Teen Goku vs. HST

  • 59 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for loumast
loumast

1025

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

So, Teen Goku (EOS DB) against Naruto with his powers while fighting with Sasuke, Dangai Ichigo and Current Luffy. I refrain from using current Ichigo due to him being rather... featless, despite this version more than likely being stronger than Dangai. Goku gets his powerpole whereas everyone else has standard gear. (Apologies if at this point power pole is standard for goku, but meh.)

Fight takes place on a deserted Namek. Team starts 300 feet from Goku.

To get this out of the way... all attacks will work as intended even if the universe's energies do not match up. perfect example, genjutsu will work on everyone. In that same line of logic, soul crush from Ichigo will not work seeing as all combatats are as strong as they are. Same for emporer's haki. I will edit as needed.

Avatar image for nickzambuto
nickzambuto

29288

Forum Posts

5083

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Head-to-head I think Goku outmatches everyone here by quite a bit. His strength, speed, and hand-to-hand prowess should be more than enough to solo the protags of the HST. They would need to rely on more versatile skills like genjutsu, although in a realistic encounter, all Goku would need is for Bulma to yell out "dinner time!" and he'd snap out of it the same as when Master Roshi hypnotized him.

Avatar image for mysticmedivh
mysticmedivh

32487

Forum Posts

570

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Goku.

Avatar image for princearagorn1
PrinceAragorn1

31807

Forum Posts

53

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#4  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@nickzambuto: "although in a realistic encounter, all Goku would need is for Bulma to yell out "dinner time!" and he'd snap out of it the same as when Master Roshi hypnotized him."

Actually, any fodder from naruto is capable of resisting hypnosis far stronger than roshi's.. but a good genjutsu is capable of taking characters at these levels out, so they'll have no trouble with goku. That aside, naruto doesn't use genjutsu, nor is he randomly going to notice it is the way to win and summon the toads that do it. The other two are useless, considering this is a character above moon level..

Naruto may be able to put him down with the atomic+ dismantling rods, if goku tries to block it.

Avatar image for nickzambuto
nickzambuto

29288

Forum Posts

5083

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#5  Edited By nickzambuto

@princearagorn1 said:

@nickzambuto: "although in a realistic encounter, all Goku would need is for Bulma to yell out "dinner time!" and he'd snap out of it the same as when Master Roshi hypnotized him."

Actually, any fodder from naruto is capable of resisting hypnosis far stronger than roshi's.. but a good genjutsu is capable of taking characters at these levels out, so they'll have no trouble with goku. That aside, naruto doesn't use genjutsu, nor is he randomly going to notice it is the way to win and summon the toads that do it. The other two are useless, considering this is a character above moon level..

Naruto may be able to put him down with the atomic+ dismantling rods, if goku tries to block it.

What makes you think Roshi's hypnotism is weak when it has shown no limits besides Goku? Roshi stated that Goku would never wake up unless he gave the signal, and that it should have been impossible to resist. I mean I guess if you wanna talk about feats there aren't really any facts that clearly state Roshi's Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist was directly on par with Gengutsu, but if we're talking story and character than it's a perfectly valid way for Goku to escape the technique. Neither one of us can prove how the Good Boy Sleep SleepFist and Genjutsu compare, but these are hypothetical battles, we really can't prove ANYTHING we say because none of these characters have ever met in an official story, so to me, the way Goku broke out of Roshi's hypnotism should be a perfectly valid tactic to defend himself here.

Naruto is basically Krillin in this scenario, he has a way to potentially defeat the opponent infinitely stronger than him, but he's far too outclassed for it to actually work.

Avatar image for princearagorn1
PrinceAragorn1

31807

Forum Posts

53

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@nickzambuto: "What makes you think Roshi's hypnotism is weak when it has shown no limits besides Goku? Roshi stated that Goku would never wake up unless he gave the signal, and that it should have been impossible to resist. I mean I guess if you wanna talk about feats there aren't really any facts that clearly state Roshi's Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist was directly on par with Gengutsu, but if we're talking story and character than it's a perfectly valid way for Goku to escape the technique. Neither one of us can prove how the Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist and Genjutsu compare, but these are hypothetical battles, we really can't prove ANYTHING we say because none of these characters have ever met in an official story, so to me, the way Goku broke out of Roshi's hypnotism should be a perfectly valid tactic to defend himself here."

Even kid sakura is capable of resisting hypnosis that put an entire stadium of people to sleep, which is much more than what roshi can accomplish. Any genjutsu that works on people at this level is leagues beyond roshi, and that's.. basically any competent genjutsu.

Avatar image for nickzambuto
nickzambuto

29288

Forum Posts

5083

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@nickzambuto: "What makes you think Roshi's hypnotism is weak when it has shown no limits besides Goku? Roshi stated that Goku would never wake up unless he gave the signal, and that it should have been impossible to resist. I mean I guess if you wanna talk about feats there aren't really any facts that clearly state Roshi's Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist was directly on par with Gengutsu, but if we're talking story and character than it's a perfectly valid way for Goku to escape the technique. Neither one of us can prove how the Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist and Genjutsu compare, but these are hypothetical battles, we really can't prove ANYTHING we say because none of these characters have ever met in an official story, so to me, the way Goku broke out of Roshi's hypnotism should be a perfectly valid tactic to defend himself here."

Even kid sakura is capable of resisting hypnosis that put an entire stadium of people to sleep, which is much more than what roshi can accomplish. Any genjutsu that works on people at this level is leagues beyond roshi, and that's.. basically any competent genjutsu.

Like I said, Roshi's hypnotism is vague, we do not know the limits and therefore it can not be compared to Genjutsu in terms of power.

Avatar image for 44orhsaj
44orhsaJ

1579

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#8  Edited By 44orhsaJ

@nickzambuto said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@nickzambuto: "What makes you think Roshi's hypnotism is weak when it has shown no limits besides Goku? Roshi stated that Goku would never wake up unless he gave the signal, and that it should have been impossible to resist. I mean I guess if you wanna talk about feats there aren't really any facts that clearly state Roshi's Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist was directly on par with Gengutsu, but if we're talking story and character than it's a perfectly valid way for Goku to escape the technique. Neither one of us can prove how the Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist and Genjutsu compare, but these are hypothetical battles, we really can't prove ANYTHING we say because none of these characters have ever met in an official story, so to me, the way Goku broke out of Roshi's hypnotism should be a perfectly valid tactic to defend himself here."

Even kid sakura is capable of resisting hypnosis that put an entire stadium of people to sleep, which is much more than what roshi can accomplish. Any genjutsu that works on people at this level is leagues beyond roshi, and that's.. basically any competent genjutsu.

Like I said, Roshi's hypnotism is vague, we do not know the limits and therefore it can not be compared to Genjutsu in terms of power.

If genjutsu users in naruto have better feats than Roshi is hypnotism is inferior until proven otherwise. I mean Itachi manipulates time and space in his genjutsu, Obito controlled the actions a perfect Jinchuriki (who was also a kage) for years and there suppose to be basically immune to genjutsu due to there tailed beast being able to snap them out of genjutsu (the only reason I use "basically" is because Obito using genjutsu on a perfect jinchuriki proves they aren't immune, thats the only instance of a perfect jinchuriki falling to genjutsu).....Regardless I can't remember naruto using genjutsu so this shouldn't be an issue.

Your using a no limits fallacy right now my friend.

Avatar image for nickzambuto
nickzambuto

29288

Forum Posts

5083

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@44orhsaj said:

@nickzambuto said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@nickzambuto: "What makes you think Roshi's hypnotism is weak when it has shown no limits besides Goku? Roshi stated that Goku would never wake up unless he gave the signal, and that it should have been impossible to resist. I mean I guess if you wanna talk about feats there aren't really any facts that clearly state Roshi's Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist was directly on par with Gengutsu, but if we're talking story and character than it's a perfectly valid way for Goku to escape the technique. Neither one of us can prove how the Good Boy Sleep Sleep Fist and Genjutsu compare, but these are hypothetical battles, we really can't prove ANYTHING we say because none of these characters have ever met in an official story, so to me, the way Goku broke out of Roshi's hypnotism should be a perfectly valid tactic to defend himself here."

Even kid sakura is capable of resisting hypnosis that put an entire stadium of people to sleep, which is much more than what roshi can accomplish. Any genjutsu that works on people at this level is leagues beyond roshi, and that's.. basically any competent genjutsu.

Like I said, Roshi's hypnotism is vague, we do not know the limits and therefore it can not be compared to Genjutsu in terms of power.

If genjutsu users in naruto have better feats than Roshi is hypnotism is inferior until proven otherwise. I mean Itachi manipulates time and space in his genjutsu, Obito controlled the actions a perfect Jinchuriki (who was also a kage) for years and there suppose to be basically immune to genjutsu due to there tailed beast being able to snap them out of genjutsu (the only reason I use "basically" is because Obito using genjutsu on a perfect jinchuriki proves they aren't immune, thats the only instance of a perfect jinchuriki falling to genjutsu).....Regardless I can't remember naruto using genjutsu so this shouldn't be an issue.

Your using a no limits fallacy right now my friend.

I understand, Roshi's hypnotism does not have feats on par with Genjutsu. I'm just saying it's a possible way for Goku to counter it, like in a crossover story between the two it would make sense for Goku to break out of Genjutsu the same way he broke out of the hypnotism. Obviously on the battle board we need to go by feats and stuff, so... Goku just blitzoneshots instead.

Avatar image for princearagorn1
PrinceAragorn1

31807

Forum Posts

53

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@nickzambuto:

"Like I said, Roshi's hypnotism is vague, we do not know the limits and therefore it can not be compared to Genjutsu in terms of power."

That pretty much ends your argument of 'resisting roshi's hypnosis means he can resist genjutsu', since you cannot prove that roshi's hypnosis is better than even the one kid shinobi can handle.

Avatar image for princearagorn1
PrinceAragorn1

31807

Forum Posts

53

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#11  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@nickzambuto:

"I'm just saying it's a possible way for Goku to counter it, like in a crossover story between the two it would make sense for Goku to break out of Genjutsu the same way he broke out of the hypnotism. Obviously on the battle board we need to go by feats and stuff, so... Goku just blitzoneshots instead."

What you're missing is, virtually anyone in naruto is capable of breaking out of hypnosis better than roshi's, but that does not help them against a competent genjutsu user at all.

Avatar image for 44orhsaj
44orhsaJ

1579

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#12  Edited By 44orhsaJ

@nickzambuto said:

I understand, Roshi's hypnotism does not have feats on par with Genjutsu. I'm just saying it's a possible way for Goku to counter it, like in a crossover story between the two it would make sense for Goku to break out of Genjutsu the same way he broke out of the hypnotism. Obviously on the battle board we need to go by feats and stuff, so... Goku just blitzoneshots instead.

I doubt goku is one shotting EOS Naruto. Naruto while not even fully powered up tanked an attack which cut the moon in half without any damage I believe. Goku by feats/scaling is limited to moon busting at this point so Naruto can tank it, I'm not going to touch speed. And I don't see it as a possible way of countering genjutsu, even ignoring feats genjutsu isn't hypnotism. Hypnotism is suppose to have a word which wakes you up from sleep so its not at all comparable....And genjutsu can do so much more than just hypnosis. IIRC Itachi put kakashi in a coma for a week-month (I forget the exact time frame) using his genjutsu. Pretty sure Kakashi needed Tsunade (who is the best healer in naruto basically) to recover from genjutsu (I can't remember but I do recall Kakashi was in critical condition after Itachi used genjutsu). If Goku gets hit with genjutsu like this he will be put in a coma just like Kakashi even if the genjutsu gets undone.....

Avatar image for kirbstomp
Kirbstomp

236

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Sasuke one shots, Ichigo one shots, or Naruto one shots.

Sasuke's susanoo slash, Ichigo mugetsu, Naruto black orbs or chakra arms

Avatar image for flashback0180
flashback0180

4630

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Sasuke one shots, Ichigo one shots, or Naruto one shots.

Sasuke's susanoo slash, Ichigo mugetsu, Naruto black orbs or chakra arms

lol

No Caption Provided

RIP HST

Avatar image for deactivated-5d6746eab553d
deactivated-5d6746eab553d

3947

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Teen Goku is above moon level tho lol. Considering how fast Roshi's kamehameha had gotten to the moon, his kamehameha was sub-relativistic to relativistic. Goku surpassed that dude when he just a kid too. Rinnegan Sasuake didn't even use genjutsu in battle except on the bijuu (after the fight with Kaguya). Teen Goku takes this.

Avatar image for kirbstomp
Kirbstomp

236

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#16  Edited By Kirbstomp

@flashback0180:

@kirbstomp said:

Sasuke one shots, Ichigo one shots, or Naruto one shots.

Sasuke's susanoo slash, Ichigo mugetsu, Naruto black orbs or chakra arms

lol

No Caption Provided

RIP HST

No Caption Provided

you were saying next time think before posting

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Goku gets stomped.

I don't see him tanking a single Rasnhuriken from Naruto or Zanpakuto slash from Ichigo. He doesn't have the feats to physically hurt Luffy or a chakra cloaked Naruto either. At best he could Use his Kamehameha but people keep on forgetting that that isn't an AoE attack and that it can be dodged.

Avatar image for all_mighty_beyonder
All_Mighty_Beyonder

2138

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Goku gets stomped.

I don't see him tanking a single Rasnhuriken from Naruto or Zanpakuto slash from Ichigo. He doesn't have the feats to physically hurt Luffy or a chakra cloaked Naruto either. At best he could Use his Kamehameha but people keep on forgetting that that isn't an AoE attack and that it can be dodged.

how can you tell that this kamehameha can be dodged? are you suggesting that Naruto, Ichigo or Luffy have reaction speed within the range of relativistic speed ? because they can't, there is no proof.

Master Roshi's kamehameha which is much weaker and slower than Goku's, was able to destroy the moon with relativistic speed

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

how can you tell that this kamehameha can be dodged? are you suggesting that Naruto, Ichigo or Luffy have reaction speed within the range of relativistic speed ? because they can't, there is no proof.

Master Roshi's kamehameha which is much weaker and slower than Goku's, was able to destroy the moon with relativistic speed

First of all, Roshi's Kamehameha destroying the moon was a GAG feat. It happened at the time where DBZ characters could win battles by having disgusting smells, remembering that they can resist the smell because they have no drawn nose, break the 4th wall over and over again etc

Both Goku and Roshi used Kamehameha during the 21 budokai and everyone could see these energy blasts moving so that also adds to it being an inconsistency. Also Goku's Kamehameha has been dodged by characters not even close to light speed such as Radiz and even Vegeta when he was hit by that Kamehameha still had the time to move from the trajectory before said Kamehameha sent him into outer space.

The speed of Ki blasts is very inconsistent to say the least, sure you can show a couple of occasions where they reached the moon in seconds, but going by average showings, they are nowhere near the speed of light and with two characters having precog in this team there is nothing stopping them from simply aim-dodging even if they were.

Avatar image for all_mighty_beyonder
All_Mighty_Beyonder

2138

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@all_mighty_beyonder said:

how can you tell that this kamehameha can be dodged? are you suggesting that Naruto, Ichigo or Luffy have reaction speed within the range of relativistic speed ? because they can't, there is no proof.

Master Roshi's kamehameha which is much weaker and slower than Goku's, was able to destroy the moon with relativistic speed

First of all, Roshi's Kamehameha destroying the moon was a GAG feat. It happened at the time where DBZ characters could win battles by having disgusting smells, remembering that they can resist the smell because they have no drawn nose, break the 4th wall over and over again etc

Both Goku and Roshi used Kamehameha during the 21 budokai and everyone could see these energy blasts moving so that also adds to it being an inconsistency. Also Goku's Kamehameha has been dodged by characters not even close to light speed such as Radiz and even Vegeta when he was hit by that Kamehameha still had the time to move from the trajectory before said Kamehameha sent him into outer space.

The speed of Ki blasts is very inconsistent to say the least, sure you can show a couple of occasions where they reached the moon in seconds, but going by average showings, they are nowhere near the speed of light and with two characters having precog in this team there is nothing stopping them from simply aim-dodging even if they were.

first of all, Roshi destroying the moon isn't a gag moment, it was a very serious moment and a tragic moment when people tought Roshi will have to kill a kid to stop the monster.

plus i have no problem with Krilin not having a nose, a lot of wierd humans live in DB-earth, Tien have third eye, Chiaotzu is a white little flying thing, Yamcha has a flying talking cat, and don't forget the transforming talking pig...etc.

so nothing is removing legitimacy from Roshi's moon busting feat.

secondly, no, you're wrong, people never saw the kamehameha, they might have seen Roshi and Goku making the technique pose but not the moving energy wave, prove it, if you think you're right.

also DB character has control over the speed and trajectory of their energy techniques, if they wanted it to be slow it will be be slow, if they wanted it to be fast it can reach it max speed, and roshi showed relativistic speed as max speed of his kamehameha. so you have nothing to contradict the speed with.

also, about Raditz and Vegeta, you're basing your argument on a whim, what's your proof that they are not FTL or near light speed ? Raditz dodged a bit Piccolo's best technique at close range, and since Roshi's kamehameha has relativistic speed, and Piccolo's beams has more or less light speed, so yeah, Raditz has definively near light speed reaction. and so does Vegeta of course.

the speed of Ki blasts is very consistent, your just probably not understanding how it works.

also precog is not gonna save HST from being blitzed, they may know what's coming but they don't have the speed to dodge it

Goku wins

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@all_mighty_beyonder:

first of all, Roshi destroying the moon isn't a gag moment, it was a very serious moment and a tragic moment when people tought Roshi will have to kill a kid to stop the monster.

Roshi destroying the moon was about as serious as Pilaf summoning the dragon to wish for world domination only to have Olong wish for panties instead. Or Goku being about to get killed by the Red-ribbon army only to have the general snap in fear after seeing a mouse which saved goku..

plus i have no problem with Krilin not having a nose, a lot of wierd humans live in DB-earth, Tien have third eye, Chiaotzu is a white little flying thing, Yamcha has a flying talking cat, and don't forget the transforming talking pig...etc.

That isn't the point. The point was that Krillin was getting the heck beat out of him because he could not fight and stand the smell at the same time, till goku informed him that he didn't have a nose... lmao

Plus Krillin was getting nose bleeds and attacked Roshi with his snot as some point so he does have a nose even if it's not drawn. Fact is that is a GAG moment in a GAG manga, DB was not the serious fighting series at that time and many tens of feats prove this.

so nothing is removing legitimacy from Roshi's moon busting feat.

Except the fact that the feat was never replicated till the start of Z and that Roshi using his Kamehameha several times never resulted in anything close to moon busting afterwards. And this without even taking into account how much of a PIS Gag manga Dragon ball was at that time.

secondly, no, you're wrong, people never saw the kamehameha, they might have seen Roshi and Goku making the technique pose but not the moving energy wave, prove it, if you think you're right.

People saw it and even asked Roshi what it was. In fact they even went crazy after realizing that was they saw was the legendary Kamehameha.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Good luck proving that what they saw was just the pose now.

also DB character has control over the speed and trajectory of their energy techniques, if they wanted it to be slow it will be be slow, if they wanted it to be fast it can reach it max speed, and roshi showed relativistic speed as max speed of his kamehameha. so you have nothing to contradict the speed with.

Prove that they really can control the speed. You making empty claims is not a valid argument.

also, about Raditz and Vegeta, you're basing your argument on a whim, what's your proof that they are not FTL or near light speed ?

Because they have no feats putting them at light speed lmao

Raditz dodged a bit Piccolo's best technique at close range, and since Roshi's kamehameha has relativistic speed, and Piccolo's beams has more or less light speed, so yeah, Raditz has definively near light speed reaction. and so does Vegeta of course.

Assumptions everywhere. As I said many feats disprove the Kamehameha being light speed or close to that, and only one instance that was not clearly displayed and can be attributed to being a GAG feat can suggest that it is, so start by proving that Goku can indeed use a relativistic Kamehameha, then we can talk.

the speed of Ki blasts is very consistent, your just probably not understanding how it works.

Then do explain it please. and with scans as proof not just empty claims on them controlling the speed as they please.

also precog is not gonna save HST from being blitzed, they may know what's coming but they don't have the speed to dodge it

Luffy dodged lasers, and so did Naruto so your argument is invalid lol

That's what aim dodging is for.

TEAM STOMPS.

Avatar image for passingthrough545
passingthrough545

1177

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mudamudamuda: Use your argument about Goku's durability such as how he is scared of pointy rocks. OT: Team Stomps/Naruto Solos

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@passingthrough545 said:

@mudamudamuda: Use your argument about Goku's durability such as how he is scared of pointy rocks. OT: Team Stomps/Naruto Solos

I reserve that for troll threads and DBZ wankers ;)

lmao

Avatar image for all_mighty_beyonder
All_Mighty_Beyonder

2138

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mudamudamuda:

Roshi destroying the moon was about as serious as Pilaf summoning the dragon to wish for world domination only to have Olong wish for panties instead. Or Goku being about to get killed by the Red-ribbon army only to have the general snap in fear after seeing a mice which saved goku..

yeah i didn't say DB isn't full of gag moments, it was, you're missing my point, Roshi's moon bust, is empty of funny materials which define a gag moment as gag moment, it was a serious moment.

Krillin's smell, Olong wish, mice fear...etc all of those are gag moments because they are full of funny materials, the purpose is make the reader laugh. But roshi's moon bust moment is empty of funny material, it didn't have the purpose of making the reader laugh, but it was a serious action moment, with the purpose of enjoying the battle action

People saw it and even asked Roshi what it was. In fact they even went crazy after realizing that was they saw was the legendary Kamehameha.

i already know those scans, that's why i told you they didn't see the moving energy wave, they just saw goku and Roshi making technique pose and the flashy light from their hands, they didn't follow with there eyes the actual energy wave moving. So yeah, as i told you, there is no proof of what you say.

Prove that they really can control the speed. You making empty claims is not a valid argument.

i said they control trajectory and speed of there energy balls, and there is tons of feats proving that, i'll post a few :

controlled trajectory :

controlled trajectory and speed :

Because they have no feats putting them at light speed lmao

wrong, there is. You don't want to use Roshi's feat? ok, let's skip it for now, ss i said before, Raditz dodged best Piccolo's technique at close range, and Piccolo just a day after that destroyed the moon with more or less light speed effortlessly, so yeah, Raditz does have near light speed. and it fits with all other speed feats consistently.

Assumptions everywhere. As I said many feats disprove the Kamehameha being light speed or close to that, and only one instance that was not clearly displayed and can be attributed to being a GAG feat can suggest that it is, so start by proving that Goku can indeed use a relativistic Kamehameha, then we can talk.

again wrong, Roshi's kamehameha is not the only relativistic speed feat, the fact that Piccolo's feat is a light speed feat, confirms the legitimity of roshi's feat.

so here you go, 2 feats of light speed, yet you're still in denial.

Then do explain it please. and with scans as proof not just empty claims on them controlling the speed as they please.

see above

Luffy dodged lasers, and so did Naruto so your argument is invalid lol

That's what aim dodging is for.

show me that, when did Naruto or Luffy dodge laser, and i want to see real laser not just an energy beam that you think is laser, and show me real dodge not aim dodge please, because aim dodge even Spiderman and Captain America do that, it's not a proof of having near light speed reaction.

A real dodge is when laser or light speed energy beam is already fired and the character didn't start moving yet, then he perceive that laser/eenergy beam and dodge it, pretty much exactly what Raditz did with Piccolo

So untill, you can prove me that Naruto and Luffy have lightspeed reaction, Goku still blitz them and win

Avatar image for midnightdragon18
midnightdragon18

9887

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@44orhsaj: wish people would stop using that no limit fallacy term

Avatar image for mije_101
Mije_101

1588

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

The fact that people think Goku can actually defeat every single character from the HST at once is f**king hilarious.

Where do you guys buy your dope?

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#27  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@all_mighty_beyonder:

yeah i didn't say DB isn't full of gag moments, it was, you're missing my point, Roshi's moon bust, is empty of funny materials which define a gag moment as gag moment, it was a serious moment.

There is nothing serious about Roshi destroying the moon to stop Goku instead of people just cutting off his tail. In fact the moon destruction feat was so irrelevant in DB that the author didn't even bother showing it being restored afterwards.

Krillin's smell, Olong wish, mice fear...etc all of those are gag moments because they are full of funny materials, the purpose is make the reader laugh. But roshi's moon bust moment is empty of funny material, it didn't have the purpose of making the reader laugh, but it was a serious action moment, with the purpose of enjoying the battle action

The battle between Goku and Roshi itself was full of funny moments, such as Goku waking up from Roshi's hypnosis because Bulma yelled "It's dinner time" or Goku using his tail to fly like a helicopter after being blasted out of the ring as well as the winner of the battle being decided by whoever smiles and says "Yep I won it!" first. Roshi destroying the moon is just another one of those gag moments.

i already know those scans, that's why i told you they didn't see the moving energy wave, they just saw goku and Roshi making technique pose and the flashy light from their hands, they didn't follow with there eyes the actual energy wave moving. So yeah, as i told you, there is no proof of what you say.

People were literally commenting on the Kamehameha and how it's an amazing technique lol no one even mentioned anything about any kind of pose, if you are going to claim otherwise then post the scans already because your empty claims aren't worth much here.

controlled trajectory :

controlled trajectory and speed :

No one said anything about them being unable to control the trajectory, so you bringing that up is irrelevant. What we need is direct proof of them being able to control the speed which you haven't presented any evidence of. Where are the scans saying that they can control the speed ?

wrong, there is. You don't want to use Roshi's feat? ok, let's skip it for now, ss i said before, Raditz dodged best Piccolo's technique at close range, and Piccolo just a day after that destroyed the moon with more or less light speed effortlessly, so yeah, Raditz does have near light speed. and it fits with all other speed feats consistently.

The piccolo feat happened post this version of Goku, so you bringing them up to claim that this version of Goku is light speed or relativistic is completely wrong and irrelevant. Also there is literally no proof whatsoever to even suggest that the special beam cannon is as fast as piccolo's other energy blasts, it has been shown over and over again that Ki blasts, even fired by the same person can have different speeds, so what are you trying to prove by twisting the feat to suit your needs ?

again wrong, Roshi's kamehameha is not the only relativistic speed feat, the fact that Piccolo's feat is a light speed feat, confirms the legitimity of roshi's feat.

so here you go, 2 feats of light speed, yet you're still in denial.

I'm obviously talking about a Kamehameha's speed as I clearly mentioned several time. Why you keep on bringing feats from Piccolo who literally have nothing to do with Kamehameha is beyond me.

Two "light speed" feats VS God knows how many no light speed feats is pretty much irrelevant. Which is what I said in one of the very first posts of this thread.

show me that, when did Naruto or Luffy dodge laser, and i want to see real laser not just an energy beam that you think is laser, and show me real dodge not aim dodge please, because aim dodge even Spiderman and Captain America do that, it's not a proof of having near light speed reaction.

A real dodge is when laser or light speed energy beam is already fired and the character didn't start moving yet, then he perceive that laser/eenergy beam and dodge it, pretty much exactly what Raditz did with Piccolo

Before I even do that start by reading my posts carefully because what I said is that both of those characters can aim-dodge light speed attacks due to precog. Then start by proving that Goku's Kamehameha is even close to light speed, don't bring up Piccolo or Roshi's GAG feat what I'm asking for is proof of GOKU's KAMEHAMEHA being that fast, then we will talk.

So untill, you can prove me that Naruto and Luffy have lightspeed reaction, Goku still blitz them and win

Until you Prove that Goku's kamehameha is anywhere near light speed and that it can neither be aim-dodged or countered before he even uses it, the Team still stomps.

Avatar image for marshall_long
Marshall_Long

5722

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mije_101: Not this Goku but current Goku can do it with out a sweat.

Avatar image for justsomerandomkid
JustSomeRandomKid

5188

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Any Goku Saiyan Saga and up stomps.

Avatar image for loki_d
Loki_D

1544

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for justsomerandomkid
JustSomeRandomKid

5188

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@loki_d: I'm...not gonna bite that bait...

Avatar image for le0nhart
le0nhart

2063

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By MudaMudaMuda
Avatar image for le0nhart
le0nhart

2063

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#34  Edited By le0nhart
Avatar image for blacklegraph
BlackLegRaph

5544

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#35  Edited By BlackLegRaph

...

Avatar image for ravensupreme
RavenSupreme

607

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

hst

Avatar image for jgames
Jgames

8886

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 5

Naruto solo, that was weird to type.

Avatar image for all_mighty_beyonder
All_Mighty_Beyonder

2138

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

There is nothing serious about Roshi destroying the moon to stop Goku instead of people just cutting off his tail. In fact the moon destruction feat was so irrelevant in DB that the author didn't even bother showing it being restored afterwards.

again wrong, IT IS RELEVENT which proves it's not a gag moment, why is it relevent? because 3 years after Roshi destroyed the moon, it is shown that the moon still doesn't exist, and a character Man-Wolf appeared 3 years after moon's destruction to talk about his problem of transformation, that he require the moon to change back to normal, and Roshi helped him. So that's a proof that it's not a gag moment.

The moon destrucion did have it's weight on changing futur events at long period (3 years at least) like Man-Wolf transformation and also Goku's transformation.

Later on after 6 years of its destruction the moon was brought back, out of panel events, but that easily could be explained by a dragon ball wish.

The battle between Goku and Roshi itself was full of funny moments, such as Goku waking up from Roshi's hypnosis because Bulma yelled "It's dinner time" or Goku using his tail to fly like a helicopter after being blasted out of the ring as well as the winner of the battle being decided by whoever smiles and says "Yep I won it!" first. Roshi destroying the moon is just another one of those gag moments

the fight had a few gag moments yes, but it doesn't mean that those feats didn't happen, they did, and so they are ligitimate, yes goku can fly using his tail, yes Goku can wake up from hypnosis if you stimulate his strongest emotions (love of food), and yes Roshi did and can destroy the moon.

there is nothing that suggest we can't use those feats just because they were funny, since nothing contradict them.

People were literally commenting on the Kamehameha and how it's an amazing technique lol no one even mentioned anything about any kind of pose, if you are going to claim otherwise then post the scans already because your empty claims aren't worth much here.

and no one mentioned anything about how it moves or its speed, so if you are gonna keep claiming that normal people that couldn't see Krilin and roshi fighting, could see the kamehameha wave moving, then prove it please, because you proved nothing.

No one said anything about them being unable to control the trajectory, so you bringing that up is irrelevant. What we need is direct proof of them being able to control the speed which you haven't presented any evidence of. Where are the scans saying that they can control the speed ?

i gave you a proof, Krilin shot an energy ball so slow that all DBZ fighter had time to move away from the area of impact, even Piccolo said that his energy ball had almost no speed because Krilin slowed it enough to give time for his friends to empty the area.

and seriously, anyone who read or watched DBZ knows this fact, everybody know that DBZ fighters control the speed, trajectory, shape, and power of their energy beams.You're just in a lonely denial.

Also there is literally no proof whatsoever to even suggest that the special beam cannon is as fast as piccolo's other energy blasts

you're serious here or just joking ? because i can't tell.

Piccolo and Goku struggled to tag Raditz, but failed because of his tremendous speed, and you really think that Piccolo has an attack with light speed and moon bust power and he just chose not to use it??? why? for giggles? or was he trolling goku and raditz?

you make no sens at all, anyone with rational thinking will understand that Piccolo is using his fastest and strongest attacks to beat Raditz, even Piccolo's surprised reaction after seeing Raditz dodge, suggest that he used his fastest moves.

So yeah, Raditz does have near light speed reaction, and you can't disprove it.

it has been shown over and over again that Ki blasts, even fired by the same person can have different speeds

so you do agree that DBZ characters control speed of their energy beams. thank you, you just contradicted yourself.

I'm obviously talking about a Kamehameha's speed as I clearly mentioned several time. Why you keep on bringing feats from Piccolo who literally have nothing to do with Kamehameha is beyond me.

Piccolo's feat confirms that DBZ characters had reached light speed energy beams since the begining of DBZ, and since they reached light speed, that means that at a certain time, they had relativistic speed, because they can't simply jump from super sonic to light speed, the difference is too big, they had to pass by relativistic speed at some point. and that gives more legitimacy to roshi's feat being true and right.

Two "light speed" feats VS God knows how many no light speed feats is pretty much irrelevant. Which is what I said in one of the very first posts of this thread.

prove it, where is the "God knows how many" contradictions you're talking about.

and don't bother bringing me scans of slow energy balls without the context of why are they slow, because you yourself admitted now that DBZ characters can choose to shoot their energy beams with what ever speed they want.

Before I even do that start by reading my posts carefully because what I said is that both of those characters can aim-dodge light speed attacks due to precog. Then start by proving that Goku's Kamehameha is even close to light speed, don't bring up Piccolo or Roshi's GAG feat what I'm asking for is proof of GOKU's KAMEHAMEHA being that fast, then we will talk.

Roshi's feat is ligitimate, gag or not, it happened. and it's most likely not a gag because it did had influence on the story years after. so yeah, Goku has relativistic speed kamehameha.

precog is usefull only against characters with the same range of speed, because they can predict their reaction and counter it before the other guy complete his move of shooting laser or stuff like that. But precog is useless, against characters that have massive speed advantage, because by the time they process a counter attack thoughts, the other guy has already attacked them.

and that's exactly what will happen, Goku has a massive speed advantage, isn't it?

How fast are Luffy and Naruto exactly ?

Avatar image for neongamewave
NeonGameWave

19333

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Goku.

Avatar image for frisky4
Frisky4

9216

Forum Posts

364

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for buttersdaman000
buttersdaman000

23713

Forum Posts

60

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

HST

IMO Teen Goku = EoS Naruto (moon buster). Naruto is also more versatile, and with the added help of Dangai Ichigo and Luffy, the team should be able to pull off a win.

Avatar image for etheral_dreams
Etheral_Dreams

6116

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Naruto solos. To versatile for Teen Goku and is physically stronger.

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#44  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@all_mighty_beyonder: How I hate when people answer without tagging...

again wrong, IT IS RELEVENT which proves it's not a gag moment, why is it relevent? because 3 years after Roshi destroyed the moon, it is shown that the moon still doesn't exist, and a character Man-Wolf appeared 3 years after moon's destruction to talk about his problem of transformation, that he require the moon to change back to normal, and Roshi helped him. So that's a proof that it's not a gag moment.

The moon destrucion did have it's weight on changing futur events at long period (3 years at least) like Man-Wolf transformation and also Goku's transformation.

Later on after 6 years of its destruction the moon was brought back, out of panel events, but that easily could be explained by a dragon ball wish.

You haven't even proved anything I said was wrong even once so how come you are using "again wrong" ? lol

Roshi destroying the moon was a gag feat, it doesn't have to be forgotten for that to be true.

It's hilarious to see you bringing up Wolf-man who is himself just another joke character to somehow justify it. And it's even more hilarious to see you completely leaving out the details of the encounter with wolf-man and what his problem was : Not being able to date any cute girl because he was stuck in his wolf form and not wanting to date a wolf-girl because he hated hairy women lol

During that fight Roshi was even taking him as a complete joke by having him act like a dog and making him lose by tossing a bone outside the ring, which wolf-man immediately run to grab... And guess how Roshi ended up solving his problem ? By hypnotising him into believing that Krillin's bald head was the full moon lmao

The whole audience was laughing at that fight and even after reverting back it was revealed that he wouldn't have been popular with the girls anyway due to how ugly he was.... A complete joke character from when he showed up till he disappeared.

I don't get what kind of logic you are trying to use by bringing up joke characters and their issue to claim that the moon getting destroyed wasn't supposed to be a funny thing when no one else in the world seemed to care about something as serious as the moon getting destroyed for so long.

the fight had a few gag moments yes, but it doesn't mean that those feats didn't happen, they did, and so they are ligitimate, yes goku can fly using his tail, yes Goku can wake up from hypnosis if you stimulate his strongest emotions (love of food), and yes Roshi did and can destroy the moon.

there is nothing that suggest we can't use those feats just because they were funny, since nothing contradict them.

Gag feats are never considered legit feats anywhere. Dragon Ball fanboys are literally the only people who try to use them. Which makes about as much sense as claiming that Nami can beat the crap out of Luffy, sanji and Zoro at the same time because it happens so often in One Piece's funny moments, that Base Naruto can survive being punched by Sakura and being sent flying over 400m away because it happened in a gag moment or that Ichigo can be hurt by bumping his head with Orihime's head because it also happens in Gag feats. This is completely stupid and I have trouble even taking whoever tries to use these gag feats seriously...

It's even worse when the feat itself is an outlier and was never replicated by that character again such as the Moon busting feat by Roshi that he could never come close to again no matter how many times he used his Kamehameha.

and no one mentioned anything about how it moves or its speed, so if you are gonna keep claiming that normal people that couldn't see Krilin and roshi fighting, could see the kamehameha wave moving, then prove it please, because you proved nothing.

I already posted two scans of the people commenting on the Kamehameha, you are the one claiming that they did not see the Kamehameha but just saw the pose even though it is explicitly stated that what they commented on what not the pose but the technique. You keep on making the baseless claims so when are you going to bother posting the scans ?

i gave you a proof, Krilin shot an energy ball so slow that all DBZ fighter had time to move away from the area of impact, even Piccolo said that his energy ball had almost no speed because Krilin slowed it enough to give time for his friends to empty the area.

Now you are completely making up stuff. Nowhere does it say that Krillin purposely made the attack slow to let his friends leave the area of effect (they were not even close to it to begin with), the attack that Krillin used was stated to be extremely powerful but equally slow and nowhere does its say that Krillin is the one deciding on how slow it would move.

and seriously, anyone who read or watched DBZ knows this fact, everybody know that DBZ fighters control the speed, trajectory, shape, and power of their energy beams.You're just in a lonely denial.

We all agree that they can control the trajectory, shape and power, because they actually have feats of doing so. The issue here is that nowhere does it show that they can control the speed... this has never been mentioned anywhere. If you are going to claim that I'm in denial then start by posting the feats to prove that they can because so far all you are doing is calling me names to cover up your lack of proof. Which is rather pathetic if I may say. lol

you're serious here or just joking ? because i can't tell.

Why would I be joking ? It's always sad to see people use the "are you joking" or "are you trolling" aproach. That just goes to show that they have no actual proof to post.

Piccolo and Goku struggled to tag Raditz, but failed because of his tremendous speed, and you really think that Piccolo has an attack with light speed and moon bust power and he just chose not to use it??? why? for giggles? or was he trolling goku and raditz?

Piccolo doesn't have a light speed attack, that's why he wouldn't use it lol Using a moon buting AoE attack would kill him, that's why he didn't use it either.

The moon busting feat happened under no given time frame at all, you are just jumping to conclusions if you are going to claim that it happened in just one second.

you make no sens at all, anyone with rational thinking will understand that Piccolo is using his fastest and strongest attacks to beat Raditz, even Piccolo's surprised reaction after seeing Raditz dodge, suggest that he used his fastest moves.

You are the one not making any sense. Why are you just baselessly assuming that Piccolo's most powerful attack would magically also happen to be his fastest ? Piccolo was surprised at Radditz dodging because he fired his special beam cannon while Radditz was mid-attack but he still managed to stop his attack and dodge in time, not because the SBC is the fastest technique.

So yeah, Raditz does have near light speed reaction, and you can't disprove it.

Why would I need to disprove something that you didn't even prove to begin with ?

so you do agree that DBZ characters control speed of their energy beams. thank you, you just contradicted yourself.

Maybe that was too hard for you to understand ? Well my bad then. I'll try to be extra clear for you. lol

My statement : "it has been shown over and over again that Ki blasts, even fired by the same person can have different speeds"

Obviously means that different Ki attacks have different speed and this despite being used by the same person. For example Krillin's Destructo Disc, Kamehameha and the attack he used to Kill the saibaman obviously don't share the same speed even though they are all used by the same person lol

So you can't just claim that because one of Piccolo's attacks reached the moon relatively fast then his other energy attacks will also be just as fast.

Piccolo's feat confirms that DBZ characters had reached light speed energy beams since the begining of DBZ, and since they reached light speed, that means that at a certain time, they had relativistic speed, because they can't simply jump from super sonic to light speed, the difference is too big, they had to pass by relativistic speed at some point. and that gives more legitimacy to roshi's feat being true and right.

For starters, DBZ character don't have to jump from supersonic to light speed. the characters have hypersonic feats even early on but no light speed feat prior to maybe Freeza Saga. You are trying to apply flawed logic to claim that all Ki blasts fired by strong characters would have the sames speed and/or power even though this has been proven wrong too many times already.

And you still keep on trying to use a completely irrelevant character's feats as if they were Goku's. Where are Goku's Kamehameha's speed feats ? I'll be waiting.

prove it, where is the "God knows how many" contradictions you're talking about.

Let's see. Krillins energy blast explicitly stated to be slow. Every fodder witnessing Roshi and Goku using the Kamehameha. Bulma and Co witnessing Roshi use a full power Kame to destroy a mountain. Tao paipai witnessing Goku's kamehameha. a freaken octopus seeing the kamehameha lol

No Caption Provided

Mr.Satan seeing Majin Vegeta fire a Ki blast :

No Caption Provided

And those are just of the top of my head..

and don't bother bringing me scans of slow energy balls without the context of why are they slow, because you yourself admitted now that DBZ characters can choose to shoot their energy beams with what ever speed they want.

I never admitted to that. In fact I asked you (and still do) to provide proof that DBZ characters can control the speed of their attacks which you have yet to do. You are just assuming that each time someone fires a slow attack, it had to be slow because the character freely chose for it to be so, which doesn't make any sense lol

If anything, if they really could control the speed then there would be no reason for anyone to use anything other than super fast Destructo discs

Also... underlined part.. So you admit that energy attacks are slow ? lol

Roshi's feat is ligitimate, gag or not, it happened. and it's most likely not a gag because it did had influence on the story years after. so yeah, Goku has relativistic speed kamehameha.

Gag feat + an outlier = invalid feat x2.

precog is usefull only against characters with the same range of speed, because they can predict their reaction and counter it before the other guy complete his move of shooting laser or stuff like that. But precog is useless, against characters that have massive speed advantage, because by the time they process a counter attack thoughts, the other guy has already attacked them.

Yet we have characters such as spiderman dancing around lasers. And you really want me to believe that Goku could charge and fire x3 Kamehameha's faster than anyone here could process a thought ? Good joke.

and that's exactly what will happen, Goku has a massive speed advantage, isn't it?

No. Goku has literally 0 quantifiable speed feats putting him at above hypersonic. You all love to ignore logic as well as the fact the different Ki blasts from different people have shown different speeds only to claim the X destroying the moon = Ki blasts move at X speed = character who dodges Ki blast is X speed. DBZ has only been unbanned for one week and i am already fed-up of the irrational thinking of those fanboys... When I think that I was so excited about finally being able to see DBZ characters in debates again...

How fast are Luffy and Naruto exactly ?

Fast enough to set the air of fire through sheer speed. Casually dodge lightning, Aim-dodge lasers and call them slow. as well as react to attacks that crossed the moon's diameter in 2 seconds in base form.

Avatar image for darkslumber
DarkSlumber

426

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Naruto Solos.

He can probably take on Raditz honestly.

Avatar image for oblivion360
oblivion360

1117

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

naruto solos

Avatar image for hulkage
Hulkage

5502

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for all_mighty_beyonder
All_Mighty_Beyonder

2138

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mudamudamuda:

How I hate when people answer without tagging...

sorry, i have connection problems, i did tag you the first time, but my answer wasn't posted so i refreshed the page and the tag was lost

Gag feats are never considered legit feats anywhere. Dragon Ball fanboys are literally the only people who try to use them. Which makes about as much sense as claiming that Nami can beat the crap out of Luffy, sanji and Zoro at the same time because it happens so often in One Piece's funny moments, that Base Naruto can survive being punched by Sakura and being sent flying over 400m away because it happened in a gag moment or that Ichigo can be hurt by bumping his head with Orihime's head because it also happens in Gag feats. This is completely stupid and I have trouble even taking whoever tries to use these gag feats seriously...

and i keep telling you Roshi's moon busting isn't a gag moment. Because :

  • Gag moments requires funny material, i see no funny material in that scene where Roshi destroys the moon, at the contrary, it was a sad and tragic moment when everybody thought Goku was killed
  • Gag moments most of the time are out of context events (like all those you mentioned), but Roshi's moon bust isn't, it fits in context, and completes the story of how Goku lost the Budokai tournament, and it also had effects on later events, events after 68 chapters/issues, 3 years in story timeline.
  • Gag moments tend to contradict events, but Roshi's moon bust have no contradiction, it's true that he never showed such feat again, but that's because he never was put in a situation where he has to shoot the moon again. Also if Roshi's feat was the only one in the entire DB story then yeah it would probably look a little bit far-fetched, but the fact that Piccolo destroyed the moon later on in an easier way and faster than Roshi, gives ligitimacy to Roshi's feat,

No body is taking gag moments seriously, it's just you considering a ligitimate feat as gag, even if it doesn't fit the requirements of a gag moment, and later story plots implies strongly the legitimacy of the feat.

in other words you have no right, no evidence, to throw away this feat.

I already posted two scans of the people commenting on the Kamehameha, you are the one claiming that they did not see the Kamehameha but just saw the pose even though it is explicitly stated that what they commented on what not the pose but the technique. You keep on making the baseless claims so when are you going to bother posting the scans ?

you are twisting my words to your favor, i didn't say that people didn't see the kamehameha, i said people didn't see the speed of the kamehameha, they didn't see the energy wave moving, they just saw the 2 combatant using the kamehameha pose and then baaam a flashy light from their hands and a strong shockwave of the clash, that's why they commented on how amazing it is, but people know s**t about what's really happened.

if they could see the movement of the energy wave, then they would also have seen roshi and Krilin fighting, which makes a contradiction in your logic. so what really happended is that they only saw flashy light and baaam explosion, noway they could see an attack that fast.

So if you keep claiming they did see the enrgy wave's movement, then please show me where in the scans they saw it.

Now you are completely making up stuff. Nowhere does it say that Krillin purposely made the attack slow to let his friends leave the area of effect (they were not even close to it to begin with), the attack that Krillin used was stated to be extremely powerful but equally slow and nowhere does its say that Krillin is the one deciding on how slow it would move.

the scan is very clear don't try to deny it, Piccolo said : "it's like a sign saying 'get away', tremendous power but no speed", and we see clearly Gohan running away, Piccolo getting back, Tien yelling at chaozu to get back.

Krilin chose to make a slow energy wave, and Piccolo confirm that, if Krilin attacks were always that slow Piccolo wouldn't even comment it. Krilin can shoot fast or slow energy waves, as does everyone else, it's a basic Ki control that everybody have, and you admitted yourself that the same character shoot energies with different speeds, how do you explain that then? luck? DBz characters can choose what's speed to shoot their energy waves with, deal with it.

i'll dig for other scans later.

Piccolo doesn't have a light speed attack, that's why he wouldn't use it lol Using a moon buting AoE attack would kill him, that's why he didn't use it either.

The moon busting feat happened under no given time frame at all, you are just jumping to conclusions if you are going to claim that it happened in just one second.

No, first Piccolo doesn't need an AoE attack to reach moon bust level, because DBZ characters can shoot tremendous destruction power in a small area, they basically control the area of destruction, and it's proven many times when characters like Frieza with planet bust durability get bleed, hurt, destroyed with energy waves that doesn't make planet size area of destruction, this principle is used pretty much in all mangas and comics, Superman get knocked out from a punch with planet bust power, yet there is no shokewave of that magnitude, Superman smashing Doomsday into the ground, yet the crater was very small, Galactus's beam breaking through Thanos sheilds and hurt him, yet the explosion wasn't bigger than a bus. So yeah, Piccolo can shoot Raditz with moon bust power if he wanted.

Piccolo's moon bust took a second or 2, at worst 3, because if you look at the scan, you'll see clearly that the moon was already destroyed when Piccoo was still making his attack pose and the energy beam trail was still on his hand, that's a proof that the explosion happened almost immediately. and we all know that in order to see the moon destroyed we have to wait 2.6 seconds for the light to travel up and back. So yeah, Piccolo's moon bust is more or less light speed.

so here you go, Piccolo's attack is more or less light speed and with moon busting power, yet Raditz dodge it at close range, that's an irrefutable proof that Raditz is near light speed.

You are the one not making any sense. Why are you just baselessly assuming that Piccolo's most powerful attack would magically also happen to be his fastest ? Piccolo was surprised at Radditz dodging because he fired his special beam cannon while Radditz was mid-attack but he still managed to stop his attack and doge in time, not because the SBC is the fastest technique.

so you're saying that a weak enegy wave that Piccolo shot without breaking a sweat is faster than a powerful and an elaborated energy beam ? good luck proving that.

and no, Piccolo was shocked because of the unimaginable speed of Raditz as he said : "wha..what is he? th..that speed !!!" Piccolo couldn't do s**t to tag Raditz, if he had any faster technique he would have already used it, if not to kill him at least it will slow him down. So yeah, all proofs leads to the point that Raditz is faster than anything Piccolo can deliver, which means Raditz if near light speed.

So you can't just claim that because one of Piccolo's attacks reached the moon relatively fast then his other energy attacks will also be just as fast.

they are as fast, going by context (read above). you just keep making no sens, Piccolo has a super fast moon bust technique, right? according to you its his fastest and not Makkanko sappo, and Piccolo is struggling to tag Raditz but failed, so why didn't he use that super fast beam? because he was trolling Goku and Raditz? You're making non sens at all.

Let's see. Krillins energy blast explicitly stated to be slow. Every fodder witnessing Roshi and Goku using the Kamehameha. Bulma and Co witnessing Roshi use a full power Kame to destroy a mountain. Tao paipai witnessing Goku's kamehameha. a freaken octopus seeing the kamehameha lol

Mr.Satan seeing Majin Vegeta fire a Ki blast

"Krillins energy blast explicitly stated to be slow", out of context, Piccolo explicitly explained that it's to give them time to get back and indeed everyone including gohan, chaozu, tien and Piccolo had time to get back.

"Every fodder witnessing Roshi and Goku using the Kamehameha" No proof of that, keep trying, show me people actually seeing the kamehameha moving, not just people admiring how great the show of the technique was.

Bulma and Co witnessing Roshi use a full power Kame to destroy a mountain again wrong, show me proof that they saw the actual energy wave moving, they only saw a flashing light as proven in the scan, only a flashy light, they didn't depict the speed

No Caption Provided

and it's not a full power kamehameha

Tao paipai witnessing Goku's kamehameha when? Tao is fast so it's not a problem if he can see it since Goku is on the same league as him at that time., also i'll need the context to understand what happened

a freaken octopus seeing the kamehameha again no proof that the octopus saw how fast it is.

Mr.Satan seeing Majin Vegeta fire a Ki blast again out of context, Mr Satan saw nothing, Mr Satan had a big O on his face and big eyes, a long time ago before Vegeta fired ki blast.

nice try, but you brought no contradiction untill now, keep looking.

I never admitted to that. In fact I asked you (and still do) to provide proof that DBZ characters can control the speed of their attacks which you have yet to do. You are just assuming that each time someone fires a slow attack, it had to be slow because the character freely chose for it to be so, which doesn't make any sense lol

it does make sens, it's the contrary that doesn't make sens, you're just trying to force contradictions on feats, to prove you're right, and that's lame.

i already gave you proof with 1 scan, i'll find other scans later. I'm still waiting for your proof with scans

If anything, if they really could control the speed then there would be no reason for anyone to use anything other than super fast Destructo discs

that doesn't make sens, destructo disk is a difficult technique and require time to make, and the shape and nature of the technique makes it slower than normal energy blasts

Also... underlined part.. So you admit that energy attacks are slow ? lol

yes they can be slow, BECAUSE THE SHOOTER CHOSE TO FIRE IT SLOW? HE CAN ALSO SHOOT IT FASTER. and Krilin did just that.

Gag feat + an outlier = invalid feat x2

there is no outlier, you proved nothing till now, and it's not a gag, so Roshi's feat is still legitimate untill you can prove otherwise.

Yet we have characetrs such as spiderman dancing around lasers

Aim dodge because of spider sens. next...

No. Goku has literally 0 quantifiable speed feats putting him at above hypersonic

never said otherwise, i said his ki blasts are relativistic speed, unless you think that Roshi's ki blasts are faster than Goku's, then i'll ask you a proof because you won't make sens.

the fact the different Ki blasts from different people have shown different speeds

i know that and agree, i never said otherwise

Ki blasts move at X speed = characer who dodges Ki blast is X speed

that's true if it's real dodge not aim dodge.

Fast enough to set the air of fire through sheer speed. Casually dodge lightning, Aim-dodge lasers and call them slow. as well as react to attacks that crossed the moons diameter in 2 seconds in base form.

scans? or better show me which chapters, because i won't believe your scans, you already brought me 2 out of context instances, and i want to see the precog thing because i don't remember Naruto having that

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#49  Edited By MudaMudaMuda

@all_mighty_beyonder: Sorry for the late reply. Today was a very busy day and I'm rather tired, so i'll try to keep my post short. If something doesn't seem clear in what I'm saying just notify me and I'll probably provide a more detailed answer tomorrow.

sorry, i have connection problems, i did tag you the first time, but my answer wasn't posted so i refreshed the page and the tag was lost

That's fine then.

and i keep telling you Roshi's moon busting isn't a gag moment. Because :

Gag moments requires funny material, i see no funny material in that scene where Roshi destroys the moon, at the contrary, it was a sad and tragic moment when everybody thought Goku was killed

Is destroying the freaken moon to stop Goku's transformation instead of cutting his tail not funny enough for you ? Are we also just going to ignore this part altogether ?

No Caption Provided

Gag moments most of the time are out of context events (like all those you mentioned), but Roshi's moon bust isn't, it fits in context, and completes the story of how Goku lost the Budokai tournament, and it also had effects on later events, events after 68 chapters/issues, 3 years in story timeline.

Since when is this supposed to be a condition for a feat to be considered a gag feat ?

Jiraiya getting punched by Tsunade and surviving when he tried to stalk her as she was taking a bath was supposed to e funny... yet that doesn't stop Jiraiya from mentioning that when talking about the only two instances where he nearly faced death and this despite the fact that the situation was very serious since Team 7's lives were in danger. So I guess that makes it a legit feat then and base Jiraiya can now survive mountain busting punches ?

Another example would be Sanji having a nose bleed each time he sees a beautiful women is supposed to be a gag, yet that doesn't stop the writer of OP from constantly bringing that up even in serious situation and at some point have Sanji's life be in mortal danger due to losing too much blood from his nose bleed..

Gag moments tend to contradict events, but Roshi's moon bust have no contradiction, it's true that he never showed such feat again, but that's because he never was put in a situation where he has to shoot the moon again. Also if Roshi's feat was the only one in the entire DB story then yeah it would probably look a little bit far-fetched, but the fact that Piccolo destroyed the moon later on in an easier way and faster than Roshi, gives ligitimacy to Roshi's feat,

Again, that doesn't have to be true. Both instances I mentioned above have no contradictions yet they are still very clearly gag feats. The problem with Roshi's moon busting feat is that it happened back when DB was a very gag oriented manga and that Roshi has used his kamehameha several time through the series and never once did it come close to moon busting in power (other than that one instance). It's always annoying to debate against these kind of feats.

No body is taking gag moments seriously, it's just you considering a ligitimate feat as gag, even if it doesn't fit the requirements of a gag moment, and later story plots implies strongly the legitimacy of the feat.

in other words you have no right, no evidence, to throw away this feat.

All the evidence and logical reasoning needed has been presented. As usual with dragon ball though every debate ends up with "Lalalala I can't hear you" and "my reasoning is right yours is wrong because I say so" since the feats are so ambiguous and anyone can interpret them as they see fit. This feat isn't even relevant to begin with since Roshi =/= Goku, so why are we still discussing it again ?

you are twisting my words to your favor, i didn't say that people didn't see the kamehameha, i said people didn't see the speed of the kamehameha,

What ? This doesn't even make sense. How do you see speed ? You don't see speed, you see something moving at X speed. So either everyone saw the Kamehameha or they didn't. Canon answer says that they saw it.

they didn't see the energy wave moving,they just saw the 2 combatant using the kamehameha pose and then baaam a flashy light from their hands and a strong shockwave of the clash, that's why they commented on how amazing it is, but people know s**t about what's really happened.

Assumptions.

if they could see the movement of the energy wave, then they would also have seen roshi and Krilin fighting, which makes a contradiction in your logic. so what really happended is that they only saw flashy light and baaam explosion, noway they could see an attack that fast.

A tired and out of energy Roshi was dodging the Kamehameha with some ease so why is it so hard to believe that Roshi's speed > Kamehameha ?

So if you keep claiming they did see the enrgy wave's movement, then please show me where in the scans they saw it.

I already showed the scans where people say that they saw the Kamehameha before their very eyes. You are the one claiming that means they didn't actually see it, so it goes without saying that the burden of proof is on you.

the scan is very clear don't try to deny it, Piccolo said : "it's like a sign saying 'get away', tremendous power but no speed", and we see clearly Gohan running away, Piccolo getting back, Tien yelling at chaozu to get back.

If the scan was so clear we wouldn't be interpreting it differently...

You think that Piccolo's comment "Tremendous power but no speed !! It's like a sign saying 'get away !!'" suggests that Piccolo believes the energy blast to be a warning to his friends to get out of range. Whereas I interpret it as a mark of Piccolo's surprise about how Krillin was intending to hit the enemy with an attack that is so slow that it's like putting a sign telling the enemy "Here I come, get away".

Krilin chose to make a slow energy wave, and Piccolo confirm that,

That's only your own interpretation of the feat.

if Krilin attacks were always that slow Piccolo wouldn't even comment it.

I thought we both agreed that not all energy blasts move at the same speed ?

Krilin can shoot fast or slow energy waves, as does everyone else, it's a basic Ki control that everybody have, and you admitted yourself that the same character shoot energies with different speeds, how do you explain that then? luck?

Different attacks come in different speeds Duh!

Kamehameha =/= Destructo disc =/= King Chi Blast etc

DBz characters can choose what's speed to shoot their energy waves with, deal with it.

Still waiting for that proof.

No, first Piccolo doesn't need an AoE attack to reach moon bust level, because DBZ characters can shoot tremendous destruction power in a small area, they basically control the area of destruction,

But I thought you said Krillin purposely shot slow energy blasts to give his friends the time to leave the are of effect instead of just making this area of effect smaller lol

and it's proven many times when characters like Frieza with planet bust durability get bleed, hurt, destroyed with energy waves that doesn't make planet size area of destruction, this principle is used pretty much in all mangas and comics, Superman get knocked out from a punch with planet bust power, yet there is no shokewave of that magnitude, Superman smashing Doomsday into the ground, yet the crater was very small, Galactus's beam breaking through Thanos sheilds and hurt him, yet the explosion wasn't bigger than a bus. So yeah,

You are talking about attack potency =/= AoE here, which i don't think anyone disagrees with.

Piccolo can shoot Raditz with moon bust power if he wanted.

Where is the proof that Piccolo from the Raditz fight could shoot compressed moon busting attacks ? You pretty much went on a pointless ramble abut attack potency without actually discussing the issue at hand.

Piccolo's moon bust took a second or 2, at worst 3, because if you look at the scan, you'll see clearly that the moon was already destroyed when Piccoo was still making his attack pose and the energy beam trail was still on his hand, that's a proof that the explosion happened almost immediately. and we all know that in order to see the moon destroyed we have to wait 2.6 seconds for the light to travel up and back. So yeah, Piccolo's moon bust is more or less light speed.

Assumptions. We both know DBZ characters tend t leave their hands extended for as long as the energy attack needs to reach the target, so that's not a good scaling point.

so here you go, Piccolo's attack is more or less light speed and with moon busting power, yet Raditz dodge it at close range, that's an irrefutable proof that Raditz is near light speed.

Scans of Raditz dodging Piccolo's moon busting attack ? I though we pretty much established that different Ki blasts have different speeds so why are dishonestly trying to claim that SBC is as fast the unquantifiable moon busting attack ?

so you're saying that a weak enegy wave that Piccolo shot without breaking a sweat is faster than a powerful and an elaborated energy beam ?

Weak energy attack that he shot without breaking a sweat ? What's that ? The moon busting beam completely exhausted him as he was sweating and panting lol

good luck proving that.

Proving what ? You didn't provide proof that it was slower so why should I prove that it isn't ? I'm not the one trying to base an entire argument on this assumption lol

and no, Piccolo was shocked because of the unimaginable speed of Raditz as he said : "wha..what is he? th..that speed !!!" Piccolo couldn't do s**t to tag Raditz, if he had any faster technique he would have already used it, if not to kill him at least it will slow him down.

And what if the only energy attack that comes close to the needed speed is an AoE attack that will get dragged within the explosion and completely exhaust him as is the case with the moon busting beam ?

So yeah, all proofs leads to the point that Raditz is faster than anything Piccolo can deliver, which means Raditz if near light speed.

Why ?

they are as fast, going by context (read above). you just keep making no sens, Piccolo has a super fast moon bust technique, right? according to you its his fastest and not Makkanko sappo, and Piccolo is struggling to tag Raditz but failed, so why didn't he use that super fast beam? because he was trolling Goku and Raditz? You're making non sens at all.

Read above.

"Krillins energy blast explicitly stated to be slow", out of context, Piccolo explicitly explained that it's to give them time to get back and indeed everyone including gohan, chaozu, tien and Piccolo had time to get back.

No, it's not out of context at all. You are the one making different interpretations of the statement as I already explained above.

"Every fodder witnessing Roshi and Goku using the Kamehameha" No proof of that, keep trying, show me people actually seeing the kamehameha moving, not just people admiring how great the show of the technique was.

Still waiting for you to prove that you assumptions about them not actually seeing the attack is true...

Bulma and Co witnessing Roshi use a full power Kame to destroy a mountain again wrong, show me proof that they saw the actual energy wave moving, they only saw a flashing light as proven in the scan, only a flashy light, they didn't depict the speed

The same as above. But since I'm a good mood, I'll also add this :

No Caption Provided

Tao paipai witnessing Goku's kamehameha when? Tao is fast so it's not a problem if he can see it since Goku is on the same league as him at that time., also i'll need the context to understand what happened

But you were claiming that Kamehameha is near light speed... so does Tao have light speed reflexes now ? ... lol

a freaken octopus seeing the kamehameha again no proof that the octopus saw how fast it is.

What ? He is staring right at it lol

The denial is strong with this one.

Mr.Satan seeing Majin Vegeta fire a Ki blast again out of context, Mr Satan saw nothing, Mr Satan had a big O on his face and big eyes, a long time ago before Vegeta fired ki blast.

lol I'm referring to this :

No Caption Provided

nice try, but you brought no contradiction untill now, keep looking.

Too bad I have presented irrefutable evidence. You are just in denial.

it does make sens, it's the contrary that doesn't make sens, you're just trying to force contradictions on feats, to prove you're right, and that's lame.

Yet you fail to debunk any of my points once again. lol

i already gave you proof with 1 scan, i'll find other scans later. I'm still waiting for your proof with scans

No you didn't. What you gave me are assumptions about how you interpret the feats, which is rather funny because literally every single argument you tried to present so far was entirely based on your own interpretations of feats lol

that doesn't make sens, destructo disk is a difficult technique and require time to make, and the shape and nature of the technique makes it slower than normal energy blasts

So you admit that DBZ characters cannot freely control the speed of their attacks ? Nice.

yes they can be slow, BECAUSE THE SHOOTER CHOSE TO FIRE IT SLOW? HE CAN ALSO SHOOT IT FASTER. and Krilin did just that.

Assumptions. You just admitted that DBZ characters cannot control the speed since you admit they cannot do it to the Destruco Disc lol

there is no outlier, you proved nothing till now, and it's not a gag, so Roshi's feat is still legitimate untill you can prove otherwise.

I already debunked the feat. It's still irrelevant anyway since you haven't proved that GOKU's Kamehameha is the speed of light or relativistic or whatever. You are basically discussing off-topic crap.

Aim dodge because of spider sens. next...

You do realize that is exactly my point right ? lmao

never said otherwise, i said his ki blasts are relativistic speed, unless you think that Roshi's ki blasts are faster than Goku's, then i'll ask you a proof because you won't make sens.

That doesn't make any damn sense. If I Ki blast is relativistic why would hypersonic characters dodge them after being used ? And I'm still waiting for you to prove that Goku's Ki blasts are as fast as Roshi's since we already established that Ki blasts come in all kinds of speeds.

i know that and agree, i never said otherwise

Yet in the very above line you were claiming that Roshi's Ki blasts = Goku's and that saying otherwise doesn't make sense. Talk about contradicting oneself...

that's true if it's real dodge not aim dodge.

I love how you just offered us a live example of DBZ fans nonsense logic that example was evoking by completely ignoring haft the argument and only nitpicking the part that suit your needs.

scans? or better show me which chapters, because i won't believe your scans, you already brought me 2 out of context instances, and i want to see the precog thing because i don't remember Naruto having that

How rude. You claim I'm a liar and brought scans out of context when literally the only reason for you to disagree with my scans is due to your different interpretation of Dbz crappy ambiguous feats. Well since you have so little trust in how about you google it for yourself ?

Avatar image for mudamudamuda
MudaMudaMuda

5354

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0