#1 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos and Surfer

Ultimate Jean (Phoenix) and Rachel Summers (Green Phoenix)

In character.

Anything Goes.

Battle on small dead planet with many moons.

#2 Edited by JediXMan (30347 posts) - - Show Bio

Ult. Jean gets stomped here. She wasn't that powerful. If memory serves, Ultimate Silver Surfer proved a challenge, and he's not powerful in the Ultimate universe.

Rachel, however... she was fighting Galactus at one point. I need somebody to provide context on that fight.

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#3 Edited by Killemall (18556 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman: Not much of a context to Galactus fight really, a hungry Galactus fought Green Phoenix, Galactus lost, himself admitted Phoenix is more powerful because while his power decline as fight goes on her's are unlimited. Galactus however managed to mess with Rachel's mind before he left.

So apart from him being a hungry Galactus, who should still reasonably be more powerful than either of team 1, there really is no plot there.

Thats also not her only cool showing. Her fight with Nekron with anti-phoenix destroyed entire solar system.

She also unknowingly merged 2 entire universe, when her mind called out to an evil alternate version of Xavier, i am guessing attributing her 1/2 of that feat would still be reasonable.

#4 Posted by Killemall (18556 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh as per the thread i know nothing about Ultimate version of Jean, but provided Rachel is actually fighting seriously she could likely solo.

#5 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like I've seen Green Phoenix doing some crazy shiz, but I'm too distracted by that ridiculous picture.

WHY ARE THERE SPIKES ON THE COSTUME?!

On topic, I don't think Ult. Jean is very powerful.

#6 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Ult. Jean gets stomped here. She wasn't that powerful. If memory serves, Ultimate Silver Surfer proved a challenge, and he's not powerful in the Ultimate universe.

Rachel, however... she was fighting Galactus at one point. I need somebody to provide context on that fight.

Um what? Ultimate surfer did nothing to her at all.

I feel like I've seen Green Phoenix doing some crazy shiz, but I'm too distracted by that ridiculous picture.

WHY ARE THERE SPIKES ON THE COSTUME?!

On topic, I don't think Ult. Jean is very powerful.

Oh as per the thread i know nothing about Ultimate version of Jean, but provided Rachel is actually fighting seriously she could likely solo.

Holy ****!

Educate yourselves. I mean... wth.....

Telepathy

The first half of Jean's powers. she is a powerful Mutant who was very skilled with TP. When she became Phoenix, she was second to none.

1) Jean controls the fractured minds of 50+ Maddoxes.

2) Jean TP can feel like being burn alive.

3) Jean uses her TP to blind people of the X-Men's presence.

4) Uses TP to KO Wasp.

5) Jean Multitask using TP to read the minds of many workers and maids, feeding images into Iceman Brain, and calming Kitty's nerves.

6) Jean TP can receive calls as long someone thinks to reach her.

7) Jean senses the bad intentions of these Weapon X from over 3 miles away.

1-3) All these scans show Phoenix is easily a world Level Telepath who does not need Cerebro to TP across the planet.

What is also Impressive is how Jean TP can by pass people like Wolverine, Nightcralwer, and Hulk who all have heavy Telepathy Resistance.

1) Actually calms a enraged Hulk.

2) Jean by herself block the many Omega Level Psychics from detecting her team.

3-4) Jean keeps Hulk under control, no one keeps hulk under control.

5) Jean puts Wolverine in Time Out.

6-7) Jean bypass Kurts defenses.

8) Jean by passes most of Wolverine Defenses without trying.

Telekinesis

The second half of Jeans powers. Her TK has always been powerful, even when she was Marvel Girl. It wasn't till she became Phoenix that she entered a League of her own.

1) Jean Brain Pops a poor scientist.

2) TK fire that was hot enough to melt steel.

3-4) Jean uses TK to burn this Copter and cause it explode.

5) TK fire that seals up Colossus Organic Metal. Same Organic Metal that shakes of Lava.

6) Jean uses TK to fly at high speeds.

7) Jean TKs a Sentinel into pieces.

8-9) Phoenix rips through Nuclear Blast Doors.

10-11) Phoenix fissures the Earth.

Jean TK can Atomize problems.

Her best feat as Phoenix with TK is when she contains a Nuclear Meltdown and atomizes a over a mile worth of land. She atomizes the land, the plant, the nuclear reaction, and even the radiation!

Her TK is also used for Durability.

1) Phoenix shields vs Bullets. Also a Speed feat of how her Force Field is thrown up before the Ultimates can pull the triggers.

2) Phoenix tanks 5000+ Colossus hit while he was enraged.

3) Tanks a Optic Beam from the much amped Banshee drugged up Cyclopes.

4-5) Tanks a all out hit from Apocalypse who overpowers Ultimate Thing!

6) Phoenix takes a blast from a Silver searcher, beings with the power of Suns in their bodies.

It is also worth Noting her TK can breach Invisible Woman's force field, no small feat, with no problems.

Speed

You wouldn't think it, but Jean as Phoenix has insane Super speed in Travel speed and Mental speed.

1-2) Phoenix Travels from Antarctic to Florida in seconds.

1-2) Phoenix travels across the universe scanning planets at FTL speeds with her mind for Heaven. She has in a Week scan and blew through most of the Universe till its ends, and then reacted to a Silver searchers halt at those speed. she then Travels back tp Earth from the end of the Universe in 1 day.

Resurection

As Iceman noted, why should he care if he dies, she can bring him back. She did bring Warren back to life as well the rest of the lives lost in the battle vs Apocalypse.

Time Powers

She even manipulates time.

Time Stop. Nuff Said.

Here she reverses time so all the destruction and death caused by Apocalypse would be undone.

Phoenix

What is the Phoenix Force? It is in the Ultimate Universe the being that birthed the Universe and gave life to it.

It took a collection effort of the Universe to Imprison her, as she was impossible to destroy, into Earth. There she waited to a perfect vessel appeared, Jean.

Phoenix released by the Hellfire Club. She Atomizes the Club members and then with her powers bring back the dead, cured sickness, ect. Xavier nearly kills himself in a brain battle till Phoenix decided to retreat into Jean.

Phoenix battles Xavier again, she clearly has the upper hand with ease, Xavier only chance was to appeal to Jean to take control.

This is Ultimate Apocalypse. He is a being that absorbs other mutants powers and has Xavier level TP mind Control on other Mutants.

Well, he overpower everyone including the Fantastic 4, SHIELD, and even Xavier. How well does he stand vs Phoenix?

Phoenix vs Apocalypse. Phoenix spanks... hard!

Phoenix has a battle with Omega Level Cyclopes doped on Banshee. No Contest.

Weak... GTFO!

#7 Posted by Roddy010 (5233 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Damn I heard Ultimate Jean was powerful but it's nice to see her actual feats thanks for sharing.

#8 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@cadencev2: Damn I heard Ultimate Jean was powerful but it's nice to see her actual feats thanks for sharing.

No prob.

@cadencev2:

i feel bad now

Me sticking up for Ultimates is like Martin Luther King having a dream. People automaticly think everyone in Ultimate Verse is weaker than 616 counterparts. Ultimate Jean/Phoenix may not be same caliber of say Dark Phoenix, but she is a match for Phoenix 5 or Green Phoenix.

Anyway, who do you think wins.

#10 Posted by Killemall (18556 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: To be honestly i never said anything against Jean, all i said was i knew nothing about her and i honestly dont. After having seen the scans, she clearly looks the under dog of her team, coz Rachel has significantly better feats.

Also Jean actually seems concerned about other telepaths , despite her having shielded the team, and her other telepathy feat, are more or less matched by Thanos. Including the long distance communication, he has communicated with Marvel Boy, via telepathy, from Titan, when Marvel Boy was on earth. He doesnt have controlling multiple people or reading multiple people mind as feats but the rest he actually has. He has shield Gamora and Adam Warlock from Magus, a godlike being with godlike technology (not to mention Magus is the evolved version of Warlock, who himself is a telepath, not omega level though).

Travelling speed doesnt seem consequential, Surfer is much faster than her anyways.

After from the i dont see much of a feat from Jean. I am guessing, fighting properly, as long as they have anything against Time Powers (Thanos can at least teleport across time, not sure that helps), they should be able to handle Jean. Apokolips feat is cool, but Thanos has feats against Odin, Beyonder, Tyrant etc.

That being said, team 2 isnt beating Rachel. Honestly, going at her best, Rachel could very well challenge Odin.

#11 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@cadencev2: To be honestly i never said anything against Jean, all i said was i knew nothing about her and i honestly dont. After having seen the scans, she clearly looks the under dog of her team, coz Rachel has significantly better feats.

Also Jean actually seems concerned about other telepaths , despite her having shielded the team, and her other telepathy feat, are more or less matched by Thanos. Including the long distance communication, he has communicated with Marvel Boy, via telepathy, from Titan, when Marvel Boy was on earth. He doesnt have controlling multiple people or reading multiple people mind as feats but the rest he actually has. He has shield Gamora and Adam Warlock from Magus, a godlike being with godlike technology (not to mention Magus is the evolved version of Warlock, who himself is a telepath, not omega level though).

Travelling speed doesnt seem consequential, Surfer is much faster than her anyways.

After from the i dont see much of a feat from Jean. I am guessing, fighting properly, as long as they have anything against Time Powers (Thanos can at least teleport across time, not sure that helps), they should be able to handle Jean. Apokolips feat is cool, but Thanos has feats against Odin, Beyonder, Tyrant etc.

That being said, team 2 isnt beating Rachel. Honestly, going at her best, Rachel could very well challenge Odin.

Your missing major facts here.

Ultimate Jean can Stop time and turn back time with her power. Rachel has never shown that ability or power.

Ultimate Jean also is not Phoenix 24/7. In fact the Phoenix is a different personality and entity that Jean has locked up and lets out when she has too.

You also forget Jean has Atomizing Power. Thats like Molecule Manipulation on the Atomic Level.

I think the fact Phoenix it self has forced the entire Universe to team up to imprison, they could not figure at all how to destroy her, and the fact she beat down effortlessly the most powerful mutant on the planet in Apocalypse with ease, well those are not low showings.

Also I hope you not mixing Rachel Feats as Phoenix with her power boost from Beyonder to that of Normal Phoenix Rachel.

#12 Posted by Killemall (18556 posts) - - Show Bio

Your missing major facts here.

Ultimate Jean can Stop time and turn back time with her power. Rachel has never shown that ability or power.

No, no i understand that part, and i agree neither of team 1 has any defense against it. What i am however saying was, i am a bit surprised, you would normally expect Jean as Phoenix to actually show a whole lot of raw power than anyone on team 1, which does not seem to be the case.

Thats why i am saying, barring the time manipulation feat, it more or less looks like team can handle Jean.

Ultimate Jean also is not Phoenix 24/7. In fact the Phoenix is a different personality and entity that Jean has locked up and lets out when she has too.

Neither is Rachel or any Phoenix avatar in 616 for that matter. Jean called herself Phoenix, but she would only manifest Phoenix power when she was in stress.

You also forget Jean has Atomizing Power. Thats like Molecule Manipulation on the Atomic Level.


Every Phoenix avatar has molecule manipulation, and both silver surfer and Thanos has molecule manipulation, a power not as often used though. Also all i can see on the list are very minor feats when it comes to molecule manipulation, Surfer was also matter manipulating entire Baxter Bulding and areas around him, including warping space and time, in his sleep when he was having nightmare during Silver Surfer: Enslavers graphic novel. Silver Surfer in the same graphic novel, re-creates an entire city that was destroyed with matter manipulation.

I personally dont see Jean having any advantage in that field.

Do let me know if you would like to see scans.

I think the fact Phoenix it self has forced the entire Universe to team up to imprison, they could not figure at all how to destroy her, and the fact she beat down effortlessly the most powerful mutant on the planet in Apocalypse with ease, well those are not low showings.

The first part was OK, but from a pure feats perspective it doesnt look as impressive. Phoenix got attacked by 1000s of civilization and then defeated and trapped. It doesnt flesh out what Phoenix was able to do to them though thats a very underwhelming feat.

Apocalypse feat seems ok, but he doesnt really look as powerful, to translate that feat to show her superior to either one in team 1. But its entirely possible i am missing something because apart from the scans you posted i dont normally read ultimate universe.

Also I hope you not mixing Rachel Feats as Phoenix with her power boost from Beyonder to that of Normal Phoenix Rachel.

No i am not, and Rachel boost lasted only 4 issues anyways. The only feat from Rachel that is often quoted that she did with Beyonder's power is the neutron galaxy feat.

Solar System busting feat was done against Necrom, during Excalibur vol 1 50. The feat is pretty impressive given Rachel was holding back the whole time, when she decided to unleash her full power she atomized Necrom

Rachel merging 2 entire universes is from Excalibur: Weird Wars 3 Graphic novel, and given it was her powers merged with Phoenix X from another reality, she can be attributed half the feat i would think.

#13 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

No, no i understand that part, and i agree neither of team 1 has any defense against it. What i am however saying was, i am a bit surprised, you would normally expect Jean as Phoenix to actually show a whole lot of raw power than anyone on team 1, which does not seem to be the case.

Thats why i am saying, barring the time manipulation feat, it more or less looks like team can handle Jean.

Ok.

Neither is Rachel or any Phoenix avatar in 616 for that matter. Jean called herself Phoenix, but she would only manifest Phoenix power when she was in stress.

Yea, thus why Green Phoenix is able to be KO by Thor with one blast. Or Magneto able to hold off a Green Phoenix Jean.

Every Phoenix avatar has molecule manipulation, and both silver surfer and Thanos has molecule manipulation, a power not as often used though. Also all i can see on the list are very minor feats when it comes to molecule manipulation, Surfer was also matter manipulating entire Baxter Bulding and areas around him, including warping space and time, in his sleep when he was having nightmare during Silver Surfer: Enslavers graphic novel. Silver Surfer in the same graphic novel, re-creates an entire city that was destroyed with matter manipulation.

I personally dont see Jean having any advantage in that field.

Do let me know if you would like to see scans.

I believe ya, my point was Ultimate Jean does not Matter Manipulate anything really when she just Atomizes and destroys on the Atomic level. Including Radiation.

The first part was OK, but from a pure feats perspective it doesnt look as impressive. Phoenix got attacked by 1000s of civilization and then defeated and trapped. It doesnt flesh out what Phoenix was able to do to them though thats a very underwhelming feat.

Apocalypse feat seems ok, but he doesnt really look as powerful, to translate that feat to show her superior to either one in team 1. But its entirely possible i am missing something because apart from the scans you posted i dont normally read ultimate universe.

Apocalypse has total mind control over Mutants, even Xavier with a amp was metally unable to win. Apocalypse also is immune to harm as the scans show. He just gets stronger with damage, that is how he works.

Yet Phoenix destroys him. See how that is incredible? She shrugs off his mind attacks, peers into his mind, and then destroys him with damage which makes him stronger as his power set! It is a great feat of the raw power of the Phoenix. Added to this she not only reverse time, she mind wiped the planet of the event, left the memories in the X-Mens heads, and brought back to life all the dead X-men who were killed before the event.

All this in one comic.

No i am not, and Rachel boost lasted only 4 issues anyways. The only feat from Rachel that is often quoted that she did with Beyonder's power is the neutron galaxy feat.

Solar System busting feat was done against Necrom, during Excalibur vol 1 50. The feat is pretty impressive given Rachel was holding back the whole time, when she decided to unleash her full power she atomized Necrom

Rachel merging 2 entire universes is from Excalibur: Weird Wars 3 Graphic novel, and given it was her powers merged with Phoenix X from another reality, she can be attributed half the feat i would think.

Actually I think Dark phoenix did the Neutron Galaxy feat as well. Going into its center, which gravity was enough to swallow the 616 universe, and repair the Mkraan Crystal.

I think it was the Boost that gave Rachel the Telepathy reading of the whole Universe and mentally staggering Beyonder with it.

Either way Rachel as Green Phoenix is more equal to Ultimate Jean and Ultimate Jean is superior to the Phoenix 5, Dark Phoenix Emma, Cuckoo Sisters as Phoenix, and Green Phoenix Jean overall.

Definitely not the weakest Phoenix is my point.

#14 Posted by New_World_Order (13050 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh as per the thread i know nothing about Ultimate version of Jean, but provided Rachel is actually fighting seriously she could likely solo.

How exactly does Rachael solo? The only problem I see is Ulitmate Jean Grey's time manipulation.

#15 Posted by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

Ult. Jean is called a god many times in ult x men, by many people. I've never heard of Rachel, I stopped reading after ultimatum

#16 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyperviper97 said:

Ult. Jean is called a god many times in ult x men, by many people. I've never heard of Rachel, I stopped reading after ultimatum

Rachel is 616 Universe from the 80s/90s.

#17 Posted by Killemall (18556 posts) - - Show Bio

How exactly does Rachael solo? The only problem I see is Ulitmate Jean Grey's time manipulation.

As Phoenix Rachel is pretty powerful when she has to be.

The feat i like to quote is Rachel vs Necrom, where the resulting fight destroyed an entire solar system, all the while Rachel was holding back. When she let loose the power of Phoenix Necrom was overloaded and died.

We also have Rachel, in Excalibur 61, fighting and beating a hungry Galactus, who should still be more powerful than well either of team 1, or perhaps even both of them combined.

Given how Emma faired against Jean Grey, i am guessing Rachel could take Surfer, for one, out with simple telepathy. Its funny how Grant Morrision had Emma cry because she was stark helpless against Jean TP potential with the power of Phoenix.

Rachel also has few other cool feats like merging 2 universe together, in Excalibur: The Weird Wars 03, which shows her powers, granted she only did half the work.

Rachel not holding back should be more powerful than both of team 1. And we also have Phoenix X, from reality 691 fight and unleash Phoenix power that nullified Korvac from 691 reality sending him all the way back into the past at reality 616.

Phoenix and Phoenix Avatar are pretty badass at this level, its just comicvine tend to pit it against a lot more powerful being like fed Galactus, Eternity and what not, which is why Phoenix on comicvine is normally bashed.