The Doctor vs Slenderman

I don't really have a good records with battle threads, but this one popped in my head recently. The Doctor battled unimaginable threats, defied SATAN itself (well, maybe Satan) and generally great at facing cosmic horrors face-on.

And the Slenderman, is, umm... IS. (But I hope it isn't.)

Now I wonder, how Doctor would take on such thing. Let's assume it's the current Matt Smith-Doctor, and he has most of his gadgets, including TARDIS. I'm not entirely sure if it helps him...

The Slendy has... err, I don't know what it has, I don't really want to know what it has, the less I know about it is better...

I love them both, but the Doctor will probably beat Slenderman, he's faced down much bigger threats and won. Additionally, the Doctor is going to be really quite pissed at Slendy for it's preference for killing children. And an angry Doctor is something even abstracts would quake their boots in fear over.

Who is Slender Man?

The doctor would eventually beat slendy. But he would obviously have some fun first

Slenderman is a less dangerous version of the Weeping Angels. He's also far too vaguely defined for the purpose of mystery, which doesn't stand to his benefit because a lot of his "supposed" abilities aren't in anyway concrete. Doctor takes it.

Don't **** with the Doctor

The Doctor may find a way to win, but I'll go with Slendy out of loyalty. Doc will have a tough time when he starta coughing his lungs out, and the thing with Slenderman is that once he gets you, you're gotten, period. All it takes it once, no escape. And yes, his abilities are abstract, but for the purposes of feats he has zillions if you count every documentary, blog, and pasta.

The Doctor most likely. There isn't really much that sonic screw driver can't do now........lol

@Joygirl said:

The Doctor may find a way to win, but I'll go with Slendy out of loyalty. Doc will have a tough time when he starta coughing his lungs out, and the thing with Slenderman is that once he gets you, you're gotten, period. All it takes it once, no escape. And yes, his abilities are abstract, but for the purposes of feats he has zillions if you count every documentary, blog, and pasta.

The wheeping angels make slenderman look like nothing, and doctor beat them.

The Doctor in a stomp.

@Pyrogram: Actually i'd say slenderman is more powerful than a weeping angel, as he can teleport and can still move while being looked at.

@duncansdays: That's not a weakness of the Angels, its a defense mechanism. Aside from being hard as stone its a perfect camouflage.

@duncansdays said:

@Pyrogram: Actually i'd say slenderman is more powerful than a weeping angel, as he can teleport and can still move while being looked at.

No. Just No. The weeping angles are infinitely more superior in speed. in a blink you are dead. slenderman takes atleast 5 seconds to kill you, the angels are as fast as blinking speed and faster sometimes depending on how far they are. They would destroy slenderman.

@Pyrogram said:

@duncansdays said:

@Pyrogram: Actually i'd say slenderman is more powerful than a weeping angel, as he can teleport and can still move while being looked at.

No. Just No. The weeping angles are infinitely more superior in speed. in a blink you are dead. slenderman takes atleast 5 seconds to kill you, the angels are as fast as blinking speed and faster sometimes depending on how far they are. They would destroy slenderman.

For the sake of discussion - I don't really know if Slendy even need to blink, so the last suggestion is a bit of a stretch.

Now I've felt their speed is nerfed a bit since their first appearance - in Angels Take Manhattan they're noticably slower, they're only approach in a blink, and kick you in another...

@Kyle_Dornez:

Far as I'm concerned, the only legit appearance of the Weeping Angels is Blink.

@JediXMan said:

@Kyle_Dornez:

Far as I'm concerned, the only legit appearance of the Weeping Angels is Blink.

Very true.

what can a blood lusted doctor do in a random encounter?

seriously all I here is him making abstracts scared.

I hate The slenderman hype. Talk about over rated. Doctor stomps.

@kameo said:

what can a blood lusted doctor do in a random encounter?

seriously all I here is him making abstracts scared.

The Last Great Time war was a war so ferocious that the Eternals, effectively the cosmic gods of the Doctor Who multiverse, ran crying from reality. The Doctor stopped it by entrapping everyone fighting in it in a time lock then blowing them all up with the moment. He's defeated THE Satan, he's brought down Sutekh, a herald level entity at the very least, with his smarts, and talked a Dalek into blowing itself up. This is a guy who resolves the stuff of comic book crisis crossovers on a weekly basis.

@Mirabel:

So your basically saying Lucifer Morningstar, LT, and other cosmic beings in any other universe that are omniversal pale in comparison to what he does on a weekly basis?

@Jodokon said:

@Mirabel:

So your basically saying Lucifer Morningstar, LT, and other cosmic beings in any other universe that are omniversal pale in comparison to what he does on a weekly basis?

He's resolved Multi/Mega/Metaversal buster threats in three consecutive series finales. And it appears that he's become so attached to the fabric of his multiverse that just revealing his real name would end the Doctor Who multiverse. I doubt he could take on the biggest omnipotents unless they were on his turf though and he consumed the entire time vortex like Rose did. I'd rate the Time Vortex as being on LT's level given that it seems to be absolutely integral to the Who multiverse. Of course, consuming the entire time vortex tends to burn most things out.

@Pyrogram: How does he take 5 seconds to kill you? I assume you're making this guess from the game.

@duncansdays said:

@Pyrogram: How does he take 5 seconds to kill you? I guess you're making this guess from the game.

There is no canon in Slenderman, at all. If I were to write a fanfic about Slenderman harassing lawyers in a lepperchaun suit it'd be as valid as any of the video series.

@Mirabel said:

@Jodokon said:

@Mirabel:

So your basically saying Lucifer Morningstar, LT, and other cosmic beings in any other universe that are omniversal pale in comparison to what he does on a weekly basis?

He's resolved Multi/Mega/Metaversal buster threats in three consecutive series finales. And it appears that he's become so attached to the fabric of his multiverse that just revealing his real name would end the Doctor Who multiverse. I doubt he could take on the biggest omnipotents unless they were on his turf though and he consumed the entire time vortex like Rose did. I'd rate the Time Vortex as being on LT's level given that it seems to be absolutely integral to the Who multiverse. Of course, consuming the entire time vortex tends to burn most things out.

Well....this I possibly do know one person that could take down the Doctor(Highly doubt he could, and I literally mean I highly doubt he could even though I hate the Doctor(All of them to) )

But:

Due to him being a Paradox himself(After meeting and killing his former self) and being able to Corpse possess(Could do it to Rose and gain her godly power as he long as he is in her body), I know he can't match the Doctor in Raw Power which is light years away, but durability pretty much is in Raziels game .(Possibly as long as their is a spectral Realm).

*Back on Topic*

Even though I despise All the Doctors and the Show itself, I have to give to him.

@Lord_Johnathan: Yes, yes I am.

@Pyrogram

I know the doctor would eventually win but slender man does not take 5 seconds to kill you. The only reason he kills his prey slowly is because he enjoys watching them suffer as they slowly turn insane.

The Doctor

My Doctor Who fanboy sense is tingling, must nitpick :P Technically, he has a respiratory bypass system that will allow him to not have to breath for short intervals, such as in a vacuum, in a toxic atmosphere, etc.

Again, nitpick, IIRC we aren't told WHY the Eternals leave, just that they leave. They may have just been sickened with the War, since it technically wouldn't have affected them (they are beyond time and all that jazz). The Beast is non-quantifiable, but yeah, he has ridiculous talking down feats.

No, Time Vortex is nowhere near LT's level. Eye of Harmony would be above Eternity, but it takes something like the Key to Time of Quantum Archangel to even approach LT. And the name thing is not certain; "Silence will fall" when the question is answered may simply be that the organization will fall, not that the universe will fall silent.

To the OP - the Doctor takes this.

@the_imperator:

Now I have to nitpick. You say the the Time Vortex is nowhere near LT level; however the Time Vortex gives complete control over all space-time, including to the point of creating paradoxes to such a degree that it can create itself and undo death permanently. It also gives you the ability to see everything that ever was, is, and ever could be.

That would be Omniscience and Nigh-Omnipotence; the same things which LT possesses. In addition it's possible that it also has omnipresence as it absorbs the Vortex which exists everywhere; certainly the Bad Wolf can see everything and affect it all.

As well the Bad Wolf would likely be far more powerful than the Key to Time as the Key, iirc, was described as giving complete control over the universe where as the Bad Wolf has complete control over all space-time via the Vortex; and we know from the series that the Time Vortex exists everywhere. It exists all through the universe, it exists in alternate universes (such as when they used it to return from Pete's World); and it exists in the Hub that connects all realities (The Medusa Cascade where the Daleks were going to use their reality bomb to destroy all realities). That would make the Vortex itself omniversal; and thus make the Bad Wolf Omniversal.

Just a note before you reply; a common misconception is that because the Tardis was drained of power getting to Pete's world that it meant the Vortex didn't work there. In actuality the Doctor explains that the universe is the wrong type of energy for the Tardis; he also explains that when the Time Lords around universe hopping was fairly easy (the likelyhood is because instead of powering the Tardis by the universe; the Tardis used the Eye of Harmony which could provide power outside the universe). Thus the fact that the Tardis itself could not run off the power in other universes is irrelevent to the issue of the Time Vortex (which did exist there as they were able to leave the universe through it, something they could not have done had it not existed there).

I would say then, that Omniversal complete control over all space-time and Omniversal Omniscience would indeed put it on the LT's level.

Ummm, no, the Vortex works everywhere, I realize that (IIRC, the novel was one of the Time Wyrm ones that established the Vortex as the fifth Dimension). And no, Time Vortex is limited to 5 dimensions or less, as it IS the Fifth Dimension. It is what Chronovores and Eternals hang out in, though they are 6th and 7th Dimensional beings.

The Key to Time regulates everything. As shown in the audio series with the Fifth Doctor and the Key to Time, if it breaks the universe (and thus the multiverse, since the main universe is the prime universe) begins to break down. It's break down even affects and drains the Guardians, beings who are way beyond the universe destroying Chornovores. Thus, it has power over the Time Vortex. Added to that, beings like Eternals are outside of time, thus they are unaffected by time changes, as are Chronovores and the possible universe busting Eldar Gods. The Vortex is powerful, but is below things such as Time Lords, Time War Daleks, and species of that level. They have tech that literaly makes the entire physical+temporal universe bend over and take it.

While the Vortex is powerful, it is itself time. A being beyond time is unaffected by it, short of straight up attacks from it. It can turn Eternals into mortals, though Chronovores eat the energy of entire universes, so they are most certainly beyond Rose. Heck, memetic entities (things that would cause the Bad Wolf meme) are common, mundane weapons of Time Lord level species.

Basically, the Vortex powers, while stunning, don't have the feats as of right now to stand up to LT or others. LT can hand wave universes, hold Megaverses, etc. When someone uses the Vortex to do that, I will accept that it is on the level of the LT.

Both are awesome but The Doctor wins he has fought unquestionably worse.

No; in order to be a 5th dimension it must be bound to the universe. It is not; rather it exists outside normal space-time. Novels aren't necessarily considered canon btw; otherwise that would directly conflict with the novel Just War where the Time Vortex connects all points in space-time (which would include higher dimensios).

No. First; there's nothing to say that if one universe goes they all go. Second; the time-travellers use the time-vortex to travel and thus cannot simply be above it. Third; it's explicitly stated that a Time Lord absorbing the Vortex turns into a vengeful god (thus above time-lords) and it was directly shown they have the power to mercilessly slaughter Daleks including the Dalek God.

Here's your only real argument of substance; and it basically coms down to feats. No; the bad wolf entity does not have feat because they don't turn into it, however do know what it's capable of and as demonstrated it's capable of that across the omniverse. Thus simply dismissing it is the same as simply dismissing Superman Prime 1 Million or any number of characters intended solely for limited appearances.

I will get the relevant book quotes later today. The BBC has no canon policy, they all count. Also, you have to realize "all points in space/time" doesn't mean higher dimensions, as space is 3 dimensions and time is 4 and 5. Time Lords have the ability to destroy/annihilate/crush etc. the Time Vortex, and they are below the Guardians, who are definitely below Lucifer. Heck, the Time Lords can do nothing against the whole Host of the Chronovores, and that would mean nothing they have would be effective against the whole Host. Eternals are beyond time, as stated in their episode, so nothing short of blasting them with the power of the vortex as a cannon is going to do much to them.

Vengeful God - doesn't matter if it erases something, Time Lords or Daleks just come back or go troll people in their erased form. It can destroy, erase, blow up, etc., but it isn't getting through transduction barriers or any adequately defended Time Lord ship. Time Lords time lines are protected from everything short of anti-time, which would be the antithesis of the Time Vortex. The Time Lords created the Time Vortex, they are above it.

Hey, The_Dreadnought here (and also Mirabel, I alt heavily). Thanks for correcting me, but I don't really stick around here anymore. The formatting is atrocious and butt ugly so I've decided to make my move to spacebattles.com permanent.

The issue with judging the Slender Man's combat capabilities is that it's feats are all over the place and due to it's nature it is portrayed in a different way by every single person who writes about it. The only common theme running through the Mythos is that Slender Man always wins. Every time, no matter how hard you fight or how well prepared you think you are. The only problem is that the Doctor has the same thing going for him-he never really loses.

Feats

Slender Man at his strongest (typically in the blogs) is probably as dangerous as anything the Doctor has ever faced. Absolutely immortal (not truly alive, but can never die), invincible and for all intents and purposes a fully powered Eldritch Abomination capable of whatever it puts it's mind to. At his weakest (I'd say Marble Hornets), he still almost always displays intangibility, the ability to manipulate time as well as the aforementioned amortality. It's biggest weakness appears to be sheer stupidity: whether it's portrayed as a deity in and of itself or just a foe only dangerous due to the weakness of it's targets, Slender Man typically shows no desire to actually use it's power to accomplish anything. Some interpretations do portray it as intelligent, but it's impossible to say for certain.

The Doctor has the advantage of 50 years worth of feats (yes, he wasn't on air for a lot of that but material kept on coming) which are sufficient in scope to make a valid argument that the Doctor can beat literally anything below the Living Tribunal and top-tier abstracts (maybe an exaggeration, but you get the idea) He's a walking plot device only constrained by his morals-and when you consider that Slender Man targets helpless people and children most of all, I doubt his morals will apply.

Conclusion

I'm actually leaning towards a stalemate here.

Point 1: The Doctor's extremely unlikely to use the Bad Wolf, no matter what his morals are like, so I'm ignoring that unless we go with the 'Slender Man is Godlike'' description, as something like that would prompt the Doctor to go all-out. On the other hand, the Bad Wolf is a being with absolute dominion over time. As the Slender Man is often portrayed as existing outside of time, it's possible (although unlikely) that the Bad Wolf would be useless against the Slender Man. If this is the case, Slender Man cannot be defeated, only bound-and with the Slender Man's superior combat skills, I would argue that in a case like this a Godlike Slenderman would be beyond the Doctor's capacity to seal.

Point 2: Slender Man wears a snappy suit. However, it is probable that the power of the Doctor's fez cancels this out, giving the Doctor's bowtie the time it needs to take Slender Man out.

Point 3: Prep is crucial. Without prep, Slender Man wins this so fast it's a spite battle. It's portrayed as strong enough to tear apart entire squads of soldiers with absolute ease, it has sufficient mind control powers to take over his companions, which could lead to the Doctor being weakened further by a Heroic BSOD and finally even the Marble Hornet's Slender Man has shown itself to be capable of telporting others so if could win simply via BFR. The fact is that the Doctor has relatively few combat options without prep.

Point 4: The Doctor has taken out far better. Arguably via massive application of the glory that is PIS, but it's still a hugely important point.

Point 5: The Slender Man has consistently shown itself to be above both the laws of physics and, more importantly, capable of utterly negating or manipulating the effects of technology. It's possible that this could affect all of the Doctor's gadgets (except of course the Tardis) Unlikely, but worth a mention.

I'm a huge fan of both the Mythos and Dr Who, but I think that the problem is Slender Man is so different in every show or blog, too different to even class it as one character. With power levels as nebulous as his, I think that it might be better for Slender Man to be banned from the Battles section.

If Slender Man is at maximum power and the Doctor has prep: Slender takes it but barely

If Slender Man is at minimum power and the Doctor has prep: Doctor destroys.

If Slender Man is at any power level and this is a random encounter: Slender slaughters.

If the battle takes place in a Doctor Who episode: It's a two-parter where the Doctor finally manages to lock the Slender Man out of the continuum , effectively rendering it impotent. Companion probably dies.

Overall, stalemate but I really feel that Slender Man battles just shouldn't happen because it has literally never lost, so we have no idea how much power is necessary to take it out. The argument is of course that it only appears to be infinitely powerful because it exists in a superpower free world, but we can never really know for certain.

In cases where the books contradict the show; the show takes precendence.

Now let's get right down to it; dimensions are simply points in space-time Being 6th dimensional doesn't mean you exist outside space-time; rather you exist in it and just operate at higher dimensions in it. Instead of operating as a line (first), box (second), or cube (third); you operate with either 5 dimensions in space (penteract) plus the dimension of time; or 6 dimension in space (hexeract) plus the dimension of time. But either way you still exist within space-time.
Everything exists in space-time. The only way to exist outside of it is to exist outside of the omniverse in nothingness. If you exist in the omniverse then you exist in a place; that place (wherever it is, no matter how many dimensions) exists within space-time.

They are not above the space-time vortex (I point out the space part because I think you like many others forget that the vortex isn't simply time but rather space-time). Nor can they adequately defend against it or other things. In Parting of Ways and Bad Wolf the Daleks were unable to defend against the Vortex or the Tardis travelling through it. Even when they had a massive fleet at the height of their power they were unable to defend against the Tardis from using the Vortex to travel in and outside of the crucible (thus allowing Donna to escape and return completely unnoticed). Similarily the Tardis shields could not protect it against the Dalek weaponry.

Finally I will address your point about the Time-Lords trying to destroy the Vortex. That, unfortunately, is actually a point against you. If you'll recall; the Doctor stopped the Time Lords from initiating the final sanction precisely because ripping open the vortex was going to destroy the whole of creation. Remember it wasn't simply one planet, one galaxy, or even one universe; the Final Sanction was going to elevate them to beings of pure consciousness by destroying the whole of creation. Such a thing would also destroy the LT and every other being that exists within the omniverse as it would destroy the omniverse which exists within creation. They were going to use the vortex to destroy all of creation, all reality, the entire omniverse; and they were going to do it by ripping open the space-time vortex. That actually supports my point of view by pointing out how powerful it is (I.E. powerful enough to affect the entire omniverse).

Void is outside Space/Time, the Swimmers live outside Space/Time (outside of all universes), etc.

Yes, they are above it:

‘I’m not sure about the technicalities. In layman’s terms

the TARDIS removes itself from Minkowski space, then

integrates itself into a fifth dimension. It travels through

something called the Vortex, a transdimensional spiral built

by the Doctor’s people which encompasses all points in

space and time. Then, the TARDIS just reorientates itself at

the other end, and reestablishes a plasmic real-world

interface.’

From the Novel: Just War.

The Final Sanction would have destroyed everything, but not the higher level beings. Heck, the higher level beings survived all dimensions in their mutliverse collapsing by jumping dimensions. That implies the pre-current version of the Time Vortex didn't destroy everything.

`As their universe reached the point of collapse, a group of

these "Time Lords" shunted themselves into a parallel

dimension which collapsed seconds after ours. Moments later,

they erupted into our universe, and soon discovered that they

were in possession of undreamt of powers.'

From: Millenial Rites

And again:

Once upon a time, she said, this was your universe. Long

before your time, before any time that you could measure. A

place of endless miracles, non? No harsh sciences here, no

mundane little laws of physics, no guiding principles. There

was just possibility. An infinity of possibility. Now. Look.

Chris wasn’t watching the city any more. There was a

different world etched into the Carnival Queen’s expression

now, a world inhabited by people; people he could recognize

as people, not monsters or automatons. The cities were just as

large, but there were less of the impossible things. The planet

looked... well, reasonable. Sort of.

From: Christmas on a Rational Planet

There weren't laws of physics before the Time Lords. No Vortex, no dimensions, just irrationality shaped by living things minds. Heck, the Time Lords actually used irrationality to make the universe rational.

Rassilon himself wrote the laws of physics with his mind, a specifically new set of physical laws, which implies the old ones were dumped. The Vortex follows physical laws. It is the Fifth dimension, and as such higher dimensions follow physical laws, the Vortex was affected.

Omega could feel Rassilon’s mind once again. He lifted

his head, strained to hear the voice far above him.

But the mind wasn’t speaking to him, it was speaking to

the black hole, encompassing it, manipulating it. By sheer

force of will, Rassilon passed a new law of physics. He struck

up equilibrium, established beautifully elaborate equations. A

surface appeared upon the darkness, a surface from which

the escape velocity was exactly the speed of light. The naked

singularity was covered, the hole in the universe was sealed

over, and outside the storm was subsiding

From: Infinity Doctors. And before you say "It's not canon," Omega states that every Omega in the multiverse ends in the same way, with the exact same circumstances and thoughts, or is killed outright.

That Black Hole is the Eye of Harmony. In the Threshold story line in the Doctor Who comics, the Threshold uses their own EoH to remove hyperspace, IIRC. Add to that that the Time Lords can simply remove time from places in reality if they so desire, means they can cut off places from the Vortex. They can use the Eye of Harmony to change physical laws, which means the Vortex (as the Fifth Dimension) would be affected.

Destruction of the Vortex does nothing to consciousnesses. The Great Old Ones live as disembodied thought patterns within the Vortex, and the only other example of that kind of being (the Celestis) ignore anything short of memetic attacks. And even then, the memetic attack has to somehow encompass the entire idea of the Celestis to kill it. Rassilon said in The End of Time that they would live on to become creatures of pure consciousness, which means those kinds of beings can survive the end. LT is so far above the shown feats of any of the pure consciousness beings in Doctor Who that it isn't a contest. He is second to TOAA, which means he is effectively omnipotent in nearly every case.

The Elder Gods in Doctor Who exist outside of reality, in the Void between universes. They see universes as dust particles, worthless and easily destroyed. And these are the pre-universe Time Lords. (Gods and Monsters) They are beyond the universe, in the void, which means they are outside the Time Vortex.

The beings of Nobody No One's dimension were made up of language. Time changes don't affect them, they are simply meaning, given form. Destroying time would do nothing to that, as meaning can be found at a quantum level.

The Daleks had their own Eye of Harmony, they could do whatever they wanted to physics, unless it was directly countered by the Time Lords. Which means...

... that these Daleks were nowhere near at the height of their power. RTD references the audios where the Daleks get the knowledge to build transduction barriers and Eyes of Harmony as part of the build up for the Time War, so even if you want to count show only, he was using them to craft in his head the Time War. If the Daleks had been full Time War level, they would have pushed a button and nanoprobed Earth into whatever they wanted and been immune to near that whole brainwave thing the Doctor was going to do. Which means he obviously did not think that they had an Eye of Harmony or transduction barriers, so the Doctor's actions say that the Daleks were not full strength. Beyond that, full strength Daleks could have just casually time traveled to whenever and dicked around, since an Eye of Harmony meant they couldn't be truly stopped, just stalemated. Heck, Daleks had nano-bots pre-Time War (Asylum of the Daleks, that prison was pre-Time War), and thus wouldn't have had to stupidly wait for decades to convert people, they could've mass converted Earth and the station. The Emperor was crazy, he wouldn't have waited that long if he could've avoided it.

I will concede this point, I was wrong.

The Doctor has at a minimum 17 separate time line pasts, all co-existing in one body. Pretty much anything with him counts, as it all happened to the main Doctor, and we have know way of knowing which ones didn't.

I also have to say, the Doctor Who multiverse is possibly part of Marvel. Which means, by default, the Living Tribunal is over everything. :P /joke

http://www.paulcornell.com/2007/02/canonicity-in-doctor-who.html Paul Cornell, a writer for Doctor Who, on the BBC Canon policy. Which is, nothing. They've never said what is and isn't canon, and haven't said something is non-canon, unless it blatantly has no relation to the show (Scream of the Shalka, Curse of Fatal Death, etc.)

The void actually isn't outside of space-time. Time and space do exist there in some fashion; but it's very different from the normal universe. Tardis ships, however, were designed to be able to travel through the void; but as the walls of reality closed that became more difficult and nearly impossible. Before the Time Lords vanished, however, they did travel through the void. It does have space and time in some fashion though; and would have been destroyed by the reality bomb because of it (the reality bomb wouldn't destroy anything outside of reality). Similarily the swimmers didn't live outside space-time, they simply lived in the void between universes (which would basically be the multiverse itself).

The first quote doesn't say anything about being above it. They built it sure; but you can build things without being above them. We build nuclear weapons, for instance, and we're not above them; they'll wipe us out in an instant.

The second quote doesn't deal with a the vortex being ripped open; it deals with a universe dieing. That's different; our universe will eventually die even without a vortex being ripped open.

The third quote doesn't say there were no dimensions. It says there was no time that he would be able to measure and does say it was a place. That means that dimensions of space did exist (I.E. there were places) and that time did exist but that it wasn't something he could measure. Such a thing happened in our universe right after the big bang. If you go back you will find that a period where time existed but not as we know it. Rather there was a period after the big bang where time existed but was so completely distorted as to have no real meaning to us today. I believe generally the period is from the formation of the big bang to Plank Time. After the Big Bang but before Plank Time; Time was a complete mess. Anouther, but different, example would be time in Black-holes. The severe gravity in Black-holes distort space-time to such a degree that measuring time would make no sense.

The third quote has nothing to do with the Vortex at all. It shows he can manipulate the laws of physics; but he still has to be in a place to do it. He at no point creates something from absolute nothingness; he simply manipulates what is already there. He already exists in a place; and that place has dimensions.

The Vortex isn't the fifth dimension.

The LT isn't a being of pure consciousness. Beings of pure consciousness is very different; andnot overly well definined. The Old One's aren't immune to the Final Sanction because they live in the Vortex (which was to be ripped open). The Celestis meanwhile didn't live outside of reality. They lived outside the universe; and they were far above normal space-time, but they weren't completely away from it. They simply existed in a much higher dimension; to be specific the extra-dimensional Mictlan. So while they did shed their physical bodies; they didn't exist as beings of pure consciousness, rather they still existed in some physical form, be it as matter or energy of both. Ripping open the vortex would have affected them to as it would have affected their extra-dimensional Mictlan.

Now I said before that the LT isn't a being of pure consciousness; and he isn't. Rather his power is derived from being an extra-dimensional being (he's 12th dimension or 17th dimensional or something like that). So while he's far above everyone else in the marvel-verse; he's still bound to the omniverse and to space-time, he's simply able to manipulate it far better than the normal being. A being who controls the whole of space-time across the omniverse might be able to beat him; but assuming he exists across all dimensions (which is I believe the point) he might be able to stalemate such a being (theoretically controlling all of space-time should still give them the win since he would simply be manipulating the universe through extra-dimensions while the being would completely control all those dimensions and could use them against him; but with such powerful beings they're always ill-defined and hard to judge).

The Quantum level is still part of reality. I think you're forgetting that the vortex doesn't simply deal with time and it isn't 5th dimensional. The Space-time Vortex deals with the whole of Space-time across the omniverse; which is absolutely everything. It includes the void between universes, it includes the highest dimensions and the lowest dimensions; it exists in black-holes and exists across the whole omniverse right down to the lowest possible area (including the quantum level).

The part I said that started with "Even when they were at the height of their power" was referring to The Stolen Earth and Journey's End when the Dalek fleet was at the height of its power. They were Time-War Daleks with The Dalek Emperor and Davros. They were able to shift the Medusa Cascade 1 second out of time and made it a hub to the whole of reality. The ripped planets out of the sky with great ease. And even then, when they were at the height of their power; they still couldn't prevent the Tardis from leaving their power-core to go outside the crucible; then materializing back in the crucible later. They were at the absolute height of their power and even then their sheilds were absoultely useless against the Tardis from materializing via the Space-Time Vortex.

When I said that the show is canon over the books; I wasn't say no books are canon. I originally said books aren't necessarily considered canon; I said necessarily because they can be but not always. When they conflict with the show, the show is what counts. I'm not talking about time-lines so much as vital facts. For instace; you said that the books make the Vortex seem 5th dimensional. However the show makes it clear that the Vortex can be used to travel anywhere in the omniverse which is far greater than 5th dimensional. 5th dimensional is bound to this universe, the Vortex isn't. In that case the two facts go against each other; so the show is the one that wins out.

Funny; but Doctor Who isn't part of the Marvel multi-verse. You can tell because it actually does its cross over with Star Trek; an Star Trek does cross overs with DC (the legion thing).

@rpottage: We are going to have to agree to disagree then here, because we are both taking quotes and applying them differently. While the Vortex is powerful, the Living Tribunal has literal hand waving power and has feats orders of magnitudes above the feats of the Vortex. The only thing comparable to him in Doctor Who is something like the Quantum Archangel or the Key to Time.

The Celestis would not be affected if the Time Vortex changed, or ceased to be:

Mictlan was – in its origin – a metaphysical bomb shelter. Removed

from space-time, it and its occupants (if the two could in any real

sense be distinguished except at the most simplistic of levels) were,

in theory at least, immune to the time winds, to the possible changes

being, or to be, wrought by the war. In theory, even if the Enemy

had turned primordial Gallifrey into atoms or defused Omega’s stellar

manipulator, or aborted the Time Lords’ history in any way, Mictlan

should have remained – a node of information from a previous spacetime

preserved after its collapse by the lack of a causal connection

between itself and the war.

If the Time Vortex ceases to exist, the Celestis still exist.

No, the Daleks were not at the height of their power. Height of their power was the Time War, when they could rewrite history on a whim. They were nowhere near that level in Journey's End, judging by the fact they used physical weapons, which the Time Lords circa the War thought of as tomahawks in a 21st century war, or less than useless. They could have rewritten the Doctor's time line with just some of his blood, something the Enemy (the Daleks, most likely, but that is a debate for another time ;) ) was actually doing to the Doctor. No, they were not at their height. They were a "fully fledged Dalek Empire," but not Time War level.

The Doctor's people built the Time Vortex. I.e., the Eye of Harmony has to govern it, since that is what Rassilon used to build everything. The TARDISes were powered off of it, the Transduction Barrier was powered off of it, etc. Equivalency.

Dude, you are really wanking the Vortex. It is not some omni-thing. Doctor Who has a multiverse, and if you want to call it an omniverse (which Marvel calls theirs), you need to acknowledge that the Whoverse is below the Living Tribunal, as he is above every Marvel thing, short of the HotU (which is TOAA's power). The Doctor Who multiverse is infinite, yes, but not an omniverse. Omni- implies that they have control over other settings, something the BBC does not. Marvel, however, does.Transformers and Marvel and interact, Marvel and Star Wars, Marvel and Star Trek, Marvel and Doctor Who, etc. And all Marvel crossovers get a universe assigned to them, and thus they are part of the cosmic tapestry that the LT presides over. If you want to get into omniverse, the LT wins. So don't bring the omni thing up, unless you have quotes that back up that those other universes are below the DW ones, because Marvel crossovers set that up.

The Void is stated to have NO temporal or spacial dimensions, thus a "space/time vortex" would have nothing to connect to. The Vortex goes through it, yes, but not into it. You compare Time Lords building the Vortex to people building a nuke, but that is not a true comparison. People building a highway would be the same as the Time Lords building the Vortex. Imagine it like this. The Vortex is a superhighway that connects every house in existence. It may pass through empty land, but it doesn't stop there; you have to drive your car off the road to get to the empty land. However, the road is laced with explosives, and one day the builders decide to blow it up. Every house and city goes away from the bang, but the empty lands are still mostly there and intact, and the things that live in them are OK. Such as the Elder Gods, the Eternals (they left reality, the only place to go is the Void, so that has to be where they went), the other beings that are beyond Space/Time (swimmers), etc. Also, some of the beings that live on the Highway survive, as they have bomb shelters built into the highway, or wear really good armor, or just reshape parts of the highway to exist without explosives.

The Elder Gods, Guardians, Grace, etc. would not be harmed by the Vortex doing anything. Heck, the Guardians and Elder Gods can handwave universes (Guardians are like a human to a bug when compared to universe destroying Chronovores and Elder Gods see universes as dust), and thus can most definitely manipulate the Time Vortex. They can screw with space and time on a whim:

Elektra and Prometheus remained silent: there was nothing

to say, nothing to do. Together, the Guardians could bend

reality, fashion space and time to their whims. To them, a

Chronovore and an Eternal were insects – less than insects.

The Chronovores keep the multiverse at a specific limit of universes, a specific infinite. The Guardians are so far above them nothing the Chronovores could do could hurt the Guardians meaningfully. The Elder Gods/Old Ones are also above the entire Eternal Host. They are beyond space time, and can warp it as they see fit without repercussions. The Elder Gods have weapons that destroy reality, casually made in a blacksmith shop in ancient Germany. One that can disintegrate reality itself, all of it, Time Lords, everything. That is above the Time Vortex, in shown feats. You keep saying it is above everything, please provide quotes that prove the Time Vortex is above the Guardians, who are most certainly below the LT, even though quotes say the Time Lords made the Vortex as a way to travel, and the Guardians are at the "handwave away Time Lords and casually ignore Transduction Barrier" level.

The quote says they go into the 5th dimension and travel through the Vortex. The phrasing of the sentence implies the Vortex and Fifth dimension are one and the same. If you have a quote that proves they are not, please post it. The quote I posted is the closest thing to saying what the Vortex is. But I will drop it, since the quote is ambiguous. However, the Doctor Who multiverse is limited to 11 dimensions; if the LT is 17 dimensional, then the Vortex would not affect all of him, even if somehow the Vortex was more powerful than the IG or Key to Time.

If the Guardians were worried about the Ultimate Sanction, or if the Eternals were, or if the Chronovores were, etc., they would have stopped the War. They are above the Time Lords on the Civilization level, and if they were truly worried about being destroyed by the Ultimate Sanction, they would've stopped it.

Yet, another quote says he created the Vortex. The two quotes together simply mean he created physics, and the Vortex was part of the physics he created.

The Old Ones (and implied all other beings above Chronovores) are simply using physics as a way to survive, if everything blows up the Old Ones simply continue trolling, as they are (stated by the Carnival Queen) irrational creatures that decided to squish into physics so they didn't get shoved outside of reality by Rassilon. They are going to survive all of it, and they are in feats below the LT. So once again please provide a quote that shows that the Vortex a) can destroy the higher level beings that are explicitly capable of surviving and not caring the Vortex suddenly going away, and b) quotes that say the Vortex was engineered as a weapon and not a superhighway, which it is used as and seen as.

Hope there are no hard feelings, I'm not trying to come off as rude or anything :)

@rpottage: Also, if you know where any quotes are and would like me to get them for you if you don't have books or audios, I will dig through my collection and find them if you don't have the source of something :)

The Doctor is overrated more than Batman

seriously all I hear is bull of him making abstracts quake in fear but in his show he's running away from people with guns

Teh doctor gets killed by Slender man because he's no better than a regular human, his Tardis is what makes him a threat nothing else.

uh no

I think that The Doctor will beat Slendy.

Uh yes, unless running away from people using gun is a feat of power, cause if it is I guess your average street thug can match him >_>

seriously what stops slendy from impaling The Doctor?

and don't give bull about him traveling to the time of creation and threatening abstracts and crap because he needs the TARDIS for pretty much everything.

He uses his Sonic Screwdriver to do something, since it is effectively a plot device that does anything short of affecting wood. That's how he does things now.

He used the TARDIS to get to places, but he himself is what abstracts in Doctor Who are afraid of. And even when they aren't, they learn to be. Heck, he outsmarted the entire host of the Elder Gods within a day of learning that they were using him. He has in universe BS plot shields that basically turn his enemies stupid. He is a stupidly broken character, who simply doesn't make use of all the things at his disposal, because he has rules and it would be no fun.

lol that's not gonna help in a battle, PIS is off in battles because they won't work

the only thing the doctor has is smarts, Slendy is more stats than actual feats

teleportation behind doctor + back stab = win

no doubt the doctor is incredibly smart, but if that's all he got (besides plot shields) he gets one shotted

don't get me wrong he's a good character, but in battle threads it's best to keep him in intelligence themed battles only.

0:45.. yeah, afraid of guns.

1:40.

He has got canon plot shields.. One does not simply impale the doctor.

Also, he said that tardis is a part of himself. (He's a part of the circuit, actually). No one's scared of the tardis, they're scared of the doctor.

The Doctor shouldn't be in any battles, period. Because he either stomps or is stomped. :P

Gotta point out that his PIS wouldn't go away, though. It is intrinsic to him, and other characters have even stolen it from him before (Eighth Doctor Sabbath novels) and abused them for fun and profit. He's just not a good character for debating since he quite literally runs on the power of plot.

Other characters in the show are much more easily debateable. Daleks, Time Lords, Sontarans, Earth, etc.

I totally agree with you on that

@princearagorn1:

why does he get captured than

and why does he need to use a gun if he's part of the TARDIS