#1 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting is the Kashyyyk Shadowlands, but there are no beasties around to pester the duelists. Can the three top Jedi of the SWTOR Order take down Tenebrous and Lumiya?

Credit to Deviantart for the picture of the Barsen'thor.

EDIT: Added Darth Vader to make it more fair. 3 on 3.

Versus

#2 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

Sith win... Tenebrous is supremely powerful.

#3 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#4 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Team 2..... overall. You should add somebody else to team 1 to balance it more.

#5 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: Okay. But who to add? Don't want to make it one-sided in favor of the Sith...

#6 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Vader? Or somebody slightly above.

#7 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: OK, Vader it is.

#8 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: LOL, you know that the pictures of the Barsen'thor and the HoT are N-canon, right? We don't have canon confirmations of their gender and size and looks and so on.

I say Lumiya is the weakest one here. Both teams can win this. I'll think about it a bit more to see who wins majority.

#9 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: I wanted to use pictures for them. And actually the Hero of Tython picture is from Wookiepedia for whatever that's worth. I prefer to have some image in my head of who is fighting. Thus, there are your physical representations of the Barsen'thor and Hero of Tython. I think the latter's fairly ambiguous if nothing else, since we don't see the Jedi's face.

#10 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@shroudofsorrow: Wookieepedia is not canon.

Regardless, the clothing is very changeable, though I do believe that was a fairly nice impression of what a Jedi Knight would look like.

#11 Edited by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@shroudofsorrow: Wookieepedia is not canon.

It has canon information doesn't it? Then again so do us fanboys, so I suppose that argument's thrown out the window.

#12 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova, how do the Jedi deal with Tenebrous? Barensenthor doesn't have many feats. Lumiya can kill her. Hero of Tython, Tenebrous should be able to deal with. Vader should be able to kill Satele after a lengthy fight.

#13 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

@ShootingNova, how do the Jedi deal with Tenebrous? Barensenthor doesn't have many feats. Lumiya can kill her. Hero of Tython, Tenebrous should be able to deal with. Vader should be able to kill Satele after a lengthy fight.

It's not a matter of he/her. With Vader in, the Sith team win now. Personally, I say Satele defeats Vader. Hero of Tython or Satele can defeat Lumiya.

So prior to Vader:

Barsen'thor and Hero kill fight Tenebrous and win (since we have decided Vitiate > Tenebrous, and Hero > Vitiate, as it seems) and Satele defeats Lumiya.

With Vader, Barsen'thor can hold Vader for some time while Satele fights Lumiya, and Hero fights Tenebrous. Hero wins, Satele wins, and Barsen'thor loses, but the other two then kill Vader. But then again, there's other ways of the battle.

#14 Posted by shroudofsorrow (3163 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: So essentially it can still go either way.

#15 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: I thought Tenebrous was 4 and Vitiate 5?

#16 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

@ShootingNova: I thought Tenebrous was 4 and Vitiate 5?

No, it was Vitiate, then Tenebrous.

@shroudofsorrow said:

@ShootingNova: So essentially it can still go either way.

Generally leaning towards the Sith team, but yes.

#17 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: I just looked it up on the Thread, and Silver and JXM were'nt sure whether toplace Tenebrous over or under Vitiate

#18 Edited by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: Yeah, I was referring to the list originally. Tenebrous stomps flat-out in physical prowess, but Vitiate is more powerful in Force power.

#19 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova: The difference there though, is that Tenebrous isn't a failure at Force abilities.

While he may not be stronger inthe Force than Vitiate. He should be able to defned well enough to get close and kill the Emperor.

#20 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: That depends. Even then, the Emperor could simply use Essence Transfer, and Tenebrous can't defeat him then. Vitiate can still defeat Tenebrous, not with ease but with certainty, in Force Power.

#21 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, forgot about Essence Transfer haha. Suppose Vitiate would win then.

#22 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio

Funny part is, Vitiate can't kill Tenebrous either. Tenebrous had a preset ritual setup relating to his maxi-chlorians. When he dies, his spirit will bond to his remaining maxi-chlorians while his standard midi-chlorians transcend into the Force. I severely doubt Vitiate would ever notice this transaction either considering Plagueis, who made it his specialty in the realms of his Force perception to monitor the activity of midi-chlorians, never saw that Tenebrous' spirit still survived in a few lasting midi-chlorians. So if Tenebrous dies, he would survive too. Whereas, unless Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to possess someone that he has not ingrained a connection with, his Essence will descend into Chaos. It is my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Vitiate can only possess those who serve him because he previous developed links with them. Considering that none of them are in this battle, Vitiate has nowhere to go. He certainly will not be possessing Tenebrous given his will and power. And honestly, with the fact that Tenebrous has vastly transcendent combat, physical, and direct power feats, I would favor him. Of course, Vitiate could win if he mind controlled Tenebrous before the latter killed him, but I find that unlikely. Tenebrous and Plagueis had a monumental store of Sith tomes, annuls, and lore, and Plagueis evinced knowledge of Vitiate's exploits. Tenebrous should be familiar with Vitiate and would recognize his talents as a threat to be avoided. Under that scenario, and in accordance with the fact that Tenebrous enjoys a fight, he would be quick to act. With his massively greater speed, he would kill Vitiate before Vitiate can mind control him, and assuming my understanding of Vitiate's Essence Transfer is correct (and thus far, I have never seen any evidence to the contrary), Vitiate would be destroyed without a host.

#23 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: Actually, Vitiate still has his original body. It's kept on.... Dromund Kaas? But he can travel to it. His essence has been shown to flee and travel as well.

#24 Edited by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova: So Vitiate will BFR himself to a body on another planet, which was not provided in the OP, to survive his fight with Tenebrous... 
 
Fairly certain battle forum rules would consider that a loss.
#25 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467: No, not exactly. It seemed more like..... his essence was somehow clinging to the physical world, in some way, and then he was "resting". Even so, he was still projecting TP across the galaxy.

"He's gone. Everybody knows that. But his voice... still in my head. Can't sleep. Nothing makes sense. The Emperor is dead. Why is he still talking?"

-- Taken from The Old Republic

Also, to your previous post about Tenebrous surviving, he was kind of helpless in that state, being reversed in time over and over again.

#26 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said:

@Silver2467: No, not exactly. It seemed more like..... his essence was somehow clinging to the physical world, in some way, and then he was "resting". Even so, he was still projecting TP across the galaxy.

"He's gone. Everybody knows that. But his voice... still in my head. Can't sleep. Nothing makes sense. The Emperor is dead. Why is he still talking?"

-- Taken from The Old Republic

Honestly, the circumstances of all of this are too nebulous and convoluted for me to be really convinced of any of this. Unless you or someone else can definitively show me Vitiate's ability to project his Essence without outside aid and possess someone without preparing them as vessels, I am inclined not to draw a conclusive opinion. 
 
Thanks for the info though. 
 

Also, to your previous post about Tenebrous surviving, he was kind of helpless in that state, being reversed in time over and over again.

Not relevant. Tenebrous still existed, and he was able to bond his maxi-chlorians with whoever he wanted, meaning he could do so with Vitiate. Unless Vitiate has displayed midi-chlorian manipulation (or even the Force perception to notice midi-chlorian activity) and displayed the ability to manipulate disembodied Essences (no, the Nathema ritual is not proof, due to is prep requirements and the conjecture of his consuming spirits), then Vitiate can only stalemate him.
#27 Posted by ShootingNova (17081 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver2467 said:

Honestly, the circumstances of all of this are too nebulous and convoluted for me to be really convinced of any of this. Unless you or someone else can definitively show me Vitiate's ability to project his Essence without outside aid and possess someone without preparing them as vessels, I am inclined not to draw a conclusive opinion.

Hmm..... We don't know for sure if he actually prepared the Voice, though if I hazarded a guess I would say his Hand might have prepared it beforehand.

That also reminds me, Vitiate has superior TP. He has used his "spell" to mind control the Emperor's Hand, the Emperor's Voice (obviously), and the Imperial Guard (which, I believe, is legions) and possibly on the Emperor's Wrath. The Sith Warrior protagonist of TOR is hinted to meet the Emperor in the future, so said mind control obviously hasn't had effect on him yet. Yet I find it funny how the Emperor asked his Voice to kill him earlier on and he/she never hesitated, despite the fact that anybody in the Empire was afraid of the Emperor to a very deep extent, some to the point of worshipping him as an all-powerful, all-knowing god. It's possible the Emperor briefly mind controlled him/her to make him/her kill the Emperor without hesitation, though this could very well be not the case.

Thanks for the info though.

No worries.

Not relevant. Tenebrous still existed, and he was able to bond his maxi-chlorians with whoever he wanted, meaning he could do so with Vitiate. Unless Vitiate has displayed midi-chlorian manipulation (or even the Force perception to notice midi-chlorian activity) and displayed the ability to manipulate disembodied Essences (no, the Nathema ritual is not proof, due to is prep requirements and the conjecture of his consuming spirits), then Vitiate can only stalemate him.

Hmm..... actually, I think this might have occurred.

The Dark Temple was where Vitiate trapped the spirits of his fallen foes, although apparently, again, there was some form of ritual(s) involved. Perhaps not. I can't log into SWTOR to check for you, I'm afraid.

The only other thing I can think of off the top of my head was when Vitiate made dealings or something with Sel-Makor, who is a disembodied essence (or something similar, absolutely no physical body). Again, using the power of Voss, Sel-Makor temporarily overpowered Vitiate or something and took control of his Voice for a brief duration. I'm not sure what it was.

#28 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@ShootingNova said: 

Hmm..... We don't know for sure if he actually prepared the Voice, though if I hazarded a guess I would say his Hand might have prepared it beforehand.

That also reminds me, Vitiate has superior TP. He has used his "spell" to mind control the Emperor's Hand, the Emperor's Voice (obviously), and the Imperial Guard (which, I believe, is legions) and possibly on the Emperor's Wrath. The Sith Warrior protagonist of TOR is hinted to meet the Emperor in the future, so said mind control obviously hasn't had effect on him yet. Yet I find it funny how the Emperor asked his Voice to kill him earlier on and he/she never hesitated, despite the fact that anybody in the Empire was afraid of the Emperor to a very deep extent, some to the point of worshipping him as an all-powerful, all-knowing god. It's possible the Emperor briefly mind controlled him/her to make him/her kill the Emperor without hesitation, though this could very well be not the case.

My problem is that much of this is mired in circumstantial issues which have either not been elucidated on, have not been elucidated on enough, or have been elucidated on but are completely unknown to me. For that reason I should probably bow out of this discussion, because I have not played TOR for myself; if I continue this conversation, I will just end up arguing from ignorance. 
 
Regarding Vitiate's TP being superior, that much should be obvious. I even noted in my initial post that Vitiate can win via TP if he can strike first. 
 

Hmm..... actually, I think this might have occurred.

The Dark Temple was where Vitiate trapped the spirits of his fallen foes, although apparently, again, there was some form of ritual(s) involved. Perhaps not. I can't log into SWTOR to check for you, I'm afraid.

The only other thing I can think of off the top of my head was when Vitiate made dealings or something with Sel-Makor, who is a disembodied essence (or something similar, absolutely no physical body). Again, using the power of Voss, Sel-Makor temporarily overpowered Vitiate or something and took control of his Voice for a brief duration. I'm not sure what it was.

As with the Transfer Essence matter, this seems somewhat ambiguous as well, but also as with the Transfer Essence matter, I haven't played TOR, which limits my ability to accurately reply to this one way or another. 
 
Again, thanks for the information.