The Empire (star wars) vs The Covenant

The forces of the Empire:

1,000,000 clone troopers

20,000 AT-ST walkers

20,000 elite clone troopers (501st)

5 AT-AT walkers

1,000 tie fighters

vs

Forces of the covenant:

500,000 jakals (covenant carbine)

300,000 Brutes

200,000 Elites

35,000 wraiths

20,000 choppers

50,000 ghosts

20,000 elite zealots

1,000 plasma turrets

5 scarabs

1,500 banshes

1,000 vampires (covenant anti-air fighters)

Rules:

Morals off

No prep

Gear:

Standard

Battlefield:

A snowy mountain range with each side starting on the opposite side of the center mountains (each mountain is 3 miles high and 2 1/2 miles wide).

Victory condition:

Forced retreat or surrender

Versions:

current

Bump.

Covenant lol stomp.

Leaning towards Empire rigt now

Didn't played HALO in a while

Covies

Going to have to go with the Covenant in this case. 35'000 wraith tanks will just be supper effective in mountainous terrain since they have the ability to use indirect fire and double as artillery batteries. Kig-Yar (jackels) just go around scouting and calling in targets to be bombard into nothing.

Leaning towards empire. Though i would throw in sone tie bombers and tie intercepters

Epic battle ensues

Covenant, but in a real full potential fight? Covenant out numbers the clone army.

@eisenfauste: did you see he put 20000 elite zealots LOL

Covenant by a land slide

Covenant

Convenant.

Bump.

Curious as to why you guys think the Empire will win?

likewise

@killerwasp: @eisenfauste: the empire has systimatically conquered everything in its path. Although vader was a big part. Their army is highly capable. Not a stomp by anymeans.

@nerdchore: Well considering the Elite's shields will tank laser bolts better than Stormtroopers armor will tank plasma bolts.

Not to mention that a near miss will incap any stormie or kill him.

Look at it this way......there are 35,000 wraiths. Each vehicle can lob 3 blobs of plasma in 15-20 seconds. Each plasma ball is capable of turning a 20 meter radius of land into glass. At the beginning of the battle the Imperial army is looking at a ballpark of 90,000-105,000 balls of super charged plasma headed their way.

And then you have scarabs which are packing a ridiculous damage soak and a high damage output enough to blast an AT-TE to splinters in one shot of is plasma cannon.

It verily is indeed a stomp in Covenant favor.

I will say that if you were to add tie bombers than the Empire will wreck. A high yield bomb dropped by a tie bomber, only the size of a melon roughly, has the capacity to level Mos Eisley. It would only take 1 or 2 in order to destroy the covenant battle group.

Covenant.

For a battle this big, it should be taking place on a planetary level. Cramming millions of men into a few mile stretches of mountains really breaks modern combat doctrine as it forces them all to group up which, under those circumstances, even the fail tank that is the Wraith can now take over the battlefield.

Yeah I agree, I am going to change the battlefield to:

The entirety of medieval england, with empire starting in wessex and the covenant starting in northern Northumbria.

So why is it the Covenant has more of a variety in terms of units for this battle? Just curious.

@army2442: Mkay, I have the time to spare a more in-depth look.

First off, lets address the At-AT vs the Scarab.

At-AT/Scarab: Scarab is being massively wanked here by people. The Scarab has done nothing in the little we have ever seen of it to earn such accolades. In Halo 2, we see it kill a scorpian tank. From the blow, it looks like it hit it, caused the explosives shells inside the tank to explode and so destroy the tank. The tank was not a pile of melted slag. It was not blown to bits. We see it directly hit a pelican. The pelican does not explode. The Pelican is not sheared in half. We see it shoot the concrete tunnel and blow a hole through the concrete. We know it can easily shrug off a point-blank shot from a scorpian. We know it took 2-3 shots from it to break through the door when Johnson was manning the gun. The Scarab in Halo Wars was a 'Super Scarab' and so not applicable.

Now, onto the At-AT. First thing people need to understand is the At-AT is not some huge doom walker. It is a heavy troop carrier. Funny enough, the Scarab is just a mining platform they refitted into a military weapon. The explosions in Empire Strikes Back from the At-AT's guns were not very large and leave much to be desired as far as weaponry yields go. I refuse to use ICS calcs because they are very, very, very wanky and purposely high-balling star wars as high as it can go. We know it has 'light turbolasers', but we don't know how strong those are. Just saying 'turbolasers' doesn't make is super awesome encase anyone was jumping in their seats because it shares the name of a weapon that Star War's military ships have. Said ships are vastly, vastly larger then the At-AT. They fired 'maximum' power on the generators which resulted in a nice explosion that is probably 14-20 kilotons. Note I did not count the secondary explosion as I took that as the shield generators going boom.

Nothing the Scarab has done makes me think it is going to one-shot an At-AT (Save for leg joint shots but that works both ways). I am inclined to believe the At-AT has superior weaponry, however, the Scarab has vastly superior maneuverability and has demonstrated better range. That said, I do believe the At-AT does have comparable, if not superior, range as the only reason to build something that tall is to give it better vision over the battlefield and allow it to fire over things and at long distances. Still, the Empire has designed bad vehicles before, and the At-AT is a terrible, terrible walker. It is to Walkers what the Cove Wraith is to tanks.

In a one on one confrontation, I would be willing to give the At-AT a slight edge. The Scarab does have the tools to win, so the edge would be tiny like a 5.5/10 to the At-AT since its wobbly structure and huge legs are a very tempting target.

Air Power: Tie Fighters dominate the skies. They are not durable, but a Tie Fighter is ridiculously fast and is going to fly circles around banshees. A banshee does not have the feats to suggest it could keep up, and to my knowledge, neither does the Vampires.

Empire owns the skies with ease. 10/10

AT-ST Walker vs Ghost/Chopper: AT-STs are scout vehicles much like Ghost and Choppers are. AT-STs while looking slow go something like 90 kp/h at max speed, so they can move. AT-ST and Ghost/Choppers are both eggshells in that their armor can be penetrated fairly easily by ground based heavy weaponry. That said, Between the AT-ST and Ghost/Choppers, I give the AT-ST the advantage for having superior firepower and armor as if an AT-ST runs into a Ghost or a Choppa, the AT-ST is going to be the one walking away thanks to its lasers and concussion grenade launcher which is going to hurt since both the Ghost and Choppa are 'open canopies'. The Choppa and Ghost both have superior maneuverability though, so it shouldn't be too hard to see the AT-ST and get the hell out of dodge. I do love Choppas though.. Anyways, as far as scout vehicles go, I like Ghost and Choppas more, but the AT-ST is superior in a fight.

AT-ST 7/10

Wraith: Wraith... I put the Wraith here since the Empire wasn't given heavy armor like the A5, A6, 2-M Saber, Century... even assault speeders would work. I have made no effort to ever hide my disdain of the Wraith. It is a short ranged artillery tank. I never thought I would call a tank a short ranged artillery piece. Its range is very short. The plasma round moves very slowly and is easily seen making it easy to dodge for any infantry that pays attention and isn't pinned down. The plasma turret on it is more dangerous then the main gun as far as anti-infantry is concerned. People like to think they can make artillery units of Wraiths and use their high rate of fire to win battles like this all while conveniently forgetting the Wraiths pathetic range which does not allow it to act as a true artillery piece. As there is nothing to compare it to, the Wraith wins by default. 10/10 as there is a lack of opponent.

Infantry: Odd, where are the Grunts? Anyways, I have always liked Jackals for their shield/rifle combo. I have no reason to believe the shields couldn't take stormtrooper E-11 blaster fire. I do believe that the E-11 is superior to the assault rifles used by the UNSC (Maybe not in accuracy, but in power and versatility), and sustained fire is going to be a bad idea for the Jackals. Since they are using carbines, it means they aren't going to be snipping and long shootouts are expected.

Elites and Brutes are going to be the real challenge. While energy shields exist in Star Wars, they tend to cause... health problems with usage and was not part of standard stormtrooper equipment. I would put plasma rifles and E-11s on about the same tier while giving the E-11 an advantage based upon versatility, but I don't see one doing more damage then the other. That said, I do favor thermal detonators (even the low class that Stormtroopers used) over plasma grenades. Brute shots... will hurt. Grenade Launchers are a very, very effective anti-infantry weapon, and the brutes do love them so. A Brute Spiker is also going to hurt. While Stormtrooper armor is very good against conventional firearms, a brute Spiker is by no means a conventional firearm as it fires out superheated metal spikes at a very good firing rate.

If it gets into hand to hand, both a brute and an Elite will tear a stormtrooper limb from limb.

In infantry, I give the edge to the Covenant. They have various different types of infantry suited to different means while the other side just has 'stormtroopers'. I assume that some of them carry sniper rifles, heavy weaponry, etc, just as as I assume Elites and Brutes will carry slightly varied weaponry, but I think the Elites and Brutes really carry this with their superior physiology, comparable weaponry, and shields. I have never been one to rag on Stormtroopers as their 'reputation' in the movies is unfairly given. I do not think the Stormtroopers will roll over and die, and I believe they will put up a very good fight.

7/10 in favor of the Covenant.

Infantry Elites: 501st vs Zealots. I love the 501st. I truly, truly do, but the Zealots (Who I also enjoy) are going to take this fairly handily. While their skill and experience should be equal, the Zealots have very good shields, cloaking and are physically superior.

8.5/10 in favor of the Zealots.

Overall: As this is a fight stretched out over Europe, the initial stages of the conflict are going to be fought with scouting forces and early air raids against each other. The Empire is going to take the lead in this as the AT-ST means that their scouting parties are going to hash out early victories which is going to boost morale. Their Air dominance is going to quickly show itself which means the Covenant have to go on the offensive otherwise air-raids will slowly eat away at them. Sadly, this lessens the Covenants bonus in plasma turrets as they won't be able to set up many defensive positions and will have to set them up mid-battle which, as seen with the Chief, can be used against them.

As the war escalates, Covenant infantry and heavy armor should start takings its toll. The Empire is going to have to rely on its airpower to control battlefields and remove Wraiths and launch attacks on Scarabs. I don't see the Scarabs and At-ATs doing much in this, tbh. At-ATs will probably slowly get killed by Wraiths and Scarabs (Scarabs and Wraiths will also die to At-ATs) and surviving Scarabs are going to be hit hard by Tie Fighters.

If the Empire fights smart, utilizing its air power to the fullest then they can win. However, I believe that the Covenant will dominate this land based campaign with their superior infantry and heavy armor.

So, overall, Covenant Victory 6.5/10

@wut: that was an awesome rundown. I think we can safely say that's the end of it!

Thank you. It takes me awhile. This one took me an hour and a half or so as I have to look everything up, search for various feats to determine which is superior, etc, but I try to break them all down like that for every army vs army thread.

@wut: Just a couple of things, while the AT-AT is an armored transport, it does also double as armor/self-propelled artillery, described as an almost unstoppable weapons platform. Also the AT-AT doesn't have light turbolasers, it has 2 heavy laser cannons and 2 medium laser cannons. As per the legs of the AT-AT, it's not really that big a weakness(as far as destroying them), but I don't know how big the tanks can do for damage, but the AT-AT as a whole is extremely durable apart from neck/underbelly.

As per the Stormtroopers, the thermal detonator isn't low class(unless you mean by comparison to what the enemy has) as it has enough power to destroy a landspeeder.

Other than that, nice write up.

@wolfrazer: It being described as an 'unstoppable weapons platform' doesn't mean much. We have to examine feats which the At-ATs aren't as impressive as its reputation. The primary purpose of the At-AT is a heavy assault troop carrier which is what I pointed out just like the Scarab was originally a mining platform retrofitted into a military unit. Both could be made better if they were dedicated heavy walkers designed for maximum firepower and direct combat.

Huh, I apologize for the light turbolaser thing then. I could have sworn I saw the At-AT main weaponry described as 'light turbolasers'. Either way, the yields of their weaponry (Which I got from Empire) doesn't change which I still place higher then the Scarab's laser in terms of raw damage output. (Neither At-AT or Scarab are tanking many shots from each other).

I did not mean low class as in a bad grenade as Thermal Detonators are very good grenades. Thermal Detonators are leveled out in 'classes' with higher class Detonators having a larger radius. Most stormtroopers issued thermal detonators are 5 meters or so.

@wolfrazer: Sorry didn't see your wraith part when I wrote my post. The reason I mentioned Wraiths is because there are... a lot of wraiths in this battle with only 5 At-ATs. It is only logical to assume that the Scarabs are going to have wraith support which means when they face the At-ATs the Wraiths will also be firing. Will a Wraith solo an At-AT? No. Will five Wraiths kill an At-AT? No, but the damage will accumulate, and the At-AT will fall down.

The legs are obvious structural weak points. This is true with all walkers. While their 'knee' joint has to be made out of some impressive metal to hold that much weight, it is still the obvious target.

@wut: Well according to Major Bren Derlin who served the RA in several battles including Hoth. They had the Battle of Gormen won up until the AT-ATs arrived and ripped apart through the frontlines. I'm gonna see about digging up more feats though for AT-ATs.

While yes, the AT-AT wasn't retrofitted from being something else. It was designed as a multi-purpose walker, I think that edges out for the AT-AT being superior. Although you already gave the edge to the AT-AT, so this is all rather moot.

Alright yeah, I got you. Nice to see though someone else not saying Stormtroopers suck. Although the OP does say Clone Troopers...unless he means cloned Stormtroopers...but /shrug. Also yes, Stormtroopers do carry various weapons with them into battle at times.

@wut: I could wager sustained fire could prove a problem and topple an AT-AT sure at the legs, but then that also leaves the tanks to being destroyed too.

Elites, Zealots, and Brutes are going to slaughter the storm troopers. Especially with the help of all those Jackals.

Empire is also heavily outclassed in the vehicle department. Mostly from the 35,000 Wraiths.

In the end, Covenant stomps in this scenario. However in an actual battle with all resources I'd take The Empire any day.

@wolfrazer: I think he means stormtroopers. He does typos once in awhile. Not a major issue. The only all clone stormtrooper unit was the 501st as they were Vader's personal unit. If it is clone troopers then the advantage in infantry does shorten a little. Not enough to give the Empire the edge or change the battle outcome much, it would probably go from 6.5 to 6.

At-ATs can be effective (I still think their design is terrible), but their weaponry yield isn't as impressive as their reputation. I don't see rebel infantry or tanks doing much to an At-AT but Scarabs and Wraiths should (Not because of Wraith Firepower, more so because of the raw number of them). I don't see the At-AT or Scarabs making a huge difference in this conflict. They will win a few battles but not enough to sway the war one way or another. If the Empire was given some heavy support then it would be interesting.

Yep, I think a lot of the stormtrooper inaccuracy could be blamed on Vader wanting them alive and also purposely letting them escape to give out the death star plans, so they could find the rebel base by following them.

@wut: There were other cloned Stormtroopers, TK-622 was a clone as were the clones that served under Janek Sunber, unless you're meaning Jango clones then yeah, the 501st was the only Jango cloned one.

@wolfrazer: Aye, I mentioned that Wraiths would be killed by At-ATs.

I didn't mean no stromtroopers were clones, I mean only one stormtrooper unit was fully clones and that was the 501st. Most other Stormtrooper units had some clones in them but clones saw less and less use as they were rather expensive.

@wut: Ahhh k, gotcha.

@wut: The difference between an AT-AT and a Scarabs damage output is that one fires laser bolts (AT-AT). And the other fires a high yield beam of concentrated plasma.

Plasma > Lasers by a heavy margin.

This is a one shot scenario. I believe sustained fire from an AT-AT can put a Scarab down, as well as one beam hit from a Scarab can drop an AT-AT very handily. It's armor is powerful but it won't laugh off covenant plasma which has been seen to utterly eat through Titanium A armor, think of a more pure and durable form of Titanium. The main problem with range is that we haven't seen a scarab open fire at long range. It always seems to be put in a situation where a close in battle is the only possible outcome.

Other than that I agree with your assessment.

@eisenfauste: Not all plasma is considered equal. Covenant Plasma is fairly low tier as far as plasma in sci-fi goes. For instance, a heavy lascannon is superior to the covenant scarab gun despite one being plasma and the other being laser. Despite one being on a huge walker and the other being mounted on a leman russ chassis.

We don't just go Plasma > Laser as both vary from sci-fi to sci-fi. We take their power showings then compare them. In this, the At-AT has shown a better weapon feat which is why its weaponry is superior. If you disagree on this then you will need to show a Scarab plasma cannon feat that puts it above the At-ATs weaponry. I already explained its showings in Halo 2 (Its showing in Halo 3 is terrible, so I didn't include it), and it falls short. The scarab was able to punch a nice sized hole through concrete from far away.

It is very possible that they can one-shot each other.

@wut: I know you explained your Halo 2 showings in this thread and both of them were incredibly low showings. Basically the same reason I don't talk about how a full on blast from an AT-AT was only able to blast a small chunk out of a rebel speeder and send it careening into the snow. Or also why I don't point out how small the explosions were from Empire strikes back, bar the "max firepower" shot. Basically I'm going by Covenant Plasma tech from the books which has shown plasma to continue eating through titanium armor without stopping. The only reason it stops eating through material is either because said material is ablative or atmosphere was vented or lessened. An AT-AT's armor is not ablative, it is simply thick material which can be melted by plasma going by feats from extremely similar material.

Not to mention covenant plasma has also displayed a kinetic ability to it. Although it isn't scientifically credible plasma, the real deal literally breaks apart material on the molecular level and turns it into plasma. Yet it still has shown to be a much more dangerous weapon than Heavy Laser cannons.

If we go by comics and the books for the AT-AT, the better showings, then the AT-AT has the potential to bust small buildings which should be sufficient damage, if sustained, to destroy a scarab.

Covenant stomp.

@eisenfauste: Except the 'small explosion' from the maximum shot puts it at 16-20 kt in firepower which is above the showings in Halo 2 which is the only real showing the Scarab has besides Halo Wars which is a Super Scarab. The Scarab has never shown to have tanked weaponry higher then this. We know it is 'invulnerable' to .50s and rocket launchers, that said, rocket launchers and .50 cals can knock chunks of its armor off where I don't see chunks of At-ATs falling off under the same fire. We know it tanked a shot from a Scoprian without much damage, but an At-ATs weapons are on another level. The Scarab has never, ever shown the type of firepower that people assume it has.

If you really want to discuss Covenant plasma, do you know what happens when you drop molten metal on concrete? It explodes. Cool right? It explodes because all the air trapped in the concrete starts to rapidly expand which causes it to pop. Molten Aluminium will do this. Aluminium melts at 1260 degrees. The covenant scarab plasma cannon did not cause the concrete to explode. It just went through it like a drill which fits as it was a mining platform, its weapon is designed for mining.

Covenant plasma from scarabs is less then 1260 degrees based on its showings. It works, I assume, by giving a constant stream of hot plasma to melt whatever it is hitting much like a 'drill'. Which means it is going to have to sustain fire on the At-AT which will be firing back with its weaponry that does more damage.

The reason I talk about heat is covenant plasma is super heated globs of gas being flung. Gas does have kinetic properties. You can be hit by gasses if they are pressurized or moving fast enough.

@eisenfauste: yeah i agree i think the empire should have tie bombers as well.

@nerdchore: I disagree. Tie bombers would make this incredibly one-sided. Just Tie-Fighters are enough to ensure Empire supremacy in the air, and they can be used to strike at valuable targets. The Empire should be given some heavy vehicles like the A6 or even the M2 as then they can now compete with the Covenant Wraiths and have something to back up their infantry allowing a closer match without either side having a clear edge.

I added 25,000 A6 heavy tanks to combat my huge oversight in giving the covenant heavy armor support but not the empire.

@wut:

Except the 'small explosion' from the maximum shot puts it at 16-20 kt in firepower

I was pointing out the consistent small explosions that we have seen created by AT-AT's from the movies. I explicitly said "bar the maximum firepower shot" when talking about the low showings for the AT-AT's. In any case why bring up such a rare form of attack for AT-AT pilots to use? We have seen this fire output only once when Veers was commanding a walker. It is not used in the comic's at all.

rocket launchers and .50 cals can knock chunks of its armor off where I don't see chunks of At-ATs falling off under the same fire.

1. This is game mechanics because the only way to take the Scarab down is to hit the limbs

2. The same firepower doesn't even scratch the chassis.

The covenant scarab plasma cannon did not cause the concrete to explode. It just went through it like a drill which fits as it was a mining platform, its weapon is designed for mining.

1. I don't know why you keep bringing up this low showing of covenant plasma. If you want to go along this route then the main weapon of a Scarab was changed up in Halo 3 to resemble more closely how the books write the plasma to look like. Which going by consistent showings melts through Titanium A armor as if it was butter.

2. This is 500 years into the future, why are you assuming they pave their roads with concrete? We could only guess as to what material the road is made out of and how many synthetic material makes up the bulk of the mixture used to make it. They are pulling ore and distributing it from planets all over the sector, the ore could be made up of something entirely alien to our understanding.

Covenant plasma from scarabs is less then 1260 degrees based on its showings

From lowly plasma pistols to Covenant cruiser plasma torpedo's, the heat output has consistently been described as hot as the sun so why would a Scarabs suddenly be only as hot as a laser bolt?

Yes the Covenant plasma has been shown to have kinetic property, a man's head was blown off by a plasma rifle in Harvest.

@eisenfauste:

I was pointing out the consistent small explosions that we have seen created by AT-AT's from the movies. I explicitly said "bar the maximum firepower shot" when talking about the low showings for the AT-AT's. In any case why bring up such a rare form of attack for AT-AT pilots to use? We have seen this fire output only once when Veers was commanding a walker. It is not used in the comic's at all.

Not really an inconsistency. They wanted to destroy am military structure. They fired the cannons at 'maximum' power. There is no reason to suggest they would not do the same to the Scarab given its size. In fact, I would suggest that for a pilot to not do so would be implementing high incompetence on them.

Comics don't matter. Disney now owns Star Wars so the 'canon' policy doesn't exist anymore, but movies were higher canon then the Comics back when the canon policy existed. As the movies did it first, there is no reason to believe it is 'super special' that only Veers can do. Unless you can prove they can't and Veers had his At-AT custom built?

1. This is game mechanics because the only way to take the Scarab down is to hit the limbs

2. The same firepower doesn't even scratch the chassis.

1. The armor that falls off is on the limbs. Uh... no. Game Mechanics would be a Scarab dying to a rocket launcher squid via Halo Wars. In Halo 2, I would not call this game mechanic as they could have very easily made it so the leg armor would not fall off. They chose to make it so implying that it did do some damage to the outer armor.

2. Any smart commander is going to target the limbs. It should not even be mentioned as such walkers always have structural weakness in their legs as there is a lot of weight on them.

1. I don't know why you keep bringing up this low showing of covenant plasma. If you want to go along this route then the main weapon of a Scarab was changed up in Halo 3 to resemble more closely how the books write the plasma to look like. Which going by consistent showings melts through Titanium A armor as if it was butter.

2. This is 500 years into the future, why are you assuming they pave their roads with concrete? We could only guess as to what material the road is made out of and how many synthetic material makes up the bulk of the mixture used to make it. They are pulling ore and distributing it from planets all over the sector, the ore could be made up of something entirely alien to our understanding.

1. Do you really want to use the Scarab in Halo 3? Really? As that scarab was a joke. First off, I never said it could not melt through titanium. I said that the gun operates by giving out a constant stream of plasma that causes things to melt. Secondly, under the stream, it is entirely plausible that Titanium would heat up quickly and then 'melt like butter'.

But it is sustained fire, not a sniper shot which means the At-AT will fire back.

2. Do you have proof it is made of something different? If it looks like concrete, smells like concrete, is destroyed like concrete... odds are... it is concrete. The concrete I was talking about was the tunnel in which it blew a clean hole through the roof. As it was a civilian structure, yes, I can safely assume they would use concrete as it is proven, easy to mold, and cheap to produce. If something isn't broken, you don't fix it.

From lowly plasma pistols to Covenant cruiser plasma torpedo's, the heat output has consistently been described as hot as the sun so why would a Scarabs suddenly be only as hot as a laser bolt?

Yes the Covenant plasma has been shown to have kinetic property, a man's head was blown off by a plasma rifle in Harvest.

Again. And for the last time. Stop trying to make it seem that lasers are less impressive then plasma just because it isn't plasma! Guess what Lasguns in 40k do? When they hit unarmored flesh... it explodes because the water turns to air which rapidly expands. When it hits the 40k equivalent of concrete? It causes the section hit to explode because the air expands due to the heat.

Now, encase you didn't know, the surface of the sun is only 2,000 degrees. So, 'hot as the sun' is a very, very vague reference. From what it does, I highly doubt it is much hotter then 2,000 degrees. Probably around 3,000 degrees if I had to guess as that is the melting point of Titanium. A constant stream of plasma means that it is likely the initial heat is lower due to the energy and gas needed to power such a stream, but it makes up for it by rapidly heating the target... which I mentioned a couple of times now.

I never said Covenant weapons didn't have kinetic energy.... I said that superheated gas should have some kinetic property. Not sure where you were going with that.

@eisenfauste: Ah, I must apologize. I was way wrong about the sun. It goes from 4,000 to 10,000 degrees from the 'atmosphere' to the 'surface'. Still, do you see what I mean by it being a very vague answer? Even if we remove the possibility of it just being easily used Hyperbole?

Now, it is not going to be 10,000 degrees as that would mean plasma rifles would be annihilating Scoprion tanks like they were nothing. I would guess 3,500 - 4,500 depending on the plasma in question.

Still does not solve the numerous problems that are the Scarabs showings as A. It didn't cause the Concrete to explode from raw heat, B. It did not shear the Pelican in half or even do that much damage despite a direct hit, and C. Did not reduce the Scorpion to slag and seemed more like it caused the explosives shells inside the tank to explode thus destroying the tank. Do not get me wrong, a Scarab could easily kill a Scorpion, but all of this implies a vastly lower initial heat that is geared towards raising the heat of the target to 'melt' through it which fits with it being a mining vehicle refitted for military purposes.

@wut: incorrect, covenant weaponary burns at around 3000 degrees C. <-- this is supported by Halo: Evolutions - Essential Tales of the Halo Universe, however i can't remember the page so ill have to do some digging. Anyway for game play reasons the plasma in halo 2 or any any game has been lowered down.. In the books there has been instances of it burning and cutting people away with its source. Need to stop relying on the games and read more into the books and you'd realize how powerful the covenant weaponary is. Anyway

Examples of how hot the covenant weapons can get and how effective they can be even without direct attack or hit from small arms fire is right below.

Covenant Weapons again

John and a random elite fighting over a plasma pistol and it discussed what would happen and then what did happen

I cut out the fight scene between him and a RANDOM standard ( blute ) elite. ) whom btw he gave 200,000 elites.

Covenant grenade blows up a human squad of marines with ease.

weapons

As for the At-At argument yeah... that aint happening..Scarabs one shot prolly.

Also with that it was immune to a lot of firepower, and when a pelican ran into it it didnt even slow it down. If you were wanting to go by in game feats... However, as i said its basically invulnerable and its armor of most likely that of the covenant space craft. If you also doubt the covenant fleet's armor, and tactics heres from halo fall of reach

Also the UNSC use Titanium-A armor as well which is also explained in Halo: Ghosts of Onyx which has the melting point of 1668 degrees C <-- found in Halo: Ghosts of Onyx

Anyway there are more feats in the books, if i need to ill look up more their is instances where a plasma pistol shot by an infected keyes made a marine's top body explode basically ( i have the book it will take time to find but there are others ). Again don't mistake game play as = their weapons, lore, and other stuff. The games are = to plot that's it. Anyway i'd say it'd be a great fight to watch and enjoy no side should be ashamed of whom wins and whom loses. People need to stop lowballing Imps and the Covenant. Granted i get it, both are respected universes, and others, but how about we just hate on marvel and dc because we both know watching the Empire and the Covenant fighting those wimpy Kree soldiers would entertain all.

All in all, just deal with it.

@killerwasp: So 5,500ish Fahrenheit? Not as hot as the surface of the sun, roughly the atmospheric heat. Above what I expected, but again, lower the most Sci-Fi plasma.

Particle Beam rifles are pointless to show as the Jackals are not given beam rifles. They are given carbines which is why I said expect long shootouts. I don't remember ever saying the Elites/Brutes didn't have an advantage over the Stormtroopers, and I never said the Covenant plasma grenades were bad. I will admit it has been a few years since last I read the Halo series.

In fact, gave the Covenant the win, so I am not sure why you are talking at me as if I low-balled them or the Empire in this fight. I did not.

The size is unimportant as the Scarab has never shown to tank explosions that are 14 to 20 kt. I believe the chassis can tank it, but the leg joints? Doubtful.

Size isn't everything. A Scarab is larger then a Warhound. It would not beat a Warhound. It is much larger then I remember which would imply it would have the superior range that said, the longest we ever see one fire is at the bridge which was probably half a mile away or so. But I do admit that I favor the Scarabs over the At-ATs now as they are larger which implies they can take more hits to the main frame and are still more mobile despite being bigger. Doesn't change the outcome of the war much as neither At-AT or Scarabs are winning the war for either as Scarabs are going to find themselves being targeted by Tie Fighters.

You do realize that 1668 Celsius is 3034 degrees Fahrenheit which is where I put titanium melting point (3000ish, 3034 to be exact) at right? Titanium-A armor has the same melting point as normal Titanium.... Honestly, I assumed Titanium-A armor had a higher melting point then normal Titanium.

I never 'low balled' the Covenant. I point out that the Scarab has done nothing to earn the accolades people throw at it (Which is true) and wraiths are terrible to use as MBT (Which is also true). I point out that Covenant plasma is not nearly as good as people like to believe because when someone hears plasma they automatically assume it is super awesome sauce. Which isn't always the case.

@wut: "So 5,500ish Fahrenheit? Not as hot as the surface of the sun, roughly the atmospheric heat. Above what I expected, but again, lower the most Sci-Fi plasma." <- not most, but some yes, and i didnt see ur posts until afterwards, because i spent a good 2 or so hours reviewing books.

"Particle Beam rifles are pointless to show as the Jackals are not given beam rifles." <-- yes they are, they are given tons of them, they are also given pistols and needlers as well which both are shown in fall of reach as well.

" I don't remember ever saying the Elites/Brutes didn't have an advantage over the Stormtroopers, and I never said the Covenant plasma grenades were bad. I will admit it has been a few years since last I read the Halo series."<--- neither did i, but im suggesting don't underestimate their gear is what im saying. Its very effective, very deadly. Is it on par with Warhammer plasma pistols? No, is it on par with tau weapons? No, is it on par with star wars tech just like most of their stuff that they reverse engineered from the Forerunners, sure.

"In fact, gave the Covenant the win, so I am not sure why you are talking at me as if I low-balled them or the Empire in this fight. I did not." <- not for the low-ball that was for everyone else, i'd assume u wouldnt be the only one reading, and i didnt wanna make two comments so in the future it'd block me from adding more stuff in. So my apologizes on that behalf i saw u gave the covenant the win, but im referring to all the Covenant wins with out explaining.

"The size is unimportant as the Scarab has never shown to tank explosions that are 14 to 20 kt. I believe the chassis can tank it, but the leg joints? Doubtful." <- it has, as i said its immune to all but short of very heavy damage, and if you play the games u'd know they created weak spots on purpose for game play, and nothing short of plasma grenades to end its insides. However there isn't any source so far that ik of that has actually ended a Scarab other than hijacking it and stopping it from the crew within.

"Size isn't everything. A Scarab is larger then a Warhound. It would not beat a Warhound. It is much larger then I remember which would imply it would have the superior range that said, the longest we ever see one fire is at the bridge which was probably half a mile away or so. But I do admit that I favor the Scarabs over the At-ATs now as they are larger which implies they can take more hits to the main frame and are still more mobile despite being bigger. Doesn't change the outcome of the war much as neither At-AT or Scarabs are winning the war for either as Scarabs are going to find themselves being targeted by Tie Fighters."<-- lol this reminds me of an argument before. We are arguing star wars and halo not warhammer. The difference is Star wars tech does base itself on size, you're more than welcome to check out a thread of this where i pointed this out before. In these two universes, size does matter when it comes to vehicles and other such things. Example you don't see a speeder soloing a At-At unlike in warhammer, im sure with the correct aims from a dreadnought would end a At-At. (basic model not any advanced ones ).

"You do realize that 1668 Celsius is 3034 degrees Fahrenheit which is where I put titanium melting point (3000ish, 3034 to be exact) at right? No, regard titanium melting point was 1668 degrees C. Titanium A was amped up to put in heat resistance, which it resistance to a point but in the end just like all the gear the UNSC has made had fallen to the Covenant.

Titanium-A armor has the same melting point as normal Titanium.... Honestly, I assumed Titanium-A armor had a higher melting point then normal Titanium." <- this was referring to your first statement of "Covenant plasma from scarabs is less then 1260 degrees based on its showings" As i said it took a couple of hours for me to reply.

"I never 'low balled' the Covenant. I point out that the Scarab has done nothing to earn the accolades people throw at it (Which is true) and wraiths are terrible to use as MBT (Which is also true). I point out that Covenant plasma is not nearly as good as people like to believe because when someone hears plasma they automatically assume it is super awesome sauce. Which isn't always the case." <-- As i stated even on a base level, it is as good as people think it is, it may not be as hot as the sun as i had to check the temperature myself, but its a lot hotter than people think, and its heat is able as i said do wonders. Anyway, good break down on the fight, didn't really disagree with anything per say, just a few things that i wanted to point out when the debates came up.