The 4th Host of Celestials Vs. The Vishanti

(The 4th Host + The Eternals) VS. (The Vishanti and Dr. Strange)
 
 
Imagine a scenario: Some powerful, malevolent entity manipulated events in the past so as to make the Celestials deem humanity to be unfit during the final events of the 4th Host.
 
Dr. Strange, through the Orb of Agamotto, was witness to these events after sensing the evil presence. Dr. Strange pleads to Oshtor, Agamotto, and Hoggoth for assistance, and claims that he will only offer assistance to the Vishanti in their upcoming conflict with the Trinity of Ashes if they help him save earth. The Vishanti accept the terms of the agreement, and they set off to stop the judgement of the 4th Host. Aware of the threat to their space gods, the Eternals take up arms to battle Strange and the Vishanti.
  
Who wins here? Please post evidence or at least explain your opinions here.  
 
 
The Damn 4th Host 

If the Vishanti are backing strange he could probably take out like 75% and then get overwhelemed. Their are so many Eternals and just one strange.....

The Celestials can't have Scathan seeing it's only the 4th Hosts So the Vishanti will win. They can beat the Trinity of Ashes too, but they will be harder.

i haven't seen anything which suggest a Celestial has the power to destroy a universe with their sheer power alone.. while the Vishanti as described capable of destroying a universe with the release of macro-cosmic energies released upon their battle with Slorioth..

though, but i'll take the Vishanti..

I'm still going with the Celestials here.
 
They had Oshtur's (Leader of the Vishanti) sister (Gaea) begging on her knees to leave them in peace after they decimated the the Destroyer which had the combined power of the Earth sky-fathers, Odin himself and the Asgardian race packed into it.
 
I know Gaea + Sky-fathers < Vishanti but the way the Celestials brushed them all off like bugs still makes me think they can take this.

@CapitolPunishment said:

I'm still going with the Celestials here. They had Oshtur's (Leader of the Vishanti) sister (Gaea) begging on her knees to leave them in peace after they decimated the the Destroyer which had the combined power of the Earth sky-fathers, Odin himself and the Asgardian race packed into it. I know Gaea + Sky-fathers < Vishanti but the way the Celestials brushed them all off like bugs still makes me think they can take this.

true that Gaea made a plea.. but i don't think she was on her knees.. all i remember is that she said that she pleas them to consider.. and that she will not stand down to watch all her efforts be destroyed by any force.. she even said that she will aid them with all her power..

also, during Inferno, Dormammu vowed to "burn" and replace the Celestials.. Doctor Strange who's consciousness was inhabiting a rat hoped to contact the Elder Goddess Gaea to defeat him as she once banished him before..

i don't think the Celestial brushed Gaea off.. she made them reconsider.. they acknowledge her words.. Gaea's peaceful nature makes her battle feats virtually impossible to see.. but she was revealed to be the true source of everything the Gods can do and have done.. Destiny during Chaos War: X-Men said that in order to defeat the Chaos King, they must call forth the most ancient spirit of the Earth itself.. the Chaos King who is equal to Eternity himself.. Gaea may be indeed the weakest of the 4 remaining Elder Gods, but she is still quite powerful..

When Agamotto appeared in New Avengers recently, he said the Vishanti were no more, without explaining it at all; they later guess that he was "cast out" for some reason and possibly lost a lot of his power. He wanted his Eye back so he could have all his power. Eventually Wolverine, empowered with the life forces of all the New Avengers plus Brother Voodoo and Damian Hellstrom fights Agamotto on his own plane. Brother Voodoo's brother's ghost joins in. They do pretty well against him. Brother Voodoo joins them on Agamotto's plane, with the Eye, and finally beats Agomotto, apparently dying himself as well. Honestly the whole thing was dumb because they never really explained why Agamotto was thrown out of the Vishanti, or if the rest of the Vishanti lost their power too.

I tend to take this whole episode as another example of Bendis not knowing a lot about the characters, not caring about continuity, and lowballing the powers of major entities. But if that's really Agamotto's power level--being beaten in his own realm by a few earth sorcerers, even if he was stripped of some of his powers--then I would have to give this to the 4th host.

But since I don't really believe this is representative of the Vishanti's power levels (I think their stalemating of Shuma-Gorath is a better example) then I'd give it to the Vishanti.

Those Celestials are very mysterious though. I mean, has anyone besides PR Beyonder actually beaten a Celestial outright?

@tron_bonne said:

The Celestials can't have Scathan seeing it's only the 4th Hosts So the Vishanti will win. They can beat the Trinity of Ashes too, but they will be harder.

@Owie said:

When Agamotto appeared in New Avengers recently, he said the Vishanti were no more, without explaining it at all; they later guess that he was "cast out" for some reason and possibly lost a lot of his power. He wanted his Eye back so he could have all his power. Eventually Wolverine, empowered with the life forces of all the New Avengers plus Brother Voodoo and Damian Hellstrom fights Agamotto on his own plane. Brother Voodoo's brother's ghost joins in. They do pretty well against him. Brother Voodoo joins them on Agamotto's plane, with the Eye, and finally beats Agomotto, apparently dying himself as well. Honestly the whole thing was dumb because they never really explained why Agamotto was thrown out of the Vishanti, or if the rest of the Vishanti lost their power too.

I tend to take this whole episode as another example of Bendis not knowing a lot about the characters, not caring about continuity, and lowballing the powers of major entities. But if that's really Agamotto's power level--being beaten in his own realm by a few earth sorcerers, even if he was stripped of some of his powers--then I would have to give this to the 4th host.

But since I don't really believe this is representative of the Vishanti's power levels (I think their stalemating of Shuma-Gorath is a better example) then I'd give it to the Vishanti.

Those Celestials are very mysterious though. I mean, has anyone besides PR Beyonder actually beaten a Celestial outright?

PR Beyonder and thanos with HOTU, that's it man.

Celestials win.

@Killemall said:

@tron_bonne said:

The Celestials can't have Scathan seeing it's only the 4th Hosts So the Vishanti will win. They can beat the Trinity of Ashes too, but they will be harder.

@Owie said:

When Agamotto appeared in New Avengers recently, he said the Vishanti were no more, without explaining it at all; they later guess that he was "cast out" for some reason and possibly lost a lot of his power. He wanted his Eye back so he could have all his power. Eventually Wolverine, empowered with the life forces of all the New Avengers plus Brother Voodoo and Damian Hellstrom fights Agamotto on his own plane. Brother Voodoo's brother's ghost joins in. They do pretty well against him. Brother Voodoo joins them on Agamotto's plane, with the Eye, and finally beats Agomotto, apparently dying himself as well. Honestly the whole thing was dumb because they never really explained why Agamotto was thrown out of the Vishanti, or if the rest of the Vishanti lost their power too.

I tend to take this whole episode as another example of Bendis not knowing a lot about the characters, not caring about continuity, and lowballing the powers of major entities. But if that's really Agamotto's power level--being beaten in his own realm by a few earth sorcerers, even if he was stripped of some of his powers--then I would have to give this to the 4th host.

But since I don't really believe this is representative of the Vishanti's power levels (I think their stalemating of Shuma-Gorath is a better example) then I'd give it to the Vishanti.

Those Celestials are very mysterious though. I mean, has anyone besides PR Beyonder actually beaten a Celestial outright?

PR Beyonder and thanos with HOTU, that's it man.

And maybe in the battle at the Fault, fighting the Galactus engine, etc.? I can't remember if any Celestials were shown as being defeated.

@Killemall said:

PR Beyonder and thanos with HOTU, that's it man.

Thanos and Nebula both did it with the Infinity Gauntlet. But in general, yeah, it seems to take really high end cosmic powers to actually put down the Celestials.

Unfortunately, the ABC logic of high end cosmic powers is rather muddled, which can lead to confusion or disagreement. The Celestial's most defining feat is probably steamrolling Odin. In other climactic battles, Odin has been described as destroying galaxies and shaking the entire universe, and yet, none of the battles with the Celestials seem to actually be anywhere near so far-reaching, and indeed, the battle with Odin himself hardly seemed to affect anything outside the valley they were in, and even the narration only describes some of his blows as being able to destroy planets, rather than galaxies.

Still, to me it seems like the Celestials are certainly intended to be powers several orders above the skyfathers and probably comparable to Galactus. I have trouble seeing how 10 of them would lose to 3 Vishanti.

@Freefa11 said:

@Killemall said:

PR Beyonder and thanos with HOTU, that's it man.

Thanos and Nebula both did it with the Infinity Gauntlet. But in general, yeah, it seems to take really high end cosmic powers to actually put down the Celestials.

Unfortunately, the ABC logic of high end cosmic powers is rather muddled, which can lead to confusion or disagreement. The Celestial's most defining feat is probably steamrolling Odin. In other climactic battles, Odin has been described as destroying galaxies and shaking the entire universe, and yet, none of the battles with the Celestials seem to actually be anywhere near so far-reaching, and indeed, the battle with Odin himself hardly seemed to affect anything outside the valley they were in, and even the narration only describes some of his blows as being able to destroy planets, rather than galaxies.

Still, to me it seems like the Celestials are certainly intended to be powers several orders above the skyfathers and probably comparable to Galactus. I have trouble seeing how 10 of them would lose to 3 Vishanti.

Just another Odin-power-inconsistency I was thinking about today, in regard to Fear Itself--he's supposedly a galaxy-buster or world-creator, but he needs a whole army, with a crazy magical-munitions weaponry, to destroy the people off earth?! Remember, he's not planning on using this army to destroy the bad guys, just the humans? Theoretically, shouldn't he be able to do that all with a wave of his hand?

No tiamut? Celesials are banged

@Freefa11 said:

@Killemall said:

PR Beyonder and thanos with HOTU, that's it man.

Thanos and Nebula both did it with the Infinity Gauntlet. But in general, yeah, it seems to take really high end cosmic powers to actually put down the Celestials.

Unfortunately, the ABC logic of high end cosmic powers is rather muddled, which can lead to confusion or disagreement. The Celestial's most defining feat is probably steamrolling Odin. In other climactic battles, Odin has been described as destroying galaxies and shaking the entire universe, and yet, none of the battles with the Celestials seem to actually be anywhere near so far-reaching, and indeed, the battle with Odin himself hardly seemed to affect anything outside the valley they were in, and even the narration only describes some of his blows as being able to destroy planets, rather than galaxies.

Still, to me it seems like the Celestials are certainly intended to be powers several orders above the skyfathers and probably comparable to Galactus. I have trouble seeing how 10 of them would lose to 3 Vishanti.

TOTALLY AGREE!! The last line says it all :)

The Vishanti.

Looks like it got split alittle here as far as opinions. 
 
I doubt either side is getting steamrolled, and I doubt even the writers of the different Eternals and Dr. Strange stories would come to the same conclusion if you separated them all and asked who'd win... 
 
Guess that's what I get for doing a battle with two very ambiguously powered factions. 
 
If anyone has any more means to compare the two sides please post evidence...and off topic, in which comic does this Dr. Strange /Dr. Doom crossover happen in? 
 

@fondofpacman said:

Looks like it got split alittle here as far as opinions.

I doubt either side is getting steamrolled, and I doubt even the writers of the different Eternals and Dr. Strange stories would come to the same conclusion if you separated them all and asked who'd win...

Guess that's what I get for doing a battle with two very ambiguously powered factions.

If anyone has any more means to compare the two sides please post evidence...and off topic, in which comic does this Dr. Strange /Dr. Doom crossover happen in?

It's from the Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom graphic novel, "Triumph and Torment," from 1989. It basically describes that the official title of Sorceror Supreme is officially given by the Vishanti, and that only happens in a certain contest every hundred years. So Strange had been calling himself the Sorceror Supreme for a long time without officially being it. So he goes through this trial to get the offiicial title. Doom also wants to get it, of course, and does very well, but loses. The winner has to grant a boon, so Strange has to help Doom try to get his mother's soul. Ultimately, she ends up ascending to "heaven." Tron Bonne's description is a little inaccurate.

@tron_bonne:  Thanks, but I was asking for the issue if you know it.   And back to the battle, can anyone list any big classic Vishanti feats?

@tron_bonne said:

@Owie: Going by memory.

sure, I know how that is! I just happened to have it sitting near me. I must have misremembered three or four things so far just in the past week on here myself!

@fondofpacman said:

@Owie: Well thanks guys, if i ever see that graphic novel I'll snag it. So I guess if this thread is slowing down, most people seem to give this one to the Vishanti, and I'd have to agree since they only face the 4th Host Celestials. Although, I doubt the Vishanti could take all the 616 Celestials together...Doom + IG + Beyonder's power barelly squeaked by a win against then i think, and the Vishanti aren't close to IG lvl. I feel like the Celestials get exponentially more unpredictable and capable depending on how many of them you're facing, almost like separate parts of some device. They all have their own specialties and are constantly (though very slowly) growing in number. And although alot of people hate the guy, Scathan's still a reminder that Celestials as a cosmic race, on whatever power level you'd generally classify them to be, must have some potential to ascend to power levels that are respected by even the top tiers of the omniverse...although i consider both the Doom What If and Protege/Scathan sagas to be in comics that are too damn new to be considered cannonical...for me...I like my 60's to mid 80's era comics.

I'm with you on the 60s to 80s comics. I think the most interesting thing about the Celestials is that they, like the Stranger, are some of the only really, really powerful entities that don't have an official, preordained role in the universe--other than the one they made for themselves. There's a fair number of people who believe that an average Celestial is as powerful as Galactus. Given how many of them there are, that is an amazingly powerful force altogether. Everything else on that power level has something to do with the universe's mechanics or abstractions.

Anyway, in terms of the Vishanti's best feats, I don't know myself, but according to their entry, they've done well against Galactus and Shuma-Gorath. So they're pretty powerful. I'm not an expert on the Elder gods though. I like the ambiguity of this battle.

Anyway, the Vishanti has this. 

bump again...last one

hmmm, vishanti...together those 3 guys are omniscient, and they can straight up fight shuma so they've got some massive power at their hands too. Think with massive (near trans-infinite) power and the addition of unlimited knowledge, they should be able to mop the floor with just one universe of celestials, unless im missing something.

The Vishianti are Principalities. They are more than a match for the 4th Host.

The Vishianti are Principalities. They are more than a match for the 4th Host.

I give it to the Fourth Host on numbers. Then again, I have a high opinion of Celestials.

@MarvelRulesTheWorld: Interesting stuff on the principalities, I too consider them to be just below the abstracts (although there's one guy in my "A Mindless One vs. Hulk" thread who swears that they're above the abstracts somehow). I think people get confused by seeing Eternity getting humiliated by guys like Dormammu, Thanos, and even Nightmare so often that it leads people to think that he, and the other abstracts, must not be at the top of the foodchain...but people need to understand that he usually only loses to high powered guys who have lots of prep and strike first, also Marvel is notorious for bringing in new writers who crap over what's been established by the guys who originally created these characters. However, remember that the Vishanti are 3 principalities, and they get the added bonus of being omniscient when they're together, and I don't think it's any coincidence u never see lose any battles in any comics, Dr. Strange uses them as his main source of power for a reason.

@The_Last_Son_of_Czarnia: Hmm, but the 4th Host doesn't represent the ideal combination of celestials, and the 616 dimension doesn't possess too many freak celestials like Scathan as far as i know. Glad to see there's still people who think the 4th Host might stand a chance, I thought this was an cool battle idea and I'm glad there's still alittle activity here.

A cosmic cube was able to banish a powerful Elder God Set (although it probably got drained in the process) back to his realm . And this happened AFTER Spider Man (accidently used ) the cosmic cube to shatter all of the Serpent Crowns . And in Kubik's own words , "A single Celestial possesses power several orders of magnitude beyond our own" . That means a single Celestial is hundreds if not thousands or even millions of times as powerful as a cosmic cube . If it was in their respective realms , the Vishanti(each being a powerful Elder God level being) definitely have some hope . But in the mainstream universe ? I doubt they could even take on a single Celestial , let alone an entire host .

So , winner is(via total pwnage) : "The Damn 4th Host".

The 4th host sucks! Use the second host but current iteration of everybody so at least the Celestials can put in work.

I'm finding myself leaning more towards the Celestials now than I had before. They are pretty powerful, and rethinking the fight between Galactus and Agomotto, and the fact that I am now more confident that most Celestials are more powerful than most showings of Galactus, I am thinking that 10 Celestials can beat the 3 Vishanti.

@LordOfAllHumans: I agree. Principalities is just a word. What was the issue where LT said the Celestials were his children?

@Owie said:

I'm finding myself leaning more towards the Celestials now than I had before. They are pretty powerful, and rethinking the fight between Galactus and Agomotto, and the fact that I am now more confident that most Celestials are more powerful than most showings of Galactus, I am thinking that 10 Celestials can beat the 3 Vishanti.

@LordOfAllHumans: I agree. Principalities is just a word. What was the issue where LT said the Celestials were his children?

Actually it was Eternity who said that.

The 4th Host wins as cosmic is greater then magic in marvel

@cosmic_reign said:

The 4th Host wins as cosmic is greater then magic in marvel

No, the Vishanti are multiversal. Celestials are universal.

Vishanti, probably in a stomp.

The Vishanti.

I feel that separately, I doubt that Oshtur is stronger than any Celestial (judging only from Odin's performance vs the Celestials), but combined, they become a massively-powerful omniscient force, that's why Classic Strange was such a beast.

@cosmic_reign: That's just blatantly untrue.

@fondofpacman said:

I feel that separately, I doubt that Oshtur is stronger than any Celestial (judging only from Odin's performance vs the Celestials), but combined, they become a massively-powerful omniscient force, that's why Classic Strange was such a beast.

@cosmic_reign: That's just blatantly untrue.

Oshtur is more powerful than Odin by a few hundred folds. She's just about in par to Gaea, if not more powerful.

The Vishanti.

Celestials win.

Also, I think the venue has major implications on this fight.

The Vishanti is multiversal

The Celestials are universal

Also, I believe the Celestials are 6th to 7th dimensional.

The Vishanti should be around 10....

To think of the scale of this kind of power think Odin as a 3rd dimensional being.

The Vishanti is multiversal

The Celestials are universal

Also, I believe the Celestials are 6th to 7th dimensional.

The Vishanti should be around 10....

To think of the scale of this kind of power think Odin as a 3rd dimensional being.