#1 Posted by HammerTron (611 posts) - - Show Bio

The Borg [IMG]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o241/Synch1/Star%20Trek/Borg_3891.jpg[/IMG] vs. The Empire [IMG]http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h74/hhhhhh_01/Deathstar.jpg[/IMG] The entire Empire galaxy vs. the enitre Milky Way galaxy. The Empire and the Borg send all their forces against each other for total control of two galaxies. Who wins?

#2 Posted by HammerTron (611 posts) - - Show Bio

I wanted to add pictures, but it doesn't appear to have worked. Any ideas?

#3 Posted by Picard (999 posts) - - Show Bio

Borg will win. Assimilation, auto-regeneration, transporters, personal shields. :)

#4 Posted by jojjimbo (2472 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader solos...

; P

#5 Posted by Jeronimo (699 posts) - - Show Bio

Once the Borg assimilate the Death Star and the Executor, the Empire goes down hard.

#6 Posted by weaponx (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

Very hard for me... star trek is more flashy, but I really don't know how to compare their fire power. IMO borg personal shields were not all that strong anyways, and who knows what kind of modulation frequency problems the borg could have (but that is just wishful thinking perhaps). At the same time, Star Wars U upper tier characters could do some pretty awesome mind raping etc to borg queens for example. And I am SURE the death star can take out cubes..

#7 Posted by kingwallytw (14 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem of this topic is the concept of the borg. If you think about it, the borg should be borderline unbeatable in star trek, but since the plot line needs the federation to survive, they are weakened. One example is the speed of the borg. With all of their technological improvements, they should move faster. Also, with a hive mind, the only reason that queens were added was to make the borg collective easier to defeat at times.

Same goes for empire- Yoda says that size does not matter for the force, yet Yoda didn't pushed the death star into a sun in the fourth movie. That given, the force is probably actually limited by size, and the assimilation of empire ships would not be stopped by the force (i.e. crushing a cube)

Answer is simple- the methods that the galactic empire uses to maintain power creates dissent. If they can't stop rebels from killing them, the borg sure won't help.

#8 Edited by Jeronimo (699 posts) - - Show Bio

@weaponx said:

And I am SURE the death star can take out cubes..

Yeah, probably. But can the Death Star hold back an entire armada of Borg cubes? Only one cube has to make it to within transporter range and then it's done. Assimilation begins.

I haven't seen techno feats in Star Wars that come close to what Star Trek has demonstrated. The SW battle are always a derivation of brute force whereas in ST technology is used more as a weapon.

SW universe has no answer to the Borg in my mind. At least for now.

I love SW but ST takes this one.

#9 Posted by weaponx (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jeronimo: Very true, but there is also the armada of the empire to at the very list, will keep the borg busy... I agree the tech seems much better in ST but I really don't know how to compare SW weapons/shields with ST weapons/shields. I also don't know how that differs in the comics.... Guess I don't know much ;).

#10 Posted by WillPayton (9476 posts) - - Show Bio

This isnt even a fight, the Borg destroy the Empire with ease.

The Empire weapons are lasers, which would have no effect on Trek shields. In fact any Trek ship with shields and phasers/photons would solo the Empire. Hell, the Empire has no defense against transporting weapons directly inside their ships.

Any one Borg Cube solos.

Online
#11 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Borg don't just go for an all out war unless they are threatened. They will attack a few lone ships to adopt and assimilate your technology, then go after a planet. A single cube could take on many starships. For large targets, I can see them just transporting troops inside and having them assimilating the ships or the death star from within. If the Borg sent 5 cubes, they could take earth in their universe. I think they don't to test their own evolution.

#12 Posted by acer51 (2237 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx: But the Op says It's an all out battle so Borg easily.

#13 Posted by Freefa11 (2389 posts) - - Show Bio

@weaponx: Firepower is overwhelmingly in favor of the Empire. I believe that Stardestroyer heavy turbolasers are ranked in the 200 gigaton range, whereas standard photon torpedos have a max yield of 64 megatons, making the SDs around 30,000 times more powerful (shot for shot; that's ignoring that as an explosion, at least half the torpedos energy will be spreading out away from its target, instead of going into it). ISD shields, I believe, are typically somewhere in the terraton range (meaning they should be able to absorb 5+ heavy turbolaser shots from another ISD before failing, which isn't even very impressive, relatively speaking, if you think about it).

This topic has come up many, many times over the years. The Borg winning tends to revolve completely around invoking a no-limits fallacy in their favor; they can adapt to some things, therefore they can adapt to ANYTHING; they can assimilate some things, therefore they can assimilate ANYTHING.

The problem is not only is that inherently illogical (hence, why it is called a fallacy), but even within Trek, it doesn't really hold. The Borg were virtually crushed by Species 8472, proving they are hardly invincible. Even in their first appearance, the Enterprise inflicted severe damage to the Cube and could have almost certainly destroyed it if Picard had not been so concerned with proving his moral superiority. And even in subsequent encounters, the Enterprise (and later, Voyager) could put up a fight.

All the Borg have really proven is that they can adapt to and assimilate technologies that are already fairly similar to their own in both design and sophistication. Empire technology is far more powerful, and operates on completely different kinds of physics (hypermatter based, just as a start). There's really not much reason to believe the Borg could adapt to/assimilate such advanced technologies at all, let alone quickly enough to sway things in their favor. The Borg could barely even handle the Voyager when it was retrofitted with future tech from just a few decades ahead of time. The Empire is going to be one-shotting cubes left and right before they can do much of anything, and the effectiveness of Borg raiding parties is highly questionable, not only for the above reasons, but because there is no indication that Borg drones can adapt to anything besides frequency based energy weapons, and I do not believe blasters have that dependency. Not only that, but Stormtroopers are better trained in HtH than redshirts, and are obviously better armored, and Borg drones are slow, clumsy, and can be easily disabled by pulling any wire out of their head. And this is all assuming the Borg can transport through Empire shields (really not sure why they would be able to).

I just don't see the Borg pulling this off.

#14 Posted by weaponx (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: Nicely said. As I said I wasn't sure of the specifics on weapons/shields, but obviously you know more about it. I definitely don't think this will be as easy as people suggest, and if what all you say is true (not saying you are wrong) then it seems the Empire will come out on top. Great points about the Enterprise, Voyager, and Species 8472! Thanks for the info and great input!

P.S. Nice Avatar

#15 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@acer51: Yeah, guess I went a bit off topic <.<

#16 Posted by kadeem (2870 posts) - - Show Bio

@HammerTron: How many Sith and/or force users does the Empire have at its disposal in this scenario?

@Freefa11 said:

@weaponx: Firepower is overwhelmingly in favor of the Empire. I believe that Stardestroyer heavy turbolasers are ranked in the 200 gigaton range, whereas standard photon torpedos have a max yield of 64 megatons, making the SDs around 30,000 times more powerful (shot for shot; that's ignoring that as an explosion, at least half the torpedos energy will be spreading out away from its target, instead of going into it). ISD shields, I believe, are typically somewhere in the terraton range (meaning they should be able to absorb 5+ heavy turbolaser shots from another ISD before failing, which isn't even very impressive, relatively speaking, if you think about it).

This topic has come up many, many times over the years. The Borg winning tends to revolve completely around invoking a no-limits fallacy in their favor; they can adapt to some things, therefore they can adapt to ANYTHING; they can assimilate some things, therefore they can assimilate ANYTHING.

The problem is not only is that inherently illogical (hence, why it is called a fallacy), but even within Trek, it doesn't really hold. The Borg were virtually crushed by Species 8472, proving they are hardly invincible. Even in their first appearance, the Enterprise inflicted severe damage to the Cube and could have almost certainly destroyed it if Picard had not been so concerned with proving his moral superiority. And even in subsequent encounters, the Enterprise (and later, Voyager) could put up a fight.

All the Borg have really proven is that they can adapt to and assimilate technologies that are already fairly similar to their own in both design and sophistication. Empire technology is far more powerful, and operates on completely different kinds of physics (hypermatter based, just as a start). There's really not much reason to believe the Borg could adapt to/assimilate such advanced technologies at all, let alone quickly enough to sway things in their favor. The Borg could barely even handle the Voyager when it was retrofitted with future tech from just a few decades ahead of time. The Empire is going to be one-shotting cubes left and right before they can do much of anything, and the effectiveness of Borg raiding parties is highly questionable, not only for the above reasons, but because there is no indication that Borg drones can adapt to anything besides frequency based energy weapons, and I do not believe blasters have that dependency. Not only that, but Stormtroopers are better trained in HtH than redshirts, and are obviously better armored, and Borg drones are slow, clumsy, and can be easily disabled by pulling any wire out of their head. And this is all assuming the Borg can transport through Empire shields (really not sure why they would be able to).

I just don't see the Borg pulling this off.

The Borg have not only demonstrated that they are capable of assimilating foreign technologies, but also that they can assimilate foreign knowledge/skill sets into their collective by assimilating actual persons. Even if we assume the premiss that the Borg can't assimilate The Empire's tech because it is based on fields of science that they haven't discovered yet, the Borg could simply abduct scientist and engineers that do have this knowledge, and assimilate them into the Borg collective to gain their knowledge.

#17 Posted by WillPayton (9476 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

@weaponx: Firepower is overwhelmingly in favor of the Empire. I believe that Stardestroyer heavy turbolasers are ranked in the 200 gigaton range, whereas standard photon torpedos have a max yield of 64 megatons, making the SDs around 30,000 times more powerful (shot for shot; that's ignoring that as an explosion, at least half the torpedos energy will be spreading out away from its target, instead of going into it). ISD shields, I believe, are typically somewhere in the terraton range (meaning they should be able to absorb 5+ heavy turbolaser shots from another ISD before failing, which isn't even very impressive, relatively speaking, if you think about it).

Regardless of the power output, if the Empire is using lasers as their weapons, then they will have ZERO impact on the Borg. This is because the Borg have the same type of shields that the Feds have, and it's been stated even in TOS that their shields have no problem deflecting lasers.

So the Borg will have much more advanced weapons, the ability to assimilate and adapt to technology, and beaming technology. So unless it can be shown that the Empires shields can block beaming, then the Borg can simply transport photon torpedos inside their ships and blow them up

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#18 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11: The main issue I see with your argument is using assimilating 8472 as an example against a resistant species when we are talking about possible advanced or foreign technology. The issue with 8472 was their biological nature not their tech. 7-of-9's nano-probs had no issue assimilating the doctors portable Holo-emitter and that was futuristic tech and the process occurred by accident. The other issue I see is that you're using future Voyager technology as an example when it was specifically adopted, or at least utilized by the future version of the captain, to combat the Borg (the captain even acknowledge that the Borg would eventually adopt). The point being, there is no reason to assume the Empire would have tech that would be hard for the Borg to adopt to when they have not faced such a species.

I do agree with you on the shielding, it may, or may not, naturally block the transporter transmissions. So its better to air on the side of caution, when thinking of a strategy.

@WillPayton:

I agree with the shielding adopting if they are energy based attacks: even if ships are destroyed, the others will adopt. I do think they will take some loses at the start though. This Battle is not really how the Borg fight.

#19 Posted by cliffrice (1015 posts) - - Show Bio

well from a personal weapons perspective ST seems to have the upper-hand with its handhelds disintegrating targets. Only one reference to hand held disintegrating people is thermal detonators a vaders comment to bobafett "No disintegration" which is in reference to Fetts Disruptor. Though researching both phasers and blasters the descriptions make it seem like they are the same technology. It would appear though that phasers are more destructive in general as all of them have a disintegrate setting while only certain rare weapons in Starwars have that capability. So assuming the borg have assimilated/developed better weaponry than the normal federation standard its safe to say if the battle becomes a matter of boarding parties engaging each-other than the Borg have the advantage.

Excluding Capitol ships the startrek weapons are more powerful. Quantum torpedoes can damage (though not outright destroy) Neutronium, which is an otherwise indestructible metal forged in the cooling heart of a collapsed neutron star. These weapons proved infective against the Borg Cube in Startrek First contact. The most destructive weapon in SW is the Sun crusher which desalinizes stars. kind of useless if the enemy is near a star. so we can probably default to the deathstar super laser is probably the most powerful ship to ship weapon. a 4% powerd blast can destroy a capitol ship in one shot. But there aren't many of those and the methods of transporting them are hellishly slow.

Hyperspace is much faster than warp speed. a 5000 light year journey in star trek takes 20 months. While the same journey in Starwars takes 16 hours. I'm figuring trans-warp hubs (assuming there are any in star-wars) is comparable to Hyperspace travel. so even Steven there.

The way the borg fight they would zergrush colonies and asimilate everything on their way to the fleet. Some borg cubes would be lost on the way there but the borg would adapt countermeasures to standard starwars armaments. Not to mention the ability that borg have shown (from time to time) to Transport through sheilds probably spells doom for the empire. Trying to mess with the mind of the borg through their queen might be downright maddening with the mind of the entire collective The only reference i could find to Borg population was in refrence to a borg unicomplex which stated there were "trillions of drones, the populations of Thousands of worlds" Its safe to assume the empire is out numbered as well.

My vote goes to the Borg.

#20 Posted by HammerTron (611 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kadeem: At least the Emperor and Darth Vader. I'd add Count Dooku and Darth Maul and all the other Sith lords that are available, but I don't think there were very many at the height of the Empire's power.

#21 Posted by Jeronimo (699 posts) - - Show Bio

An interesting pic:

Too bad the Death Star is not included...

#22 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

@weaponx: Firepower is overwhelmingly in favor of the Empire. I believe that Stardestroyer heavy turbolasers are ranked in the 200 gigaton range, whereas standard photon torpedos have a max yield of 64 megatons, making the SDs around 30,000 times more powerful (shot for shot; that's ignoring that as an explosion, at least half the torpedos energy will be spreading out away from its target, instead of going into it). ISD shields, I believe, are typically somewhere in the terraton range (meaning they should be able to absorb 5+ heavy turbolaser shots from another ISD before failing, which isn't even very impressive, relatively speaking, if you think about it).

This topic has come up many, many times over the years. The Borg winning tends to revolve completely around invoking a no-limits fallacy in their favor; they can adapt to some things, therefore they can adapt to ANYTHING; they can assimilate some things, therefore they can assimilate ANYTHING.

The problem is not only is that inherently illogical (hence, why it is called a fallacy), but even within Trek, it doesn't really hold. The Borg were virtually crushed by Species 8472, proving they are hardly invincible. Even in their first appearance, the Enterprise inflicted severe damage to the Cube and could have almost certainly destroyed it if Picard had not been so concerned with proving his moral superiority. And even in subsequent encounters, the Enterprise (and later, Voyager) could put up a fight.

All the Borg have really proven is that they can adapt to and assimilate technologies that are already fairly similar to their own in both design and sophistication. Empire technology is far more powerful, and operates on completely different kinds of physics (hypermatter based, just as a start). There's really not much reason to believe the Borg could adapt to/assimilate such advanced technologies at all, let alone quickly enough to sway things in their favor. The Borg could barely even handle the Voyager when it was retrofitted with future tech from just a few decades ahead of time. The Empire is going to be one-shotting cubes left and right before they can do much of anything, and the effectiveness of Borg raiding parties is highly questionable, not only for the above reasons, but because there is no indication that Borg drones can adapt to anything besides frequency based energy weapons, and I do not believe blasters have that dependency. Not only that, but Stormtroopers are better trained in HtH than redshirts, and are obviously better armored, and Borg drones are slow, clumsy, and can be easily disabled by pulling any wire out of their head. And this is all assuming the Borg can transport through Empire shields (really not sure why they would be able to).

I just don't see the Borg pulling this off.

Took the words right out of my mouth. I salute you good sir

#23 Posted by HammerTron (611 posts) - - Show Bio

@ Jeronimo: That's a really nice chart for comparing the sizes of starships. I see a Romulan ship which I think was the same size as the Enterprise from Star Trek:  The Next Generation.  It looks like a regular Star Destroyer is the same size too, but I disagree with that. Thst Borg Cube looks huge. The Borg certainly would give the Empire a good fight.

#24 Edited by Jeronimo (699 posts) - - Show Bio

@HammerTron: Actually, the D'Deridex class Warbird is about 2-3x bigger than the Enterprise D which is a Galaxy class vessel. BTW, Enterprise D is just above and to the right of the Federation starbase. It looks like a speck compared to the Executor.

Here are some more pics:

#25 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

The Borg should take this. If you remember right they can readapt their shields almost instantaneously after being hit by any energy weapon. Not to mention once they assimilating people, they will get full knowledge of the Empire's tactics, weaponry, ships, shields, defenses, weaknesses, races, etc. Depending on who they assimilate into their hive mind.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#26 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

The SWverse Turbolasers are not lasers really. They are directed energy weapons, and are shown to have kinetic force in the gigaton range. Lasers are directed light waves so dense they can burn stuff. The SWtech is quite a bit different, as they more resemble plasma based weaponry than lasers.

Your average Star Destroyer is around 1,600 meters long, and armed to the teeth with turbolasers, ion cannons, and anti starship laser cannons (once again, plasma tech, not an actual laser)

The Empire has tens of thousands of these in it's disposal.

Your average Super Star Destroyer dwarfs a Star Destroyer in both size and armament. They are at least 3,800- 5,000 meters long, and boast easily double the armament of your average Star Destroyer. although they are fewer of these in the Empire's navy, the massive firepower output makes up for decreased numbers. I estimate thousands of these to be in the Imperial Navy.

The Executor class Star Dreadnought was Darth Vader's personal flagship, and among the Empire's most potent space combat ships. Even more massive than a Super Star Destroyer, the Executor class Star Dreadnought measures 19 kilometers long, and are armed with the following space combat weapons

2,000 Turbolaser cannons, fire linked in groups of 8

2,000 Heavy Turbolaser cannons, fire linked in groups of 8

250 Assault concussion missile tubes, 30 missiles to each tube

250 Heavy Ion Cannons

40 Tractor Beam Projectors

500 Point Defense Laser cannons

The Star Dreadnought could carry thousands of TIE fighters, 30 AT-AT walkers, 40 AT-ST, 2 Prefabricated Garrison Bases, 200 other various assault and support craft, and Y-85 Titan Dropships

There are at least 4 of these in the disposal of The Empire, although I imagine the Empire would have more than 4, but no more than 50.

Then you have the Death Star, Death Star II, Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, All of the Emperor's Hands, The Inquisitors, Millions of Imperial Naval Troops, TIE fighters, and several other support and assault spacecraft

For all the craft and personnel at the Empire's disposal, click the link below

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy

The sheer size and potency of the Empire will crush the Borg collective, as they lack the firepower to penetrate the super structure's defenses, and the foresight of Emperor Palpatine, Darth Vader, and other Force sensitives of the Empire will be able to deal with Borg assimilation techniques via purging the technology via Force techniques.

From what I've seen of the Borg drones, they may not even be able to get close enough to stormtroopers or other combat personnel to inject the nanoprobes into their bloodstreams. And, given that SW armor seems to be far superior to ST armor, the Borg tubules may not even penetrate Stormtrooper armor.

The big weapon most of the Borg battles deal with is a no limits fallacy assuming the Borg will be able to assimilate any technology they come across. SW Tech is from a different universe compared to ST tech. The two universes don't even operate on the same physics principles.

#27 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

The big weapon most of the Borg battles deal with is a no limits fallacy assuming the Borg will be able to assimilate any technology they come across. SW Tech is from a different universe compared to ST tech. The two universes don't even operate on the same physics principles.

Unless stated otherwise, you generally assume that in battles involving races from different universes, that the laws of both Universes are applied in a way so that all teams benefit as if they where each battling in their own native universe.

Also, I've seen people throw around the no limits fallacy a lot when arguing about the Borg; while it is certainly a valid point, it in itself, does not rule out the possibility of assimilation being a valid tactic, especially based on the Borg's previous encounters.

#28 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@jojjimbo said:

Vader solos...

; P

#29 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@steelhound56 said:

The big weapon most of the Borg battles deal with is a no limits fallacy assuming the Borg will be able to assimilate any technology they come across. SW Tech is from a different universe compared to ST tech. The two universes don't even operate on the same physics principles.

Unless stated otherwise, you generally assume that in battles involving races from different universes, that the laws of both Universes are applied in a way so that all teams benefit as if they where each battling in their own native universe.

Also, I've seen people throw around the no limits fallacy a lot when arguing about the Borg; while it is certainly a valid point, it in itself, does not rule out the possibility of assimilation being a valid tactic, especially based on the Borg's previous encounters.

Agreed, it just seems a little absurd to me that people think a single Borg cube solos in this thread....

Since we are applying both universes rules into this thread, it might be possible for Executor class Star Dreadnoughts to do a LOT of damage. No ST shielding to my knowledge can withstand a barrage of heavy turbolaser fire whose impact force is up in the gigatons per shot.

Regular Imperial II Star Destroyers are going to be one shotting Borg cubes left and right, and even if they do manage to infiltrate a ship, they still have thousands of stormtroopers and other military personnel to deal with on ONE ship (God help them if they encounter Palpatine, Vader, Boba, Mara Jade, etc.)

The EU does a great job at showing the prowess and skill of stormtroopers. People who think they are cannon fodder need to read some of the EU on the 501st, Vader's personal stormtrooper battalion. Dudes are pretty badass.

And the shielding in the ST universe will be susceptible to turbolasers, as the actual shots have similar damaging properties to superheated plasma rather than lasers.

Disintegration tech is nothing new to the SWverse. Several bounty hunters in the SWverse use disruptor pistols, rifles, etc. to completely disintegrate targets.

#30 Posted by Picard (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

Borg don't just go for an all out war unless they are threatened. They will attack a few lone ships to adopt and assimilate your technology, then go after a planet. A single cube could take on many starships. For large targets, I can see them just transporting troops inside and having them assimilating the ships or the death star from within. If the Borg sent 5 cubes, they could take earth in their universe. I think they don't to test their own evolution.

It depends how badly they want to assimilate you...

@Freefa11: I don't know if these informations are even canon? But regardless: Borg can adapt their shields, cubes can function normally even if 80% of the vessel has been destroyed, they can regenerate themselves, they can beam through shields, they can possess new knowledge by assimilating their enemies... Can Empire do that? No. About Species 8472, nine of their ships could destroy a planet, just like Death Star. Like Han Solo said: it would take a thousand Empire ships to do this same... So, no single 8472 bioship is far more powerful than Imperial Star Destroyer. Also Empire ships were destroyed or crippled by - first Death Star by single X-wing piloted by inexperienced farm boy, second Death Star by old smuggler ship, ISD above Hoth by single blast from ion cannon, Super ISD by single kamikaze fighter... And this should be adversary for the Borg? :)

#31 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56: I agree that Borg cubes are not soloing. The Borg prefer to minimize their loses so they like to give their ships time to adopt. This is why I would not have them go up against the might of the empire without previous exposure.

One thing I'll note is that the Borg are pretty good at infiltrating ships undetected and setting up some sort of base of operations, and normally in a somewhat secure area. Whether or not they keep it is a different story. That's if they can get passed the shielding. If they can adopt to the weapons, it increases their chances of gaining a stronghold in the larger ships, and they only really need a few samples of any tech to properly adjust to their strategy to stand a better chance.

The only real issue I have is if people automatically take away their ability to adopt or adjust, you're pretty much making this 1 sided battle. If this a battle against the Zerg, or Tyranids I would agree against assimilation based on their encounter with 8472. There are technology based races like the Voth that are more advanced than the Borg. I'm certain that if the Voth (hyperthetically) gave them a ship they could assimilate it, but outside of that, the Borg simply would never survive long enough to get a chance to assimilate their tech. I'm just not certain if the Empire is at that level.

Edit: might be wrong about the Voth, it looks like they only had a single ship that could avoid the Borg altogether. I thought they had a home world.

#33 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio

@cliffrice said:

well from a personal weapons perspective ST seems to have the upper-hand with its handhelds disintegrating targets. Only one reference to hand held disintegrating people is thermal detonators a vaders comment to bobafett "No disintegration" which is in reference to Fetts Disruptor. Though researching both phasers and blasters the descriptions make it seem like they are the same technology. It would appear though that phasers are more destructive in general as all of them have a disintegrate setting while only certain rare weapons in Starwars have that capability. So assuming the borg have assimilated/developed better weaponry than the normal federation standard its safe to say if the battle becomes a matter of boarding parties engaging each-other than the Borg have the advantage.

Excluding Capitol ships the startrek weapons are more powerful. Quantum torpedoes can damage (though not outright destroy) Neutronium, which is an otherwise indestructible metal forged in the cooling heart of a collapsed neutron star. These weapons proved infective against the Borg Cube in Startrek First contact. The most destructive weapon in SW is the Sun crusher which desalinizes stars. kind of useless if the enemy is near a star. so we can probably default to the deathstar super laser is probably the most powerful ship to ship weapon. a 4% powerd blast can destroy a capitol ship in one shot. But there aren't many of those and the methods of transporting them are hellishly slow.

Hyperspace is much faster than warp speed. a 5000 light year journey in star trek takes 20 months. While the same journey in Starwars takes 16 hours. I'm figuring trans-warp hubs (assuming there are any in star-wars) is comparable to Hyperspace travel. so even Steven there.

The way the borg fight they would zergrush colonies and asimilate everything on their way to the fleet. Some borg cubes would be lost on the way there but the borg would adapt countermeasures to standard starwars armaments. Not to mention the ability that borg have shown (from time to time) to Transport through sheilds probably spells doom for the empire. Trying to mess with the mind of the borg through their queen might be downright maddening with the mind of the entire collective The only reference i could find to Borg population was in refrence to a borg unicomplex which stated there were "trillions of drones, the populations of Thousands of worlds" Its safe to assume the empire is out numbered as well.

My vote goes to the Borg.

Nice argument, but there are a few errors to consider. First, there are millions of populated worlds in SW and many with populations in the billions. Even if the Empire could only support say .1% of the population into service they still far out number the Borg. Second, The Empire has far more ships of war than the Borg. Their Shields and Weapons are stronger than the Borg (going off the technical specs of both). SW ships travel faster than even the borg through transwarp conduits. Also, Sub-space and Hypersapce are not the same thing - ships in Sub-Space can be attacked by each other; ships in Hyperspace can not (as each ship generates it own domain, that is not detectable to other ships). Due to the Strength of the SW shields, I will say with out a doubt that the Borg will not be able to transport through them. Because of this, the Borg would have to knock down the SW shields before boarding and assimilating - this is not going to happen.

@cliffrice said:

Excluding Capitol ships the startrek weapons are more powerful. Quantum torpedoes can damage (though not outright destroy) Neutronium, which is an otherwise indestructible metal forged in the cooling heart of a collapsed neutron star. These weapons proved infective against the Borg Cube in Startrek First contact. The most destructive weapon in SW is the Sun crusher which desalinizes stars. kind of useless if the enemy is near a star. so we can probably default to the deathstar super laser is probably the most powerful ship to ship weapon. a 4% powerd blast can destroy a capitol ship in one shot. But there aren't many of those and the methods of transporting them are hellishly slow.

Where do you get that Quantum Torpedoes can damage Neutronium? Please cite a reference that can be examined. "desalinizes"? deslination is the process of removing salt from a composition. What the Sun-crusher does is in effect the same thing that Dr. Soran's torpedo does in "Generations", by disrupting the process of fusion - causing it to super nova. And by the way is very useful if the enemy is near a star. The Quantum Torpedoes were very effective in "First Contact", I have no idea where you got the idea from that they were not.

#34 Posted by Picard (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Tevnoba: Do you have any evidence to support claim that Borg can't beam through SW shields? Is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part

#35 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio

EU Sidious solos.

#36 Posted by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

@Tevnoba: Do you have any evidence to support claim that Borg can't beam through SW shields? Is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part

Of course not, there has never been a cross-over to my knowledge. However, based on the power of the SW shield systems, and the inherent limitations of transport technology (that preclude transporting through many solid substances and types of interference) I feel justified in saying that the probability is against the Borg.

#37 Posted by Beerhappy (283 posts) - - Show Bio

Borg.

Their defensive adaptions are quick, so even if a cube is destroyed, other cubes will adapt to the oncoming attacks. If the Borg manage to get onto Empire ships, its over right there. I dont see storm troopers stopping them in time, they will just adapt and turn out the storm troopers. Sith on board will be tough, however they only need to kill or turn one onto a borg, then they have all the information to replicate the midi-chlorian or eradicate it.

#38 Edited by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@Picard said:

@drgnx said:

Borg don't just go for an all out war unless they are threatened. They will attack a few lone ships to adopt and assimilate your technology, then go after a planet. A single cube could take on many starships. For large targets, I can see them just transporting troops inside and having them assimilating the ships or the death star from within. If the Borg sent 5 cubes, they could take earth in their universe. I think they don't to test their own evolution.

It depends how badly they want to assimilate you...

@Freefa11: I don't know if these informations are even canon? But regardless: Borg can adapt their shields, cubes can function normally even if 80% of the vessel has been destroyed, they can regenerate themselves, they can beam through shields, they can possess new knowledge by assimilating their enemies... Can Empire do that? No. About Species 8472, nine of their ships could destroy a planet, just like Death Star. Like Han Solo said: it would take a thousand Empire ships to do this same... So, no single 8472 bioship is far more powerful than Imperial Star Destroyer. Also Empire ships were destroyed or crippled by - first Death Star by single X-wing piloted by inexperienced farm boy, second Death Star by old smuggler ship, ISD above Hoth by single blast from ion cannon, Super ISD by single kamikaze fighter... And this should be adversary for the Borg? :)

Okay... The Han Solo comment can be chalked up to movie script. Lucas was trying to emphasize on the threat the Death Star presented to the Galaxy as a whole.

And yes, the information on the destructive power of turbolasers is canon. More information on them can be found on wookiepedia. In fact, we may actually be underestimating the force behind a heavy turbolaser shot. Some people believe it to be in the teraton range of destructive power.

A standard ISD (Imperial II class) can easily Base Delta Zero a planet. Not destroy it, but ONE can reduce an entire planet's crust to molten slag. Executor class Star Dreadnoughts are over 10 times the size of a standard Star Destroyer, and easily boast more than 100 times the destructive power of one.

Not to mention the Sun Crusher could theoretically be included in the Empire's armament, since it was commissioned by Grand Moff Tarkin. The Sun Crusher had the ability to destroy entire star systems, by causing the system's star to go supernova.

But I digress,

It isn't going to matter if a Cube can regenerate itself if the whole thing is blasted asunder in a few shots (ISD heavy turbolaser batteries are chainlinked to fire 8 at a time). Can a Borg Cube withstand up to a total of 1,600 gigatons of force impacting it in the span of a few seconds?

The answer is no, since standard ST photon torpedoes have a payload of about 64 megatons, and are considered a threat to the Borg. A photon torpedo has 1/30,000th of the impact force of a single ISD heavy turbolaser shot. And thats assuming perfect conditions, ignoring the fact that a photon torpedo explodes, wasting some of its force by expanding outward instead of boring into a target (something a turbolaser burst does do)

Shields can adapt, I'll grant them that. But how in the heck are they going to adapt to something that possesses 240,000 times the power of a single photon torpedo? Assuming that Borg shields can increase their power 240,000 fold to compensate for a single barrage of turbolaser fire from ONE Star Destroyer is kind of absurd.

Ion cannons area very effective weapon to use against eletrical constructs and systems. The fact that the Hoth Ion Cannon disabled a Star Destroyer for a few minutes is a nod to how powerful said cannon was. Star Destroyers are equipped with ion cannons as well, and a few shots from one would likely leave a Cube dead in space.

Your comment on the Death Star is valid, exception of a few points you left out of the argument. Do you realize said farm boy ended up becoming the single most powerful Jedi in Galactic history? And that Luke was an exceptional pilot, with The Force on his side, who exploited a singular weakness in the Death Star's design, something the Borg would know absolutely nothing about?

The kamikaze fighter hit the Super Star Destroyer's bridge, it didnt destroy the entire ship. What do you think is going to happen when a starship slams into the place where the actual operation of the ship is taking place? And the entire thing reeks of PIS on the Empire's side, the plot called for said action to happen, therefore it did.

The Death Star II was an incomplete structure, that allowed Lando and the Millenium Falcon (a ship that is far faster and more manuverable than you are assuming it is) to infiltrate its reactor core and detonate it. As far as the actual fight goes, I'm assuming one of two things are applicable for the Death Star II. Either it is complete, and would have no external weaknesses for the Borg to exploit, or the entire thing is still covered by the shield that enclosed it, the same shield Palpatine purposefully allowed to be disabled in order to draw the Rebels into a trap.

Even if the Borg do infiltrate a Star Destroyer, they still have to deal with the thousands of stormtroopers and other naval personnel garrisoned inside the ship. Fact, Borg drones are extremely slow and clumsy things. Their personal shielding isnt going to help them much when they round a corner and find an entire company of stormtroopers leveling blaster rifles at them, ready to open fire.

You are entitled to your opinion however, but weaponry and shields of The Empire's Star Destroyers are far superior to the Borg Collectives. That, and the sheer numbers and resources available to the Empire dwarf that of the Borg.

Sorry, I just can't see the Borg pulling it out in this fight.

#39 Edited by Tevnoba (3494 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56:

Excellent points, all.

#40 Posted by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

when have stormtroopers proven a problem for any foe? those fodder are not stopping the borg at all.

#41 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@Skaddix said:

when have stormtroopers proven a problem for any foe? those fodder are not stopping the borg at all.

Read some of the EU concerning stormtroopers. The movies are the only source that presents stormtroopers as fodder.

Stormtroopers are highly capable, efficient, lethal fighters in the EU. Sure, they are the footsoldiers of the Empire, but they still undergo rigorous training in Imperial Military Academies.

The Stormtrooper Corps only take the top percentage (5%) of recruits for DNA sampling and cloning. The rest of the percentage do serve as soldiers, but the split between clone and original humans is roughly 50/50 in the Empire. So you have the elite companies of stormtroopers like the 501st, various spec ops companies, and shock troopers. And then you have the inferior, but still highly competent and efficient rank and file soldiers.

Heck, Lord Vader himself had his own personal cadre of stormtroopers. They are called the 501st Legion, you ought to read up on them. They did not have the nickname of Vader's Fist bestowed on them for no good reason.

Stormtrooper companies are plenty capable enough of taking down Borg Drones. They are faster, more efficient, and absolutely ruthless

Long story short, stormtroopers are not the incompetent idiots that the movies would have you believe. The EU does a great job in portraying them as they are meant to be portrayed.

#42 Posted by WillPayton (9476 posts) - - Show Bio

@steelhound56 said:

@Skaddix said:

when have stormtroopers proven a problem for any foe? those fodder are not stopping the borg at all.

Read some of the EU concerning stormtroopers. The movies are the only source that presents stormtroopers as fodder.

Stormtroopers are highly capable, efficient, lethal fighters in the EU. Sure, they are the footsoldiers of the Empire, but they still undergo rigorous training in Imperial Military Academies.

The Stormtrooper Corps only take the top percentage (5%) of recruits for DNA sampling and cloning. The rest of the percentage do serve as soldiers, but the split between clone and original humans is roughly 50/50 in the Empire. So you have the elite companies of stormtroopers like the 501st, various spec ops companies, and shock troopers. And then you have the inferior, but still highly competent and efficient rank and file soldiers.

Heck, Lord Vader himself had his own personal cadre of stormtroopers. They are called the 501st Legion, you ought to read up on them. They did not have the nickname of Vader's Fist bestowed on them for no good reason.

Stormtrooper companies are plenty capable enough of taking down Borg Drones. They are faster, more efficient, and absolutely ruthless

Long story short, stormtroopers are not the incompetent idiots that the movies would have you believe. The EU does a great job in portraying them as they are meant to be portrayed.

All this shows is that the Stormtroopers in the movies and the books are two completely different versions. Since the movies are the original source material and what most people are familiar with, it seems reasonable that that's the version to be used here.

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#43 Posted by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

not ot mention no army is going to be super competent from top down. 501 is like your Navy Seal equivalents.

besides borgs will adapt to the lasers and i am pretty sure that unlike in star trek u cannot rapidly change the frequency to counter that in star wars.

#44 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@WillPayton said:

@steelhound56 said:

@Skaddix said:

when have stormtroopers proven a problem for any foe? those fodder are not stopping the borg at all.

Read some of the EU concerning stormtroopers. The movies are the only source that presents stormtroopers as fodder.

Stormtroopers are highly capable, efficient, lethal fighters in the EU. Sure, they are the footsoldiers of the Empire, but they still undergo rigorous training in Imperial Military Academies.

The Stormtrooper Corps only take the top percentage (5%) of recruits for DNA sampling and cloning. The rest of the percentage do serve as soldiers, but the split between clone and original humans is roughly 50/50 in the Empire. So you have the elite companies of stormtroopers like the 501st, various spec ops companies, and shock troopers. And then you have the inferior, but still highly competent and efficient rank and file soldiers.

Heck, Lord Vader himself had his own personal cadre of stormtroopers. They are called the 501st Legion, you ought to read up on them. They did not have the nickname of Vader's Fist bestowed on them for no good reason.

Stormtrooper companies are plenty capable enough of taking down Borg Drones. They are faster, more efficient, and absolutely ruthless

Long story short, stormtroopers are not the incompetent idiots that the movies would have you believe. The EU does a great job in portraying them as they are meant to be portrayed.

All this shows is that the Stormtroopers in the movies and the books are two completely different versions. Since the movies are the original source material and what most people are familiar with, it seems reasonable that that's the version to be used here.

You can't disregard the more numerous feats because you aren't familiar with them. The EU is canon, so feats from the EU count. 
 
It's like saying that since most people have only seen the new Star Trek movie, the one that doesn't have Borg, the Borg will lose because they have no feats in it.
#45 Posted by WillPayton (9476 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

You can't disregard the more numerous feats because you aren't familiar with them. The EU is canon, so feats from the EU count. It's like saying that since most people have only seen the new Star Trek movie, the one that doesn't have Borg, the Borg will lose because they have no feats in it.

No, I'm saying that the two versions contradict each other, and the movies are the authoritative source.

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#46 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio
@WillPayton said:

@Ferro Vida said:

You can't disregard the more numerous feats because you aren't familiar with them. The EU is canon, so feats from the EU count. It's like saying that since most people have only seen the new Star Trek movie, the one that doesn't have Borg, the Borg will lose because they have no feats in it.

No, I'm saying that the two versions contradict each other, and the movies are the authoritative source.

Says the person who knows nothing about the expanded universe. 
 
The two sources aren't contradictory. The official reason for why the Storm Troopers were such bad shots was that the aiming crystals on a whole shipment of weapons were defective. Obi Wan even commented on their lethal accuracy when Luke found the corpses of his Aunt and Uncle, and in the opening scene in Episode 4 the STs cut through the rebel forces easily. And in the prequels the Clone Troopers are all shown to be highly efficient fighters, despite being outnumbered and out-gunned on almost every occasion.
#47 Edited by Picard (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Tevnoba said:

@Picard said:

@Tevnoba: Do you have any evidence to support claim that Borg can't beam through SW shields? Is pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part

Of course not, there has never been a cross-over to my knowledge. However, based on the power of the SW shield systems, and the inherent limitations of transport technology (that preclude transporting through many solid substances and types of interference) I feel justified in saying that the probability is against the Borg.

What I mean is that: what evidence you have to support a claim that strengh of shields have anything to do with stoping Borg beaming technology?

@steelhound56 said:

@Picard said:

@drgnx said:

Borg don't just go for an all out war unless they are threatened. They will attack a few lone ships to adopt and assimilate your technology, then go after a planet. A single cube could take on many starships. For large targets, I can see them just transporting troops inside and having them assimilating the ships or the death star from within. If the Borg sent 5 cubes, they could take earth in their universe. I think they don't to test their own evolution.

It depends how badly they want to assimilate you...

@Freefa11: I don't know if these informations are even canon? But regardless: Borg can adapt their shields, cubes can function normally even if 80% of the vessel has been destroyed, they can regenerate themselves, they can beam through shields, they can possess new knowledge by assimilating their enemies... Can Empire do that? No. About Species 8472, nine of their ships could destroy a planet, just like Death Star. Like Han Solo said: it would take a thousand Empire ships to do this same... So, no single 8472 bioship is far more powerful than Imperial Star Destroyer. Also Empire ships were destroyed or crippled by - first Death Star by single X-wing piloted by inexperienced farm boy, second Death Star by old smuggler ship, ISD above Hoth by single blast from ion cannon, Super ISD by single kamikaze fighter... And this should be adversary for the Borg? :)

Okay... The Han Solo comment can be chalked up to movie script. Lucas was trying to emphasize on the threat the Death Star presented to the Galaxy as a whole.

And yes, the information on the destructive power of turbolasers is canon. More information on them can be found on wookiepedia. In fact, we may actually be underestimating the force behind a heavy turbolaser shot. Some people believe it to be in the teraton range of destructive power.

A standard ISD (Imperial II class) can easily Base Delta Zero a planet. Not destroy it, but ONE can reduce an entire planet's crust to molten slag. Executor class Star Dreadnoughts are over 10 times the size of a standard Star Destroyer, and easily boast more than 100 times the destructive power of one.

Not to mention the Sun Crusher could theoretically be included in the Empire's armament, since it was commissioned by Grand Moff Tarkin. The Sun Crusher had the ability to destroy entire star systems, by causing the system's star to go supernova.

But I digress,

It isn't going to matter if a Cube can regenerate itself if the whole thing is blasted asunder in a few shots (ISD heavy turbolaser batteries are chainlinked to fire 8 at a time). Can a Borg Cube withstand up to a total of 1,600 gigatons of force impacting it in the span of a few seconds?

The answer is no, since standard ST photon torpedoes have a payload of about 64 megatons, and are considered a threat to the Borg. A photon torpedo has 1/30,000th of the impact force of a single ISD heavy turbolaser shot. And thats assuming perfect conditions, ignoring the fact that a photon torpedo explodes, wasting some of its force by expanding outward instead of boring into a target (something a turbolaser burst does do)

Shields can adapt, I'll grant them that. But how in the heck are they going to adapt to something that possesses 240,000 times the power of a single photon torpedo? Assuming that Borg shields can increase their power 240,000 fold to compensate for a single barrage of turbolaser fire from ONE Star Destroyer is kind of absurd.

Ion cannons area very effective weapon to use against eletrical constructs and systems. The fact that the Hoth Ion Cannon disabled a Star Destroyer for a few minutes is a nod to how powerful said cannon was. Star Destroyers are equipped with ion cannons as well, and a few shots from one would likely leave a Cube dead in space.

Your comment on the Death Star is valid, exception of a few points you left out of the argument. Do you realize said farm boy ended up becoming the single most powerful Jedi in Galactic history? And that Luke was an exceptional pilot, with The Force on his side, who exploited a singular weakness in the Death Star's design, something the Borg would know absolutely nothing about?

The kamikaze fighter hit the Super Star Destroyer's bridge, it didnt destroy the entire ship. What do you think is going to happen when a starship slams into the place where the actual operation of the ship is taking place? And the entire thing reeks of PIS on the Empire's side, the plot called for said action to happen, therefore it did.

The Death Star II was an incomplete structure, that allowed Lando and the Millenium Falcon (a ship that is far faster and more manuverable than you are assuming it is) to infiltrate its reactor core and detonate it. As far as the actual fight goes, I'm assuming one of two things are applicable for the Death Star II. Either it is complete, and would have no external weaknesses for the Borg to exploit, or the entire thing is still covered by the shield that enclosed it, the same shield Palpatine purposefully allowed to be disable in order to draw the Rebels into a trap.

Even if the Borg do infiltrate a Star Destroyer, they still have to deal with the thousands of stormtroopers and other naval personnel garrisoned inside the ship. Fact, Borg drones are extremely slow and clumsy things. Their personal shielding isnt going to help them much when they round a corner and find an entire company of stormtroopers leveling blaster rifles at them, ready to open fire.

You are entitled to your opinion however, but weaponry and shields of The Empire's Star Destroyers are far superior to the Borg Collectives. That, and the sheer numbers and resources available to the Empire dwarf that of the Borg.

Sorry, I just can't see the Borg pulling it out in this fight.

You know what's more canonical that information form some technical manuals or wiki peages? Infromations from the movie, and like I said it was clearly stated that only thousand ships cauld destroy the planet. It's a fact. About turbolasers power, watch any Star Wars movie and show me destructive potential of turbolaser - old smuggler ship like Millenium Falcon shrugged off few shoots from ISD turbolasers before loosing aft shields and escaping without a problem, ISD turbolasers can't destroy asteroids during pursuit after Millenium Falcon - in fact Empire lost at least one ship in this asteroid field and other sustain heavy damage, it's seems that turbolasers and shields wasn't that helpful as you led me to believe, in "Revange of sith" single shoot from turbolaser was only able to destroy one enemy turret... and so on. Were are those massive explosions? Hmmm? And again: Borg can adapt their shields, Borg cube can function normally even if 80% of the vessel has been destroyed, Borg can regenerate their ships. Empire can't do that. One thing you have is some numbers taken form EU Star Wars, that have no confirmation in the movies, quite the contrary, some facts from movies contradicts them. Regardless, can Borg withstand 1,600 gigatons? I don't know, and you know what? You also don't know that, so stop acting like you you are certain that they can't :) What I know is that - again, Borg can adapt, regenerate, beam through the shields, they can assimilate and their ships can function normally with 80% demage. About Luke vs. death star - who Luke become is unimportant, he didn't used the Force to destroy Death Star, Force only helped him to hit his target. What's important is that, all it takes to destroy Empire's most powerful and ominous weapon was a single boy in single X-wing... Empire might, indeed. ;) How Borg would know about Death Star weakness? They can simply scan the surface or assimilate someone who knows Death Star plans. Rebels didn't known plans of second Death Star yet they destroyed it. And they used old smuggler ship to do this. Again Empire might... ;) About Super ISD, yes I know that kamikaze fighter didn't destroyed entire ship but it destroyed the command center, and that was enough. Borg can just beam out everyone from the enemy bridge and ship will be practically defenceless... And what about Ewoks - caveman bears - ambushing entire legion of Emperor's best troops and destroying AT-ST walkers by using primitive traps made aout off wood? Yes I see Borg shaking in their boots at the mere mention of Empire. Stormtroopers... they can't handle rebels and even Ewoks can give them run for their money but cybernetic drones with superhuman strength and personal shields is no problem for them? Please! Fact is that Borg assimilated many cosmic civilisations and Empire never faced against adversary like the Borg. They couldn't handle Rebels, yet they stop the Borg? Please!

#48 Posted by steelhound56 (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: EU versions are just as valid as the movie counterparts. The Prequel Trilogy didnt do a whole lot right, but they got the idea about Clone Troopers. They are portrayed as highly competent, efficient soldiers. Guess what the initial ranks of Stormtroopers consisted of? Thats, right. Clone Troopers.

@Skaddix: Blasters are not laser weapons. They do not operate on any frequency. Blasters come in two different forms. One fires a super hot, high energy particle beam called a blaster bolt. Not a laser, a particle beam. Two completely different things. Particle beams do not operate on frequency ranges, they operate by impacting and disrupting matter on an atomic level. The most common blaster of this type is the E-11 Blaster Rifle.

The second type of blaster is the plasma type blaster. The most common plasma based blaster was the DC-15 Blaster Rifle. These blasters operated by firing a highly condensed pocket of superheated (thousands upon thousands of degrees) gas called a plasma bolt. These bolts operated by impacting and burning through targets.

#49 Posted by Ferro Vida (34678 posts) - - Show Bio

But yeah, the Borg win because the ST universe is just technologically ahead of the SWs universe. By like, a lot.

#50 Posted by Picard (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferro Vida said:

@WillPayton said:

@Ferro Vida said:

You can't disregard the more numerous feats because you aren't familiar with them. The EU is canon, so feats from the EU count. It's like saying that since most people have only seen the new Star Trek movie, the one that doesn't have Borg, the Borg will lose because they have no feats in it.

No, I'm saying that the two versions contradict each other, and the movies are the authoritative source.

Says the person who knows nothing about the expanded universe. The two sources aren't contradictory. The official reason for why the Storm Troopers were such bad shots was that the aiming crystals on a whole shipment of weapons were defective. Obi Wan even commented on their lethal accuracy when Luke found the corpses of his Aunt and Uncle, and in the opening scene in Episode 4 the STs cut through the rebel forces easily. And in the prequels the Clone Troopers are all shown to be highly efficient fighters, despite being outnumbered and out-gunned on almost every occasion.

Oooo, there are plenty of contradictions between EU and the movies... Look only at Jedi in Tarkovsky's Clone wars... completely different