#201 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

you call that durability i call that pis

I've seen a fair amount of stupidity in this thread, but it isn't Plot Induced. Wally has shown high durability for decades, and you still haven't posted a shred of valid evidence to the contrary. I've posted scans to back up every single one of my clams, and the best you can come up with is a bogus wail of "pis!"

Do you not believe that it's consistent? Maybe if I post a couple of more showings, then?

Tanks a hit from Deathstroke's blast staff, which is powerful enough to blast through stone walls and oneshot helicopters:

Tanking a hit from Mongul, the guy who beats Superman up with sheer physical strength:

Shrugs off Zoom tackling him across half of the globe:

And if you read the text in the second scan, Wally says that their fight has circled the globe a dozen times in less than a second. For reference, light can only circle the globe 7.5 times in a second. So that showcases Wally's ability to fight at FTL speeds, as well as his durability.

To sum up, your argument isn't a terrible one. However, that's only because you haven't actually presented an argument. You've posted out of context and downright irrelevant scans, but you haven't presented anything to prove any of your claims. You've denied the relevant, canon, and contextual evidence provided you whenever it contradicts your presuppositions regarding Flash. Most of those presuppositions have been shown to be totally false. If you aren't going to post a reasoned and valid argument, then you would do well to bow out before losing any respect the Vine has left for you.

#202 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@jackofspades: Blitz, and speed steal.

@spiderbuck said:

I'm not convinced that Flash could steal a matter manipulator's speed. See, it works both ways. In the same vein, I would like to see Flash use speed steal on a God before I am convinced it would work on the likes of Thor. I also think Sentry would be able to tank IMPs, as he's tanked planet busting blows in the past against WWH.

Fight goes something like this... being the fastest of the three, Sentry engages. Flash attempts speed steal, and Sentry rearranges his molecules and is back to normal. As Sentry and Flash mix it up, Thor turns Flash into FrogFlash. Gladiator steps on him. The end.

Yet none of this is evidence for Sentry's supposed immunity to the speed steal. I'm not saying he couldn't counter it, I'm saying you haven't provided any evidence to support that.

Secondly none of WWH's blows were planet busters against Sentry.

Lastly, being the faster of the FOUR, Flash IMP blitz's them before they can form a thought ;-)

what give me a break sentry can control molecules is a immunity and hulk blows are planet busters

#203 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck: I'm far from an authority on Sentry, but I don't think that matter manipulation is going to prevent a speed-steal. You could make an argument based on Sentry's "split-second-in-front-of-the-timeline" thing and try to relate it to Flash never using speedsteal against Zoom, but that's not what you're arguing. Speedsteal removes all of the kinetic energy from an opponent, adding it to Flash's own. Why would rearranging one's molecules grant them additional kinetic energy? Could Sentry even move his molecules if he had been totally immobilized, a la Inertia? I genuinely don't know, and I'm interested to hear what your take is.

#204 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@jackofspades said:

you call that durability i call that pis

I've seen a fair amount of stupidity in this thread, but it isn't Plot Induced. Wally has shown high durability for decades, and you still haven't posted a shred of valid evidence to the contrary. I've posted scans to back up every single one of my clams, and the best you can come up with is a bogus wail of "pis!"

Do you not believe that it's consistent? Maybe if I post a couple of more showings, then?

Tanks a hit from Deathstroke's blast staff, which is powerful enough to blast through stone walls and oneshot helicopters:

Tanking a hit from Mongul, the guy who beats Superman up with sheer physical strength:

Shrugs off Zoom tackling him across half of the globe:

And if you read the text in the second scan, Wally says that their fight has circled the globe a dozen times in less than a second. For reference, light can only circle the globe 7.5 times in a second. So that showcases Wally's ability to fight at FTL speeds, as well as his durability.

To sum up, your argument isn't a terrible one. However, that's only because you haven't actually presented an argument. You've posted out of context and downright irrelevant scans, but you haven't presented anything to prove any of your claims. You've denied the relevant, canon, and contextual evidence provided you whenever it contradicts your presuppositions regarding Flash. Most of those presuppositions have been shown to be totally false. If you aren't going to post a reasoned and valid argument, then you would do well to bow out before losing any respect the Vine has left for you.

well for one i could care less about respect here on vine it wont make or break me and second i think what you showed me is pis because i showed you flash getting cut by a ice icicle so i think the writers don't know what to do about flash

#205 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

well for one i could care less about respect here on vine it wont make or break me and second i think what you showed me is pis because i showed you flash getting cut by a ice icicle so i think the writers don't know what to do about flash

I have three problems with this. 1) I have posted 6 extremely impressive showings of durability, and you say they're all PIS because you've posted one showing that you find contradictory. 2) Lots of characters are durable against blunt trauma but less so against penetrative damage. Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Hulk, etc. So just because he can get cut or stabbed doesn't mean Wally can't tank hits from his opponents in this match. And 3) Do you remember where I said you hadn't posted any relevant scans? You just reposted a scan of New-52 Barry Allen. Different character, different universe, different Speed Force powering him... It has no relevance here. All of my points still stand.

#206 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@jackofspades said:

well for one i could care less about respect here on vine it wont make or break me and second i think what you showed me is pis because i showed you flash getting cut by a ice icicle so i think the writers don't know what to do about flash

I have two problems with this. 1) I have posted

and whats that flash is full of pis

#207 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

and whats that flash is full of pis

Name me an instance I've posted of Flash performing outside his normal levels of ability. You can't, because I've posted only feats that he's consistently shown the ability to replicate. So although you can shout PIS as much as you want, you have no legitimate basis to back up your claims.

Also, I edited my above post.

#208 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@jackofspades: Blitz, and speed steal.

@spiderbuck said:

I'm not convinced that Flash could steal a matter manipulator's speed. See, it works both ways. In the same vein, I would like to see Flash use speed steal on a God before I am convinced it would work on the likes of Thor. I also think Sentry would be able to tank IMPs, as he's tanked planet busting blows in the past against WWH.

Fight goes something like this... being the fastest of the three, Sentry engages. Flash attempts speed steal, and Sentry rearranges his molecules and is back to normal. As Sentry and Flash mix it up, Thor turns Flash into FrogFlash. Gladiator steps on him. The end.

Yet none of this is evidence for Sentry's supposed immunity to the speed steal. I'm not saying he couldn't counter it, I'm saying you haven't provided any evidence to support that.

Secondly none of WWH's blows were planet busters against Sentry.

Lastly, being the faster of the FOUR, Flash IMP blitz's them before they can form a thought ;-)

Hulk busted a planet in a domestic squabble with his wife and almost sunk the eastern seaboard with a few foot steps, of course him going all out against Sentry will produce that kind of force.

And these guys don't need to form a thought to produce the nano second reaction we know they are capable of. If you've ever been in a fight you know you aren't thinking "ok.... next I'm going to be using a rolling left counter to his over hand right" You don't think, you just act. One of them tags him, and the rest insta-murder.

Team wins.

#209 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@jackofspades said:

and whats that flash is full of pis

Name me an instance I've posted of Flash performing outside his normal levels of ability. You can't, because I've posted only feats that he's consistently shown the ability to replicate. So although you can shout PIS as much as you want, you have no legitimate basis to back up your claims.

Also, I edited my above post.

ok here is some more,flash can take a hit from mongul but get knock on his a** by capt cold and that looks like a blunt punch to me

#210 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@spiderbuck: Why would rearranging one's molecules grant them additional kinetic energy? Could Sentry even move his molecules if he had been totally immobilized, a la Inertia? I genuinely don't know, and I'm interested to hear what your take is.

All he has to do is convert to a gas form. The kinetic theory of gases describes a gas as a large number of molecules (or atoms), all of which are in constant random motion. By the time he solidifies Flash is frog splatter on the pavement.

#211 Posted by Saren (25918 posts) - - Show Bio

....Hulk literally said on two different occasions that he was holding back against Sentry.

And that's the wrong Flash in that Captain Cold scan, as usual......

Every day, I get to roll my eyes just a liiiitle bit harder. Sooner or later I'm going to go blind.

Moderator
#212 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck: His blows against Sentry were certain not planet busting strikes lol.

Yes, they do have to think to use their powers. Even when you're in a fight you are still thinking. If your mind stops thinking you are brain dead, and you won't be doing any more fighting lol.

I don't think he's going to go down in a single hit either. To start with they have to actually hit him. A difficult feat considering he's FTL anytime he feels like it. Secondly he has a certain level of durability, likely due to the protections of the speed force. Lastly he can vibrate through solid objects.

#213 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

....Hulk literally said on two different occasions that he was holding back against Sentry.

And that's the wrong Flash in that Captain Cold scan, as usual......

Every day, I get to roll my eyes just a liiiitle bit harder. Sooner or later I'm going to go blind.

Yet he was exerting himself so hard that he reverted back to human form?? Rolleyes.jpg is right...

And Thor said Wolverine was faster than him. Characters say dumb stuff sometimes. Doesn't make it true.

#214 Posted by clemj (817 posts) - - Show Bio

sentry creates a damn big power tornado,flash can't do shit against that

#215 Posted by Saren (25918 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane said:

....Hulk literally said on two different occasions that he was holding back against Sentry.

And that's the wrong Flash in that Captain Cold scan, as usual......

Every day, I get to roll my eyes just a liiiitle bit harder. Sooner or later I'm going to go blind.

Yet he was exerting himself so hard that he reverted back to human form?? Rolleyes.jpg is right...

And Thor said Wolverine was faster than him. Characters say dumb stuff sometimes. Doesn't make it true.

And transformed back a few seconds later without a problem, into a more powerful form to boot. He reverted back to human form because he was holding back and maintaining a lower power level, one that required a lower threshold of damage to force the change back to Banner. Like it or not, that's what happened. It was stated as such later on in Pak's run.

Don't be silly, Wolverine is faster than Thor.

Moderator
#216 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

And transformed back a few seconds later without a problem, into a more powerful form to boot. He reverted back to human form because he was holding back and maintaining a lower power level, one that required a lower threshold of damage to force the change back to Banner. Like it or not, that's what happened. It was stated as such later on in Pak's run.

The definition of Monday Morning WIS.

@CitizenBane said:

Don't be silly, Wolverine is faster than Thor.

Aaaaaaaand we are officially done here.

#217 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

....Hulk literally said on two different occasions that he was holding back against Sentry.

And that's the wrong Flash in that Captain Cold scan, as usual......

Every day, I get to roll my eyes just a liiiitle bit harder. Sooner or later I'm going to go blind.

i have to ask this but if you are not talking about my scan iam sorry.i know its not the same flash but the guy i was talking to said this Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting, and the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability. But since you're so entusiastic, I've tracked down a few scans of Wally demonstrating superhuman durability. THATS WHY I PUT THAT SCAN UP THERE TO HIM ALL FLASHES HAS THE SAME POWER SET SO IT DON'T MATTER

#218 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@spiderbuck: His blows against Sentry were certain not planet busting strikes lol.

Yes, they do have to think to use their powers. Even when you're in a fight you are still thinking. If your mind stops thinking you are brain dead, and you won't be doing any more fighting lol.

I don't think he's going to go down in a single hit either. To start with they have to actually hit him. A difficult feat considering he's FTL anytime he feels like it. Secondly he has a certain level of durability, likely due to the protections of the speed force. Lastly he can vibrate through solid objects.

Placing "lol" at the end of a response does not make your point incontrovertibly true. It's a passive aggressive, backhanded logical fallacy, and not a respectable way to carry on a discussion.

If you think you wait to think about how to react before reacting you obviously have never been in a fight and/or have absolutely zero understanding of how an athlete's body reacts instantaneously to external stimuli in the heat of the moment.

#219 Posted by iamthewolf88 (346 posts) - - Show Bio

A picosecond is 10 of a second. That is one trillionth, or one millionth of one millionth of a second, or 0.000 000 000 001 seconds. A picosecond is to one second as one second is to 31,700 years.

#220 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

ok here is some more,flash can take a hit from mongul but get knock on his a** by capt cold and that looks like a blunt punch to me

i have to ask this but if you are not talking about my scan iam sorry.i know its not the same flash but the guy i was talking to said this Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting, and the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability. But since you're so entusiastic, I've tracked down a few scans of Wally demonstrating superhuman durability. THATS WHY I PUT THAT SCAN UP THERE TO HIM ALL FLASHES HAS THE SAME POWER SET SO IT DON'T MATTER

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force. In addition, New-52 Barry has far less experience with his speed-force abilities than Wally does, so of course he's going to have worse durability showings. His speed showings are worse, too, as are nearly all of the showings New-52 Barry and Pre-52 Wally have in common. Pre-52 Wally is, at this point, far more proficient with his powers than New-52 Barry is. That's why it's not a valid feat. And again, you've only posted a single fight that puts his durability at a relatively low point. I've posted 6 instances of high durability. And to top it all off, Barry isn't even hurt in that scan. So you've really accomplished nothing, even if it was a relevant feat. Which it really isn't.

#221 Posted by Dredeuced (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane said:

And transformed back a few seconds later without a problem, into a more powerful form to boot. He reverted back to human form because he was holding back and maintaining a lower power level, one that required a lower threshold of damage to force the change back to Banner. Like it or not, that's what happened. It was stated as such later on in Pak's run.

The definition of Monday Morning WIS.

@CitizenBane said:

Don't be silly, Wolverine is faster than Thor.

Aaaaaaaand we are officially done here.

How is it WIS when, during the entire WWH saga, it was explicitly stated no less than a dozen times that Hulk was holding back so that he wouldn't kill anyone? Even when he saw his best friend get killed, he was forcing himself to hold back so he didn't destroy the world. WWHulk was super powerful, but also super smart and spent the entire arc only using necessary force to win, but not kill.

Online
#222 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

All he has to do is convert to a gas form. The kinetic theory of gases describes a gas as a large number of molecules (or atoms), all of which are in constant random motion. By the time he solidifies Flash is frog splatter on the pavement.

They're in motion, so he can simply stop the motion. And Wally has vibrated Martian Manhunter back to a tangible form, which might do the trick as well. Has Sentry ever changed to gas form, anyway? Not disputing that he's technically able to, I'm just curious if he'd actually think to do so.

Regarding the "react without thinking" thing, Wally can easily move faster than the team's sensory neurons can send input to their cerebellums, which then still have to send input to their motor neurons in order to counter. Even if Gladiator can do it in a nanosecond, I've already posted several feats of Wally performing multiple actions in the span of a picosecond. He's capable of going far faster than nanosecond reactions can keep up with. He's moved faster than Superman could perceive on multiple occasions, for example.

#223 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

Placing "lol" at the end of a response does not make your point incontrovertibly true. It's a passive aggressive, backhanded logical fallacy, and not a respectable way to carry on a discussion.

This being the internet I think you'll survive.

I loled because it is evident from the fight itself that Hulk was not throwing planet shattering strikes.

If you think you wait to think about how to react before reacting you obviously have never been in a fight and/or have absolutely zero understanding of how an athlete's body reacts instantaneously to external stimuli in the heat of the moment.

Here is what I think. I think that the brain sends messages through the nerves to the body. And the brain decides what messages to send through 'Thoughts'. Those thoughts happen at a certain speed. Wally exceeds that speed by a vast degree, therefore he can act before any thinking occurs.

#224 Posted by brick909 (130 posts) - - Show Bio

team stomps

#225 Edited by boostergold321 (301 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty: In the case of superhumans, they happen at superhuman speed; Particularly the superhumans who have every part of their natural physiological abilities increased to much greater than human magnitudes.

The speed of transmission in the brain just depends on the power of the superhuman.

Honestly, The only difference between Flash and the rest are his phasing abilities as well as being able to steal the energy from livings and non-living things. The Flash's powers are much like the Silver Surfer's.

The energy stealing won't bring Flash the victory when comes to the Sentry and less likely for Gladiator as well since his strength draws from the Stronian "faith-power" generators (I know that last part sounds a little ridiculous but this is comicbooks we're talking about).

It will come down to who's the strongest. It's not made completely clear in comics whether Flash's power is limited or not, and it's easy to say it probably isn't but if it was then this battle is a stalemate and if not then the Flash loses to everyone except Hyperion.

#226 Posted by thanosii (1308 posts) - - Show Bio

i like how a feat from another flash is valid for any flash cos they all tap into the speedforce but a feat from void isnt valid for sentry when they are the same person and it has been stated that sentry is the more powerful. Again when sentry faced MM he reformed as sentry and only on the third reform did void appear.

#227 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

i like how a feat from another flash is valid for any flash cos they all tap into the speedforce but a feat from void isnt valid for sentry when they are the same person and it has been stated that sentry is the more powerful. Again when sentry faced MM he reformed as sentry and only on the third reform did void appear.

It's generally valid to use feats from other Flashes such as Jay in Wally's case, since Wally has demonstrated all of Jay's abilities to a greater magnitude in the past. Things get a little fuzzier with some of Barry and Bart's feats, because they've done things Wally hasn't. (E.g. Bart's speed clones.) It is even less valid to use New-52 Barry feats, since Barry has been displaying different powers and it's an entirely new universe.

It isn't valid to use Void feats for Sentry because it says that you can't in the OP. It's pretty straightforward.

-The team is bloodlusted(though Sentry is without Void),
#228 Edited by Dredeuced (5728 posts) - - Show Bio

@thanosii said:

i like how a feat from another flash is valid for any flash cos they all tap into the speedforce but a feat from void isnt valid for sentry when they are the same person and it has been stated that sentry is the more powerful. Again when sentry faced MM he reformed as sentry and only on the third reform did void appear.

If the OP told us we couldn't use Speed Force feats for Flash then we wouldn't. You can't use Void Feats for Sentry in this thread and, amazingly enough, all of Sentry's best feats are when the Void takes over and uses his potential to its utmost.

People don't like using Void Sentry because it's usually an unfair stomp. Much like how people don't like to use bloodlusted Wally/Zoom because it's usually a stomp (Unless it's threads like these where they stack really formidable teams against them).

Online
#229 Edited by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@boostergold321 said:

@Lady_Liberty: In the case of superhumans, they happen at superhuman speed; Particularly the superhumans who have every part of their natural physiological abilities increased to much greater than human magnitudes.

The speed of transmission in the brain just depends on the power of the superhuman.

I don't think that's can be applied to every hero because not all 'superhumans' have superhuman reaction time. When they do it is usually mentoned in their power set, or they have feats that demonstrate what how quick their reactions are.

In this case we are talking about Thor, Sentry, and Gladiator. The three of them do not have reaction feats that indicate they could react to the Flash.

Honestly, The only difference between Flash and the rest are his phasing abilities as well as being able to steal the energy from livings and non-living things. The Flash's powers are much like the Silver Surfer's.

No they are not. There is a VAST difference between the Surfers powers and Flash's powers. I assume you are talking about speed and that's what I'll focus on.

To start with Surfer can ONLY go FTL by use of hyperspace which takes him into hyperspace and out of the battle. Flash goes FTL by use of the speed force, and he can move/think/fight at faster than light speeds.

The energy stealing won't bring Flash the victory when comes to the Sentry and less likely for Gladiator as well since his strength draws from the Stronian "faith-power" generators (I know that last part sounds a little ridiculous but this is comicbooks we're talking about).

It origin of Gladiator's speed doesn't matter. Someone has speed, Flash takes it and leaves them a statue. That's the way the speed steal works. There is nothing to indicate that either Sentry or Gladiator could resist the speed steel.

Even if they could, it wouldn't matter in the end.

It will come down to who's the strongest. It's not made completely clear in comics whether Flash's power is limited or not, and it's easy to say it probably isn't but if it was then this battle is a stalemate and if not then the Flash loses to everyone except Hyperion.

Flash is the strongest by far here. He can move, think, and fight at speeds the team cannot even comprehend. He can steal their speed and leave them statues. He can phase through their attacks. He can throw the IMP as many times as he wants. They don't have any answers to his speed.

And Hyperion isn't in this battle ;-)

#230 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@jackofspades said:

ok here is some more,flash can take a hit from mongul but get knock on his a** by capt cold and that looks like a blunt punch to me

i have to ask this but if you are not talking about my scan iam sorry.i know its not the same flash but the guy i was talking to said this Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting, and the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability. But since you're so entusiastic, I've tracked down a few scans of Wally demonstrating superhuman durability. THATS WHY I PUT THAT SCAN UP THERE TO HIM ALL FLASHES HAS THE SAME POWER SET SO IT DON'T MATTER

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force. In addition, New-52 Barry has far less experience with his speed-force abilities than Wally does, so of course he's going to have worse durability showings. His speed showings are worse, too, as are nearly all of the showings New-52 Barry and Pre-52 Wally have in common. Pre-52 Wally is, at this point, far more proficient with his powers than New-52 Barry is. That's why it's not a valid feat. And again, you've only posted a single fight that puts his durability at a relatively low point. I've posted 6 instances of high durability. And to top it all off, Barry isn't even hurt in that scan. So you've really accomplished nothing, even if it was a relevant feat. Which it really isn't.

read what you wrote,i didn't write it you did,now you can take it back like most of what you said

#231 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

If Gladiator believes his speed in un-stealable (I invented that word) , then the Flash won't be able to steal his speed. Gladiators powers allow him to do anything he believes, so long as there is no doubt in his mind.

As I have proven time and time again, it;s not easy to instill doubt in the mind of Gladiator.

#232 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@boostergold321 said:

@Lady_Liberty: In the case of superhumans, they happen at superhuman speed; Particularly the superhumans who have every part of their natural physiological abilities increased to much greater than human magnitudes.

The speed of transmission in the brain just depends on the power of the superhuman.

I don't think that's can be applied to every hero because not all 'superhumans' have superhuman reaction time. When they do it is usually mentoned in their power set, or they have feats that demonstrate what how quick their reactions are.

In this case we are talking about Thor, Sentry, and Gladiator. The three of them do not have reaction feats that indicate they could react to the Flash.

Honestly, The only difference between Flash and the rest are his phasing abilities as well as being able to steal the energy from livings and non-living things. The Flash's powers are much like the Silver Surfer's.

No they are not. There is a VAST difference between the Surfers powers and Flash's powers. I assume you are talking about speed and that's what I'll focus on.

To start with Surfer can ONLY go FTL by use of hyperspace which takes him into hyperspace and out of the battle. Flash goes FTL by use of the speed force, and he can move/think/fight at faster than light speeds.

The energy stealing won't bring Flash the victory when comes to the Sentry and less likely for Gladiator as well since his strength draws from the Stronian "faith-power" generators (I know that last part sounds a little ridiculous but this is comicbooks we're talking about).

It origin of Gladiator's speed doesn't matter. Someone has speed, Flash takes it and leaves them a statue. That's the way the speed steal works. There is nothing to indicate that either Sentry or Gladiator could resist the speed steel.

Even if they could, it wouldn't matter in the end.

It will come down to who's the strongest. It's not made completely clear in comics whether Flash's power is limited or not, and it's easy to say it probably isn't but if it was then this battle is a stalemate and if not then the Flash loses to everyone except Hyperion.

Flash is the strongest by far here. He can move, think, and fight at speeds the team cannot even comprehend. He can steal their speed and leave them statues. He can phase through their attacks. He can throw the IMP as many times as he wants. They don't have any answers to his speed.

And Hyperion isn't in this battle ;-)

and you forgot that the op said this The team is bloodlusted(though Sentry is without Void), Wally is in character so please tell me when has flash done all you the things you said in character because he is not going to throw as many IMP he can

#233 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

i have to ask this but if you are not talking about my scan iam sorry.i know its not the same flash but the guy i was talking to said this Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting, and the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability. But since you're so entusiastic, I've tracked down a few scans of Wally demonstrating superhuman durability. THATS WHY I PUT THAT SCAN UP THERE TO HIM ALL FLASHES HAS THE SAME POWER SET SO IT DON'T MATTER

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force. In addition, New-52 Barry has far less experience with his speed-force abilities than Wally does, so of course he's going to have worse durability showings. His speed showings are worse, too, as are nearly all of the showings New-52 Barry and Pre-52 Wally have in common. Pre-52 Wally is, at this point, far more proficient with his powers than New-52 Barry is. That's why it's not a valid feat. And again, you've only posted a single fight that puts his durability at a relatively low point. I've posted 6 instances of high durability. And to top it all off, Barry isn't even hurt in that scan. So you've really accomplished nothing, even if it was a relevant feat. Which it really isn't.

read what you wrote,i didn't write it you did,now you can take it back like most of what you said

Hey, look! My last response actually works perfectly for the second time in a row!

said:

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force. In addition, New-52 Barry has far less experience with his speed-force abilities than Wally does, so of course he's going to have worse durability showings...And to top it all off, Barry isn't even hurt in that scan. So you've really accomplished nothing, even if it was a relevant feat. Which it really isn't.

So in addition to ignoring almost all of the points I've brought up, you've brought nothing new to the discussion.

And please, tell me one single thing in this thread that I've stated and subsequently taken back. I'd love to hear what you've been reading into my posts.

#234 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

If Gladiator believes his speed in un-stealable (I invented that word) , then the Flash won't be able to steal his speed. Gladiators powers allow him to do anything he believes, so long as there is no doubt in his mind.

There's no way for Gladiator to believe that because unlike us he doesn't know about the speed steal, and won't know what has happened. Has he been paralyzed by a telepath? Had his molecules altered by a matter manipulator? Perhaps its an illusion, or even temporal manipulation?

'Clearly my opponent is using his powers to drain the speed out of my body.' isn't going to occur to him.

#235 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire:

what you need to take back is what you said about flash the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability

#236 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

@Esquire:

what you need to take back is what you said about flash the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability

Third time's the charm?

said:

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force.

I assumed that this would be obvious, and that no one would try to argue that New-52 Flash was the same as Pre-52. But it seems I was wrong. So for the sake of clarity, there is an implied "pre-52" before "Flashes" in the thing you're quoting. I though that would be clear. But even if it wasn't, you still should have realized that your scan was not an indication of low durability for Wally because a) Wally has far more experience with the Speed Force than New-52 Barry and correspondingly more proficiency, and b) Barry wasn't hurt by Cold's punch, anyway.

#237 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@jackofspades said:

@Esquire:

what you need to take back is what you said about flash the Speed Force has proven to work in the same fashion for all of the Flashes. So it's still an indication of Wally's increased durability

Third time's the charm?

said:

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force.

I assumed that this would be obvious, and that no one would try to argue that New-52 Flash was the same as Pre-52. But it seems I was wrong. So for the sake of clarity, there is an implied "pre-52" before "Flashes" in the thing you're quoting. I though that would be clear. But even if it wasn't, you still should have realized that your scan was not an indication of low durability for Wally because a) Wally has far more experience with the Speed Force than New-52 Barry and correspondingly more proficiency, and b) Barry wasn't hurt by Cold's punch, anyway.

well for one blood came out when flash got punch my cold,i don't know if you ever been in a fight NOT LIKELY but when you get punch and blood comes out then you been hurt,second don't come at me like i wrote it YOU DID,now if you didn't know what you was talking about then that's understandable because you said it NOT ME

#238 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW said:

If Gladiator believes his speed in un-stealable (I invented that word) , then the Flash won't be able to steal his speed. Gladiators powers allow him to do anything he believes, so long as there is no doubt in his mind.

There's no way for Gladiator to believe that because unlike us he doesn't know about the speed steal, and won't know what has happened. Has he been paralyzed by a telepath? Had his molecules altered by a matter manipulator? Perhaps its an illusion, or even temporal manipulation?

'Clearly my opponent is using his powers to drain the speed out of my body.' isn't going to occur to him.

Why wouldn't it? More obscure things have happened in comics. lol. Flash gets solo'd by any one of these guys. Simple as that. These three are just more power in every aspect. This is why their enemies are beings like the Serpent and Ego the living planet and Flash has enemies like Deathstroke.

#239 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW said:

If Gladiator believes his speed in un-stealable (I invented that word) , then the Flash won't be able to steal his speed. Gladiators powers allow him to do anything he believes, so long as there is no doubt in his mind.

There's no way for Gladiator to believe that because unlike us he doesn't know about the speed steal, and won't know what has happened. Has he been paralyzed by a telepath? Had his molecules altered by a matter manipulator? Perhaps its an illusion, or even temporal manipulation?

'Clearly my opponent is using his powers to drain the speed out of my body.' isn't going to occur to him.

Why wouldn't it? More obscure things have happened in comics. lol. Flash gets solo'd by any one of these guys. Simple as that. These three are just more power in every aspect. This is why their enemies are beings like the Serpent and Ego the living planet and Flash has enemies like Deathstroke.

PIS does happen, but its not a solid position to base an argument off of.

Secondly I could easily cherry pick say, Mongoose as a Thor villain and Zoom as a Flash villain. Naming villains won't explain how the team would survive a blitz composed of IMP's and speed steals, or how they would land any hits on a FTL foe who can vibrate through their attacks.

#240 Posted by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW said:

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW said:

If Gladiator believes his speed in un-stealable (I invented that word) , then the Flash won't be able to steal his speed. Gladiators powers allow him to do anything he believes, so long as there is no doubt in his mind.

There's no way for Gladiator to believe that because unlike us he doesn't know about the speed steal, and won't know what has happened. Has he been paralyzed by a telepath? Had his molecules altered by a matter manipulator? Perhaps its an illusion, or even temporal manipulation?

'Clearly my opponent is using his powers to drain the speed out of my body.' isn't going to occur to him.

Why wouldn't it? More obscure things have happened in comics. lol. Flash gets solo'd by any one of these guys. Simple as that. These three are just more power in every aspect. This is why their enemies are beings like the Serpent and Ego the living planet and Flash has enemies like Deathstroke.

PIS does happen, but its not a solid position to base an argument off of.

Secondly I could easily cherry pick say, Mongoose as a Thor villain and Zoom as a Flash villain. Naming villains won't explain how the team would survive a blitz composed of IMP's and speed steals, or how they would land any hits on a FTL foe who can vibrate through their attacks.

The point is Thor, Sentry and Gladiator face higher caliber enemies more often and therefor make them a higher caliber of character power-wise. Any one of the 3 could destroy the planet they are standing on and end Flash for good. I've seen people argue for Flash for days upon days on this website and nothing can convince me he is unbeatable and all-mighty like most people would have you believe.

#241 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW: That's ABC logic though. A defeated B so he can defeat C. And this battle shows exactly what that kind of logic doesn't work.

Just measuring 'Powers' and naming the winner based on that doesn't work either. They have to get in there and actually fight.

And when they do fight Flash is so much faster he will attack first, then he has attacks they cannot resist, and on top of that he has defenses they cannot bypass.

#242 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW: That's ABC logic though. A defeated B so he can defeat C. And this battle shows exactly what that kind of logic doesn't work.

Just measuring 'Powers' and naming the winner based on that doesn't work either. They have to get in there and actually fight.

And when they do fight Flash is so much faster he will attack first, then he has attacks they cannot resist, and on top of that he has defenses they cannot bypass.

It's not ABC logic in this case, it's simply common sense.

How often does Flash instantly speed blitz people he doesn't know? He doesn't know anything about any of the characters. He wouldn't know that he would absolutely HAVE to instantly IMP everyone of them 100 times in order to put them down for good. All you need to do is be able to move at light speed for an IMP and everyone here can do so. IMP's are actually pretty common if you think about it. Blood lusted Wally may be a problem, but he isn't blood lusted here so that's irrelevant.

#243 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

It's not ABC logic in this case, it's simply common sense.

How often does Flash instantly speed blitz people he doesn't know? He doesn't know anything about any of the characters.

Flash's entire power is speed. So he speed blitzes every time. What else is he going to do? Fight at the speeds of a normal person? That seems... unlikely

He wouldn't know that he would absolutely HAVE to instantly IMP everyone of them 100 times in order to put them down for good.

I doubt it would require that many IMP's, but if it did he should be able to do it without much trouble.

All you need to do is be able to move at light speed for an IMP and everyone here can do so. IMP's are actually pretty common if you think about it.

Which is nice.. but it doesn't address anything about the fight.

Blood lusted Wally may be a problem, but he isn't blood lusted here so that's irrelevant.

Blood lusted Wally would be even worse but normal Wally still has speed they can't come close to matching, an IMP that gives him a huge amount of striking power, a speed steal they can't counter, and intangibility any time he needs it.

The team just doesn't have any counters for someone this fast.

#244 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW said:

It's not ABC logic in this case, it's simply common sense.

How often does Flash instantly speed blitz people he doesn't know? He doesn't know anything about any of the characters.

Flash's entire power is speed. So he speed blitzes every time. What else is he going to do? Fight at the speeds of a normal person? That seems... unlikely

He wouldn't know that he would absolutely HAVE to instantly IMP everyone of them 100 times in order to put them down for good.

I doubt it would require that many IMP's, but if it did he should be able to do it without much trouble.

All you need to do is be able to move at light speed for an IMP and everyone here can do so. IMP's are actually pretty common if you think about it.

Which is nice.. but it doesn't address anything about the fight.

Blood lusted Wally may be a problem, but he isn't blood lusted here so that's irrelevant.

Blood lusted Wally would be even worse but normal Wally still has speed they can't come close to matching, an IMP that gives him a huge amount of striking power, a speed steal they can't counter, and intangibility any time he needs it.

The team just doesn't have any counters for someone this fast.

This clearly indicates that IMP are nothing new to MU characters.

Flash is in character. He tries to talk it out like any JLA member and dies horribly. They are bloodlusted, remember. They could simply destroy the planet and it's game over.

#245 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

well for one blood came out when flash got punch my cold,i don't know if you ever been in a fight NOT LIKELY

An ad hominem attack already? That was beneath you. (And also, that isn't even a particularly good attack. Whether I've been in a fight or not has no relevance on the validity of my explanations.)

but when you get punch and blood comes out then you been hurt,

If you post the next scan, Barry gets right back up and keeps fighting without any signs of being slowed by the hit. Blood from the mouth is shown all the time in comics, it rarely means anything serious. The fact that Barry is able to continue fighting unimpeded afterwards is far better evidence for him not being damaged.

second don't come at me like i wrote it YOU DID,now if you didn't know what you was talking about then that's understandable because you said it NOT ME

For future reference, if I can respond accurately to you by merely quoting my last response, then your post probably wasn't worth either of our time. I did indeed 'write it,' but you're not interpreting it correctly. As I said above and will reiterate here and below, there was an implied "pre-52" because New-52 Barry isn't operating with the same Speed Force as the Pre-52 Flashes. I though that would be common sense, and I've already explained it in detail.

@Esquire said:

said:

Wow. Read the thing you quoted. "Second, it's in the same universe, unlike what you've been posting." New-52 Universe =/= Pre-52 Universe. New-52 Speed Force =/= Pre-52 Speed Force.

I assumed that this would be obvious, and that no one would try to argue that New-52 Flash was the same as Pre-52. But it seems I was wrong. So for the sake of clarity, there is an implied "pre-52" before "Flashes" in the thing you're quoting. I though that would be clear. But even if it wasn't, you still should have realized that your scan was not an indication of low durability for Wally because a) Wally has far more experience with the Speed Force than New-52 Barry and correspondingly more proficiency, and b) Barry wasn't hurt by Cold's punch, anyway.

#246 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

It's not ABC logic in this case, it's simply common sense.

In this case, it isn't particularly relevant. Although they may usually fight more "powerful" enemies than Flash does, none of those enemies are similar enough to Flash to show why they would beat him. Thor trading blows with the Serpent doesn't mean he can tag Flash, for example.

@ToO_RaW said:

Flash is in character. He tries to talk it out like any JLA member and dies horribly. They are bloodlusted, remember. They could simply destroy the planet and it's game over.

That's not what In-Character means on the Battle Forums. Unless other circumstances are specified, we assume that any attempts to reason have already been finished, and that all of the characters are now prepared to fight one another with the intent of defeating their opponents. In-Character means that Flash will try to defeat his opponents in a manner consistent with the way he usually approaches comparable enemies.

#247 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

This clearly indicates that IMP are nothing new to MU characters.

While I've seen some blitz attacks from marvel characters this is the first time I've heard anyone claim IMP's were so common no one even mentioned them. That's an extraordinary claim, and is going to require some extraordinary evidence to support it.

Flash is in character. He tries to talk it out like any JLA member and dies horribly. They are bloodlusted, remember. They could simply destroy the planet and it's game over.

This is the battles section, not the fan fiction section ;-) Here the characters fight, not talk.

#248 Edited by ToO_RaW (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lady_Liberty said:

@ToO_RaW said:

This clearly indicates that IMP are nothing new to MU characters.

While I've seen some blitz attacks from marvel characters this is the first time I've heard anyone claim IMP's were so common no one even mentioned them. That's an extraordinary claim, and is going to require some extraordinary evidence to support it.

Flash is in character. He tries to talk it out like any JLA member and dies horribly. They are bloodlusted, remember. They could simply destroy the planet and it's game over.

This is the battles section, not the fan fiction section ;-) Here the characters fight, not talk.

As soon as you hit light speed, your mass increases infinitely. IMP's happen all the time. They're just not talked about in Marvel like they are in DC.

He's still in character. And he never goes all out right away against unknown opponents. Again, Blood lusted Gladiator can simply smash the planet to bits and suffocate Flash in the vacuum of space.

#249 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW: Flash can run in space.

#250 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8283 posts) - - Show Bio

@ToO_RaW said:

As soon as you hit light speed, your mass increases infinitely. IMP's happen all the time. They're just not talked about in Marvel like they are in DC.

That's your claim, your hypothesis.

1: Where is the evidence for this?

I'm not saying 'No IMP has ever been thrown in Marvel'. I'm saying I don't see any evidence that they are so common as to happen all the time. You're basically claiming they are so every day, so common place that no one even mentions them and I don't see any evidence for them being so common place.

One or two every now and again? That argument could be made, but throwing them around like candy? I need to see a bunch of evidence before I'll believe that.

2: How does it change the battle? Boxers throw and get hit with punches all the time, but when boxer A throws a million punches in the time it takes boxer B to throw one punch, boxer B goes down.

He's still in character. And he never goes all out right away against unknown opponents. Again, Blood lusted Gladiator can simply smash the planet to bits and suffocate Flash in the vacuum of space.

So what you are saying is Flash will not do anything, not use his ONLY power, speed, and because he just stands there.. they win?

Well I agree that if Flash doesn't do anything they win.

But I think its far, far, far more likely that Flash would actually use his powers ;-)