the Bats attack. If Goblins are flying around firing exploding sparkler blasts around the Bats, the Bats will with either end up flying back into another sparkler blast or bomb. You're forgetting how manueverable the Goblins are on their Gliders. The Bats'll throw batarangs, ok, The Goblins will get out the way. The Bats throw the batarangs incredibly fast, but the moment the Goblins see the Bats reach for one, The Goblins will either toss a bomb, or fire a sparkler. Or Demo'll shoot fire at them. Like I said, if the Goblins are firing sparklers right next to Bats, the Bats will get caught by either the explosions, or will have to stop and get by another.
I'm not making the Goblins seem slow. The bats have easily taken down fast moving targets before. Tossing batarangs in the wheels of speeding motorcycles, hitting the barely exposed propeller axles of racing helicopters, nailing flying metas, knocking arrows and other projectiles (I've even seen bullets) out of the air, disarming multiple opponents with a single throw (not so much a speed thing, but definitely accuracy since the enemies don't always line their weapons up and make it easy), taking out low-level (when compared to those like Flash, but still fast) speedsters, etc. The Goblins don't have to be slow or stupid to get hit, the bats are just that skilled with their tools. And are you overlooking my previous post? Also, you have them swooping in again (ignoring the sense-disrupting weapons of the bats) to do their attacks, and like I said before, attacking from a distance has its problems too. Fire and explosives are not things the Bats can't deal with (especially with fireproof costumes and body armor plus their learned ability to avoid things like that on a nightly basis). If the Goblins are close enough to aim well, they're close enough to be exposed to the things I've been saying for the last few pages. Answer me straight up, what will the Goblins do when they're flying around as fast as they can and all of a sudden they're hit by insane levels of sound? What will they do when they're about to shoot or bomb a bat and they get hit with a flash of blinding light? They won't be bothered by these things? There's no likelihood that they'll crash? They'll still be aware enough to avoid the other things the bats can throw? How will they take aim on multiple targets they can't see (smoke pellets can cover the area as I've been saying)? Will they dive into the smoke (and traps) to find the bats? Will they fly high above to attempt to spot them, and when they can't, just drop bombs randomly?
Buckshot says:
"I'm not making the Goblins seem slow. The bats have easily taken down fast moving targets before. Tossing batarangs in the wheels of speeding motorcycles, hitting the barely exposed propeller axles of racing helicopters, nailing flying metas, knocking arrows and other projectiles (I've even seen bullets) out of the air, disarming multiple opponents with a single throw (not so much a speed thing, but definitely accuracy since the enemies don't always line their weapons up and make it easy), taking out low-level (when compared to those like Flash, but still fast) speedsters, etc. The Goblins don't have to be slow or stupid to get hit, the bats are just that skilled with their tools. And are you overlooking my previous post? Also, you have them swooping in again (ignoring the sense-disrupting weapons of the bats) to do their attacks, and like I said before, attacking from a distance has its problems too. Fire and explosives are not things the Bats can't deal with (especially with fireproof costumes and body armor plus their learned ability to avoid things like that on a nightly basis). If the Goblins are close enough to aim well, they're close enough to be exposed to the things I've been saying for the last few pages. Answer me straight up, what will the Goblins do when they're flying around as fast as they can and all of a sudden they're hit by insane levels of sound? What will they do when they're about to shoot or bomb a bat and they get hit with a flash of blinding light? They won't be bothered by these things? There's no likelihood that they'll crash? They'll still be aware enough to avoid the other things the bats can throw? How will they take aim on multiple targets they can't see (smoke pellets can cover the area as I've been saying)? Will they dive into the smoke (and traps) to find the bats? Will they fly high above to attempt to spot them, and when they can't, just drop bombs randomly?"
The Goblins don't need to aim perfectly in order hit the Bats with a beam that explodes. if the beam explodes, the Bats are going to get caught off guard. If the Bats use sonics or flashbangs, it is possible that the Goblins can crash, but a more likely thing happening is that the Goblins will either stop, or go in reverse but continue firing sparklers. The Bats will try smoke bombs, the Goblins will fly into the air and look for them. If they can't find the Bats, Demo would probably start firing hellfire all over the place or the others will end up lobbing bombs into buildings. If the Goblins do end up going off their Gliders by any of the bats gadgets (which I seriously doubt) Than the it'll go into combat. The Goblins are all superhuman with superhuman stength, speed and endurance. Not to mention they're all insane and willing to die to kill who they need to. That insanity can prove to be an edge. Hell, the Goblins can fire sparklers in one on one combat it'll damage them, no doubt, but it'll damage the Bats alot more. Goblin also has a paralysing needle. OK, the bats costumes might be able to deal fire for a little while, but not forever meanwhile Demo's supply in limitless.
Batman's a good strategist, he's fought people like this before. But with all the chaos, and having teammates to co-ordinate, it'd be harder than usual (I can't recall a specific time Batman has fought a group of people with this much capacity for destruction). In a city environment (especially Gotham), I can see the Bats taking it. In a large area with not a lot of cover (desert, open field, etc.), the Goblins could probably take it. Like Forever said, it's a toss-up, and I think in the end it comes down to the environment they're in.
Eternal Chaos says:
"The Goblins don't need to aim perfectly in order hit the Bats with a beam that explodes. if the beam explodes, the Bats are going to get caught off guard. If the Bats use sonics or flashbangs, it is possible that the Goblins can crash, but a more likely thing happening is that the Goblins will either stop, or go in reverse but continue firing sparklers. The Bats will try smoke bombs, the Goblins will fly into the air and look for them. If they can't find the Bats, Demo would probably start firing hellfire all over the place or the others will end up lobbing bombs into buildings. If the Goblins do end up going off their Gliders by any of the bats gadgets (which I seriously doubt) Than the it'll go into combat. The Goblins are all superhuman with superhuman stength, speed and endurance. Not to mention they're all insane and willing to die to kill who they need to. That insanity can prove to be an edge. Hell, the Goblins can fire sparklers in one on one combat it'll damage them, no doubt, but it'll damage the Bats alot more. Goblin also has a paralysing needle. OK, the bats costumes might be able to deal fire for a little while, but not forever meanwhile Demo's supply in limitless. "
The bats avoid explosions all the time. I'm not saying they don't get hit or caught up in them on occasion, but they are more than capable of dodging explosions and debris, especially when they Goblins won't know where to hit anyway. It's not only possible that they'll crash, it's almost assured. With them flying as fast as you've been saying, loosing vision and being unable to think straight will result in a crash. I don't expect you to see that though, seeing as it took you 2 or 3 pages for you to even put into words the possibility of them crashing. And even if they stop or slow down, that leaves them open to more attacks. I'm more than sure that the bats can hit them with projectiles(batarangs, explosives and others), nail them with grappling hooks tied to buildings and ensnare them with bolas even with them flying normally, so with them stopping or slowing down, they're easy prey. And they can continue to shoot all they want. If they can't see, there's very little chance that they'll even be close to bats that can hide at street level, in buildings, or use swinglines to get from ground to rooftops and building to building in seconds. And I've already gone over what happens off their gliders. Being insane and super powered makes them dangerous, but intelligence, skill, gadgets, use of the environment and teamwork gives the bats advantages too. Insane metas are nothing new to the Bats. Bane, Clayface, Croc, Grundy, Scarebeast (which Bruce took down unarmed, and unprepared btw), Man Bat, Amygdala, Shaggy Man, Grodd and other intelligent gorillas, evil versions of the JLA (with and without prep), robots, Amazo (Batman and Nightwing once took him out on their own without prep), Omacs, endless monsters, Starfire (mentioning her because Nightwing has easily avoided all her energy blast attacks on several occasions), Blockbuster (named for his ability to easily take down large buildings), white martians, etc, etc, etc. Really, the Goblins aren't anything the bats haven't seen many times before. Their ability to attack from range is their biggest strength, but even that can be dealt with.
Sparda says:
"Batman's a good strategist, he's fought people like this before. But with all the chaos, and having teammates to co-ordinate, it'd be harder than usual (I can't recall a specific time Batman has fought a group of people with this much capacity for destruction). In a city environment (especially Gotham), I can see the Bats taking it. In a large area with not a lot of cover (desert, open field, etc.), the Goblins could probably take it. Like Forever said, it's a toss-up, and I think in the end it comes down to the environment they're in."
"Having teammates to co-ordinate" isn't a big thing for the bat family. If it were Batman and group he didn't know, it would be a problem, but not only does he train with his team and has fought with them for years, but they are all capable on their own and know how to handle themselves in these kinds of situations. I can recall a few times. Batman has taken down a group of white martians on his own, rooms full of gorillas, multiple clayfaces (or one split up), gangs of generic superpowered thugs, Amazons and others. He's been able to do that on his own, imagine him with a team of people nearly as skilled as him and trained to work well together. I think the environment is important too for the reason you stated, but since both sides are normally seen in cities, I assumed that was where they were.
Buckshot says:
"Eternal Chaos says:" The Goblins don't need to aim perfectly in order hit the Bats with a beam that explodes. if the beam explodes, the Bats are going to get caught off guard. If the Bats use sonics or flashbangs, it is possible that the Goblins can crash, but a more likely thing happening is that the Goblins will either stop, or go in reverse but continue firing sparklers. The Bats will try smoke bombs, the Goblins will fly into the air and look for them. If they can't find the Bats, Demo would probably start firing hellfire all over the place or the others will end up lobbing bombs into buildings. If the Goblins do end up going off their Gliders by any of the bats gadgets (which I seriously doubt) Than the it'll go into combat. The Goblins are all superhuman with superhuman stength, speed and endurance. Not to mention they're all insane and willing to die to kill who they need to. That insanity can prove to be an edge. Hell, the Goblins can fire sparklers in one on one combat it'll damage them, no doubt, but it'll damage the Bats alot more. Goblin also has a paralysing needle. OK, the bats costumes might be able to deal fire for a little while, but not forever meanwhile Demo's supply in limitless. "The bats avoid explosions all the time. I'm not saying they don't get hit or caught up in them on occasion, but they are more than capable of dodging explosions and debris, especially when they Goblins won't know where to hit anyway. It's not only possible that they'll crash, it's almost assured. With them flying as fast as you've been saying, loosing vision and being unable to think straight will result in a crash. I don't expect you to see that though, seeing as it took you 2 or 3 pages for you to even put into words the *possibility* of them crashing. And even if they stop or slow down, that leaves them open to more attacks. I'm more than sure that the bats can hit them with projectiles(batarangs, explosives and others), nail them with grappling hooks tied to buildings and ensnare them with bolas even with them flying normally, so with them stopping or slowing down, they're easy prey. And they can continue to shoot all they want. If they can't see, there's very little chance that they'll even be close to bats that can hide at street level, in buildings, or use swinglines to get from ground to rooftops and building to building in seconds. And I've already gone over what happens off their gliders. Being insane and super powered makes them dangerous, but intelligence, skill, gadgets, use of the environment and teamwork gives the bats advantages too. Insane metas are nothing new to the Bats. Bane, Clayface, Croc, Grundy, Scarebeast (which Bruce took down unarmed, and unprepared btw), Man Bat, Amygdala, Shaggy Man, Grodd and other intelligent gorillas, evil versions of the JLA (with and without prep), robots, Amazo (Batman and Nightwing once took him out on their own *without prep*), Omacs, endless monsters, Starfire (mentioning her because Nightwing has easily avoided all her energy blast attacks on several occasions), Blockbuster (named for his ability to easily take down large buildings), white martians, etc, etc, etc. Really, the Goblins aren't anything the bats haven't seen *many* times before. Their ability to attack from range is their biggest strength, but even that can be dealt with. Sparda says:"Batman's a good strategist, he's fought people like this before. But with all the chaos, and having teammates to co-ordinate, it'd be harder than usual (I can't recall a specific time Batman has fought a group of people with this much capacity for destruction). In a city environment (especially Gotham), I can see the Bats taking it. In a large area with not a lot of cover (desert, open field, etc.), the Goblins could probably take it. Like Forever said, it's a toss-up, and I think in the end it comes down to the environment they're in.""Having teammates to co-ordinate" isn't a big thing for the bat family. If it were Batman and group he didn't know, it would be a problem, but not only does he train with his team and has fought with them for years, but they are all capable on their own and know how to handle themselves in these kinds of situations. I can recall a few times. Batman has taken down a group of white martians on his own, rooms full of gorillas, multiple clayfaces (or one split up), gangs of generic superpowered thugs, Amazons and others. He's been able to do that on his own, imagine him with a team of people nearly as skilled as him and trained to work well together. I think the environment is important too for the reason you stated, but since both sides are normally seen in cities, I assumed that was where they were. "
Okay, the Bats are used to dealing with explosions, but there'll be a total of 6 sparklers being fired over and over again right in the vicinity of the bats eventually more sooner than later the bats will get caught and once that happens, they're dead because either sparklers will hit them, bombs will be tossed at them or they'll get ignited. So what if the other Goblins fall off their Gliders? Demogoblin will just back on his while the others are keeping the bats busy and lob dark bombs down below taking the bats down. If the bats are paralysed, they're dead.
Ok, let's look at the first sentence.
"Okay, the Bats are used to dealing with explosions,"
Yes, they are. They can also throw out some of their own. The Goblins aren't the only ones who can blow stuff up.
"but there'll be a total of 6 sparklers being fired over and over again right in the vicinity of the bats"
So despite being blinded, confused, and hurtling through the air (or stumbling around after crashing), the Goblins will continue to maintain some semblance of accuracy? They'll be shooting "in the vicinity" of the bats? Really? The Bats can dodge attacks on their own, find places to hide, use their grappling guns to stay above the Goblins (who won't expect the Bats to be anywhere but street level, so no need to shoot up anyway), and find other ways to NOT be shot at. The Goblins are more likely to shoot each other than hit a Bat.
"eventually more sooner than later the bats will get caught and once that happens,"
Will they get caught? As mentioned, the Goblins' accuracy will be in the toilet, and even if it weren't, the Bats aren't going to sit around and get hit. While they're dodging (like they dodge bullets nearly every night btw) they'll be attacking too, using the various methods I've mentioned in my previous posts and possibly more.
"they're dead because either sparklers will hit them, bombs will be tossed at them or they'll get ignited."
Direct hits (assuming there are any, see above) will deal damage, but consider the defense the bat suits provide. They've defended against direct hits from super humans, cutting damage from Omacs, repeated explosions, bullets shot from point blank or from sniper rifles, and more. Don't take this to mean that the Bats never get hurt through their suits or that the suits never get damaged (that's foolishness and I'd never try to say otherwise), but even when the bats do get messed up by something despite the protection their suits provide, they're always fit enough to keep fighting. It's not just the suits, the bats themselves know how to avoid damage, and together, I really don't see why the few explosions that get close are going to devastate the team. Maybe they lose a bat, but I really don't see explosions being the end of the team.
That thing about Demogoblin, are you saying he's not affected by the things that I've mentioned? You're saying he'll just get back on his glider as if what works once won't work again or that he'll even be able to fly afterwards. It's not like once he crashes (which in and of itself is an attack in that it's caused by the Bats and deals damage to the Goblins) he'll suddenly stop being blind and deaf. The sonics will still be going and the affects of the flashbangs and the smoke covered street will still be there. And that's just if he's not attacked while he's trying to get back in the air without hitting anything.
I'm pretty sure I've said all I can and now I'm just starting to repeat myself. I've convinced some people (or at least shown why the Bats have an equal shot) but you won't budge in your opinion that the Goblins win and the Bats can't. I doubt going over the same stuff again will change anything so I think I'm done.
Post Edited:2007-08-05 23:37:07
Buckshot says:
"Ok, let's look at the first sentence. *"Okay, the Bats are used to dealing with explosions,"* Yes, they are. *"but there'll be a total of 6 sparklers being fired over and over again right in the vicinity of the bats"* So despite being blinded, confused, and hurtling through the air (or stumbling around after crashing), the Goblins will continue to maintain some semblance of accuracy? They'll be shooting "in the vicinity" of the bats? Really? The Bats can dodge attacks on their own, find places to hide, use their grappling guns to stay above the Goblins (who won't expect the Bats to be anywhere but street level, so no need to shoot up anyway), and find other ways to NOT be shot at. The Goblins are more likely to shoot each other than hit a Bat. *"eventually more sooner than later the bats will get caught and once that happens,"* Will they get caught? As mentioned, the Goblins' accuracy will be in the toilet, and even if it weren't, the Bats aren't going to sit around and get hit. While they're dodging (like they dodge bullets nearly every night btw) they'll be attacking too, using the various methods I've mentioned in my previous posts and possibly more. *"they're dead because either sparklers will hit them, bombs will be tossed at them or they'll get ignited."* Direct hits (assuming there are any, see above) will deal damage, but consider the defense the bat suits provide. They've defended against direct hits from super humans, cutting damage from Omacs, repeated explosions, bullets shot from point blank or from sniper rifles, and more. Don't take this to mean that the Bats never get hurt through their suits or that the suits never get damaged (that's foolishness and I'd never try to say otherwise), but even when the bats do get messed up by something despite the protection their suits provide, they're always fit enough to keep fighting. It's not just the suits, the bats themselves know how to avoid damage, and together, I really don't see why the few explosions that get close are going to devastate the team. Maybe they lose a bat, but I really don't see explosions being the end of the team. That thing about Demogoblin, are you saying he's not affected by the things that I've mentioned? You're saying he'll just get back on his glider as if what works once won't work again or that he'll even be able to fly afterwards. It's not like once he crashes (which in and of itself is an attack in that it's caused by the Bats and deals damage to the Goblins) he'll suddenly stop being blind and deaf. The sonics will still be going and the affects of the flashbangs and the smoke covered street will still be there. And that's just if he's not attacked while he's trying to get back in the air without hitting anything. I'm pretty sure I've said all I can and now I'm just starting to repeat myself. I've convinced some people (or at least shown why the Bats have an equal shot) but you won't budge in your opinion that the Goblins win and the Bats can't. I doubt going over the same stuff again will change anything so I think I'm done."
I'm not saying the Bats won't win, I'm saying why I think the Goblins would win and have a better chance at doing so. The Goblins would stay behind the Bats and above firing at them and dodging the attacks by the Bats. I'm saying that if the Goblins fall off their gliders due to the wires you mentioned, while the other Goblins are keeping the Bats busy Demo would likely get back on his hellfire glider, or just lob Dark bombs at the bats.
Meh. My argument still stands.
Well I guess we both stick behind our arguments. Truce?
Goblins take this
goblins probably
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