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#51 Edited by The_Imperator (1928 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegablast452: He's not part of the TARDIS, gotta point that out. He is linked to it telepathically, but not physically part of it. He gets captured because he doesn't attempt to game reality. Also, he was captured by the Master, someone who has insane luck/plot shields in the show as well, so they might just cancel each other out :P

He used a gun in that scene because he was getting the entire group away, not just himself. He was blowing up the artificial gravity generator.

#52 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (17290 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegablast452: Uh, to escape later? And the gun was for blowing that gravity thingy. He doesn't use harmful things generally.

#53 Posted by omegablast452 (2425 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_imperator: @princearagorn1:

So I guess it is hyperbole of him warping reality xD

why would he need a gun to blow up an artificial device if he's that powerful?

#54 Edited by The_Imperator (1928 posts) - - Show Bio

@omegablast452: No, the Doctor just quite literally doesn't do it consciously. The reality warping is what gets all the pieces set up perfectly, and why the villains simply talk, and all the little things. Asking why someone who doesn't want to be all powerful doesn't just screw with the universe is like asking why someone who likes to cook doesn't just order out. It's not what they do :P :P

#55 Posted by rpottage (893 posts) - - Show Bio

@rpottage: We are going to have to agree to disagree then here, because we are both taking quotes and applying them differently. While the Vortex is powerful, the Living Tribunal has literal hand waving power and has feats orders of magnitudes above the feats of the Vortex. The only thing comparable to him in Doctor Who is something like the Quantum Archangel or the Key to Time.

The Celestis would not be affected if the Time Vortex changed, or ceased to be:

Mictlan was – in its origin – a metaphysical bomb shelter. Removed

from space-time, it and its occupants (if the two could in any real

sense be distinguished except at the most simplistic of levels) were,

in theory at least, immune to the time winds, to the possible changes

being, or to be, wrought by the war. In theory, even if the Enemy

had turned primordial Gallifrey into atoms or defused Omega’s stellar

manipulator, or aborted the Time Lords’ history in any way, Mictlan

should have remained – a node of information from a previous spacetime

preserved after its collapse by the lack of a causal connection

between itself and the war.

If the Time Vortex ceases to exist, the Celestis still exist.

No, the Daleks were not at the height of their power. Height of their power was the Time War, when they could rewrite history on a whim. They were nowhere near that level in Journey's End, judging by the fact they used physical weapons, which the Time Lords circa the War thought of as tomahawks in a 21st century war, or less than useless. They could have rewritten the Doctor's time line with just some of his blood, something the Enemy (the Daleks, most likely, but that is a debate for another time ;) ) was actually doing to the Doctor. No, they were not at their height. They were a "fully fledged Dalek Empire," but not Time War level.

The Doctor's people built the Time Vortex. I.e., the Eye of Harmony has to govern it, since that is what Rassilon used to build everything. The TARDISes were powered off of it, the Transduction Barrier was powered off of it, etc. Equivalency.

Dude, you are really wanking the Vortex. It is not some omni-thing. Doctor Who has a multiverse, and if you want to call it an omniverse (which Marvel calls theirs), you need to acknowledge that the Whoverse is below the Living Tribunal, as he is above every Marvel thing, short of the HotU (which is TOAA's power). The Doctor Who multiverse is infinite, yes, but not an omniverse. Omni- implies that they have control over other settings, something the BBC does not. Marvel, however, does.Transformers and Marvel and interact, Marvel and Star Wars, Marvel and Star Trek, Marvel and Doctor Who, etc. And all Marvel crossovers get a universe assigned to them, and thus they are part of the cosmic tapestry that the LT presides over. If you want to get into omniverse, the LT wins. So don't bring the omni thing up, unless you have quotes that back up that those other universes are below the DW ones, because Marvel crossovers set that up.

The Void is stated to have NO temporal or spacial dimensions, thus a "space/time vortex" would have nothing to connect to. The Vortex goes through it, yes, but not into it. You compare Time Lords building the Vortex to people building a nuke, but that is not a true comparison. People building a highway would be the same as the Time Lords building the Vortex. Imagine it like this. The Vortex is a superhighway that connects every house in existence. It may pass through empty land, but it doesn't stop there; you have to drive your car off the road to get to the empty land. However, the road is laced with explosives, and one day the builders decide to blow it up. Every house and city goes away from the bang, but the empty lands are still mostly there and intact, and the things that live in them are OK. Such as the Elder Gods, the Eternals (they left reality, the only place to go is the Void, so that has to be where they went), the other beings that are beyond Space/Time (swimmers), etc. Also, some of the beings that live on the Highway survive, as they have bomb shelters built into the highway, or wear really good armor, or just reshape parts of the highway to exist without explosives.

The Elder Gods, Guardians, Grace, etc. would not be harmed by the Vortex doing anything. Heck, the Guardians and Elder Gods can handwave universes (Guardians are like a human to a bug when compared to universe destroying Chronovores and Elder Gods see universes as dust), and thus can most definitely manipulate the Time Vortex. They can screw with space and time on a whim:

Elektra and Prometheus remained silent: there was nothing

to say, nothing to do. Together, the Guardians could bend

reality, fashion space and time to their whims. To them, a

Chronovore and an Eternal were insects – less than insects.

The Chronovores keep the multiverse at a specific limit of universes, a specific infinite. The Guardians are so far above them nothing the Chronovores could do could hurt the Guardians meaningfully. The Elder Gods/Old Ones are also above the entire Eternal Host. They are beyond space time, and can warp it as they see fit without repercussions. The Elder Gods have weapons that destroy reality, casually made in a blacksmith shop in ancient Germany. One that can disintegrate reality itself, all of it, Time Lords, everything. That is above the Time Vortex, in shown feats. You keep saying it is above everything, please provide quotes that prove the Time Vortex is above the Guardians, who are most certainly below the LT, even though quotes say the Time Lords made the Vortex as a way to travel, and the Guardians are at the "handwave away Time Lords and casually ignore Transduction Barrier" level.

@rpottage said:

The Vortex isn't the fifth dimension.

The quote says they go into the 5th dimension and travel through the Vortex. The phrasing of the sentence implies the Vortex and Fifth dimension are one and the same. If you have a quote that proves they are not, please post it. The quote I posted is the closest thing to saying what the Vortex is. But I will drop it, since the quote is ambiguous. However, the Doctor Who multiverse is limited to 11 dimensions; if the LT is 17 dimensional, then the Vortex would not affect all of him, even if somehow the Vortex was more powerful than the IG or Key to Time.

If the Guardians were worried about the Ultimate Sanction, or if the Eternals were, or if the Chronovores were, etc., they would have stopped the War. They are above the Time Lords on the Civilization level, and if they were truly worried about being destroyed by the Ultimate Sanction, they would've stopped it.

@rpottage said:

The third quote has nothing to do with the Vortex at all. It shows he can manipulate the laws of physics; but he still has to be in a place to do it. He at no point creates something from absolute nothingness; he simply manipulates what is already there. He already exists in a place; and that place has dimensions.

Yet, another quote says he created the Vortex. The two quotes together simply mean he created physics, and the Vortex was part of the physics he created.

@rpottage said:

The LT isn't a being of pure consciousness. Beings of pure consciousness is very different; andnot overly well definined. The Old One's aren't immune to the Final Sanction because they live in the Vortex (which was to be ripped open). The Celestis meanwhile didn't live outside of reality. They lived outside the universe; and they were far above normal space-time, but they weren't completely away from it. They simply existed in a much higher dimension; to be specific the extra-dimensional Mictlan. So while they did shed their physical bodies; they didn't exist as beings of pure consciousness, rather they still existed in some physical form, be it as matter or energy of both. Ripping open the vortex would have affected them to as it would have affected their extra-dimensional Mictlan.

The Old Ones (and implied all other beings above Chronovores) are simply using physics as a way to survive, if everything blows up the Old Ones simply continue trolling, as they are (stated by the Carnival Queen) irrational creatures that decided to squish into physics so they didn't get shoved outside of reality by Rassilon. They are going to survive all of it, and they are in feats below the LT. So once again please provide a quote that shows that the Vortex a) can destroy the higher level beings that are explicitly capable of surviving and not caring the Vortex suddenly going away, and b) quotes that say the Vortex was engineered as a weapon and not a superhighway, which it is used as and seen as.

Hope there are no hard feelings, I'm not trying to come off as rude or anything :)

First I'll address your last line: There's no hard feelings and I don't think you're being rude. We're discussing a theoretical battle between an ill-defined Marvel near-god; and a time changing Doctor absorbing an ill-defined extra-dimensional vortex. Obviously there's going to be a lot of room for interpretation. You, I think, have speculated its potential based on the books describe; whereas I have I have speculated based on the limited science described and how that fits in to what we currently know about science. It's really not clear-cut so it's quite natural that we'd have differing opinions on it.
By the way; I don't know if you watched the newest episode that came out today, but somewhat ironically they actually referenced some of the things we've been discussing. They referenced the other universes, the creation of physics by a madman, etc. I thought that was pretty cool.

I'd say the Key to Time would be useless against the LT. The Key to Time was desvribed as being essential to the universe; so there's no evidence that it would effect anything outside the universe.

The passage doesn't say it would survive the vortex; it says it would theoretically survive if Gallifrey was destroyed. I'd say that the fact it references being in a node of space-time means they would be destroyed; but it doesn't clarify what connection the node of space-time has to normal space-time. The fact that they got there from normal space-time means they're connected in someway, but the fact that it says it's a node from a previous space-time makes it less clear.

The show says they were at the height of their power; that's why I said they were.
The Doctor: Last time we fought the Daleks they were scavengers and hybrids. And mad. But this is a fully-fledged Dalek Empire. At the height of its power.

Actually the eye of harmony doesn't have to govern it. In reality it can't govern the vortex because the eye has been time-locked; and it's the lack of access to it that prevents the Tardis from using it as a power source.

You don't understand what the omniverse is. I'm not saying the omniverse because I think Doctor who has one; nobody has an omniverse. The omniverse refers to absolutely everything Doctor Who, Marvel, DC, Star Trek, Image, Twilight, Buffy, etc. all exist within the omniverse. Marvel have a mega-verse; but that mega-verse exists within the omniverse that all things exist within.

That highway thing didn't make anysense.

Anyways; rather than getting into a long drawn debate about the void or about th other beings (there's no point; but for the record the fact that they aren't the one's who stop it doesn't mean they were worried), I'll change tactics on it.

We know that the LT doesn't exist outside the omniverse. We know that he doesn't exist outside of space-time (existing outside of space-time completely means outside the whole of reality, the whole of creation, outside of absolutely everything in pure nothingness; which is the realm of TOAA). Since we know that; what do you think he could do to the Bad Wolf?
I mean you haven't actually given a single example of what you think the LT could do; or what any of those Doctor who beings could do to the Bad Wolf. You've mentioned them as having handwave abilities; but those don't mean anything. It's not a scientific explaination of what you think they could actually do. We know that no spacial based attacks would work and no temporal based attacks would work; so what kind of attack do you think could possibly have an effect on a being that controls the whole of space-time?

#56 Posted by The_Imperator (1928 posts) - - Show Bio

@rpottage said:

First I'll address your last line: There's no hard feelings and I don't think you're being rude. We're discussing a theoretical battle between an ill-defined Marvel near-god; and a time changing Doctor absorbing an ill-defined extra-dimensional vortex. Obviously there's going to be a lot of room for interpretation. You, I think, have speculated its potential based on the books describe; whereas I have I have speculated based on the limited science described and how that fits in to what we currently know about science. It's really not clear-cut so it's quite natural that we'd have differing opinions on it.

By the way; I don't know if you watched the newest episode that came out today, but somewhat ironically they actually referenced some of the things we've been discussing. They referenced the other universes, the creation of physics by a madman, etc. I thought that was pretty cool.

I'd say the Key to Time would be useless against the LT. The Key to Time was desvribed as being essential to the universe; so there's no evidence that it would effect anything outside the universe.

The passage doesn't say it would survive the vortex; it says it would theoretically survive if Gallifrey was destroyed. I'd say that the fact it references being in a node of space-time means they would be destroyed; but it doesn't clarify what connection the node of space-time has to normal space-time. The fact that they got there from normal space-time means they're connected in someway, but the fact that it says it's a node from a previous space-time makes it less clear.

The show says they were at the height of their power; that's why I said they were.

The Doctor

: Last time we fought the Daleks they were scavengers and hybrids. And mad. But this is a fully-fledged Dalek Empire. At the height of its power.

Actually the eye of harmony doesn't have to govern it. In reality it can't govern the vortex because the eye has been time-locked; and it's the lack of access to it that prevents the Tardis from using it as a power source.

You don't understand what the omniverse is. I'm not saying the omniverse because I think Doctor who has one; nobody has an omniverse. The omniverse refers to absolutely everything Doctor Who, Marvel, DC, Star Trek, Image, Twilight, Buffy, etc. all exist within the omniverse. Marvel have a mega-verse; but that mega-verse exists within the omniverse that all things exist within.

That highway thing didn't make anysense.

Anyways; rather than getting into a long drawn debate about the void or about th other beings (there's no point; but for the record the fact that they aren't the one's who stop it doesn't mean they were worried), I'll change tactics on it.

We know that the LT doesn't exist outside the omniverse. We know that he doesn't exist outside of space-time (existing outside of space-time completely means outside the whole of reality, the whole of creation, outside of absolutely everything in pure nothingness; which is the realm of TOAA). Since we know that; what do you think he could do to the Bad Wolf?

I mean you haven't actually given a single example of what you think the LT could do; or what any of those Doctor who beings could do to the Bad Wolf. You've mentioned them as having handwave abilities; but those don't mean anything. It's not a scientific explaination of what you think they could actually do. We know that no spacial based attacks would work and no temporal based attacks would work; so what kind of attack do you think could possibly have an effect on a being that controls the whole of space-time?

Heck yes, loved today's episode, and the nod to the stuff we are discussing made me laugh :)

Personally, I just rule high-level comics characters over anyone in sci-fi on principle, because they pull random BS powers from nowhere more often than the Doctor does, so I am resigned to the fact that the LT wins. He can hold megaverses, is stronger than the Infinity Gauntlet, etc. The IG itself is at least on par with the Key to Time, if not greater, and the Key could destroy all levels of Doctor Who reality short of the Grace (even then, it was iffy in the story, since breaking the Key threw them back into the higher dimensions).

Meant the Dalek Eye of Harmony, not the Time Lord one. (audio stories Time of the Daleks, Genocide Machine, and one other audio I am forgetting). Also, "a fully fledged Dalek Empire. At the height of its power," is not very clear. There have been multiple Dalek Empires with multiple heights :P

What doesn't make sense about the Highway analogy? The Time Lords built the Vortex to travel in; they also set up history, so every point you can get off the Vortex is set up in the map of history the Time Lords created. It is a highway from point to point. The Highway gets blown up, and the only thing left is the areas without any trace of highway, or at least no normal exits (the Void) or those with that had a way to survive the explosion (Time Lords, other pure consciousness beings). But hey, this stuff is all meta, so meh :P

Key to Time was built to control the powers of the multiversal ruling Guardians (Judgment of Isskar, or the third Key to TIme audio, can't recall which), so it is more than just universal.

Or we can just go with the Lawrence Miles version - he explains everything, down to how it works in universe and how it works when affecting other universes in Book of the War and his essay on the Spiral Politic (the thing that defines where points in history are). Book of the War and Dead Romance are both good books if you look into them. Plus, competent Time Lords, Enemy, and Faction Paradox is fun to read. The logical extremes of Time Lord tech, used by a aggressive and competent power is cool to behold.