The Batman family vs The Avengers

New52 can't do it but give them some time and they might be better. Pre crisis could since they have the batcave and all the stuff they will need plus 1 year prep. Iron Man is still human so he's much easier to take down since he's unexpecting, Thor, Hulk, and the other major hitters would be the problem

The Avengers may not have prep but if Batman, Nightwing and Red Robin join the Avengers during the year then the Avengers are at least familiar with what they have and what they can do. Avengers definitely win here.

@Shawnbaby: @Batman242: Batman family continuity hasn't changed since Flashpoint, (only minor tweaks to some of their history) but it's confirmed that most of events that happened post-COIE are still cannon for Batman and Green Lantern

@dondave said:

@Shawnbaby: @Batman242: Batman family continuity hasn't changed since Flashpoint, (only minor tweaks to some of their history) but it's confirmed that most of events that happened post-COIE are still cannon for Batman and Green Lantern

That's not Batman continuity though,,,that's JLA continuity...and that team doesn't exist in the New 52...so those events never happened.

Avengers.

In order for the Bats to really make use of the prep, they're going to have to build some major weapons to take down their heavy hitters like that anti-Hulk satellite gun Stark had. I can't see them doing anything major in a years time w/o getting the attention of the Avengers, Shield, etc. So...yeah. Whatever they do with a years worth of prep, I don't think will be enough for them to do anything about the big guns on the Avengers. Crazy martial arts prowess isn't going to do much against guys that can crush tanks like soda cans.

Batfamily!

Avengers.

Avengers

@Shawnbaby:No, it's specifically Batman and Green Lantern continuity that wasn't changed that much, everything else was, so essentially pre-52 feats count for New 52 Batman

@dondave said:

@Shawnbaby:No, it's specifically Batman and Green Lantern continuity that wasn't changed that much, everything else was, so essentially pre-52 feats count for New 52 Batman

Not if they involve his time with the JLA...like Tower of Babel does. So, no, Those prep feats that happened outside his own personal titles do not count in the New 52.

@Shawnbaby:All of his history is the same as confirmed by Dan Didio and Jim Lee. It's not his title's but rather his history, may events from Batman history were as a result of TOB and is therefore considered cannon as one of Batman's feats but not said in the Justice League title

@dondave said:

@Shawnbaby:All of his history is the same as confirmed by Dan Didio and Jim Lee. It's not his title's but rather his history, may events from Batman history were as a result of TOB and is therefore considered cannon as one of Batman's feats but not said in the Justice League title

How exactly can Tower of Babel still be considered canon if that JLA team never actually existed? Answer: It can't.

You have said yourself they have made some tweaks regarding Batman's history. This would be one of those tweaks.

I haven't read the thread but has anyone provided a realistic scenario how batman beats thor?

@jashro44 no it's the typical "Batman has prep so he wins automatically logic.". This battle is clearly a stomp for the Avengers an this thread should be locked.

Bloodlusted Avengers stomp with ease.

@Batman242:

Batman hasn't shown to be able to make a suit that could take out Thor.

Also since he is a member of the Avengers, I'm sure they would be studying him too. Black Panther is almost as paranoid as Batman so believe me, he will be studying him. I suspect Tony will too.

Gotta give this to Avengers as many of them have no actual weaknesses and are just as resourceful as Bruce.

@Lady_Liberty:

He's been working along side JLA for YEARS. And many of them have prounounced weaknesses. The only one he wasn't initimately familiar with was Kyle. But since he's worked with Hal Jordan, he already knew how the ring worked. These are people who all trusted him.

The Avengers have BP who joined the Avengers, and also obtained data on them. He is damn near as paranoid as Bruce. So he ain't accepting him at face value. Tony has become a bit more skeptical with age too. Even Steve has learned to be wary. Bat team ain't winning this.

@DaAwesome2: All the OP said that was Batman and family join the Avengers and have a year of prep to take them down. I don't know where you guys are getting all this BP won't trust em or he won't be able to get this and that, but it JUST says he joins them, fights along side them and has that year to prepare to take them down. If you say that he loses in the battle, I understand. But you guys are over analyzing.

@Batman242 said:

@DaAwesome2: All the OP said that was Batman and family join the Avengers and have a year of prep to take them down. I don't know where you guys are getting all this BP won't trust em or he won't be able to get this and that, but it JUST says he joins them, fights along side them and has that year to prepare to take them down. If you say that he loses in the battle, I understand. But you guys are over analyzing.

I think the point they are getting at is that many of the Avengers aren't as trusting as the JL...they won't be caught off-guard in the same way. Tony, much like Batman, also develops countermeasures to use against his allies in case they go bad and he has to put them down. Even Captain America used a sneaky emp on Iron Man during Civil War. They might not know that Bruce is plotting against them...but that doesn't mean they will be caught entirely unprepared.

I think the overall premise is a little flawed...you don't just show up in Manhattan one day and immediately get invited to join the Avengers...Especially if you're a mysterious dude who fields an army of children.

@Shawnbaby: Lol, all you say is true, but even if they do have a prep of some sort, it can't be that much because that would defeat the purpose, don't ya think? I remember people saying that Tony's suit can't be shut down my an EMP, but I guess that's why. Bruce and the family have the advantage of full knowledge and prep. If the Avengers get prep, it still won't be anywhere as good as Bruce's, 'cause they dont know about the upcoming battle, OR like in ToB, the sudden takedown of the Leaguers one by one.

@Batman242 said:

@Shawnbaby: Lol, all you say is true, but even if they do have a prep of some sort, it can't be that much because that would defeat the purpose, don't ya think? I remember people saying that Tony's suit can't be shut down my an EMP, but I guess that's why. Bruce and the family have the advantage of full knowledge and prep. If the Avengers get prep, it still won't be anywhere as good as Bruce's, 'cause they dont know about the upcoming battle, OR like in ToB, the sudden takedown of the Leaguers one by one.

They really don't need their prep to be any great shakes. It basically needs to be, oh these Bat beings are attacking us, somebody take a few minutes and take them out. We can draw lots.

@robertloucksjr: There goes the underestimation. How many people underestimate Batman at all? Zero. Darkseid knows what he is capable of doing and knows to try to get him on his side or take him out quick. Do you really think Bruce is just sitting in his Batcave praying that he's able to beat them for the one year? that's the only way I seeing it going the way you say it would.

@Batman242:

You're basically saying we should disgregard the character traits of certain Avengers then to make it more feasible for Batmn to catch them unaware.

3 dudes, one of whom is a minor, just show up out nowhere and join the Avengers. Several of whom have collected data on their allies on the low themselves, and everyone just accepts him like that.

Why would Batman and Tony be friends considering that Tony won't know who Bruce and Batman are one and the same?

@DaAwesome2: Two playboy billionaires not getting along? Seems odd.

Okay, I did make it feasible for the Bat-family, but if the Avengers DO have any knowledge, it can't be that much. The OP still says that he has prep. Nothing about any of the Avengers being in character, although you would automatically assume that they are. You're caught up in the prep and if Bruce and the family can do what they have to do. All I said is what he can do within that year. I.E: Maybe get a Wayne-Stark alliance and obtain schematics or even just analyze him in battle, obtain Vibranium even if not from Wakanda, Learn about a lot of Marvel's villains and all that they can do.

Here's why Batman and friends can't do it:

1) Team Batman would have their hands full just dealing with the Street Level Avengers (Captain America, Wolverine, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Daredevil, etc.)...but on top of that they also have to deal with all the Mid-Tier Superpowers (Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, Giant Man etc.) and then there are the Big Guns (Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Red Hulk, Thor,The Thing etc). Now, Even if you take the "Tower of Babel" incident in to account (Which you really shouldn't for reasons I've already explained)...you have to remember Batman spent years coming up with those plans and a few of the JLA ( Superman, MM) had known weaknesses for him to exploit and yet another one (Kyle) straight out told Batman exactly what he could do to neutralize him. None of the Avengers have such obvious weaknesses and none of them are just going to walk up to Batman and tell him what he needs to do to beat them...and there's a lot more Avengers to Neutralize and a lot less time to do it. Even if Team Bats some how manages to take all the Big Guns out of play....They still get Stomped by the rest (The Street Level Team alone should be more than a match for Team Batman and that's before you add in the Mid Level heroes)

@Shawnbabysaid:

Here's why Batman and friends can't do it:

1) Team Batman would have their hands full just dealing with the Street Level Avengers (Captain America, Wolverine, Black Panther, Iron Fist, Daredevil, etc.)...but on top of that they also have to deal with all the Mid-Tier Superpowers (Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, Giant Man etc.) and then there are the Big Guns (Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Red Hulk, Thor,The Thing etc). Now, Even if you take the "Tower of Babel" incident in to account (Which you really shouldn't for reasons I've already explained)...you have to remember Batman spent years coming up with those plans and a few of the JLA ( Superman, MM) had known weaknesses for him to exploit and yet another one (Kyle) straight out told Batman exactly what he could do to neutralize him. None of the Avengers have such obvious weaknesses and none of them are just going to walk up to Batman and tell him what he needs to do to beat them...and there's a lot more Avengers to Neutralize and a lot less time to do it. Even if Team Bats some how manages to take all the Big Guns out of play....They still get Stomped by the rest (The Street Level Team alone should be more than a match for Team Batman and that's before you add in the Mid Level heroes)

@Shawnbaby

Exactly. And T'Challa will def have a nasty suprise for Bruce and the kids if they try anything as he ALWAYS holds back some type of secret about his capabilities (just part of his character). I think he could figure out that Daredevil was blind even if he didn't tell him. Yeah, I know DD/Batman ain't canon but I could still see him deducing that Matt is blind.

That said..DD is probably the weakest one. So neutralizing him doesn't help. There's really no way to neutralize BP and Cap, Ironfist short of some type of gas. BP's suit will protect him tho. Good luck sneaking up on Ironfist as he was able to hear sweat rolling down someone's face and he can sense the prescence of people.

And unless they gas Doc Strange or what not, they have zero chance of taking him out with ANYTHING they create. Likewise with Thor who you can't really gas..so unless they drug him like Masters of Evil did Hercules back in the day..I don't see them taking him. Red Hulk, they could find a way to neutralize.

:

@Lone_Wolf_and_Cub said:

Avengers with ease, an Bats with prep is the most overated thing on this site.

I agree

@soaringturkeys: LOL@ dudes who have worked togther for years turning on each because of Batman who, by appearance, alone is untrustworthy. This isn't the Teen Titans, breh. These are by and large individuals with as much willpower as Batman. And a few of them are smarter then Bats as well.

Even if he tries to make Black Panther a scapegoat (as he is obviously the easiest target), it won't work. BP is going to be the most skeptical of Batman.

@DaAwesome2 said:

@soaringturkeys: LOL@ dudes who have worked togther for years turning on each because of Batman who, by appearance, alone is untrustworthy. This isn't the Teen Titans, breh. These are by and large individuals with as much willpower as Batman. And a few of them are smarter then Bats as well.

Even if he tries to make Black Panther a scapegoat (as he is obviously the easiest target), it won't work. BP is going to be the most skeptical of Batman.

are you kidding me? I can literally pull out nearly every comic that shows that they will ultimately break down.

They are a team yes, but they don't trust each other more for it. Just look at AvX, just look at Dark Reign, just look at Secret Invasion. Just look at how much they helped/ betrayed Black Panther when he asked for help in Doom Wars. Didn't they throw the hulk into another planet? Just look at Cap and Iron Man. Just look at Civil War!!

Don't be ridiculous.

There is no real trust within Avengers.

I feel like you are all suggesting that they are taking on the Avengers head on? It will be massive stealth, all completely separated from eachother. Batman would'nt have it any other way. Peter Parker has made a device and put it on Iron Man with out his suit picking it up...... Obviously they would end Hulk when he is Banner, all the street levelers with normal things that take out normal people. Including Tony. Or better yet, when not lethal freaking inject all of the humans???

The absolute only thing that sways this in my opinion is that it's 52, and Thor. because of Thor, the Avengers win.

@soaringturkeys:

Hulk wasn't an Avenger. That was the Illumanti who removed him from Earth.

Dark Reign was Osborn's Avengers. Of course they're dysfunctional. Most of them are psychos. They didn't betray BP during Doom Wars. They didn't help because they had no official sanction to do so. Even Cyclops didn't "officially" get the X-men involved.

The seasoned members also don't take things at face value. They investigate. You got the world's best spy and 2 of the smartest people on Earth and one of the shrewdest. Bat team doesn't have a chance. Deal with it.

Pretty sure the OP meant, in the event of this plan succeeding could they do it. So saying that BP and Iron Man suspect them, and won't be caught off guard is pointless.

@iamthewolf88:

Yeah, that's nice..but this isn't like infiltrating SHIELD.

Why are all of you not taking into account the Avengers being in character? Which for BP means..he ain't trusting Batman and will be studying him. Ironman will, as well. There's nothing instantly likeable about Batman. If this was some Captain America or Superman type, they might be more apt to let down their guard. And they have to take out Strange in one shot or they're goners. The fact that these he will only have worked with these dudes for 1 year, very few of them have weaknesses, many of them are plotters themselves is too much to overcome. If it was the JLA then this would be more fair. But Bat team has no chance.

@DaAwesome2 said:

@soaringturkeys:

Hulk wasn't an Avenger. That was the Illumanti who removed him from Earth.

Dark Reign was Osborn's Avengers. Of course they're dysfunctional. Most of them are psychos. They didn't betray BP during Doom Wars. They didn't help because they had no official sanction to do so. Even Cyclops didn't "officially" get the X-men involved.

The seasoned members also don't take things at face value. They investigate. You got the world's best spy and 2 of the smartest people on Earth and one of the shrewdest. Bat team doesn't have a chance. Deal with it.

Hulk has been an avenger maybe not at that time but they have worked together. The point is, you suggested that they would all function under the premise that they've been working together for a long time. You brought up the point that it's out of their character to turn against each other because they worked together for years.

Which is a false assumption as I proved in nearly every single account. There is no real trust in the avengers. [Bringing up Xmen is also stupid because I never once stated anything about the X-men. You did. That shows great character trait on X-Men. Iron Man even said, and i haven't read this comic in ages, something on the lines of you haven't proven yourself trustworthy lately. Even Black Panther was stunned with that comment since he's saved Americas ass countless of times.

Also bringing up the point of "batman not having a chance. Deal with it' is ridiculous because that was never part of your argument. The point of the rebuttle was as stated. You claiming that it is against their character to turn against each other.

Which is totally and utterly false.

So sorry. Deal with yourself being wrong.

Avengers.

Bats can observe all he wants, he's a bit outclassed here.

Tony's always changing his tech, and as for the idea of Bat's replicating it...well...no. Batman has never displayed that kind of technical prowess.

Hulk and Thor there isn't much Batman has ever done in the way of prep that points to him beating these two. Plus there's Nova, and

Then there's a host of street levelers to oppose the Bat family as well. Captain America, Black Panther, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Spider Man, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Daredevil, and so much more.

Then there's Miss Marvel, Noh-Varr, Red Hulk, Thing, Doctor Strange, etc. etc.

Realistically 1 year is just not enough time.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@soaringturkeys:

X-men were part of Doomwars so it's def valid to bring up the X-men. You mentioned the Avengers turned their backs on BP which isn't true. I only brought up X-men as "technically" they turned their backs on him too.

Do the Avengers operate like JLA with complete trust? Absolutely not. We agree on that. Could Batman plant seeds of dissension? Nope. Several of them won't trust him from jump.

I don't think I ever indicated who I thought would win. So yeah..lemme make my stance clear on this. Avengers win. If Batman had the JLA and 1 yr prep. I would like his chances. But against this team, with these spys, tacticians, geniuses, powerhouses..He's not enough.If he had someone like Reed Richards/Doc Doom helping..maybe. But the Bat fam just ain't good enough against this team. It is what it is..

@Floopay said:

Avengers.

Bats can observe all he wants, he's a bit outclassed here.

Tony's always changing his tech, and as for the idea of Bat's replicating it...well...no. Batman has never displayed that kind of technical prowess.

Hulk and Thor there isn't much Batman has ever done in the way of prep that points to him beating these two. Plus there's Nova, and

Then there's a host of street levelers to oppose the Bat family as well. Captain America, Black Panther, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Spider Man, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Daredevil, and so much more.

Then there's Miss Marvel, Noh-Varr, Red Hulk, Thing, Doctor Strange, etc. etc.

Realistically 1 year is just not enough time.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@DaAwesome2 said:

@soaringturkeys:

X-men were part of Doomwars so it's def valid to bring up the X-men. You mentioned the Avengers turned their backs on BP which isn't true. I only brought up X-men as "technically" they turned their backs on him too.

Do the Avengers operate like JLA with complete trust? Absolutely not. We agree on that. Could Batman plant seeds of dissension? Nope. Several of them won't trust him from jump.

I don't think I ever indicated who I thought would win. So yeah..lemme make my stance clear on this. Avengers win. If Batman had the JLA and 1 yr prep. I would like his chances. But against this team, with these spys, tacticians, geniuses, powerhouses..He's not enough.If he had someone like Reed Richards/Doc Doom helping..maybe. But the Bat fam just ain't good enough against this team. It is what it is..

These

@DaAwesome2 said:

@soaringturkeys:

X-men were part of Doomwars so it's def valid to bring up the X-men. You mentioned the Avengers turned their backs on BP which isn't true. I only brought up X-men as "technically" they turned their backs on him too.

Do the Avengers operate like JLA with complete trust? Absolutely not. We agree on that. Could Batman plant seeds of dissension? Nope. Several of them won't trust him from jump.

I don't think I ever indicated who I thought would win. So yeah..lemme make my stance clear on this. Avengers win. If Batman had the JLA and 1 yr prep. I would like his chances. But against this team, with these spys, tacticians, geniuses, powerhouses..He's not enough.If he had someone like Reed Richards/Doc Doom helping..maybe. But the Bat fam just ain't good enough against this team. It is what it is..

They've betrayed each other for far far less. They've been tricked and convinced even by their own enemies that they dn't trust. They've fought and nearly tried to kill each other for a piece of paper. So I'm struggling to see why Batman of all people couldn't come up with a plan himself especially since enemies that they don't trust could do the same thing.

X men also technically didn't turn their backs on him. But that's an argument of semantics. Yes they were part of Doom wars but X men and Avengers are different teams. X men helped. Avengers didn't. In fact bringing them up to the argument works against your cause. Iron man even specifically said that he doesn't trust Black Panther while the mutants all fought alongside. And yes Avengers have on many occasions turned their back on BP. They've turned their back on each other so many times it's not even funny.

and yes you did indicate who you thought would win

Bat team doesn't have a chance. Deal with it.

You've made your point clear and as previously stated. It wasn't the point of your rebuttal.

For those using the manipulation angle. Getting them to turn on one another. Are you able to show me instances where someone whom the Avengers just met manipulated them into turning on one another? Preferrably an Aengers team that had at least 3 of the following members, Cap, Iron Man, BP, Widow and Hank being manipulated.

@soaringturkeys:

LOL..I thought you were sayin' that I didn't indicate who I thought would win. Oops.

What was the piece of paper they attempted to kill one another for. I don't recall them betraying one another for much less. BP's first loyalty is to Wakanda. So I don't know if that's minor. I don't know if you can call the Civil War betrayal as much as them being at an impasse with no middle ground. Don't their enemies have more initimate knowledge of them than Batman would have within a year tho?

~le year bump

@tohoma: Ha spite! Avengers god stomp! @JediXMan

the avengers beat the tar out of him and the whole family. after a year of working with batman they will know that he is a borderline paranoid lunatic. he will be prepping for them, but after a year they will know him inside and out as well. him working for them a year actually hurts him. it will take away his element of surprise. bat's prep also won't be anything they haven't faced before anywayl

Not a fair fight try this

Thor is easily outsmarted

Iron Man and Thor solo, and Red Hulk and it isn't even a contest.

I can't think of even a little reason the Bats could have for a win

EXACTLY. There's no cute backdoor to Thor's powers. Even with a year of prep there isn't a chance for them to impact Thor short of bringing Superman over as well.

@charlieboy: Batman isn't the only one smart one on the team, most of them are tech geniuses and have mastered all martial arts making them a force to be reckoned with. Thor is a problem

When i clicked this i thought for sure the avengers would at least be of the same tier somewhat you can't just add prep and it change everything. The only way i could see him winning is if he essentially stops being batman and does things he would never do like using pym particles on everyone and shrinking everyone. I do think that the bat family is adept enough to steal the things they'd need for a fight like this without getting caught seems like a most of the time in comics heroes only figure things out when its too late. However I wouldn't count winning in a way like that a valid win for batman in the same way that i don't count deadpool versus the marvel universe as saying that deadpool can resonably kill them all. Either way Avengers should definitely win there's more of them to take out and some of them can't reasonably be taken out.