Teen Goku vs. HST

Head-to-head I think Goku outmatches everyone here by quite a bit. His strength, speed, and hand-to-hand prowess should be more than enough to solo the protags of the HST. They would need to rely on more versatile skills like genjutsu, although in a realistic encounter, all Goku would need is for Bulma to yell out "dinner time!" and he'd snap out of it the same as when Master Roshi hypnotized him.

Goku.

Goku.

I highly doubt this. What level of speed and strength are you attempting to put Teen goku on to think he is superior in both strength and speed? Speed is one thing. But strength? And i don't think his hand to hand combat skills at that point of the series is good enough to take them on. Luffy is a ridiculously skilled combatant himself, same goes for naruto and ichigo has shit tons of experience against warriors who essentially trained and crafted their powers all their lives. Also goku wouldn't be getting out of genjutsu, especially since its at a far higher level than roshi simply hypnotizing someone. Not only that people like Bulma aren't in this fight so no dinner time for goku. Also goku will be dealing with an army of shadow clones each capable of fighting on their own and launching a huge assault, characters like Luffy charging in with a barrage of randomized attacks, while ichigo attempting to blitz and charge.

1.Well at this point in the series, Goku was actually more of a low-tier powerhouse, I believe he surpassed Luffy and Naruto's league relatively early in the series. Take General Blue for instance, a character helplessly outmatched by Goku during the early Red Ribbon Army arc, yet apparently strong enough in his own right that when Arale headbutted him all the way to Egypt, he was almost completely uninjured and simply needed a ride back to base. Goku on the other hand knocked Blue silly with just one Jan-Ken fist. Tao Pai Pai took it a step further and actually killed Blue simply by poking him with his tongue. However after training with Korin, Goku had become so powerful that Tao wasn't even able to deal damage anymore. Now I'm aware that Luffy could send his opponents across entire islands early in the series with his Gum Gum Bazooka, but as proven with Arale, General Blue would take that hit with ease, and pre-timeskip the Gum Gum Bazooka was one of Luffy's strongest moves. Now even accounting for Luffy's growth during the first half of the series, his training from Rayleigh, and then his Gears, considering Tao KILLED Blue with his TONGUE, I still don't see Luffy's best strikes being much stronger than Tao's best strikes. I mean I know Luffy improved a lot since facing Buggy, but the difference between a tongue poke and a full haymaker is probably just as large as his power improvement. Now all that said, remember that Goku barely even felt Tao's strikes.

2.Think I'm underrating Luffy? You think his training and growth was enough to surpass Tao? Well don't forget Goku's own training and growth since facing Tao, his three years of traveling the world before the 22nd Budokai, drinking the Super Holy Water, presumably getting a couple Zenkais from Piccolo, and then training with Kami. I just don't see Luffy matching him even though you know I'm a big One Piece fan, and even though I'm less versed in Naruto I don't see him keeping up either. I know nothing of Bleach however, so maybe Ichigo is the wildcard here that can sway things.

3.In terms of speed, Goku very well might have been faster than light by this point in the series. I know it sounds silly, I myself had a hard time believing it too, but all the evidence adds up, and recently I've started to become convinced myself. Here, I'll explain, all I ask is that you just keep an open mind. Let's start with after facing Tao.

Post-Sacred Water - Goku = Sub-relativistic

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After making a wish, the Dragon Balls all fly to the farthest corners of the Earth in an instant. IIRC light travels around the world seven times in one second, so a Dragon Ball is about 1/7 the speed of light, probably less since light makes a full 360 rotation while the balls don't. Regardless, after making a wish and watching as the balls began to fly away, Goku spotted his grandfather's four-star ball, and was able to jump several stories into the air and physically outrace the Dragon Ball to catch it, before the ball could even fly a few feet. So even though the balls aren't quite 1/7 the speed of light, since Goku is so much massively faster than them, Goku can physically move at about 1/7 the speed of light.

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4.On average the moon is about 240,000 miles away from Earth, while light travels 186,000 miles per second, meaning it takes light a little over 1 second to reach the moon. During the 21st Budokai, Master Roshi's Kamehameha in the anime took about 13 seconds to reach the moon from Earth, although if you watch the clip you'll see there was a lot of dramatic imagery thrown in there so it's hard to call, as the manga only took a couple panels. Regardless, it's safe to say the Kamehameha is a respectable fraction of the speed of light. During the 22nd Budokai, the Dodonpa is confirmed as the Kamehameha's counterpart, and Roshi himself admits the technique is superior to his own, which is displayed during Krillin's fight with Chiaotzu. However when Tao fired a Dodonpa at Goku, Goku was fast enough to react to it and raise his hands to block, showing Goku can react to projectiles a respectable fraction of the speed of light.

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5.During his raid against the Red Ribbon Army, Goku was able to sidestep laser beams after they were fired. Lasers in fiction often suffer from PIS and aren't as fast as they should be, which is exactly the speed of light, but with Goku it's actually consistent that he can react to the speed of light meaning these laser feats are legit.

Conclusion: After drinking the Sacred Water, Goku was powerful enough to react to the speed of light in the same way Captain America can react to a bullet. He wasn't quite fast enough to physically move at those speed yet.

22nd Tenkaichi Budokai - Goku = Exactly the speed of light

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After training for three more years, Goku's speed increased substantially. He was now fast enough to speedblitz Krillin, who was on par with Goku's strength after drinking the Sacred Water. During his fight with Tien Shinhan, Tien used the Solar Flare to try and blind Goku. However, with a head start, Goku was fast enough to keep ahead of the light and race across the stadium, grab Master Roshi's sunglasses to shield himself, and punch Tien in the gut before the light was gone. Now, Goku was just as fast as light.

6.(Skip to 12:38) Three years later at the 23ed Budokai, when Goku claims he's going to take off his weights and become much faster, Yamcha specifically states that Goku "moves at the speed of light." This is completely consistent with the speed Goku displayed by outracing Tien's Solar Flare three years ago, which is the last time Yamcha saw him. Now I should admit, keep in mind this is just a dub line. However that doesn't change the consistency of the whole thing.

23nd Tenkaichi Budokai - Goku = Faster than the speed of light

7.Now when Piccolo and Goku fully let loose in their battle, they were not only faster than the eye could see, but completely invisible with every move they made for prolonged periods of time. Meaning they were actually moving faster than the photons could reach people's eyes. You might bring up the fact that science isn't all that important in stories, which I would agree with, but there's actually a critical bit of consistency here which ties everything together. Goku and Piccolo were the first characters capable of sensing ki, and after this fight, ki sensing became a vital skill that every fighter needed to master. This is because the characters had grown so strong, light simply could no longer keep up, and even fighters of equal strength wouldn't be able to see each other. This is displayed during Yamcha's fight with a Saibaman. Gohan was actually a bit stronger than them at this point, yet he couldn't see them until Piccolo taught him to sense their ki.

8.I don't think any of this was actually purposeful on the writers' parts, Toriyama himself has admitted he doesn't pay much attention to the science. It's all just a bunch of coincidences that tie together. Toriyama probably didn't know that he was making his characters faster than light, he was just naturally progressing their power step by step, and when we really take a look at the feats, it becomes clear just how big that progression actually was.

The key in all this is the consistency of it. It is surprising, I know, but I don't see any holes in the argument.

9.Now about skill, I am well aware of how talented Luffy is, remember I'm the one who debated him in that CaV against Raiden that you like to borrow from. However just because he is skilled in his own right doesn't mean he is a match for Goku. His best combat feat is clearly matching Lucci, they were about equals with Luffy's versatility and dexterity matching Lucci's advanced training and techniques, however I myself have always viewed Lucci vs Master Roshi as a good match. Meaning Lucci is only on Roshi's level, at the 22ed Budokai Tien had surpassed Roshi, then at the 23ed Budokai Roshi straight up said that there wasn't even a point in him competing anymore after witnessing Tien's skills, yet at that same tournament Goku pointed out holes in all of Tien's best techniques and made him look like a complete amateur who needs his eyes in order to see, something which Goku had risen above by that point.

1.Take arale out of your equation and try again. Arale is a gag based character. That's all i am going to say.

2. Sigh..... none of this training is relevant in comparison to luffy. The CP9 members were practically assassins. Highly skilled combatants. Far better trained and disciplined than luffy was. Blueno one of the weaker members was creating sonic booms while kicking off the air. Luffy was keeping up with reflex alone. A further testament to how luffy doesn't need agility or precision or movement speed. The CP9 were physically strong enough to create shockwaves so potent they can slice through stone with ease from a distance with kicks alone. They can increase their durability by flexing their muscles, they can pierce through human bodies with finger strikes, and so on and so. Luffy fought these guys before and lost, after losing to them he developed an ability similar to their speed technique soru in a short period of time. And made it even far better than the CP9's soru, a far more offensive variant where not only his movements increase in speed. Creating large shock waves and sonic booms just by moving his fists in gear second. Thats how crazy high luffy's reflexes, reaction time, and movement speed and striking strength boosted. Or how about Enel another skilled warrior who had precognition and the ability to essentially read minds? Luffy hard countered that with two different strategies, one of them being an indirect attack, the other was clearing his mind and not thinking. Or Lucci who was even stronger than all the other CP9 members and even more skilled? Or how about his sniper usopp, Usopp who prepped a strategic assault on luffy and just barely survived? Luffy beating down several experienced marine soldiers at marineford? I mean. Luffy has faced people who have been training all their lives, in combat. And has either won, or gave them trouble. His level of skill and his fighting style make it extremely difficult for anyone to fight him in the first place. I am going to put down my final post from my Midnighter vs Luffy CAV

"The only people who have done well against luffy in a fight or beat him were people who were versatile or had ways of legitimately harming him, and were more skilled or more powerful than he people like Lucci, Moria, Don Krieg,(Ironically enough he was whooped by luffy easily since all he had to rely on was weapons similar to midnighter, luffy simply broke all his toys or ignored them and simply wailed on him) Zoro(The two times they fought in the anime shows this.) Jinbei, Magellean,(luffy could hurt him but the poison Magellean inflicted did far more damage than what luffy could have done with his punches) World(he was a villain in a movie, he was faster, stronger and tougher than luffy. Luffy just barely won that fight. If needed i will show you that one.) Caesar(he utilized bombardments on luffy and also used tactics such as taking away his oxygen and what not.) and so on and so on. Even those who have superior skills and strengths against luffy has failed to defeat him because of luffy's brute force AND his skill combined. Luffy is practically like Donkey Kong or Stitch. He uses shit tons of brute force, pure unrestrained brute force, while using his brain at the same time. If three guys could catch Midnighter off guard with a short group huddle break and a sneak attack, then i am sure luffy can catch him off guard and give him trouble with his own set of skills. His abilities make it so he wouldn't have to make his attacks "coordinated" his abilities are simply so dangerous and annoying that its a whole mess of trouble trying to counter. Here is a quote of the one piece wiki on luffy's fighting style(i will edit in my input on certain things):"

Fighting Style

Luffy's fighting style consists of adept hand-to-hand combat, supplemented with his physical prowess and the abilities of the Gomu Gomu no Mi. Such skill allows him to hold his own against combat specialists like Rob Lucci. Unlike Zoro or Sanji, Luffy's fighting style is completely improvised; it follows no particular code of honor, and so if necessary, he will attack women or animals, hit below the belt, attack his enemies even if they have their backs turned or are otherwise unprepared or unsuspecting, use enemies as human shields and even bite his opponents. While fighting, Luffy has been shown to be highly adept at improvising, and regularly comes up with creative counterattacks and unusual techniques to use against his enemies. This however leads both enemies and allies alike to wonder if Luffy is taking the fight seriously, especially when he comes up with ridiculous and over the top moves (like Crocodile when Luffy became Mizu Luffy), which prompts Luffy to respond that he's always serious.

When Luffy fights, he relies heavily on his instincts, which, interestingly enough, are mostly correct. Even as early as the Arlong Park Arc, after getting bitten he managed to escape with his arm still in one piece by slamming Arlong's head to loosen his jaw to get it out instead of simply pulling it. He picked out the real Mr. 3 from a bunch of wax look-a-likes on a hunch. He also destroyed Enel's "Raigo" using the gold ball as a conductor, but according to Oda he had no real idea what he was doing and was acting out of instinct. Before even learning Kenbunshoku Haki, Luffy could easily dodge any attack by relying on his instinct as shown in his battle against Enel and Rob Lucci.

During his childhood, Luffy seems to have at least become competent with a staff, as he is seen using one against a variety of opponents.

He also appears to be intelligent enough to at least understand fundamental concepts, such as rubber being a natural insulator, which might be why he did not bother ducking out of the way of Enel's lightning attacks as it would have been pointless because of his immunity. He also was able to develop new techniques such as "Gear Second" and "Gear Third", using logical concepts and knowledge of rubber and its properties.(he created the former simply by watching someone else do a similar technique.) While easily noticeable as the least strategic member of his own crew, largely due to his tendency to simply barge in head-first into battle (often without any kind of battle plan or even any knowledge of his opponent's abilities), Luffy is a highly adaptive combatant. He is constantly coming up with ways to keep ahead of his foes, either by taking advantage of his own strength and Devil Fruit powers or utilizing the opponent's own strengths (along with their weaknesses) against them. This causes even warriors long considered unbeatable to have trouble keeping up. Also, even if most of the time he acts instinctively, in some cases Luffy has shown to be intelligent enough to give some orders to his crewmates in the wake of making a strategy or simply making things go as he prefers. This usually ends up being an advantage for the crew.

After the timeskip, Luffy has demonstrated more intelligence during the heat of battle, as he was able to use Trafalgar Law's powers to his advantage and even fool a Shichibukai as cunning as Doflamingo into being swapped out so Luffy could land a blow on him.

One of Luffy's greatest advantages is that people actually tend to underestimate him. Either due to his bounty, his actions, or their own arrogance, his opponents usually take him lightly before discovering Luffy's great strength and determination. Because he is underestimated, his opponents (including the Shichibukai) tend to let their guards down, allowing Luffy to gradually learn and adapt his fighting style accordingly. However, after the global revelation of his heritage and his actions, this advantage fades away, as people takes his threat seriously based on the third-hand information.

A second advantage is his unpredictability. Due to his unique, fun-loving, battle-ready personality, and his elastic physique, opponents (and even his allies) are caught off guard by his tactics. This trait has given people the impression of him being reckless, if not insane and keeps people second guessing.

To properly show this off let me show you another one of luffy's random moves:

3. The characters were supersonic to hypersonic at that point of the series.Again going based off one feat that clearly makes no sense and may as well be WIS and PIS then applying ABC logic in order to powerscale is not a credible way to gauge characters. I have scans for the fight against tao post sacred water, goku was superior in strength and speed,(to an extent) but tao could still just barely keep up. Tao was at best mach 4-5 at the time based on actual feats he has shown himself. How could someone who is light speed not completely speed blitz him? Also one more flaw.

That kid can see what's going on. Can literally perceive that goku is getting hit by tao, and later in the fight same kid tossed goku's power pole when he saw tao swing a sword. If they were moving at relativistic speeds then how the hell wasn't he in slow motion at the time? And how did he know goku would need a weapon to combat tao's?

4. I am pretty sure you had several people tell you this, but that moon feat is clearly a gag feat and there is a glaring contradiction in the feat itself. If you want i can present this to you.

5. How convenient. But no. This feat can't be used. Because by your logic i can utilize ABC logic and powerscaling to justify Luffy is FTL and i can utilize Haku's info in the data book to justify a large string of ABC logic and powerscaling to justify naruto is massively FTL which in both cases would be utter bullshit as you and me both know.

6.There is a glaring contradiction here. First, this scene and quote isn't canon to the manga, secondly, this is inconsistent with the powerscaling of the z fighters, yamcha should be stronger than goku post sacred water, while krillin should be above goku during the last tournament against Tien. So how come they have trouble keeping up with their movements? Third and foremost. If you were to take this seriously then that means you are taking what piccolo said seriously about raditz which would be inconsistent seeing as, why would Piccolo be surprised about Raditz's light speed movement when he can supposedly move at light speed himself?

7. Moving so fast that they are practically invisible to someone's eyes? Even spiderman can do this. I have no idea why you think this is impressive.

8.Thank you for proving my point that nearly nothing in Dragon ball is credible. Thank you for proving that akira doesn't care about facts and statistics. This is also the same guy who has shown lazy writing time and time again. So thank you for finalizing this for me with said statement.

9. Exactly. Luffy's level of combat skill along with his unpredictability makes it possible for him to beat even the most skilled opponents. And also luffy has fought several gladiators in combat in the most recent arc and has even fought a former rival of Garp's. Don Chinajo. And Luffy is now in the midst of fighting someone as deadly and skilled as Donflamingo. IF you are implying that roshi is as skilled and as experienced as either of those two, then i am willing to do a CAV regarding Donflamingo against Roshi. Not that you would know about any of this seeing as you are not even at the 2 years later part of one piece. The new world.

@princearagorn1:

Yeah, Sakura did because she's adept at chakra control. Regular fodder were knocked out, so your statement is already an exaggeration.