#1 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio

cyttorak vs chthon vs set vs shuma gorath vs dormammu. ALL are in a interconnected realm.  So they are all at their most powerfullest.

#2 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3895 posts) - - Show Bio

Then no one wins because in their respective realms they are omnipotent. It's why fights on the vine like TOAA vs The Presence or PR Beyonder vs HOTU...

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#3 Posted by The Lone Wanderer (1448 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma Gorath stomps as his peak. The others would have problems with Galactus out of their realms. Classic Shuma would roflstomp Galactus.

#4 Edited by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do people believe Shuma Gorath is that powerful?? I dont seem to recall anything impressive from him at all, not to mention most of his recent appearances in say Invaders Now, Fantastic Four, Journey Into the Mystery has all been sub-par. Dr. Strange even beat him in his realm in second volume, and beat him on earth in vol 1 where Gorath was tapping into Ancient Ones Ego (LOL) and his ego had to be destroyed. Then we have Gorath losing against Seis Neg before the former acended to being powerful enough to re-created a universal big bang.

Would anyone be kind enough to point me any high end feats from Shuma Gorath, apart from hyperboles like Demon who sleep but shall awake and threaten all of existence which simply because of liberal use of "all" gets interpreted at somehow making him an omniversal being.

Also while i am at it, while Gorath did claim to have beaten Eternity, similar claims have been made by Zom as well, neither of which have been shown on panel. While Zom at least have some sort of ABC feat to well at least, using a fault and extremely liberal view to grant such feat, I certainly dont remember Gorath ever having done anything to warrant it.

I am familiar with Dormammu, but the other i haven't read enough to comment (well apart form 2 appearences i have read nothing on Chthon nor Set). So not sure who wins, but would anyone be kind enough to give a justification on why Gorath get so massively over-estimated here?

#5 Posted by Prince_RehteStroC (137 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma-Gorath would win this.

#6 Edited by Melab (32 posts) - - Show Bio

It's in the presentation, Killemall. He rarely shows up, characters begin to sound very dire when he is around, and a load of Lovecraftian jargon is used to describe him.

#7 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

Why do people believe Shuma Gorath is that powerful?? I dont seem to recall anything impressive from him at all, not to mention most of his recent appearances in say Invaders Now, Fantastic Four, Journey Into the Mystery has all been sub-par. Dr. Strange even beat him in his realm in second volume, and beat him on earth in vol 1 where Gorath was tapping into Ancient Ones Ego (LOL) and his ego had to be destroyed. Then we have Gorath losing against Seis Neg before the former acended to being powerful enough to re-created a universal big bang.

Would anyone be kind enough to point me any high end feats from Shuma Gorath, apart from hyperboles like Demon who sleep but shall awake and threaten all of existence which simply because of liberal use of "all" gets interpreted at somehow making him an omniversal being.

Also while i am at it, while Gorath did claim to have beaten Eternity, similar claims have been made by Zom as well, neither of which have been shown on panel. While Zom at least have some sort of ABC feat to well at least, using a fault and extremely liberal view to grant such feat, I certainly dont remember Gorath ever having done anything to warrant it.

I am familiar with Dormammu, but the other i haven't read enough to comment (well apart form 2 appearences i have read nothing on Chthon nor Set). So not sure who wins, but would anyone be kind enough to give a justification on why Gorath get so massively over-estimated here?

I don't feel like an expert about SG, but:
1.Sise-Neg pretty much created multversum. Yet, he still couldn't kill SG, just banish him. I don't think that if these people/demons come to fight, they are limited to versions that just had avatars in normal realm. This hardly give his opponents any real way for win, since SG won't be one who was present in Invaders or even in Canncerverse.
2.SG can't be killed. Strange defeated him and... was possesed by his consciousness. And it wasn't like normal Strange vs. SG, but Strange with pwoer of 3 or 4 different powerfull magic beings.  And then just by mere presence, Strange was going to destroy whole galaxies. For me this alone, puts him above Galactus.
3.He was powerfull enough to grant Lord Mar-Vell a power thas was great enough to take out an Abstract level being. Of course, someone can say that there were 4 gods, not only Shuma, but it still gives him a place in Abstract level.
#8 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7043 posts) - - Show Bio

Cytorrak, Chthon, and Set are featless. It's really a battle between Dormammu and Shuma Gorath.

#9 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Cytorrak, Chthon, and Set are featless. It's really a battle between Dormammu and Shuma Gorath.

That isn't truth actually...
#10 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7043 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: What do you mean? Cytorrak is a walking hyperbole who hasn't done anything. Chthon's feats come from his Darkhold and Set's feats come from his serpent crown. There aren't more than a handful of stories actually pertaining to Chton, Set, or Cytorrak, and even less so with them doing anything.

#11 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio
@Killemall said:

Why do people believe Shuma Gorath is that powerful?? I dont seem to recall anything impressive from him at all, not to mention most of his recent appearances in say Invaders Now, Fantastic Four, Journey Into the Mystery has all been sub-par. Dr. Strange even beat him in his realm in second volume, and beat him on earth in vol 1 where Gorath was tapping into Ancient Ones Ego (LOL) and his ego had to be destroyed. Then we have Gorath losing against Seis Neg before the former acended to being powerful enough to re-created a universal big bang.

Would anyone be kind enough to point me any high end feats from Shuma Gorath, apart from hyperboles like Demon who sleep but shall awake and threaten all of existence which simply because of liberal use of "all" gets interpreted at somehow making him an omniversal being.

Also while i am at it, while Gorath did claim to have beaten Eternity, similar claims have been made by Zom as well, neither of which have been shown on panel. While Zom at least have some sort of ABC feat to well at least, using a fault and extremely liberal view to grant such feat, I certainly dont remember Gorath ever having done anything to warrant it.

I am familiar with Dormammu, but the other i haven't read enough to comment (well apart form 2 appearences i have read nothing on Chthon nor Set). So not sure who wins, but would anyone be kind enough to give a justification on why Gorath get so massively over-estimated here?

Shuma-Gorath is more powerful than Chthon, but less powerful than Cyttorak. 
#12 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@czarny_samael666: What do you mean? Cytorrak is a walking hyperbole who hasn't done anything. Chthon's feats come from his Darkhold and Set's feats come from his serpent crown. There aren't more than a handful of stories actually pertaining to Chton, Set, or Cytorrak, and even less so with them doing anything.

  
  This was written by Lance Bastro regarding Cyttorak, Chthon/Set & Shuma Gorath.





@lord_oraculous016:

ooh loooord... ora-cu-lous!!

you are twisting up the facts and it is apparently ridiculous!

don't you knooow. that chthon is just a shoow... while cyttorak shows less, becuase he's practically unlimited. 

ok i know...that was lame....

anyway into the topic....

@lord_oraculous016: said:

@Lance Bastro: ...

are you contradicting yourself when you speak of "publications" and then mentioning the word "non-canon" in almost every one of your arguments? you see, the reason why i never use the term "non-canon" in my arguments is because of publications. i told you this before under the science of quantum realities which i know you believe as well since you mentioned about the chaos wave effecting parallel times of multiple universes. that everything that is considered non canon is actually cannon in the continuity due to quantum realities. the mystic arcana is just one of them, and the writers are fans of the magical side of what the originals created so therefore a fan-fiction of its own cause. all of the new stories written by new generation writers were or still are at one point of their life a fan of the original concept. for example, if i wrote a series about juggernaut regaining his powers as the trion and then making him reality warp space and manipulating time, that is staying true to the original concept of how the creator intended the origin of juggernaut's power to be. however, if i wrote something where juggernaut gets his head torn off by thanos with the infinity gauntlet while juggernaut is at full power, that right there is the part that IS NOT TRUE to the original concept of the character. do you understand where i'm getting at? eventhough mystic arcana is fan based... it had still been published, so therefore canon... however, now it's up to the readers to choose which cannon takes more credibility? the original concept or the fan-based material...

lol.. i don't contradict myself my good man.. any knowledgeable comic book reader knows the difference between a Canon and a Non-Canon Issue.. Storylines that is included in the main streamline of the Marvel publication are considered to be canon while stories such as What If's are considered Non-Canon.. Mystic Arcana is a Canon publication.. i why it funny how you consider it Non-Canon while Marvel itself considers it as Canon.. it's basically your word vs Marvel's.. ret-cons are natural in canon storylines.. it doesn't mean that a character's history has been changed it mean it is Non-Canon.. based on your claims, it makes me realize that you don't know much of the things you are talking about.. Mystic Arcana is FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES CANON.. IT IS AS CANON AS SECRET WARS, THE INFINITY SAGA, DARK PHOENIX SAGA, AVENGERS, X-MEN ETC..

oh but you do contradict your self and i will soon show you this.

@lord_oraculous016: said:

lol.. it is you my good man who can not prove anything and is basically repeating yourself over and over again.. Chthon would devour Cyttorak based on on panel feats which is far more superior than any of Cyttorak's and based on semantics..
feats? you want feats.. okay, i'll list them done just for you.. lol

if i may inquire how these "on panel" feats you claim are superior by what means? physical feats? feats based on a physical basis reality? is that all you care about it? well it is quite apparent that's what everybody likes to believe, right. just the little things that the naked eye can see should really be enough to determine a decision regardless the bigger things unseen, correct?

well let me explain something to you. and i told you this many times before.

a reality is what? what is a reality?

is reality to you something that you can see, touch, hear, smell and speak to?

is reality something you believe that can feel emotion and define and translate abstract thoughts into a physical action?

if that's the case, reality is nothing more than just electrical signals being interpret by your brain.

well, unfortunately; reality is just one aspect of existence as a whole.

reality can also be the unseen, the untouched, the unheard, the unscented , and the unspoken.

reality can indirectly be probability...

and it can be possibility...

but it needs help by another aspect called time which time needs another aspect called space.

space and time create a reality. where space can be manipulated from vacuum particles into matter, and time the force that moves it.

matter is the physical side of reality.... these are the areas in which eternity and infinity represent. (time and space)

while there are other forces that are abstract to be concrete that matter can not translate too... mind and soul...

sensuousness (ego)... each one of them are a representation of (power) in their own respect.

ok, now that that's been explained. have you not ever wondered what the chaos wave effected?

I got the answer. It effected the reality (space & time) of selected perspectives....

billions? perhaps, but billions of perspectives is not an omniverse let alone even a universe of souls.

you see,

that's what the reality gem is for. and the reality gem > any chain reaction of events through probabilities.

now before continuing on reading. play this.

turn the volume up just enough so that you can walk around the house and hear it.

grab yourself some coffee and make a pancake and then come back to the computer because this post will take quite awhile of your time.

as you've heard.

our reality is up to the 5th dimension.

i will explain about dimensions in another section of this post and define the two different terms we all mix them up with. now continuing on...

in your scans, you mentioned (even by other arguments you've had) that chthon's power was like a cancer inside eternity.

ok?

do you know how cancer works? oh well, yes of course you do... so allow me to remind the others reading this that cancer starts out by one mutated cell that spreads to others slowly. This was the way that the chaos waved worked through eternity, and was the reason why the chaos wave cancer was stopped by a little bit of good prep time.

now... compare it to this:

Thanos = Reality Gem

you see? you have either forgotten or blatantly intended to omit and trick your readers to believe all the factual scans you posted stayed factual to the cause of the arcs you are using as a source to back up your claims. But I don't mind, because that's what a debate is all about right? however.... i can see through that deception and it's up to people like me, who are intelligent enough to see passed these dark curtains and expose it.

and just for the record: debates are not about who's right and who's wrong....

a debate is about who can persuade who, and obviously you've gained a good amount of that credibility due to your rhetorics, but its time to take that all away because this time, i'm not debating with you; this time i am exposing the truth...

so what about thanos and the reality gem?

well, if you didn't know by now, he used it to blink half of the MU just to prove a point. literally blinked everything faster than a spoken word. No wave, no time... Just gone. and he could have taken the entire MU save for the extra-dimension if not for him just wanting to be acknowledge. do you know who else was in the arc? well you guessed it, buddy.

cyttorak...

do you want to know why cyttorak wasn't affected? (when scarlet witch was along with her potential and chthon's power behind her...)

well if you re-read what i wrote about space, time and reality several lines up, you will see...

aside that her consciousness is no where near the level of cyttorak, nor chthon -to add for that matter.

cyttorak is a timeless abstracted void..... he is defined to defy the laws of reality so therefore it does not effect him.

cyttorak effects reality; not the other way around....

how & why?

just keep reading...

now, i will go through each and everyone of your "proof" scans, and dissect, decipher, untwist and expose the contradictions you created upon yourself. and after that, i will post a few of the scans of my own that tell the whole story as to why cyttorak beats the ethereal crap out of chthon and all of the elder gods INCLUDING the cyttorak impostor, demogorge. AND that void impostor mikaboshi as well as thanos with the infinity gauntlet, and possibility the living tribunal too...

1st let's bounce into capitol punishments' statement about why i commentate scans.

@CapitolPunishment said:

@Lance Bastro:

Why are you adding your own captions to the scans?

scans can be taken out of context. and then once it is passed through the band wagon through one misinterpretation, people take for granted that and don't ever re-read the contents of the scan anymore. therefore, i will go out of my way, to allow them the time to re-read the contents by placing the original scan followed by the one i commentate. this will allow the reader to re-organize their thoughts closer to the truth of how the writer intended the story to be read.

so when i add the original scans (with all contents) and the context translations next to it; the context still stays the same whether or not the captions are there.

@lord_oraculous016: said

first by rule of semantics, Elder Gods thumps any lesser divinities both malevolent and benevolent..

now i remember we had a debate about this perhaps over a year ago when i mentioned that if cyttorak were by any chance relatively related to the elder gods, he would be considered a grand elder god, which you replied, "grand elder god? i never heard of it like that before." well... as we can all see, demiurge pretty much fits that description him being the father of the elder gods and incarnation of creation itself... well, back then, i was trying fill in the gap by pin pointing the opposite side of deiurge and found no other else, but cyttorak as the incarnation of destruction.

but something felt odd, if i placed cyttorak as that incarnation of destruction, that would make him tangible to something acceptable to a reality we can perceive and comprehend. so cyttorak had to have been something more out of that world --- the world of ideas.

a symbol of the defiance of both destruction and creation rather than the actions itself. cyttorak is known as an endless & timeless void which the ancient one describes as the lord of that timeless void, and he is metaphorically described to be the master of the raging storm symbolism chaos. if you throw this metaphoric idea into the laws of reality you get the chaotic void that defies existence itself. cyttorak is such an idea. it is that very concept mixed by it's own laws to it's own existence unlike the elder gods who serve only one purpose of an action to its own existence within a physical and time moving reality.

  • demiurge = incarnation of creation (to build)
  • gaea = the nourisher of nature (to feed)
  • set = the destroyer of nature (to crush)
  • chthon = the corrupter of light (to corrupt)
  • oshtur = the enlightenment (to enlight)

those are all verbs.... and to be precise; action verbs... these are what they do to exist in the reality they so call live in.

demogorge also has his own purpose as the one who devours (to eat). and the list is passed as the smaller gods are spawned... (aka godlings)

in addition: it was a pity that chthon only obsessed over the dark arts where cyttorak's exocentric crimson magic exceeds over both black and white magics altogether.

it was said that the elder gods were to be replaced one day (by the godlings they've spawned through magic) which was also relevant to the purpose of the celestials & abstracts being replaced one day (by the omegas beings created by science).

Key: "Yet we were to be deposed by newer gods..."

Key: "Your fragile species will replace them and remake the structure of reality..."

but wait! they tell cain marko of all people that he is one to replace them too...

of course acknowledging cain through his humanity side rather than the monstrous juggernaut persona.

however, in all contrary to that statement, "replace the fundamental forces so that one day you can remake reality." --- cain can already do just that as the juggernaut with a fraction of the fraction 1/8 of just the the physical aspect of cyttorak by itself.

and with the theory of the maximum capacity of the gem (1/8 of the physical aspect of cyttorak's entire essence), juggernaut demonstrated to reshape realities and cause multiversal catastrophe just by mindlessly waving his arms and walking forward. each step, making him even more powerful, and each punch destroying a reality.

how is that so?

since we are living within and INSIDE a universe, we perceive it in our perspective as 3rd dimensional (but it is actually up to the 5th)...but if you look at it from a bird's eye view; aka, an extra-dimensional perspective... the universe is merely as flat as paper. meaning if you punch through a dimensional barrier (the paper), you are not just breaking the barrier but punching straight through a reality itself. (reference: 1st video above)

juggernaut was literally bulldozing through physical universes with his physical body just by walking around the multiverse in search for the Trion universe.

stepping on, punching at, and walking through quantum reality itself.

@lord_oraculous016

said:

lol.. Chthon never lost his powers.. that is the very reason why he cannot escape his own realm for there is no inter-dimensional rift that can contain the powers within him.. Chthon's influence on earth faded due to the pact created by sorcerers to create a lie that there is no God of Chaos, and that there is no Chaos Magic.. the Vishanti also took effort to counter his remaining influence on Earth by creating the Book of the Vishanti to serve as the opposing power to the dreaded Darkhold, a tome of great magic created by Chthon which has caused so much evil throughout history.. Cyttorak never set foot on Earth after being exiled.. Wanda's birth never restored Chthon's powers as they were never gone in the first place.. during the 6th century, Morgan Le Fay, and the cult of the Darkholders attempted to summon Chthon back on Earth.. upon his manifestation, they realized that a being of his power can never be controlled by any mortal means.. the greatest sorcerers of that era combined their powers to banish him back only to discover that they cannot.. so they just imprisoned his essence in a mountain later known as Mt. Wundagore.. the mountain later became the fortress of the High Evolutionary.. Gregor Russoff then used the Darkhold in an attempt to summon Chthon but failed to control him is essence.. Chthon summoned the Other to act in his behalf and it fought the High Evolutionary and the Knight of Wundagore.. at the same time, Magda, Magneto's wife was currently giving birth to the twins Pietro and Wanda.. the spirit of Magnus entered Russoff, used the Darkhold and sacrificed himself to banish Chthon back.. but before Chthon was completely banished, he blessed the newborn Wanda Maximoff a minuscule portion of his power and the ability to wield Chaos Magic which is the basis for Chthon unholy might.. it was Chthon who gave the Scarlet Witch the power to manipulate Chaos Magic, which later allowed her to alter reality in a multiversal/omniversal scale.. Wanda has nothing to do with the level of Chthon's powers.. Chthon simply sees her as the next vessel for his demonic majesty..



false. he had lost power before and his powers do indeed fluctuate given the circumstances just like any other dark lord would to try to regain more power. but not only that; chthon as well as all other elder gods powers fluctuate depending on that of the circumstances very much unlike cyttorak, who's powers do not drop nor rise simply because it is a constant and unlimited power. here, let us test the attributes of chthon's power and its ability to stay constant by 1st introducing the other elder gods such as demogorge and set.

so how powerful is demogorge? what can he generate?

  • It so happens that atum's base level is as equivalent as the powers sun. but, i shall allow him more credit since...
  • he is able to absorb more power by consuming the demons & gods (moreso ALL demons obviously) transforming into demogorge.

but this is the very same thing set was able to do, in fact introducing the ability gain more energies after consuming other gods

so as the scans above suggest. chthon had to run away, while set had the fortitude to face demogorge for a longer duration of time before he had to escape himself. furthermore, set even challenged atum a 2nd time, one which lasted for centuries and wiping most of the dinosaurs off earth. so this is proof that even set was able to loose power, but what of chthon? oh but wait, what is this? the bottom right-hand panel implies that chthon is subjugated to death and oblivion to which at no end needed to plot a way for assurance by creating a check point system, but in order for this to work, he needed to be alive and NOT ABSORBED by demogorge.

here is a map that indicates the key points as to why your statements of chthon being as grand and unlimited as cyttorak is purely conjecture and contradicting to the cause of the arc, let alone the purpose of the elder gods.

and to further detest your claim as why chthon is superior to cyttorak is that the elder gods are ethereal beings. beings of a physical aspect like a spirit is a subject of particles of ectoplasmic life energies. this is to them being as physical as air, yet air is still effected by fundamental energies since air is a substance of physical particles. this means that if you amp magneto up just enough, he is able to effectively attack and defend himself from the elder gods. heck, even the ghost busters will affect the elder gods with their weapons which i will get back to that in a little bit, but if quasar with the enigma force was somewhat able to effect set, then magneto with the enigma force will do much better.... granted i'm not going to allow magneto victory with overall power magnitude, because all of us know that set is more powerful and has a much wider scale and variety use of its power other than just electromagnetism. but the point of the matter is magneto's power can still directly effect set or any of the elder gods if giving enough amp.

unlike, he can with juggernaut.... a being that defies the very essence, definition & laws of physics.

  • the juggernaut has proven to defy the laws of nuclear bonds. (strong force)
  • the juggernaut has proven to defy the laws of beta decay (weak force)
  • the juggernaut has proven to defy the laws of density and mass interaction with space (gravity)
  • and he was proven that he defies the laws of particle wave frequencies (electromagnetism)

here is an example that juggernaut is impervious to the alternation of matter proving that juggernaut is not even made out of atoms, not even held together by electrons keeping atoms together! this is a very defiance of physics and where the impossible is only described as unforeseen magic.

not able to be warped through electromagnetism means that nothing else who can control reality on a grander scale like stranger or beyonder and molecule man can not as well alters the essence of matter awhole. which means the chaos wave can not directly harm juggernaut at all.

magneto would have to use his powers indirectly to attack or defend himself from juggernaut. thus meaning everything else has to be taken indirectly through powers: ie: reality warpers can manipulate the ground or create walls or even a labyrinth to buy some time. but the smartest move for a reality warper to do, is to bfr itself or the juggernaut some place far enough. ei: beyonder bfr the juggernaut onto an asteroid some light years away.

magneto demonstrating an indirect approach against the juggernaut.

no force that is dependent on physics can harm the juggernaut. period... says so the opinion of stan lee (creator of juggernaut/cyttorak)

@lord_oraculous016 said:

the power of an Elder God surpasses that of a Cosmic Cube which possess the power to alter reality on a universal scale..

here is the power of the Cosmic Cube


yet even the combined power of the Cosmic Cube and that of the Sorcerer Supreme cannot destroy the Elder Gods Set but rather just merely exorcise his influence for a little while.. and for the record Chthon > Set..


where on any one of those scans does it dictate that elder gods are above cosmic cubes? you say "universal scale" as though it can effect a whole universe at one instant... but not so... also, you are forgetting that cosmic cubes can grow sentient and deny a user wishes even becoming a being of its own like the beyonder. anyway, the term universal means anywhere limited to a specific area and common only to that area. in translation; the cosmic cube can only effect a radius around its controller and/or depending on that controllers knowledge of that space around him. can the elder god's effect more area than the average cosmic cube? well yes... their powers have a wider radius... (that is to the average user and their level of consciousness)

does that necessarily mean their power is more potent than an average cosmic cube? no...

chthon demonstrated that his powers do not work at a blink of an eye. it works as a contagion that spreads its way slowly but surely effecting random areas by probability indirectly effecting everything else.

but... notice how i added emphasis to the word average directed at the cosmic cubes.... why? well, there are exceptions. cosmic cubes are constructed both technologically and naturally from excess power coming from where? the extra dimension, correct? and collecting power from someplace so vast means containing that energy through limited methods from a limited universe (like eternity). beyonder was one of those cosmic cubes, in fact, the biggest one and that was post reconned and you're saying that chthon's power is greater than beyonder's? or even pre-recon molecule man? If beyonder and molecule man wanted to use their powers in a form of a shockwave to alter reality they can... but instead, that idea was already automatically implied (CIS to reality warp a multiverse) so the writer wanted them to run around the multiverse instead and pick different areas to warp. and if i do remember correctly, beyonder did snap his finger to instantly change the entire multiverse as quick as the eye can blink. so no, it is not accurate to say that elder gods are more powerful than the cosmic cubes. --but cyttorak is.

as for the 2nd scan with set vs combined might of dr. strange, thing, spiderman and cosmic cube is even proof itself that someone as inexpierienced as spiderman was able to destroy set's physical body. a body which is his real own...

  1. this is the finale of a saga were set travels multiversal earths to influence people of collecting the serpent crowns, but he is physically destroyed by one cosmic cube
  2. and exercised temporary thanks to the antics of agamotto (if not for agamotto, set would have been permanently sealed)
  3. for some reason set and chthon just needs to get their hands on a physical sentient host! which in contrast to abstracts and principalities, does not. and what differs from the principality deities from fundamental abstracts like eternity -eternity usually ends up to be the prime target to be possessed by it's own occupants whether mortal or not.
  4. thousands of thousands of magically empowered vipers are desprately at full strength and power to stop the exorcism.

counter points:

  1. earth is merely youtube to cyttorak. he uses facebook every once in awhile to ask dr. strange what's up and release his pitbull juggernaut out to play in the back yard.
  2. well... dr. strange can not do anything at all when faced before cyttorak's essence so exercising that is out of the question. even if he did have 1000 cosmic cubes and 200 infinite gauntlets. agamotto is a joke to cyttorak which neither set nor chthon are in par to agamotto.
  3. well we know for a fact that agamotto and horrath can just materialize a physical host body from thin air.... unlike the evil elder gods, who need to prep for eons just to locate a suitable host body to conquer.
  4. considering the entire multiverse, cyttorak has countless of 1/8 juggernauts to command. <----- i will go further into detail on this later in the post.

@lord_oraculous016 said:

he turned the Young Avengers into stone..

the juggernaut effect:

juggernaut can alter probability too by the decision he makes effecting all those he thinks of. in fact, he is probably in more control of this than in wanda.

and here's why he IS in control of his power rather than that of wanda.

the reason why juggernaut doesn't do this more often than he should is because preferences and the pride of keeping that preference. the man behind the juggernaut is a human after all, correct? so would he not wish to set his power levels to at least super human status rather than choosing godliness?.... c'mon now, cain's ego is not that big. he just want to draw unlimited strength and durability... those where his preferences.

if he wanted to shoot energy he can:

if he wanted to teleport; he can.

if he wants to use magic; he can.

if he wanted to alter mass and density; he can.

his power is through the crimson gem of cyttorak. a non physical gem yet shaped into a magic solid that is comprised with ONLY 1/8 of the "physical" aspect of an entire essence/cosmos. 1/8th of that aspect in compressed into that tiny stone. that is basically saying 1/8 of an entire physical universe that is greater than eternity is behind the juggernaut. all that power he is able to access, yet he does not want simply due to human moral preferences. and that is the purpose of TRION JUGGERNAUT. a juggernaut that is oblivious to morals or preference. ONE WHO CAN UTILIZE the gem to its fullest.

explaining the fraction of limitless....

why was the juggernaut able to defeat the entire exemplars of the wager of octessence?

click from top to left to right.

well, all of the octessence including raggadorr infused 1/8 of their essence, that is to say of their universe into 1 physical item. each item is foreseen to be found by people of randomness and the wager was cyttorak, they all though they could surpass him. cyttorak accepted the wager simply out of entertainment, but did something the other octessence did not. cyttorak embodied 1/8 of another fraction, namely the fraction of a physical aspect of his entire whole into 1 item; the crimson gem. and this was shown, as juggernaut over powered all of the exemplars at once by only using a serious fraction of 12.5%.

depowered juggernaut is likely using less than 10% of the 1/8.

normal juggernaut is likely using 20% of the 1/8. (inside of preference zone)

8th day juggernaut is likely using 40% of the 1/8 (serious minded angered away from preference zone)

and trion juggernaut is likely using 80% of the 1/8 (moral is off) *

*possibly even utilizing 100% of it, but he did not show any other form of powers besides his physical might.

ok, now let's get back to this:

keep note of the bottom right hand panel.

classic nightmare....

about classic nightmare: (click spoiler)

inside is the1st battle between nightmare and dr. strange

now the 2nd time eternity has been captured by nightmare; strange lost!

now both eternity AND dr. strange are victims of nightmare

now that both dr. strange and eternity are under the mercy of nightmare, dr. strange has no choice but to summon the most powerful being he believes can stop nightmare...

the unstoppable J-J-JUGGERNAUT!

nightmare has no choice now but to fight the juggernaut since the juggernaut is the only thing that stands between him and multiversal conquest.

nightmare is surprised at the shere might of the juggernaut and even with the powers of his and eternity's combined, HE CAN NOT STOP THE JUGGERNAUT!

juggernaut sucks him up using the power of the crimson cosmos, where nightmare is made an example of. this weakened nightmare's control over his containment of the eye of agamotto, eternity and strange.

after strange was free, he uses the power of watoomb to regain his belongings and free eternity once more.

but this can't have ever been done if without the aid juggernaut.

notekeep in mind that the nightmare mikaboshi killed, was the skyfather level nightmare. this is the weakest incarnation of nightmare. the real nightmare is above multi-eternity. this is the nightmare that hailed to shuma gorath

well, lance, i see that your hiding some context through that last scan. why is that?

it is because the extra details strays off to the over all point that juggernaut was superior to nightmare. but let us satisfy your curiosity and go to the full next pages of this battle that was already finished right after juggernaut severely weakened nightmare.

these scans actually further strengthens my point by showing that eternities is subjected to oblivion. it was not eternity's power that transported both the juggernaut and nightmare to oblivion, it was oblivion who took in the two which then leads into another battle - the juggernaut vs oblivion!

here are the key points to the two scans above:

  • the context dictate, that if had not been for juggernaut to fulfill his purpose of weakening nightmare's control of his captives
  • nightmare would have destroyed all matter in every single time line of a reality
  • this would not have been possible if had not been for strange's last ditch effort in summoning the juggernaut because he knew that nightmare can weaken, and that juggernaut's power stays constant forever.
  • eternity is an essence of TIME, an aspect that can surely be manipulated like it has throughout the history of time itself.
  • nightmare is screaming "Noooooo" while the juggernaut is just enjoying the ride as the two of them are sucked into oblivion.... dictates that juggernaut is unconcerned (all he wants is just to get back to earth and have a beer)

"well, eternity said himself, that he was able to get out on his own!"

a fabricating bluff just through the context alone as time is not consistent with oblivion so that power was not of eternity's for he merely knocked while oblivion opened his doors. the proof of the matter that eternity is subjugated to oblivion (void) is that time and space can be manipulated and warped into nothingness.... oblivion knows this and so does mikaboshi. furthermore.... also nightmare knew about this. ---> ((OPEN THE SPOILER ABOVE))

Eternity and Mikaboshi: Two Halves of a Whole

key points of the scan above:

  • mikaboshi persuaded eternity about his other half as a void
  • where mikaboshi becomes apart of that aspect using his will over eternity's and using eternity's power to causes his havok
  • but of course the chaos war is hardly to take serious at all since the whole arc blatantly contradicts oblivion's existence at all.

but look here:

another reason to know why eternity was NOT able to free himself while contained by nightmare.

key points of the scan above:

  • ancient one overwhelms eternity
  • ancient one considers cyttorak as his favorite principality and one as such where he wishes to never disobey.
  • and reason why dormammu & nightmare are able to consistently target eternity.

fundamental abstract like space & time CAN die.... (keep in mind that death can not kill dr. strange when protected by the "EXTRA DIMENSIONAL DEITIES".) which is consistent to juggernaut and strengthening further the points for cyttorak.

key points for the scan above:

  • contradicts everything whom people take for granted for that "seeing is believing".
  • eternity could have died multiple times by the control of nightmare
  • eternity could have died by the ancient one if ancient one so much wanted to
  • eternity could have eventually died by even chthon if not for science and prep-time

every one of these points from all the segments above are all key indicators that dictate proof why cyttorak is above all of these characters including chthon.

and speaking of chthon and the elder gods, let's get back to them. not that we where straying off topic anyway since everything else is relevant to the topic.

let's take a look at the physical aspects again:

an unknown piece of a fraction of 1/8th of a fraction of the physical aspect of cyttorak vs 100% of a physical "host" of the essences of ---- let's say set.

juggernaut was unharmed by most all powerful entities it have ever fought. but in comparison to set's body, set is able to suffer injuries.

now don't forget... eternity powered nightmare, eternity himself, oblivion himself, beyonder, the stranger could not warp, destroy or wipe off existence the juggernaut. even not the multiversal classic strange that challenged the living tribunal could not.

chthon's feats!

@lord_oraculous016 said:

  1. flooded newyork with blood
  2. encased san fransisco with amber
  3. made it blizzard in arazona
  4. overwhelmed philadelphia with vegetation
  5. changed the F4's atomic frequency to mere radio channels, specifically channel 4 everywhere
  6. summoned a swarm of flesh eating insects in toronto
  7. created chaotic life forms magically out of nothing
  8. he literally erased oklahoma off the map and imprisoned the entire dimension of asgard in a void dimension leaving even the mighty thor powerless before him..

chthon's feats!

@lord_oraculous016

said:

he was rewriting reality itself before his image..

d'oh! there he goes with his host again. like i've explained before, using a host is acute proof that dictates your characters limitations. and to make matters even more contravening towards chthon, is that it took him one whole day to start a "cascade" of chaos. this indicates that for 1) chthon needs prep 2) chthon needs momentum (a push) to get his schemes moving & 3) once his scheme (via power and spells) begin to roll; it rolls slow.

and sure he can re-image everything he is capable of comprehending, but it will take him as fast as writing an entire book

@lord_oraculous016

said:

Chthon's power affected more than just Earth, as he said that all of reality will fall before him in a blink of an eye..

despite the utter hint of excitement and obnoxiousness of his words and demeanor; it is quite apparent that his statements are over exaggerated due to ego that was derived from his current achievements. in other words, he was bragging about himself and congratulating himself with exaggeration. well why??? well, because through his actions, he can not... he needs hosts to physically do something, he needs large amounts of prep power, his powers fluctuate through cause and effect and his spells work way too slowly....

point? the hints of conceit and joy.

he CAN NOT re-image all of reality in a blink of an eye because he does not even have the perception or even the comprehension of an entire reality.

@lord_oraculous016

said:

he even claims that a multiversal/omniversal reality warper like the Scarlet Witch who's spell affected universes is still beneath him.. why not? he gave her a fraction of his power to begin with..

i will explain about the scarlet witch later, but for the mean time....

and much more below the essence of cyttorak who doesn't even care less of the physical universe unparalleled to his.

@lord_oraculous016

said:

even powerful mystic beings such as Dormammu invokes the power of Chthon..

and lost...

@lord_oraculous016

said:

Chthon's mere manifestation on Earth threatens all of reality likewise Eternity himself.. Eternity, the embodiment of all that exist states that Chthon is like a cancer which Eternity himself is dying from and soon enough, all of reality itself will fall before Chthon.. Eternity later expressed eternal gratitude to Hank Pym and even proclaimed him as the Scientist Supreme from saving Eternity from Chthon..


you are doing yourself more harm loosing this argument by indirectly agreeing with me that chthon does in fact have limits. as i mentioned waaay up above before, chthon was subjugated by science. it happened in the past and repeated itself again through these scans. that within itself dictates, yet again that chthon as well as any of the elder gods, have even more weaknesses than one. this is conclusive evidence (yet again!) that cyttorak is placed much much more higher than any of these guys mentioned so far.

note: i want the people who are reading this to compare contagion destruction to instant destruction. and i also want you guys to compare physical destruction to conceptual destruction. ask yourselves which one is worst. but before you people even inquiry yourselves that conundrum, research and grasp the FACTS of physical reality vs perceptional reality. only by then, you people will understand the words that i say are the truth.

break time: play the video...

turn the volume up just enough to walk around and stretch...

@lord_oraculous016

said:

it was Chthon who gave Wanda Maximoff the power to manipulate Chaos Magic which is the basis for Chthon's unholy might in an attempt to use her as a pawn for his eventual return..







another key to point out, it was just another one of those fallen grand schemes of his. 1st it was the darkhold and now he needs a host. fact of the matter is, even that chthon's needs of writing a book consisting to most dark arts and spells is also consistent to his limits for he needed to create a book and his wanting of possessing people. but there again, science has denied him, and so has faith and lies have denied him as well... even the power of the sun can deny him... so there no arguing that he is par or even remotely close to cytorak's essence. he is nothing but a "lesser sphered inner-dimensional" creature to cyttorak, who watches the multiverse like 1 second episodes on youtube. the multiverse is just but a blink of an eye to cyttorak.

@lord_oraculous016 said:

Wand Maximoff grew to become the Scarlet Witch.. at the height of her powers during the House of M, she altered the reality of the entire Earth 616 with nothing but a whim..





more proof that deprives your argument credibility; where these scans contradict that the chaos wave does not effect the extra-dimensional plane. stating that the extra-dimension is the safe haven from the effects of the chaos wave. nice try though.

but the exiles can not deceive cyttorak!

@lord_oraculous016 said:

everyone was affected.. yes, even Cyttorak's favorite avatar.. the Juggernaut..

lol, i remember reading this issue when it 1st came out and i've been looking for the scans for the longest times so at this point i should thank you for this scan and confirming my memory that juggernaut is not ever directly effected through reality warps. if i can recall correctly, (it would help if you threw all the scans in) juggernaut was being chased by 10+ x-men or mixture of x-men and other people because i remember super heavy hitters joining in to try to subdue the juggernaut. one of them was the elephant guy, and the guy made out of rocks, blob and colossus plus others... while juggernaut was fighting the majority of them, blob jumped off the blackbird from several hundreds of feet in the air in an attempt to land on top of the juggernaut. he did, but sooner got picked up and knocked out by the juggernaut. everyone else including cyclops & britain couldn't stop the juggernaut.... that is until that "X" shaped portal stopped the entire fight in wonder. juggernaut picks up the blob and uses blob to clog up the portal. the portal eventually gets bigger though, but indirectly affecting the juggernaut by the area around him. (they were on a floating piece of rock in the middle of no where) in fact, i'm trying to remember the reason why they wanted to stop him was because juggernaut actually wanted to walk through that portal, and they thought that if he did, he would be affecting everything else. and by the way, this was Excalibur juggernaut anyway, so he was pretty much depowered from the get go through his choices to become good.

anyway, warping reality does not directly affect juggernaut. it is like throwing water on a Rain-X treated windshield. the power just repels off of him. oblivion sought this as true, just as beyonder and stranger. but however.... time does, but as i stated before in past debates; only by passively or indirectly...

"lance are you contradicting yourself this statement from the last point you made about quantum realities-chaos wave- & time-"????

no, i am not... here's why,

juggernaut has a forcefield that generates its own probability effects. he's proven to steal momentum from others, freeze people and even affecting perfect aim at him when shot at. this forcefield is the aspect that partakes the essence of cyttorak's "magic" proportion. that magic considered exocentic and out of the ordinary probably due to the fact of its sources comes from timelessness. so anything that touches this field becomes voided. since we already by now that the chaos wave doesn't effect cyttorak at all, it shouldn't even effect juggernaut at all as well. but when i say indirectly, that means the power itself can effect juggernaut. wanda would have to know cain's past enough to alter it, by making cain not find that gem... but we already know that wanda is oblivious to cain... she doesn't know him at all except through reputation and a few battles. the only person in the marvel continuity that knows cain the best is charles xavier. (jean can too because some of xavier's memories of cain are embedded in her) these are the things that destroy cain from the inside; his past! and wanda knows nothing of it to affect if unless by starting with cain's father and mother. but even this plot is folly, since even dr. doom wishes not to take the crimson gem from cain because he does not wish to be a subject under cyttorak, which passively he is since he uses his power for his magics. so no.. but good try though... juggernaut would run right through that chaos wave like an athlete would running against 5mph winds...

relevancy to dr. doom?

dr. doom takes all power he wishes. all powers except the crimson gem because he knows that he can benefit freer will to become a master and conquerer of his own stead instead as a herald of another force greater than he.

PR beyonder ADMITS that dr. doom is too dangerous to exist and still can not banish him! beyonder has to fight him in physical form just to extract revenge.

however, we do't see doom messing around with cyttorak other than chanting for him!

@lord_oraculous016 said:

the use of Wanda's powers made a tear in the fabric of reality causing the reality of catastrophic wave of temporal energy the destroyed everything in its path and even threatened to reach the Throne of God itself..



omg the chaos wave is sooo slow!, and evidently it did not reach god. it didn't even reach genesis, shuma gorath or even cyttorak for that matter. the living tribunal was also unconcerned of this chaos wave because it didn't really do anything to shift the balance of power. this is why i say that reality warping powers do not equal absolute power. it just alters and rearranges particles of matter and the energy of its source; only effecting the physical aspect of what one deems a reality is. wanda for the most part, is just a living mortal with powers of two kinds. but her mind or to be fully precise; her perception of reality is very limited to.... well... a human mortal's perspective. a human moral's plane of dimensional comprehension which is to say the least anywhere between the 3rd to lower parts of the 4th dimension of perception. the chaos wave could not have reached anything outside of that plane of -HER- level, or dimension of comprehension.... why? because despite that wanda has the power of choas and probability, her perception is no where even close to a God or even the "throne" of God if even he did have one that we can even comprehend as a throne. for logical reason; the only things that wanda's chaos waved really could have altered are things only she can comprehend. ie: people, things, places any concrete noun that is tangent to her understanding. and effecting them indirectly through time. --again... these are things that are unlike the aspects of cyttorak or anything else higher than eternity and infinity. to be honest, i don't even think the chaos wave could affect nightmare or mikaboshi even for that matter. well, maybe she might affect mkaboshi, because apparently, mikaboshi just like chthon only wants to cause chaos to physical means and not by conceptual means. so these two guys, are even lower comprehension levels than beings like shuma gorath and zom because shuma wanted to consume energy of all kinds, even conceptual, and zom pretty much was destroying the concept of "good" just by covering the universe with evil by just his presence.... lol, no wonder the living tribunal had problems zom. zom gave living tribunal a headach both during and after this sagas. does nebulos ring a bell? living tribunal had to challenge dr. strange which ended up in a humbled stalemate. and then he needed stranges help to fight mordor followed by nebulos who was so powerful (extra-dimensional entity like cytorak), that living tribunal had to physically wrestle the guy with strange supporting him in the background.

and since you started this whole, "God"; the chaos wave would have threatened, i will just have to throw down the cyttorak vs living tribunal trump card again.

reference to chaos king vs cyttorak

once again play this: listen to it.... as you scroll down....

to fully understand what i'm about to tell you.. you must play..

how does this make cyttorak stronger than the living tribunal?

before dr. strange absorbed alot of the most powerful beings in the universe and bored powers and artifacts from several extra-dimensional deities like cyttorak and fought with shuma gorath, dr. strange had already fought the a "living tribunal amped in-betweener AND the LIVING TRIBUNAL itself. (using just a few octessence's & the vishanti's power ALONE.

fact:

  • dr. strange was so powerful that he was disturbing the balance of power in the universe that the living tribunal ruled that dr. strange must be stopped
  • the living tribunal amps up the in-betweener to fight dr. strange.
  • in-betweener lost.
  • the living tribunal fights dr. strange itself
  • living tribunal's neigh-omnipotent reality warping powers do not work so the living tribunal has a contest with dr. strange on WHO CAN INVOKE MORE POWER FROM THE EXTRA DIMENSIONAL PLANE (namely the octessence!)
  • strange and tribunal agree on a temporary truths.
  • strange won.
  • then shuma gorath shows up.

who are raggadorr and seraphim and why is the living tribunal calling to them to invoke their power?

1st off, let us define the word "INVOKE".

in·voke

–verb (used with object), -voked, -vok·ing.

1. to call for with earnest desire; make supplication or pray for: to invoke God's mercy.

2. to call on (a deity, Muse, etc.), as in prayer or supplication.

3. to declare to be binding or in effect: to invoke the law; to invoke a veto.

4. to appeal to, as for confirmation.

5. to petition or call on for help or aid.

6. to call forth or upon (a spirit) by incantation.

7. to cause, call forth, or bring about.

raggadorr and the seraphim are both extra-dimension deities of the extra-dimensional plane. raggadorr being one of the octessence. knowing that dr. strange had tipped the scale of power in large degree, the living tribunal could not simply use it's use power to simply cancel powers, let alone, blink dr. strange out of existence so he needed the extra power to fight dr. strange.

soooo... does this mean the raggadorr and the seraphim are stronger than cyttorak?

well... let's see......

apparently not!

it is known inside the marvel HQ, that cyttorak is the champion of the extra-dimensional plane. according to the vishanti, cyttorak almost conquered the entire extra-dimension, but instead took a chunk out of it to claim all his own. no deity in existence of the extra-dimensional plane wish to challenge cyttorak alone. in the scan above, you can see just how helpless dr. strange is inside the extra-dimensional plane where lives these deities.

fact: cyttorak is far stronger more powerful compared to the vishanti, seraphim, trion, zom, raggadorr AND the rest of the octessence!

raggadorr and the octessence onvine cyttorak to wager on a contest of power using avatars....

note: juggernaut solos the entire octessence's exemplars

note 2: each of these exemplars are significantly stronger than thor by a large margin

@lord_oraculous016

said:

the Chaos Wave basically destroyed and re-created the OMNIVERSE.

wrong again...

so no... she did not destroy anything... everything that you said as altered, you replaced as destroy which are two totally different things. now that's out of the way....

both of these scans above will be in regards to your "wheel of beyond" poster....

@lord_oraculous016

said:

@napoleon said:

" i actually read that guys whole Cyttorak post (all of you guys should as well) and i have to say its pretty convincing, i know think Cyttorak would kick his ass easy (the guy gave ALOT of evidence that Cyttoraks power can NOT be control or curbed by people outside his universe "

sadly he has several flaws.. one is that the Crimson Cosmos is NOT, and i mean NOT outside the Marvel Universe.. it is just a parallel dimension along side other mystical realms.. the realm which lies outside the Marvel Universe are the Realm of Death, Ataleza's Domain and the White Hot Room..

Cyttorak has never displayed any feat comparable to that of Mikaboshi much more the Living Tribunal.. Cyttorak is nothing more but a deity/demon, he is nowhere near the top of the Cosmic Heirachy..

because that is what you want to believe.

@lord_oraculous016:

so you found this at a head shop? and claim it to be 100% marvel produced?

show me the back of that poster...

1st of all what is THIS!?

you even said it yourself at times. -_-;

closer look....

max heindel's perspective on the 7 planes of consciousness.

note: man can eventually reach the 7th conscious....

wanda's level of consciousness and comprehension vs higher than eternity abstracts.

the area of reality in motion. the area in which scarlet witch resides in; while higher level conscious observe just like the image of this paper.

picture wanda as 1 pixel of this image, and you are a being of the extra dimensional plane that has the power to copy this image, save it, edit it to your liking, delete it and wipe it!

in relevance to the diagram 4 pictures up.

the above plus the statements below are consistent with everything what, i've been trying to say. that and the statements below are also consistent with my argument and contrary to your scan below these diagrams.

@lord_oraculous016 said: said:

Wanda Maximoff casted her final spell over billions of souls.. over worlds and dimension..




souls as the ones that she can perceive and comprehend, otherwise no...

so no more mutants... no more powers... but yet, over billions of souls --- spanning from different dimensions..... key words; "billions" + "dimensions" = earth? or perhaps a couple of earth's in addition to some other planets... effecting billions of souls is nothing in comparison to thanos who literally affected billions of quadrillions of souls after his blink of half a universe.

fact that i am not just making things up along the way as you or anyone else claim:

the conceptual reality > material reality

take a 20 minute break from reading as this plays

it is a scientific fact that became generalized in comics

@lord_oraculous016 said:

she shifted all possible futures of the entire Marvel Continuity..




i've already explained this part... she does it indirectly and only through her comprehension of what she thinks a reality works.... and besides....

your argument is negated.... =p

@lord_oraculous016 said:

she also affected alternate universes altogether..








same as before....

1) watcher does not look concerned, only interested... and reality is the perception of frequency so thereof, science can stop the chaos wave... and chthon's power gets owned again...

@lord_oraculous016

said:

on a diverging reality discussing what if the Scarlet Witch ended the House of M by saying "NO MORE POWERS" showed a greater extent to her power where she managed to depower every super-powered beings like breaking the connection a Sorcerer Supreme has with the mystic arts, canceling cosmic-energy based powers, such as that of the Fantastic Four, stripping all the world's mutants of their variety of powers and eliminating powers caused by irradiation on a cellular level or by gamma-ray blood transfusions, as well as revealing and de-powering all the concealed Skrulls on Earth and all Inhumans, including Black Bolt on Earth's moon..




that is unless anyone who perceives and comprehend the term and essence of power the same as she, yes... this is acceptable... however; a flaw yet again... what is power? and especially for the entities that comprehend much higher than her... what is power to chthon? what is it to living tribunal and lastly, what is it to cyttorak? because if she really did taken all forms of power away away, the entire physical plane of reality would be nothing but void, since matter and energy is a form of power. so her wishing "NO MORE POWERS" states her limit and also states that her comprehension of power is only that of super human powers. dr. strange did not loose his powers, his sources are still there (the principalities), what she did to him, was cast a bigger version of what thor did, when he used against juggernaut... but unlike dr. strange, juggernaut's power is constant while it is directly tied to the crimson cosmos. this is why when people think that thor completely cut off juggernaut's powers, he actually only negated juggernaut's forcefield for a brief time... but even then, juggernaut was still indestructible and stronger than thor. (though thor was faster and more skilled at fighting) that goes to say that even if wanda did say no more powers to juggernaut, it would only just scratch the surface of him namely the forcefield, while the rest of him physically plummets her. and unlike the juggernaut, scarlet witch is a subject of the laws of the physics of a regular woman being. she has been killed before where juggernaut never has. and as for the rest; everythings already been explained through a 100 mile stretch of forum!

so if chthon and his ultimate host can go head to head with the living tribunal, then sure.... they might have a chance.

but until then, it is a surely obvious and definite win for cyttorak.

@lord_oraculous016 said:

fact is, Juggernaut who if i'm not mistaken had 1/8 of Cyttorak's powers was profoundly affected by Wanda's powers.. if that is the case Wanda could have easily erased Juggernaut from existence if she wanted too.. something similar to this scenario..


or this..

lol no.....

again you're missing a critical detail here, which i believe your doing on purpose by covering them....

wanda's powers are 100% her own and some parts chthon's.... what are his fractions he lay down upon her? well there is no detail of it anywhere in the comics but just specified to be some fraction of some kind....

but that is aside of the matter that this proof has heavily rained scores of hard factual and conceptual evidence to this table... in fact this table, this very discussion can even bare with the overwhelming weight of evidences! despite what fraction that chthon handed to wanda is voided, because he has proved that he has limits... he has proved that he has weaknesses and proved that he has no comprehension or the perception of reality as cyttorak... he is lower, in fact so low, (metaphorically speaking) he is like an ant from a 1st dimensional perception looking up at the feet of a 100 story statue (/metaphorically speaking)

@lord_oraculous016 said:

those are the facts of Chthon's powers.. and they are far greater than anything Cyttorak has mustered so far..

And one more thing - why do you think Cyttorak is not universe buster since he didnt show that feat?

even if he is a universal buster.. a fraction of Chthon's power has been PROVEN to affect more that a single universe and more-so, the multiverse/omniverse.. lol

All facts tell us he can destroy demensions and the whole universe.

he was never shown to be capable of destroying dimensions or universes.. he was just simply breaking barriers between dimension.. those two are very different things.. and even if he can destroy a single universe, a fraction of Chthon's power affected the multiverse/omniverse with just 3 simple words and has destroyed and re-created the omniverse why the result of using those powers.. that feat thrumps everything..

All facts tell us he has limitless power in his own demension.

that is not a fact.. that is just a grand description without any proof.. unless you can prove that to me by posting a scan showing Cyttorak has indeed limitless power.. lol.. even if so, Chthon has been described to be OMNIPOTENT within his realm.. and limitless power does not always equates to omnipotence.. lol

I am waiting for real prooflinks from you.

lol.. now i am waiting for you to prove everything that you have just said.. or will you just retort to you redundant far-fetched opinions of Cyttorak's power.. :P

ok let's see.... what we've learned today is that:

chthon's pro:

  • alot of feats consistent but not always limited too, the physical universe.
  • he can use his mind and soul to influence the physical plane through limited means but definite through progress
  • he is adept to prep time and comes up with some so-so full schemes.
  • he can possess a host, preferably one with higher potential levels (much like m. bison or mister sinister)
  • he can ripple effect space and time (chain reaction through cause and effect)
  • is arguably the most powerful (but not by far) of the elder gods
  • inner-dimensional conception of "evil"

cons:

  • has assured limits
  • has assured weaknesses
  • needs hosts to operated on the physical plane otherwise all he can do is "influence".
  • needs assurance through the darkhold (all state insurance: "you're in good hands".... -IF YOU PAY THE PRICE) lol
  • he needs prep
  • he's slow at prep
  • he is effected through probability
  • he is effected through science (in general)
  • he is effected through magics more powerful than his comprehension levels
  • his powers are not constant since they fluctuate
  • he needs recuperation time
  • his essence is made up of ethereal particles
  • he's a liar thus he deceives and corrupts to gain himself advantage (and not others unlike cyttorak)
  • he has proved to be directly less powerful than galactus (although through cause & effect, he can still take on galactus)
  • he is a coward (runs away when things get to tight under the collar)
  • he is afraid of death & oblivion (reason why he hid from demogorge that contrary itself from cyttorak who sees all the fundamental aspects as "lesser" and "limited".
  • his cause and effect spells of chaos work alot slower that traditional reality warpers. (the ones who blink)
  • he is not extra-dimensional nor even draws power from the extra-dimension meaning ikkon or seraphim can kick his ass.
  • he is negated to or from the extra-dimension his powers, do not effect it.
  • he is implied limited to possessing physical beings of classes not higher than skyfather... becuase if he really wanted potential from a host, he would go after eternity (as dormammu did) or galactus (like dr. doom did)
  • he needed create a book of limited spells namely the dark arts of chaos which it to its own is limited.
  • needed a book suggest that his memory is also limited.

there are just so many cons that stack upon each other dictating as a fact that chthon is ubberly inferior to cyttorak in every aspect!!!

now, let's take a dive again into cyttorak...

why does cyttorak have many forms... many... m-bodies.... ????

@bumnut

said:

@Lance Bastro said:

@bumnut said:

@Lance Bastro said:

lol cyttorak doesn't plan; he does! (there is no time in the cosmos)

Battles not in his domain, it's in 616/milky way galaxy. Sorry, he's screwed.
if the crimson cosmos enters the milky way, that would be like saying, "outter space will enter earth atmosphere." -where is the logic in that?
It's simple Lance, according to the op, it does not state the crimson cosmos in this battle, period. It states that Cyttorak is tired of ruling only the Crimson Cosmos and enters 616 universe and is confronted by the Skyfathers mentioned, IN MARVEL 616, and as far as I know, the crimson cosmos does not reside in the milky way galaxy last time I checked. So, what we have here, is Cyttorak, outside of his ruling realm/power source, entering mainstream 616, where really, imo, he aint all that, to be taking on muliple skyfathers at once.

lol, you think cyttorak is an actual being?? like a physical being? or one that even takes shape? wait wait wait... let me show you some pictures here.

which one of these top pictures here is cyttorak???

here, let me give you a hint:

cyttorak is a conceptual deity, he; or rather; IT, is an aspect of a whole other reality. a reality greater than anything physical or even anything our imagination can comprehend.

it is before time itself. before idea and materials.

cyttorak was so huge it influenced between marvel's reality and malibu which not even the Living Tribunal can not influence.

any extra dimensional entity is far above the inner dimensional powerhouses save for living tribunal or possibly protege, PR beyonder and all of the inner dimensional defenses known as the celestiels. inner dimensional entities like mephisto, loki, odin, dormarru, atum, etc are not higher than beings that control the outter space portions of the marvel continuity.

the trion juggernaut with the maximum gem power of 12% of just the physical aspect of the crimson cosmos/cyttorak.

d'spayre uses a fraction of what he's borrowed from juggernaut.

means this....

cyttorak is vastly bigger than these skyfather level gods and one cosmic beings. it would be much fairer if he went up against the entire cosmic compass: death, eternity, oblivion, infinity. cosmic scales: galactus/abraxus, in-betweener, lord chaos, master order. the cosmic cubes: beyonder, PR molecule man, protege. the infinity gems.

cyttorak is the crimson cosmos.

so back to the question.

how does outter space, fit itself into the atmosphere of earth?

simple... by compressing 1/8 of a physical aspect and squeezing all that into a fist sized gem. and teleporting it inside.

a crimson rift in space as cyttorak takes a peak inside =p

explaining the symbolic concepts of cyttorak

some of the people who read up on stan lee's soap box, feel a new respect for cyttorak and his avatar.

explaining the fraction of limitless.... (again)

bu- bu- but cyttorak can get k.o'ed! (gasp!!)

@CapitolPunishment

said:

@Lance Bastro:

Cytorrak gets punched into a coma and his "jem" removed from his forehead. Same way Juggernaut did it.

The sky fathers still stomp.

a test to see if juggernaut was smart enough to deny deceit... one which juggernaut had failed to see during that arc due to greed, hence why juggernaut lost his power after retrieving the gem of "nothing". cyttorak was the entire area they were walking on.... he is the crimson cosmos awhole!

i mean...

i come now... we already know how powerful shuma gorath was. he is more powerful than oshtur, hoggoth and agamotto combined. and it takes ALL of their power and WITS just to push in a stalemate! let's briefly compare cyttorak to shuma.

shuma gorath

cyttorak

@CapitolPunishment said:

@Lance Bastro:
Durig the house of M arc strange admitted he was powerless to stop what was going on. Without massive amounts of prep he has no chance here.

You should stop adding your own captions to the scans, it takes away from the context of the comic.

actually i add the original scans (with all contents) and the context translations. you want the whole thing, then fine... the context stays the same whether or not the captions are there.

PART ONE

original scan: outside space & time context to protection against chaos.

captioned scan: explaining the concept of the context.

the proof that the context above is CONSISTANT with the scan below.

PART 2

original scans: context of a battle between two powers which the abstract on (living tribunal) uses spells of the principality to counter dr. strange's spells of the principalities. living tribunal looses his focus due to anger, which is one of the conceptual aspects of cyttorak hereby loosing his grip of the rings of raggadorr who ling tribunal needed to protect himself from using the spell of the principality, seraphim's shield.

captioned scans: indicating key points of the context that the living tribunal needed to use spells of the EXTRA-DIMENSION to battle dr. strange. and that the living tribunal was subjected under the bounds of raggaddor's "potent curse", and ACKNOWLEDGING that dr. strange is indeed THAT POWERFUL.

PART THREE

original scan: context implying that any power within the boundaries of materialistic reality is unaffected against the EXTRA-DIMENTION

captioned scan: explaining that context that supports the extra-dimension is impervious to reality shifting events.

PART 4:

proof that cyttorak among others is EXTRA-DIMNSIONAL, therefore, each of the PRINCIPALITIES are EXTRA-DIMENSION thus being dr. strange's power source.

PART 5

proof that living tribunal is weaker than EXTRA-DIMENSION beings like PROTEGE

protege defeats beyonder and the living tribunal in the power game....
and they are nothing but small fries to him....

PART 6

proof that protege is an EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL being just like the rest of the principalities.

PART 7:

proof that living tribunal invokes the powers of the EXTRA-DIMENSION through the principalities, namely raggadorr and seraphim.

go to part 1 to look at the original context of the scans that support this caption above.

PART 8

proof that only other extra-dimensional powers can effectively effect another extra-dimensional power.

all of these key points indicates strong evidence that materialistic reality destroyers are nothing against beings that are "conceptually" beyond SPACE, TIME, MIND, SOUL, POWER, REALITY. these beings are called the WORLD BEYOND WORLD entities... they are an aspect of perception as it is. beyond the meaning of comprehension. they are beyond. and mikaboshi, scarlet witch/chthon, thanos w/ the infinity gantlet, PR molecule man and mad jim jaspers are NOT beyond comprehension.

NOTE: CLASSIC DR STRANGE AND CURRENT DR. STRANGE ARE NOT THE SAME Dr. Strange.... THIS WAS EXPLAINED BY THE ARC WHERE DR.STRANGE created duplicates of himself. one of the duplicates is the current dr. strange while the other duplicates of strange roam about the multiverse. the current namely the HOM dr. strange is perhaps one of the weaker dupes of the original dr. strange. the HOM strange may need prep time to affect wanda, BUT... the REAL dr. strange will destroy her since he is more powerful than chthon.

strange can fight against death means that juggernaut can too???

@cosmic_reign

said:

@Lance Bastro: If Strange is relying on his extra-dimensional backup, he losses badly as a single celestial displayed sufficient power to seal off multiple dimensions denying access to further resources...as did Korvac when he stole the powers from big G's worldship. IMO Strange gets eliminated in round 1

that's why i said on the my 1st post, that save for scathan the celestial and protege, he would end up reaching the living tribunal. korvac taken the power cosmic, but the power cosmic is power that is inner-dimension; not extra-dimensional. death (an inner-dimensional entity and aspect of all that ends), could not kill dr. strange because, from her words... "you are protected by the extra-dimensional powers" or something of that matter... hold on, let me find the scans....

oh, "mystical aura", and we both know that the mystical aura death is talking about is of the vishianti and other principalities.

keep in mind that he fought death without prep.

the fact of the matter is; death prepped for her capture of dr. strange and she failed.

most of the cosmic fights with strange hardly requires prep at all. the characters he prepped against were, zom & shuma gorath....

when he fought:

  • galactus
  • death
  • in-betweener (lord chaos/master order)
  • in-betweener (living tribunal)
  • nebulos
  • dormammu
  • zom powered mordor
  • mephisto and satanish (together)
  • nightmare
  • all the elder's of the universe (bearers of the infinity gems)
  • living tribunal

he fought them all on the fly... no prep...

and the reason why he didn't prep, is because he was the one targeted.

in all logical reasoning, most if not all comics (it's a stretch to say all), the people who initiate the plot of a story is mainly the antagonist (the bad guys). they plan before the main character does. save for the living tribunal fight, because living tribunal just wanted to destroy earth (tainted with zom's evil) and strange didn't prep, he had no idea the living tribunal wanted to destroy his planet and defeated it on the fly.

the power of perception over reality reflected through the crimson cosmos and channeled to the juggernaut.

@TheUltimateSurvivor

said:

@Lance Bastro said:

@CapitolPunishment said:

@TheUltimateSurvivor:
Just putting the scan out there so others can see more than just a BIO.\

@Lance Bastro said:

@TheUltimateSurvivor said:

@Lance Bastro said:

oh yea, hulk gets bigger too and more bulkier the madder he gets, but so far, he haven't seen him turn 100 feet tall like the juggernaut did when he increased his powers.

I don't remember Hulk getting bigger in comics, the only instances I remember is when Abomination went bigger and.... Guilt Hulk.
bigger by muscle mass and also by bone mass because typically hulk is slightly over 7 feet tall, but in other instances, he is 10 feet tall. juggernaut is the same because as cain, he is almost the same height as charles xavier, say 6'2, but as juggernaut he fluctuates from being 6'2 - 7'0 up to being over 10 feet tall and to 100 feet tall and up to 1,000 feet tall.



Juggernaut as big as a mountain

That battle is going on inside Cain's mind, nice try.

no, that was happening in the crimson cosmos.
Actually he's right, that was a mind battle when Juggernaut cut loose and messed up all the Wager.

mind via consciousness, but keep in mind that the consciousness was directly linked to the crimson cosmos. in other words, cain's soul is linked with it so even if the outside world perceived that cain's mind is creating this image, in actual reality, cain's consciousness was transported from the physical plain into the crimson cosmos where he materialized another physical body to face cyttorak.

watch this: " CONSCIOUSNESS OVER MATTER" <-------watch video

the overall and utmost reason why i am posting this very detailed oriented "blog", is so that i can allow you to see, by opening up your mind and freeing yourself from any biasness, that your materialized perspective channeled through your debates can only get you so far. materialistic matters... those are the only things you've been arguing about. our world and even that of the comic world IS NOT all about material. there are things that are well beyond that, and your character, chthon... has proved that he is limited to the same materials as your comprehension can must muster. he has the same limits... the same perception of reality as you and i.... cyttorak is one that is beyond comprehension that we see it.... and that's all i wanted you to know. all of you.

thanks for reading... good night & live long and prosper....

-lance bastro

the finale to theme to this discussion =p

(you get to decide who you are) =p


 
 
 
 
 

 
@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

Cytorrak, Chthon, and Set are featless. It's really a battle between Dormammu and Shuma Gorath.

Cyttorak was a huge factor in the biggest Marvel War in history. The War of the Seven Spheres. 
The Seven Sphere War of the Omniverse was happening while all other wars, including Infinity War, HOM, Heart of the Universe, Chaos War, Secret War 1 & 2 were happening inside a multiverse. 
Keep in mind that the Seven Sphere War was much bigger than all the events of the multiverse. 
The Multiverse is in only one of the smaller sphere's of realities. 
#13 Edited by Melab (32 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: An accurate observation.

@TheSecondOpinion: Lance Bastro's walls of words and pictures are worthless. He cherrypicks panels scripted by different authors over the passage of decades, connects disparate pieces of exposition together that do not share the same context, assigns undue weight to what he cites, and makes huge leaps in logic.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you deconstruct an argument with the utmost elegance.

#14 Posted by the_mighty_Beyonder (701 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Cyttorak
2. Shuma Gorath
3. Chthon
3. Set
5. Dormammu

#15 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

I don't feel like an expert about SG, but: 1.Sise-Neg pretty much created multversum. Yet, he still couldn't kill SG, just banish him. I don't think that if these people/demons come to fight, they are limited to versions that just had avatars in normal realm. This hardly give his opponents any real way for win, since SG won't be one who was present in Invaders or even in Canncerverse.

1. Sise-Neg feat in comics says universe, in bio says universe,i really dont see why people keep aggravating it as multiverse. This was brought up in other thread and i did not agree, nor will i agree now. After all his appearences are limited to 2 issues and i bio, all of which i have read, twice. The only this i have no read is his appreances in What IF. I still dont understand why he gets amped up to multiversal, i did not agree with Shuma Gorath (A user in comicvine) when he presented his argument, i do not agree with you now.

Also most importantly, Sise Neg was growing more and more powerful as he went on, he was travelling back through time. Its very hard to know how power he was before he absorbed Shuma-Gorath.

2.SG can't be killed. Strange defeated him and... was possesed by his consciousness. And it wasn't like normal Strange vs. SG, but Strange with pwoer of 3 or 4 different powerfull magic beings. And then just by mere presence, Strange was going to destroy whole galaxies. For me this alone, puts him above Galactus. 3.He was powerfull enough to grant Lord Mar-Vell a power thas was great enough to take out an Abstract level being. Of course, someone can say that there were 4 gods, not only Shuma, but it still gives him a place in Abstract level.

2. Shuma Gorath can be killed, he weakens under stone hedge and the only weapon capable of killing it is called Spear of Destiny.

Shuma vs Dr. Strange:

a. Marvel Premier 14, Shuma was tapping into Ancient One's ego, Dr. Strange beat him by destroying his ego.

b. Strange Tales Vol 2, 15. This was Dr. Strange vs Shuma Gorath in Gorath's own realm where he was initially. Dr.Strange only had the that is not his standard equipment was Wings of Needless Sorrow. Not to mention it was Gorath own realm where he is amped, and the fight lasted 2 pages, so meh, still not impressed.

c. Marvel Knight 27, where Dr. Strange effectively beats him, off panel, at stone hedge , where he weakens. Did apart from threatening the Fantastic Four and Earth, and apart from himself claiming he has rules various eternities (never shown just claimed) didnt do jack.

Those are all the fight he has with Dr. Strange nothing really shows he is that powerful.

As per Dr. Strange destroying the galaxy, after being Shuma Gorath he absorbs his energy, turning into an evil version, that version would be awesomely powerful above and beyond Galactus but how does that even remotely indicate Shuma Gorath is above Galactus though?

4. Shuma Gorath didnot do anything, those were done via Many Angled Ones during Thanos Imperative, while Shuma Gorath was revealed as one, who else are included in Many Angled ones are unknown. Then we have same Mar Vell losing to Thanos in a straight up fight before plot kicked in.

I get it even LT is a massive jobber, but he has at least, on panel, achieved a lot of things. Shuma Gorath hasnt done jack.

@Melab said:

It's in the presentation, Killemall. He rarely shows up, characters begin to sound very dire when he is around, and a load of Lovecraftian jargon is used to describe him.

I Still dont get it man, he has literally achieved nothing on panel and pretty much lost everytime due to plot without achieving anything at all.

#16 Posted by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: The Spear of Destiny wasn't capable of killing Shuma-Gorath. All it did was seal the gateway that allowed the demon to gain entry into the Earth realm.

Strange already had the power of Shuma-Gorath coursing in him to be able to defeat the demon in battle, which doesn't really put Shuma on the down-low as you would think.

Shuma-Gorath was already weakened and hungry even without being in the vicinity of Stone Henge. There is nothing in any of those panels that would suggest that Shuma would weaken upon getting to Stone Henge. Strange merely used the energies in Stone Henge to banish Gorath after having an off-panel battle with the demon which nearly got him killed.

You acknowledge that the version of Strange in which he absorbed the essence of Shuma-Gorath is above Galactus and yet you can't figure out how Shuma-Gorath himself can't be above Galactus? You honestly let that go over your head even after you answered your own question?

Shuma-Gorath was revealed as a Many-Angled One, but he didn't do anything because the Many-Angled Ones did it? Exactly, what sort of logic are you following here?

Hasn't done jack? Notwithstanding the fact that he was shown to trounce Nightmare in his own dimension without gaining personal entry, surrounded the Earth in a ring of fire with a mere gesture from hundreds of dimensions away, fought a battle with Strange that was felt by every sorcerer and caused the infernal realms to collapse, mind-raped the Ancient Ones from across 100+ dimensional barriers, empowered (with the three other Many-Angled Gods) the Galactus Engine that killed Arishem the Judge, Aegis, Celestials, and made the Abstracts look no bigger than ticks, changed Strange into a galaxy-buster who didn't even have to try?

#17 Posted by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

Order by ranking:

1. Shuma-Gorath

2. Cyttorak

3. Chthon

4. Set.

5. Dormammu

#18 Edited by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

@Killemall: The Spear of Destiny wasn't capable of killing Shuma-Gorath. All it did was seal the gateway that allowed the demon to gain entry into the Earth realm.

Re-checked it, apologies you are correct my bad.

Strange already had the power of Shuma-Gorath coursing in him to be able to defeat the demon in battle, which doesn't really put Shuma on the down-low as you would think.

I am not saying the defeat puts him below his power level i am saying an utter lack of accomplishment does.

Shuma-Gorath was already weakened and hungry even without being in the vicinity of Stone Henge. There is nothing in any of those panels that would suggest that Shuma would weaken upon getting to Stone Henge. Strange merely used the energies in Stone Henge to banish Gorath after having an off-panel battle with the demon which nearly got him killed.

Fair enough.

You acknowledge that the version of Strange in which he absorbed the essence of Shuma-Gorath is above Galactus and yet you can't figure out how Shuma-Gorath himself can't be above Galactus? You honestly let that go over your head even after you answered your own question?

Because the power Strange possessed was not all of Shuma Gorath's power. He had on his won accord put back a universe that was destroyed during Strange Tales 146-147, not to mention it was Dr. Strange with his powers + amp from Wings of Needless sorrow + Shuma Powers looked more powerful than Galactus, doesnt normally translate to Shuma Gorath on his own accord being above him.

Shuma-Gorath was revealed as a Many-Angled One, but he didn't do anything because the Many-Angled Ones did it? Exactly, what sort of logic are you following here?

Its a perfectly logical assumption. Shuma Gorath was but of the assemblage that formed Many Angled Ones, while Shuman Gorath was one of them who else was included is unknown. A later story arc 2000AD reveals the there were various elder gods in the assemblage of many angled ones.

Hasn't done jack? Notwithstanding the fact that he was shown to trounce Nightmare in his own dimension without gaining personal entry, surrounded the Earth in a ring of fire with a mere gesture from hundreds of dimensions away, fought a battle with Strange that was felt by every sorcerer and caused the infernal realms to collapse, mind-raped the Ancient Ones from across 100+ dimensional barriers, empowered (with the three other Many-Angled Gods) the Galactus Engine that killed Arishem the Judge, Aegis, Celestials, and made the Abstracts look no bigger than ticks, changed Strange into a galaxy-buster who didn't even have to try?

Nightmare? Is that what you really want to force up with? The biggest jobber in cosmic history.

Surrounded the Earth in ring of fire, because his followers were trying to summon him, isnt even a feat. Heck Watchers have done that.

Mind-raped Ancient One? As in tap into his ego to come to earth?? I mean come on.

Galactus Engine was alternate reality Galactus and his ship turns into a weapon much like what Annihilus managed during Annihilation. That certainly isnt a feat that shows Shuma Gorath's power in the least.

Made Dr. Strange a casual galaxy buster, the same guy who has repaired a universe after Dormammu destroyed it on his own accord, the same person who was amped up the wings of needless sorrow. So Shuma Power made Dr. Strange go bad, and performed a feat which frankly is dwarfed by a feat Dr. Strange has done on his own accord without problem, and Dr. Strange was already amped before he got Shuma Gorath's powers shows Shuman gorath is that powers? And you are questioning my logic?

#19 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Shuma-Gorath is more powerful than Chthon, but less powerful than Cyttorak.

Based on opinion or feats? I am asking coz i know little to nothing about Chthon, and Cyttorak i have read few of his appearance hasnt done anything apart from viners wanking him using ABC logic.

#20 Edited by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

@Killemall: The Spear of Destiny wasn't capable of killing Shuma-Gorath. All it did was seal the gateway that allowed the demon to gain entry into the Earth realm.

Re-checked it, apologies you are correct my bad.

Strange already had the power of Shuma-Gorath coursing in him to be able to defeat the demon in battle, which doesn't really put Shuma on the down-low as you would think.

I am not saying the defeat puts him below his power level i am saying an utter lack of accomplishment does.

Shuma-Gorath was already weakened and hungry even without being in the vicinity of Stone Henge. There is nothing in any of those panels that would suggest that Shuma would weaken upon getting to Stone Henge. Strange merely used the energies in Stone Henge to banish Gorath after having an off-panel battle with the demon which nearly got him killed.

Fair enough.

You acknowledge that the version of Strange in which he absorbed the essence of Shuma-Gorath is above Galactus and yet you can't figure out how Shuma-Gorath himself can't be above Galactus? You honestly let that go over your head even after you answered your own question?

Because the power Strange possessed was not all of Shuma Gorath's power. He had on his won accord put back a universe that was destroyed during Strange Tales 146-147, not to mention it was Dr. Strange with his powers + amp from Wings of Needless sorrow + Shuma Powers looked more powerful than Galactus, doesnt normally translate to Shuma Gorath on his own accord being above him.

Shuma-Gorath was revealed as a Many-Angled One, but he didn't do anything because the Many-Angled Ones did it? Exactly, what sort of logic are you following here?

Its a perfectly logical assumption. Shuma Gorath was but of the assemblage that formed Many Angled Ones, while Shuman Gorath was one of them who else was included is unknown. A later story arc 2000AD reveals the there were various elder gods in the assemblage of many angled ones.

Hasn't done jack? Notwithstanding the fact that he was shown to trounce Nightmare in his own dimension without gaining personal entry, surrounded the Earth in a ring of fire with a mere gesture from hundreds of dimensions away, fought a battle with Strange that was felt by every sorcerer and caused the infernal realms to collapse, mind-raped the Ancient Ones from across 100+ dimensional barriers, empowered (with the three other Many-Angled Gods) the Galactus Engine that killed Arishem the Judge, Aegis, Celestials, and made the Abstracts look no bigger than ticks, changed Strange into a galaxy-buster who didn't even have to try?

Nightmare? Is that what you really want to force up with? The biggest jobber in cosmic history.

Surrounded the Earth in ring of fire, because his followers were trying to summon him, isnt even a feat. Heck Watchers have done that.

Mind-raped Ancient One? As in tap into his ego to come to earth?? I mean come on.

Galactus Engine was alternate reality Galactus and his ship turns into a weapon much like what Annihilus managed during Annihilation. That certainly isnt a feat that shows Shuma Gorath's power in the least.

Made Dr. Strange a casual galaxy buster, the same guy who has repaired a universe after Dormammu destroyed it on his own accord, the same person who was amped up the wings of needless sorrow. So Shuma Power made Dr. Strange go bad, and performed a feat which frankly is dwarfed by a feat Dr. Strange has done on his own accord without problem, and Dr. Strange was already amped before he got Shuma Gorath's powers shows Shuman gorath is that powers? And you are questioning my logic?

The galaxy-busting potential was only attributed to naught more than Shuma-Gorath's energy. The very same energies that required no effort to expend. How much effort would it take Galactus to bust galaxies? Exactly. No effort >>>>>>>>>>> Effort

The Lesser Ones are not Elder Gods. There are only four remaining Elder Gods in the Marvel omniverse, none of which were even connected to the Many-Angled Ones in the first place. How is it in any way a logical assumption that Shuma-Gorath didn't do what the Many-Angled Ones did when it was in fact revealed on panel that HE IS a Many-Angled One himself?

Except it would be jobbing only if Nightmare was bested by a party that was supposed to be inferior to him, which was far from the case.

The mystic globe was summoned under his own effort. Nothing in the panel mentioned anything about his follower giving him any extra leverage to make the feat itself possible.

Tap into his ego = Mindrape. Same difference. Rephrasing a statement that carries the same meaning and context really doesn't refute the feat.

It was EMPOWERED by the Many-Angled Ones, one of whom was Shuma-Gorath. Technically, it IS a feat that shows Shuma-Gorath's power.

You mean when Dormammu merged with the essence of Eternity and took control of the multiverse? The very same multiverse that was restored to its original state by Umar when she usurped Dormammu, further nullifying the assumption that 'Strange restored a universe under his own accord?'

#21 Edited by Prince_RehteStroC (137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Its a perfectly logical assumption. Shuma Gorath was but of the assemblage that formed Many Angled Ones, while Shuman Gorath was one of them who else was included is unknown. A later story arc 2000AD reveals the there were various elder gods in the assemblage of many angled ones.

It was stated that larger and more powerful entities than the Cancerverse Galactus Engine were detected coming through the fault. Considering Shuma-Gorath was one of four MAO's that were needed to get rid of Death, which was the ultimate goal of the MAO's in Thanos Imperative, it would only make sense that they were the most powerful of the MAO's - why would weaker MAO's be summoned for such an important task - , and therefore more powerful than the Galactus Engine of the Cancerverse that was handling Galactus + Celestials based on the reading that more powerful MAO's than the Galactus Engine were coming.

@Killemall said:

Nightmare? Is that what you really want to force up with? The biggest jobber in cosmic history.

He still completely dominated a Fear Lord that lived in Everinnye, a place so far away from 616 that it was higher than the sixth dimension, without even having to go there. That shows the scope of his influence and power is vast. Being a jobber doesn't automatically discount Shuma's feat either. Eternity is a bigger jobber than Nightmare even.

@Killemall said:

Mind-raped Ancient One? As in tap into his ego to come to earth?? I mean come on.

AO still knew and admitted that he was a goner as soon as he learned that Shuma-Gorath was targeting Earth. This is someone that decided to put up a fight against Zom.

#22 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

Is right so far

#23 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

The galaxy-busting potential was only attributed to naught more than Shuma-Gorath's energy. The very same energies that required no effort to expend. How much effort would it take Galactus to bust galaxies? Exactly. No effort >>>>>>>>>>> Effort

Firstly, in the most recent Thor Annual (2012) a fight between Galactus , The Other and Scarier nearly destroyed entire multiverse, so yeah i would say a fed Galactus is quite capable of doing a lot.

The Lesser Ones are not Elder Gods. There are only four remaining Elder Gods in the Marvel omniverse, none of which were even connected to the Many-Angled Ones in the first place. How is it in any way a logical assumption that Shuma-Gorath didn't do what the Many-Angled Ones did when it was in fact revealed on panel that HE IS a Many-Angled One himself?

What are you talking about. He IS one of the Many Angeled One, and they are still a assemblage of multiple beings the exact number of which is not yet explained. So a feat done by Many Angled Ones (a group of people whose size is yet unknown), off panel, cant be entirely attributed to Shuma-Gorath by any means, not to mention they performed their ritual to kill Death, as evident to what they were trying to do against Thanos.

Except it would be jobbing only if Nightmare was bested by a party that was supposed to be inferior to him, which was far from the case.

Except when people like Hulk beat Nightmare in his own dimension, nearly kill him there, when Nightmare was pretend to being Mephisto, any feat of beting Nightmare in his own dimension gets devalued. If you wanna show he is powerful show , or name, a feat he did which people like Hulk and Dr. Strange on their own accord have not matched or bettered.

The mystic globe was summoned under his own effort. Nothing in the panel mentioned anything about his follower giving him any extra leverage to make the feat itself possible.

The point was it was hardly an impressive feat given Watchers has done that rather casually during First Coming of Galactus. The reason i gave you the background was so that we know we are talking about same instance. Also how come we are ignoring the fact that Dr. Strange just as easily destroyed his ego, making the ancient one bonded to the unvierse and defeated Shuma Gorath? Why only take the high end feat from the issue and ignore his defeat there when it takes place the same issue (and the issue afterwards?)

It was EMPOWERED by the Many-Angled Ones, one of whom was Shuma-Gorath. Technically, it IS a feat that shows Shuma-Gorath's power.

It doesnt matter in the least, given Galactus and Galactus engine have always been a very formidable weapon. Galactus from 616 was turned into a weapon in Annihilation as well, and it was made pretty clear that Annihilus was going the destroy the whole universe with it, however he was stopped because Surfer later freed Galactus. So yeah thats more of a feat from alternate reality Galactus engine as oppose to Shuma-Gorath's own feat.

You mean when Dormammu merged with the essence of Eternity and took control of the multiverse? The very same multiverse that was restored to its original state by Umar when she usurped Dormammu, further nullifying the assumption that 'Strange restored a universe under his own accord?'

You are talking about a completely different issue mate. I am talking about Strange Tales 146/ 147 (1996) where Eternity was written as universe , while you are talking about Defeander Volume 3 ISsue 2-7 (2005) where Eternity was written as multiverse.

So if you want to nullify an assumption at least do so based on the issue i am referring to, specially given that i did mention the issue number on my last reply.

#24 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Prince_RehteStroC said:

It was stated that larger and more powerful entities than the Cancerverse Galactus Engine were detected coming through the fault.

I dont remember that statement at all, would you happen to have an issue number of scan? Also even if this did happen it goes against everything that was said in the series, that Galactus engine was their most powerful weapon.

Considering Shuma-Gorath was one of four MAO's that were needed to get rid of Death, which was the ultimate goal of the MAO's in Thanos Imperative, it would only make sense that they were the most powerful of the MAO's - why would weaker MAO's be summoned for such an important task - , and therefore more powerful than the Galactus Engine of the Cancerverse that was handling Galactus + Celestials based on the reading that more powerful MAO's than the Galactus Engine were coming.

Firstly killing an universal abstract , specially after performing a ritual that takes places off panel seems odd, when that particular feat is used to justify Shuma's power when he did not do it on his own accord. Rest i would address if you bring me the scan or issue number.

He still completely dominated a Fear Lord that lived in Everinnye, a place so far away from 616 that it was higher than the sixth dimension, without even having to go there. That shows the scope of his influence and power is vast.

So did hulk, nearly killed him, in his own dimension when he was pretending to be Mephisto, why should this be seen as say an impossible feat for Gorath, and PIS for Hulk?

Eternity is a bigger jobber than Nightmare even.

I disagree, Eternity is a jobber, so is Living Tribunal, but Eternity has never actually been defeated as casually as Nighmare, nor has eternity ever on panel stated facing a skyfather on earth , someone who was shown being defeated twice by Odin in the same series, someone who got defeated by Thor after being weakened by Loki, would be preposterous.

If you wanna claim Eternity is a jobber, i would love to see you quote an instance where Eternity has lost without a plot device or against an opponent against an opponent Nightmare could easily deal with and i would gladly accept.

The point of someone being a jobber is, you cant use a feat performed against him as a hard and fast proof to show someone's power level.

AO still knew and admitted that he was a goner as soon as he learned that Shuma-Gorath was targeting Earth. This is someone that decided to put up a fight against Zom.

Shuma Gorath was tapping into AO own powers, was gaining his power from AO's ego and you are using his statement to show Shuma-Gorath is powerful, when Shuma-Gorath in the same issue gets defeated by Dr. Strange when he shatters his ego, then we have at least 3 instances where Dr. Strange himself as admitted he is inferior to Ancient One.

So yeah, that sort of falls out of place.

#25 Posted by Deadgod (1500 posts) - - Show Bio

After reading epic explanation by Lance Bastro i say

1 Cyttorak

2 Shuma Gorath

3 Set

4 Chthon

5 Dormammu

#26 Posted by Melab (32 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

#27 Edited by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

The galaxy-busting potential was only attributed to naught more than Shuma-Gorath's energy. The very same energies that required no effort to expend. How much effort would it take Galactus to bust galaxies? Exactly. No effort >>>>>>>>>>> Effort

Firstly, in the most recent Thor Annual (2012) a fight between Galactus , The Other and Scarier nearly destroyed entire multiverse, so yeah i would say a fed Galactus is quite capable of doing a lot.

The Lesser Ones are not Elder Gods. There are only four remaining Elder Gods in the Marvel omniverse, none of which were even connected to the Many-Angled Ones in the first place. How is it in any way a logical assumption that Shuma-Gorath didn't do what the Many-Angled Ones did when it was in fact revealed on panel that HE IS a Many-Angled One himself?

What are you talking about. He IS one of the Many Angeled One, and they are still a assemblage of multiple beings the exact number of which is not yet explained. So a feat done by Many Angled Ones (a group of people whose size is yet unknown), off panel, cant be entirely attributed to Shuma-Gorath by any means, not to mention they performed their ritual to kill Death, as evident to what they were trying to do against Thanos.

Except it would be jobbing only if Nightmare was bested by a party that was supposed to be inferior to him, which was far from the case.

Except when people like Hulk beat Nightmare in his own dimension, nearly kill him there, when Nightmare was pretend to being Mephisto, any feat of beting Nightmare in his own dimension gets devalued. If you wanna show he is powerful show , or name, a feat he did which people like Hulk and Dr. Strange on their own accord have not matched or bettered.

The mystic globe was summoned under his own effort. Nothing in the panel mentioned anything about his follower giving him any extra leverage to make the feat itself possible.

The point was it was hardly an impressive feat given Watchers has done that rather casually during First Coming of Galactus. The reason i gave you the background was so that we know we are talking about same instance. Also how come we are ignoring the fact that Dr. Strange just as easily destroyed his ego, making the ancient one bonded to the unvierse and defeated Shuma Gorath? Why only take the high end feat from the issue and ignore his defeat there when it takes place the same issue (and the issue afterwards?)

It was EMPOWERED by the Many-Angled Ones, one of whom was Shuma-Gorath. Technically, it IS a feat that shows Shuma-Gorath's power.

It doesnt matter in the least, given Galactus and Galactus engine have always been a very formidable weapon. Galactus from 616 was turned into a weapon in Annihilation as well, and it was made pretty clear that Annihilus was going the destroy the whole universe with it, however he was stopped because Surfer later freed Galactus. So yeah thats more of a feat from alternate reality Galactus engine as oppose to Shuma-Gorath's own feat.

You mean when Dormammu merged with the essence of Eternity and took control of the multiverse? The very same multiverse that was restored to its original state by Umar when she usurped Dormammu, further nullifying the assumption that 'Strange restored a universe under his own accord?'

You are talking about a completely different issue mate. I am talking about Strange Tales 146/ 147 (1996) where Eternity was written as universe , while you are talking about Defeander Volume 3 ISsue 2-7 (2005) where Eternity was written as multiverse.

So if you want to nullify an assumption at least do so based on the issue i am referring to, specially given that i did mention the issue number on my last reply.

Implying that I suggest the feat is entirely applicable to Shuma-Gorath. Thanks for the strawman.

Hulk beating Nightmare required Hulk to actually enter his realm first. Shuma-Gorath gave a simple gesture from far off and Nightmare was already dominated, thus the feat speaks for itself.

Yet another strawman, given that the globe simulacrum feat doesn't even begin to proceed itself as Gorath's highest feat in the place. I included the feat among several other feats to prove that your statement suggesting that Shuma-Gorath "hasn't done crap" was flat-out WRONG. Still, this further proves that Gorath doesn't have to ENTER a particular realm in order to influence it and/or destroy it, which is impressive in and of itself.

Right, except that we're not even talking about the same Galactus Engine here. There were at least three, the third one of which was built after the Cancerverse Galactus was killed by the Many-Angled Ones and empowered by the latter (stated in panel) and used to plow through a number of cosmic beings. You just jumped towards a completely different subjects that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Dormammu didn't even come close to destroying the universe in that arc. All he did was shatter Eternity's M-body and inadvertently spirit himself into a faraway pocket dimension. Returning to a more relevant subject though, the fact Shuma-Gorath did all these things further proves you wrong.

#28 Posted by Prince_RehteStroC (137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Prince_RehteStroC said:

It was stated that larger and more powerful entities than the Cancerverse Galactus Engine were detected coming through the fault.

I dont remember that statement at all, would you happen to have an issue number of scan? Also even if this did happen it goes against everything that was said in the series, that Galactus engine was their most powerful weapon.

The thing is, the Galactus Engine was built to be a weapon. The higher entities that followed weren't weapons, per se. Anyway, here's the relevant quote.

@Killemall said:

Shuma Gorath was tapping into AO own powers, was gaining his power from AO's ego and you are using his statement to show Shuma-Gorath is powerful, when Shuma-Gorath in the same issue gets defeated by Dr. Strange when he shatters his ego, then we have at least 3 instances where Dr. Strange himself as admitted he is inferior to Ancient One.

So yeah, that sort of falls out of place.

Shuma was defeated because his means of entering 616 was destroyed, which doesn't make Shuma dominating the AO any less impressive. AO dreaded Shuma's arrival on Earth and knew he was as good as dead. And as I said before, this is the same guy who has had no fear of combating many other godlike entities and dark sorcerers.

Besides, when Strange had to later utilize black magic to prepare to fight Shuma-Gorath, the Ancient One's rival, Kaluu, couldn't even make it to Shuma's lieutenant Arioch's realm without starting to die due to the strength of its energy. By that point Strange was far more powerful than the Ancient One had ever been before AO's merge with Eternity. And even with Strange's massive amp, he still didn't have a chance against Shuma until he absorbed Arioch, and even then he could only stalemate Shuma until Shuma forced the merging process on him and he started to turn into the chaos lord.

#29 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Shuma-Gorath is more powerful than Chthon, but less powerful than Cyttorak.

Based on opinion or feats? I am asking coz i know little to nothing about Chthon, and Cyttorak i have read few of his appearance hasnt done anything apart from viners wanking him using ABC logic.

Based on feats and comparison with a touch of stringing logic together.

Chthon is at best close to Dormammu's level, but what makes Dormammu more dangerous is that Dormammu has the ability to use conjuring stackable power.

CharacterPersonal PowerConjuring PowerDrawing Power
ChthonVery HighVery LowLow
DormammuVery HighExtremely HighVery High
  • Personal Power = Self Generating Power
  • Drawing Power = Channeling from a source to gain power
  • Conjuring Power = Invoking additional powers granted to by other deities

In comparison:

Chthon takes years if not centuries to a millennium to build personal power from his source, a nether dimension namely the Darkforce Dimension while the Darkhold acts as a conduit that streams negative energies from the Earthly Dimension to Chthon. Chthon can build near infinite destructive negative energies before feeling safe to be released into Eternities realm, (his original home dimension through Demiurge) When Chthon leaves his dimension into Eterniy's Multiverse, he takes that power with him, so the drawing power is relatively low, and there is nothing he can draw from from a neutral realm. So the power that he takes with him gradually deteriorates. He can substitute lost power with creating more negative energies (Chaos) within a neutral realm. That way, he has something to draw off from. Chthon has no conjuring power. He does not use principality aid, nor does he worship anyone else but himself.

Dormammu's personal power is self-sustaining since he is an eternal flame of the Faltine. In other words he doesn't need any other source to generate his own power but his own. But since Dormammu is also a master of all magics from the Power of Creation to the Power of Destruction, he uses magic to aid his powers borrowed from every kind of source no matter what it is. Unlike Chthon, however, Dormammu's power does not deteriorate. (He is an Eternal Flame of the Faltine). Dormammu does not like to draw or channel energy from a neutral dimension because of a rule he made for himself (not to borrow energy from Eternity's sources because he considers Eternity his eternal rival). Instead, Dormammu uses a reserve source of energies from the Dark Dimension, which he gained a long time ago. The Dark Dimension is known as the largest piece of all the Splinter Realms. His Splinter Realm makes Mephisto's Splinter Realm look like a shack compared to a highrising building. So his reserve is very big if he wishes to channel more energy than his personal power can generate. Lastly, Dormammu conjures powers from other deities. He invokes from Shuma-Gorath, Cyttorak, Raggaddorr, etc. <-- all of whom are consistently more powerful than Chthon. Interestingly enough, Dormammu invokes some power off of Chthon as well. All of these are stackable and supported through Dormammu's base power. His personal powers.

Cyttorak & Shuma are not wizards nor magic practitioners like the guys mentioned above. So they do not "Conjure" powers.

CharacterPersonal PowerSiphoning PowerNegation Power
Shuma-GorathExtremely HighInfiniteNone
CyttorakExtremely HighNoneInfinite

In comparison:

Shuma's personal power depends on what he's drained. He has a near infinite reach of siphoning energies from almost every reality in existence except for realities that are considered voids (like Outer Void & the Crimson Cosmos). Shuma is also dependent on time, so he leaches on it and can siphon energies from different time lines within those realities. His Chaos Dimension is possibly one of the largest of Netherrealm Dimensions out there and is possibly larger than all of the Splinter Realms combined.

Cyttorak is known as the sentience of the Crimson Cosmos itself that provides an forever lasting supply of infinite power. As much power that is borrowed from its source, it never deteriorates. That results that the entity Cyttorak never depowers or repowers. The power is constant and infinite. Cyttorak does not siphon power from anywhere but itself since the Crimson Cosmos generates constant infinite power. One interesting thing that Cyttorak can and has done before is to negate other sources of power from other realities. He has negated Galactus, the Vishanti, the Seraphim, the Faltine, Wottocomb, the Phoenix Force, the Trion and even Oblivion from erasing the Juggernaut.

Conclusion:

Cyttorak, Shuma, and Dormammu are extradimensional and originated outside of Eternity's realm.

Chthon and Set are Innerdimensional and originated inside Eternity realm.

Cyttorak resides in the Extra Dimension. Shuma and Chthon reside in a Neither Realm and Dormammu resides in a Splinter Realm.

Cyttorak provides on going infinite power at a constant and does not loss power or gain power.

Shuma can gain power and loss power determined by how much energies he's devouring.

Dormammu is one of a fraction of an eternal energy source (the Faltine). He can be overpowered by another energy source, but still has the ability to conjure up more powers through his principalities.

Chthon has the base power level of an Elder God, but has been studying and creating spells and inscribing them into the Darkhold. He does not conjure powers of others, but his power does fluctuate and therefore he can weaken.

  1. Cyttorak
  2. Shuma-Gorath
  3. Dormammu
  4. Chthon
  5. Set
#30 Posted by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

Shuma Gorath was tapping into AO own powers, was gaining his power from AO's ego and you are using his statement to show Shuma-Gorath is powerful, when Shuma-Gorath in the same issue gets defeated by Dr. Strange when he shatters his ego,

then we have at least 3 instances where Dr. Strange himself as admitted he is inferior to Ancient One. So yeah, that sort of falls out of place.

Plot-driven defeats don't make Shuma-Gorath any less powerful than he already is. He didn't tap into the AO's powers to gain control of his mind. The demon clearly states that the AO's struggles merely strengthened him. You've also neglected to mention throughout that entire battle, Gorath wasn't even taking Strange seriously and was merely toying with and taunting him with visions of a dystopian world ruled by the demon himself.

Why should it matter that Strange is inferior to the AO, when it's a clear fact that he couldn't rely on his personal powers to thwart Shuma-Gorath's return except through strategy and reasoning?

#31 Posted by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

Implying that I suggest the feat is entirely applicable to Shuma-Gorath. Thanks for the strawman.

Once you accept this, then you have to show me how exactly is a mere Galaxy busting feats, replicated by skyfather, Dr. Strange performed when surrounded by so many amps would suggest Shuma Gorath is powerful.

Hulk beating Nightmare required Hulk to actually enter his realm first. Shuma-Gorath gave a simple gesture from far off and Nightmare was already dominated, thus the feat speaks for itself.

So the feat to suggest Shuma Gorath superiority over Hulk is because he enterered Nightmare's realm on his own accord, is that it?

Yet another strawman, given that the globe simulacrum feat doesn't even begin to proceed itself as Gorath's highest feat in the place. I included the feat among several other feats to prove that your statement suggesting that Shuma-Gorath "hasn't done crap" was flat-out WRONG. Still, this further proves that Gorath doesn't have to ENTER a particular realm in order to influence it and/or destroy it, which is impressive in and of itself.

What strawman's argument. You have even stated a feat from Shuma that has been matched by the lack of Watchers and Hulk and you are claiming Gorath is mega powerful. All i ask is why, a clear instance where Gorath, on his own, unambigiously, has done something other cant replicate.

Right, except that we're not even talking about the same Galactus Engine here. There were at least three, the third one of which was built after the Cancerverse Galactus was killed by the Many-Angled Ones and empowered by the latter (stated in panel) and used to plow through a number of cosmic beings. You just jumped towards a completely different subjects that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Against, what part of the argument are you not seeing. Galactus/ his craft when turned into engine without being empowered by anything has performed just as impressive feats as what happened during Thanos Imperative. So using that to say on the ship was being empowered by Many Angled Ones, and one of whom is Shuma-Gorath so its a huge feats seems unwise. That is because weaponisation of Galactus was clearly shows as a universal power house in other story arc, i.e. Annihilation. That certainly isnt a feat you can attribute to Shuma Gorath.

Dormammu didn't even come close to destroying the universe in that arc. All he did was shatter Eternity's M-body and inadvertently spirit himself into a faraway pocket dimension. Returning to a more relevant subject though, the fact Shuma-Gorath did all these things further proves you wrong.

Now this is just flat out false.

#32 Edited by Killemall (18640 posts) - - Show Bio

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

Plot-driven defeats don't make Shuma-Gorath any less powerful than he already is. He didn't tap into the AO's powers to gain control of his mind. The demon clearly states that the AO's struggles merely strengthened him. You've also neglected to mention throughout that entire battle, Gorath wasn't even taking Strange seriously and was merely toying with and taunting him with visions of a dystopian world ruled by the demon himself.

Again you blaming me of saying something that i have not yet said. Plot driven defeats dont make Shuma-Gorath any less powerful, a complete and utter lack of any significant , unambigious feat does.

SG was tapping into AO ego, so his struggled made Shuma stronger, how does that change the fact that he lost. He wast taking Strange seriously, firstly his fault, second he lost so meh!

Why should it matter that Strange is inferior to the AO, when it's a clear fact that he couldn't rely on his personal powers to thwart Shuma-Gorath's return except through strategy and reasoning?

Argument is being made to suggest SG is powerful using a lousy ABC logic like AO fought against Zom and refused to fight against Shuma because he knew he would lose, so Shuma is superior. Which is horrible analogy because and given the fact that AO has been stated to be more powerful mage, him unable to fight Shuma and then him letting Strange handle it seems wrong.

Once you decide not to hang on to the most ambigious of ABC logic there is hardly anything Shuma-Gorath has done that would warrent him any sort of high stats.

#33 Posted by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

Implying that I suggest the feat is entirely applicable to Shuma-Gorath. Thanks for the strawman.

Once you accept this, then you have to show me how exactly is a mere Galaxy busting feats, replicated by skyfather, Dr. Strange performed when surrounded by so many amps would suggest Shuma Gorath is powerful.

Hulk beating Nightmare required Hulk to actually enter his realm first. Shuma-Gorath gave a simple gesture from far off and Nightmare was already dominated, thus the feat speaks for itself.

So the feat to suggest Shuma Gorath superiority over Hulk is because he enterered Nightmare's realm on his own accord, is that it?

Yet another strawman, given that the globe simulacrum feat doesn't even begin to proceed itself as Gorath's highest feat in the place. I included the feat among several other feats to prove that your statement suggesting that Shuma-Gorath "hasn't done crap" was flat-out WRONG. Still, this further proves that Gorath doesn't have to ENTER a particular realm in order to influence it and/or destroy it, which is impressive in and of itself.

What strawman's argument. You have even stated a feat from Shuma that has been matched by the lack of Watchers and Hulk and you are claiming Gorath is mega powerful. All i ask is why, a clear instance where Gorath, on his own, unambigiously, has done something other cant replicate.

Right, except that we're not even talking about the same Galactus Engine here. There were at least three, the third one of which was built after the Cancerverse Galactus was killed by the Many-Angled Ones and empowered by the latter (stated in panel) and used to plow through a number of cosmic beings. You just jumped towards a completely different subjects that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Against, what part of the argument are you not seeing. Galactus/ his craft when turned into engine without being empowered by anything has performed just as impressive feats as what happened during Thanos Imperative. So using that to say on the ship was being empowered by Many Angled Ones, and one of whom is Shuma-Gorath so its a huge feats seems unwise. That is because weaponisation of Galactus was clearly shows as a universal power house in other story arc, i.e. Annihilation. That certainly isnt a feat you can attribute to Shuma Gorath.

Dormammu didn't even come close to destroying the universe in that arc. All he did was shatter Eternity's M-body and inadvertently spirit himself into a faraway pocket dimension. Returning to a more relevant subject though, the fact Shuma-Gorath did all these things further proves you wrong.

Now this is just flat out false.

Skyfathers have to try in order to actually shatter a galaxy. Stephen Strange (amped with Shuma-Gorath's very essence) didn't have to. His mere presence would have collapsed multiple galaxies, which was a potential only attributed to Shuma-Gorath's respective energy. Show me a single panel where Kaluu states that in addition to Strange's other amps.

He dominated a Fear Lord without having to enter his home dimension, whereas Hulk did both. Clearly shows the scope of influence and power that Gorath has. And if that still went over your head, then there's no getting it back. Sorry.

Wow. Seriously? Read before you respond. I clearly stated that the global simulacrum was hardly Shuma's greatest feat in contradiction to you making it seem like I was going for that assumption. A clear instance where Gorath did something on his own that others can't replicate? So following your logic, if Galactus was shown to bust galaxies and Phoenix was shown to the same, that makes him less, or rather, NOT powerful? You missed the fact that my initial point wasn't to show you that Gorath's feats were unique, but to counter your ridiculous presumptions that "oh, he didn't do jack."

This is incredibly funny, considering we've already went over the fact that we aren't even talking about the same Galactus Engine, TWICE. The panel clearly states that the Engine itself was empowered by the 'beings' behind it, one of whom was Shuma-Gorath. This same Engine that left the Celestial Host leaderless, killed Aegis, and caused Abstracts to flee. Unwise? That you're attempting to juxtapose the Cancerverse Engine with a completely different version which bears no relevance to the former whatsoever is unwise.

False? Wow.....

Incredible.

#34 Edited by Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Azathoth_The_Dread_Sleeper said:

Plot-driven defeats don't make Shuma-Gorath any less powerful than he already is. He didn't tap into the AO's powers to gain control of his mind. The demon clearly states that the AO's struggles merely strengthened him. You've also neglected to mention throughout that entire battle, Gorath wasn't even taking Strange seriously and was merely toying with and taunting him with visions of a dystopian world ruled by the demon himself.

Again you blaming me of saying something that i have not yet said. Plot driven defeats dont make Shuma-Gorath any less powerful, a complete and utter lack of any significant , unambigious feat does.

SG was tapping into AO ego, so his struggled made Shuma stronger, how does that change the fact that he lost. He wast taking Strange seriously, firstly his fault, second he lost so meh!

Why should it matter that Strange is inferior to the AO, when it's a clear fact that he couldn't rely on his personal powers to thwart Shuma-Gorath's return except through strategy and reasoning?

Argument is being made to suggest SG is powerful using a lousy ABC logic like AO fought against Zom and refused to fight against Shuma because he knew he would lose, so Shuma is superior. Which is horrible analogy because and given the fact that AO has been stated to be more powerful mage, him unable to fight Shuma and then him letting Strange handle it seems wrong.

Once you decide not to hang on to the most ambigious of ABC logic there is hardly anything Shuma-Gorath has done that would warrent him any sort of high stats.

Which has already been proven to be flat-out FALSE in the first place.

Shuma-Gorath tore into the Ancient One's mind against his will and his presence drove the latter to consider SUICIDE. Strange had no other option to defeat Gorath except by DESTROYING the AO's ego, and thereby killing the AO to prevent the demon's crossing. Lost? Plenty of cosmic-level beings lost. Doom lost regularly to the FF because of his arrogance. Galactus never consumed Earth-616 because he was hungry, defeated, and swore never to attack it again. Gorath lost to Strange because he was toying with him and gave him too much time to strategize. PLOT-DRIVEN.

Seems wrong to you because you clearly let the facts go over your head. AGAIN. Incredible.

What ABC logic? Are we even on the same page here?

#35 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio
@Melab said:

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

Who said Cyttorak or Gorath where omnipotent? They are just more powerful than anything in a multiverse and the only thing that could temporarily repel them away is a plot device. Crimson Cosmos is not part of 616 nor any other universe in the mutiverse. Crimson Cosmos is displaced outside of the muliverse..
#36 Edited by Melab (32 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

Who said Cyttorak or Gorath where omnipotent? They are just more powerful than anything in a multiverse and the only thing that could temporarily repel them away is a plot device. Crimson Cosmos is not part of 616 nor any other universe in the mutiverse. Crimson Cosmos is displaced outside of the muliverse..

Wrong on all three counts, pal.

#37 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio

Keep in note, Chthon did possess scarlet witch and with just a fraction of his power  he destroyed the multiverse and recreated it in scarlet's body.

#38 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio
@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: No they are not the most powerful beings in the universe. Living tribunal could destroy anyone of these demons including chthon, shuma gorath, and cyttorak
#39 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Melab said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

Who said Cyttorak or Gorath where omnipotent? They are just more powerful than anything in a multiverse and the only thing that could temporarily repel them away is a plot device. Crimson Cosmos is not part of 616 nor any other universe in the mutiverse. Crimson Cosmos is displaced outside of the muliverse..

Wrong on all three counts, pal.

No one here but yourself mentioned here that they were omnipotent so you must be in disagreement with yourself.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: No they are not the most powerful beings in the universe. Living tribunal could destroy anyone of these demons including chthon, shuma gorath, and cyttorak

Reference search Living Tribunal vs Nebulus. Cannon. Compare Nebulus to Shuma-Gorath and Cyttorak.

Living Tribunal is only powerful within the borders of the multiverse. Cross Reference Ego Gem to Living Tribunal and see why he could not affect Malibu while Cyttorak was able to.

#40 Posted by Melab (32 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

Who said Cyttorak or Gorath where omnipotent? They are just more powerful than anything in a multiverse and the only thing that could temporarily repel them away is a plot device. Crimson Cosmos is not part of 616 nor any other universe in the mutiverse. Crimson Cosmos is displaced outside of the muliverse..

Wrong on all three counts, pal.

No one here but yourself mentioned here that they were omnipotent so you must be in disagreement with yourself.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: No they are not the most powerful beings in the universe. Living tribunal could destroy anyone of these demons including chthon, shuma gorath, and cyttorak

Reference search Living Tribunal vs Nebulus. Cannon. Compare Nebulus to Shuma-Gorath and Cyttorak.

Living Tribunal is only powerful within the borders of the multiverse. Cross Reference Ego Gem to Living Tribunal and see why he could not affect Malibu while Cyttorak was able to.

The three counts were in reference to your statements after the question mark. I also do not see how I am in disagreement with myself. I've seen that thread you reference and many others like it. I've also seen your posts on the matter. You suffer from confirmation bias, plain and simple. They [the posts] draw connections between disparate sources while simultaneously make extreme leaps in logic. Cyttorak is just another damn demon.

#41 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Melab said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

Who said Cyttorak or Gorath where omnipotent? They are just more powerful than anything in a multiverse and the only thing that could temporarily repel them away is a plot device. Crimson Cosmos is not part of 616 nor any other universe in the mutiverse. Crimson Cosmos is displaced outside of the muliverse..

Wrong on all three counts, pal.

No one here but yourself mentioned here that they were omnipotent so you must be in disagreement with yourself.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: No they are not the most powerful beings in the universe. Living tribunal could destroy anyone of these demons including chthon, shuma gorath, and cyttorak

Reference search Living Tribunal vs Nebulus. Cannon. Compare Nebulus to Shuma-Gorath and Cyttorak.

Living Tribunal is only powerful within the borders of the multiverse. Cross Reference Ego Gem to Living Tribunal and see why he could not affect Malibu while Cyttorak was able to.

The three counts were in reference to your statements after the question mark. I also do not see how I am in disagreement with myself. I've seen that thread you reference and many others like it. I've also seen your posts on the matter. You suffer from confirmation bias, plain and simple. They [the posts] draw connections between disparate sources while simultaneously make extreme leaps in logic. Cyttorak is just another damn demon.

He isn't a demon. He's whatever something perceives him as. So whatever he is - is a matter of perspective. Is he a god, a demon or a place? He's been all three of them so which one is it?

So what's about these questions that take an extreme leap in logic?

#42 Posted by Melab (32 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Melab said:

Oh my god, people. Cyttorak is not omnipotent, Shuma-Gorath is not omnipotent, the Crimson Cosmos is part of the Earth-616 universe, and these things change wildly from writer to writer.

Who said Cyttorak or Gorath where omnipotent? They are just more powerful than anything in a multiverse and the only thing that could temporarily repel them away is a plot device. Crimson Cosmos is not part of 616 nor any other universe in the mutiverse. Crimson Cosmos is displaced outside of the muliverse..

Wrong on all three counts, pal.

No one here but yourself mentioned here that they were omnipotent so you must be in disagreement with yourself.

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: No they are not the most powerful beings in the universe. Living tribunal could destroy anyone of these demons including chthon, shuma gorath, and cyttorak

Reference search Living Tribunal vs Nebulus. Cannon. Compare Nebulus to Shuma-Gorath and Cyttorak.

Living Tribunal is only powerful within the borders of the multiverse. Cross Reference Ego Gem to Living Tribunal and see why he could not affect Malibu while Cyttorak was able to.

The three counts were in reference to your statements after the question mark. I also do not see how I am in disagreement with myself. I've seen that thread you reference and many others like it. I've also seen your posts on the matter. You suffer from confirmation bias, plain and simple. They [the posts] draw connections between disparate sources while simultaneously make extreme leaps in logic. Cyttorak is just another damn demon.

He isn't a demon. He's whatever something perceives him as. So whatever he is - is a matter of perspective. Is he a god, a demon or a place? He's been all three of them so which one is it?

So what's about these questions that take an extreme leap in logic?

You do realize that is all narrative hyperbole, right?

#43 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is this thread over, keep going people

#44 Posted by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

Chthon.

#45 Posted by ShootingNova (18638 posts) - - Show Bio

Set stalemated Gaea, and Dormammu stalemated Eternity. Both are impressive, so I am not sure if Chthon is more powerful than Set.

#46 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

The only way Cyttorak looses this battle is by people's preferred opinions otherwise, he would be the natural winner.