In a battle featuring DC and Marvel's most powerful aliens, which universe would rule SUPREME? The Combatants:
Superman vs. Silver Surfer
Mon-el vs. Hyperion
Martian Manhunter vs. Gladiator
Starfire vs. Gamora
Big Barda vs. Thundra
Saturn Girl vs. Moondragon
Darkseid vs. Thanos (no Infinity Gauntlet)
DC characters are PREN52. Morals Off. Ready? BEGIN!
Looks like it's time to CAAAAALLLL SOME-BO-DAAAAAAAAAY! @termiteone4ever@speedster101@misterwhisper@boringperson@agent41@thebestofthebest@chimeroid@christianrapper@xiix@myerlanski@outside_85 ---who would be victorius?
Thanos + Silver Surfer = secured win.
In a battle featuring DC and Marvel's most powerful aliens, which universe would rule SUPREME? The Combatants:
Superman vs. Silver Surfer
Mon-el vs. Hyperion
Martian Manhunter vs. Gladiator
Starfire vs. Gamora
Big Barda vs. Thundra
Saturn Girl vs. Moondragon
Darkseid vs. Thanos (no Infinity Gauntlet)
DC characters are PREN52. Morals Off. Ready? BEGIN!
Superman vs ss is actually a good foght since SS has shown brute force ca KO him. But i am stil giving it to SS
Mon vs hyperion is even. I am leaning towards Hyperion but will srill call stalemate
MMH stomps Gladiator
Starfire vs Gamora. I think SF takes this
Barda vs Thunda: i know next to nothing bout Tundra so i will refrain from judging
Saturn vs Moon- well, Saturn is bigger than the Moon. Jokes aside she should sin.
DS vs Than man- hard to Judge, but with no amps i think Thanos is not quite there.
Now round of victors
Surfer and Hyperion vs DS and MMH i think the other victors woulld be Hurt enough to not be of value. DC wins
@chimeroid: it's not a "good fight". Supes gets drained effortlessly.
@maninthemountain: so i will assume surfer drains in every fight and was never beaten to a pulp?
Superman vs. Silver Surfer - SS easily
Mon-el vs. Hyperion - Hyperion
Martian Manhunter vs. Gladiator - MMH
Starfire vs. Gamora - Starfire
Big Barda vs. Thundra - Thundra
Saturn Girl vs. Moondragon - Moondragon
Darkseid vs. Thanos (no Infinity Gauntlet) -Thanos
Marvel win thanks to SS and Thanos
marvel
Thanos + Silver Surfer = secured win.
@maninthemountain: @lettsplay10: @mrhamwallet: @thebestofthebest:Such is the Surfer's power, that I have no problem if he were depicted beating Superman. Such Is The Surfer's Power, That I Have No Problem If He Were Depicted Beating Superman.
SUCH IS THE SURFER'S POWER, THAT I HAVE NO PROBLEM IF HE WERE DEPICTED BEATING SUPERMAN. There---I have stated that repeatedly, so anyone that has a freak out over what I'm about to say, it's on them.
@chimeroid you are correct in disputing Maninthemountain's claim that Surfer can "drain" Superman so easily. Entities ranging from the Parasite to the Mageddon Warhead (who famed writer Grant Morrison-the author of the story arc that introduced this cosmic threat-stated is "the primordial annhilator" capable of literally destroying EVERYTHING) were not able to INSTANTLY drain Kal; it is doubtful that Radd's draining powers are so much more "special" than those beings that he could do what they could not. And, needless to say, Supes didn't just kindly float around and LET them "drain" him (what, you think this FTL'er-with morals off-is not going to keep Surfer busy with blistering blows to his face)?? Since they weren't able to INSTANTLY "drain" him he had more than enough power to weather their attacks and beat them-and he can do the same to Radd. Not to mention, he can vibrate to intangibility, as he did in Superman issue 175, which made all of Doomsday's attacks-punches, fire breath and eyeball energy beams-pass right through Kal, and Superman issue 170 when Mongul and Mongal's energy blasts went through his vibrating body. The intangibility gambit could also render several other Surfer tricks (red sun, kryptonite. energy blasts, etc.) moot as well, since in the intangible state Kal is like a ghost, and free from harm. In the next post, in fact, I'll display all the ways Supes has-often more than once-resisted all of Radd's tricks.
@agent41 you are quite correct regarding you comments about Barda and Thundra. It's strange---in my "DC vs. Marvel: Girl Fights!!" thread, the OVERWHELMING majority went for Barda; it's strange to see-so far-that scenario reversed in this thread. Well, the thread is young, so who knows if that will be continue to be so? Anyway, thanks for responding, and look at my next post---perhaps it contains feats you weren't aware about, and may alter your judgement about what would happen as a result of a PreN52 Superman/Silver Surfer bout.
So here is how PreN52 Superman has fared against things Silver Surfer might try against him. By category:
Transmutation/Matter Manipulation-There were quite a few to choose from, but I'm mentioning the following two (the double sized "JLA: Primeval" and the DC wide story arc that featured Neron and Death Goddess Blaze fighting for control of the Nether Realms) because they feature him not only resisting ANY ol' matter manipulation, but MAGICAL ones! In the JLA story, Supes resisted it from a being named Disciple who was powered by several ancient Gods, yet Supes' control of his own molecules is so complete that he resisted the villain's POINT BLANK MAGICAL TRANSMUTATION RAYS-even as his team mates Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Diana Wonder Woman, and Wally West Flash could not-eventually grabbed his power staff and defeated him. In the other instance Kal resisted being transmuted into a demon by Blaze who had magical control over the very reality of her realm---yet Kal shook off her power through sheer endurance and will power (which had never before been done by ANYONE) and went on to beat her. So the Man Of Steel not only resisted transmutation, but MAGICAL transmutation as well, killing two myths (the old "magic is an instant win" one) with one stone! I just don't see Surfer's powers being SOOO much more "special" than those beings that he could achieve what they could not.
Red Sun-Oh, drat, gotta grab something real quick; I'll be back to complete this post in a few moments! =EDIT= Okay, I'm back! As I was saying, when it comes to Red Sun Radiation, it does not make Superman INSTANTLY DROP; in fact, it doesn't make him drop at all. While this will-EVENTUALLY-bring him down to human level, Superman generally has so much power stored up that that takes a LOOONNNG time to happen-and before that occurs, Supes has usually won his battle. Examples include Superman issue 480 with him surviving IMMERSION in a Red Sun due to the Eradicator, and Action Comics 487 when-despite SIMULTANEOUSLY receiving blistering blasts of Red Sun Radiation-while in the middle of a Sun Eater-AND an explosion of an entropy bomb (described as fifty times as big as Kepler's Supernova)-Kal withstood it! So this attack is NOT a "cinch win" for the Silver Surfer
Kryptonite-This is not an "instant win"-this substance slowly reduces the Kryptonian from 100%, to 70% and so on, to human level---THEN it kills him. There is pain during this process, of course, but it takes a while-and there are too many instances of Kal fighting through this and eventually winning to go through here (not to mention he could go intangible and make the whole thing moot, anyway).
Telepathic Assault-Kal has resisted this many, MANY times including resisting it from Eradicator in Superman issue 480, the White Martian Protex in JLA issue 4, Despero in JLA issue 118, and powerful telepath Captain Comet in Action Comics issue 12---so TP against Superman is NOT a "cinch win" for Norrin (unless someone wants to argue that Radd's TP is somehow more "special" than ALL those people I mentioned).
Durability-Many, MANY feats can be used, so I'll just pick two-to mention the Meggadon Warhead again, this device AT MINIMUM was capable of vaporizing half a galaxy, but Supes not only resisted being drained, but tanked every impact this thing threw at him with no harm whatsoever---then actually SMILED afterward in JLA issue 41; and in Superman issue 153 became the first being EVER in the history of the universe to defeat an "unbreakable" Imperiex Probe-after tanking blasts from the construct that was capable of vaporizing a Solar System.
There's more-LOTS more-but this should be sufficient to show that anyone claiming Surfer can just run over Superman, or that Kal doesn't have an equally good shot to beat Surfer-is guilty of willfully ignoring information because either they "like" Surfer better, or are one of those people that once they pick a side will stick by it no matter WHAT type of new information they receive.
@theonewhoknows: "Entities ranging from the Parasite to the Mageddon Warhead (who famed writer Grant Morrison-the author of the story arc that introduced this cosmic threat-stated is "the primordial annhilator" capable of literally destroying EVERYTHING) were not able to INSTANTLY drain Kal; it is doubtful that Radd's draining powers are so much more "special" than those beings that he could do what they could not."
So who have they drained, preferably in that arc but not limited to, to suggest he could withstand being drained by a being who has done it very casually in the past and has rarely had a problem doing so?
"And, needless to say, Supes didn't just kindly float around and LET them "drain" him (what, you think this FTL'er-with morals off-is not going to keep Surfer busy with blistering blows to his face)??"
He doesn't have to, their is evidence to suggest Surfer is a fair bit faster than Supes. More to the point if all characters here are morals off then Supes really doesn't stand a chance. The things Norrin is capable of without his morals make Superman look like an infant.
"Since they weren't able to INSTANTLY "drain" him he had more than enough power to weather their attacks and beat them-and he can do the same to Radd."
They were villains and so of course Superman will overcome them in the end, this is not the case and Norrin is a very different character who has overcome those more powerful than he in the past too.
"Not to mention, he can vibrate to intangibility, as he did in Superman issue 175, which made all of Doomsday's attacks-punches, fire breath and eyeball energy beams-pass right through Kal, and Superman issue 170 when Mongul and Mongal's energy blasts went through his vibrating body. The intangibility gambit could also render several other Surfer tricks (red sun, kryptonite. energy blasts, etc.) moot as well, since in the intangible state Kal is like a ghost, and free from harm. In the next post," Firstly, I'm assuming he's used this ability more than twice? As I've often seen people completely disregarding powers Surfer has used only a handful of times. Secondly, whilst intangible there is nothing he can do to Surfer, as soon as he's not intangible he's screwed, and Norrin can go intangible too.
"While this will-EVENTUALLY-bring him down to human level, Superman generally has so much power stored up that that takes a LOOONNNG time to happen-and before that occurs"
So how about if he's being exposed to red sun radiation whilst being drained of his precious yellow sun radiation? It seems to be without the plot calling for his victory he wouldn't withstand this. You've picked a handful of showings of him resisting this stuff, which I'd like to see preferably, yet how many times have these things affected him more severely?
"this substance slowly reduces the Kryptonian from 100%, to 70% and so on, to human level---THEN it kills him."
Slowly or not whilst he's losing power it makes life a lot easier for Surfer.
"Telepathic Assault-Kal has resisted this many, MANY times including resisting it from Eradicator in Superman issue 480"
Well what feats does Eradicator have that compare to Surfers? Who has bested Thanos in tp with morals on, who has resisted high level telepaths many times in the past. Also I'm sure I've seen more than one instance of Supes failing to resist tp.
"There's more-LOTS more-but this should be sufficient to show that anyone claiming Surfer can just run over Superman, or that Kal doesn't have an equally good shot to beat Surfer-is guilty of willfully ignoring information because either they "like" Surfer better, or are one of those people that once they pick a side will stick by it no matter WHAT type of new information they receive."
While you've done a fairly good job defending Superman I happen to know you are incredibly bias when it comes to him. As I am no expert of Superman it's hard to say but I wouldn't be surprised if you were basing it on a few high end showings which contradict his more consistent ones. A morals off Silver Surfer would walk all over Superman imo.
@TheGrayGhost: @BlackStarOblivion: Any interest in proving morals off SS can trounce morals off Supes?
@mrhamwallet: Actually, yes I do. Gotta work on the WBH/Superman thing first.
I will try and get to it this weekend. Right now...I've got some people to,er...expose.
:)
@mrhamwallet:If I was "biased", I would not state-UP FRONT-that it is legit that Surfer can win, and in fact I would have "no problem" if it was depicted happening. "Bias" has nothing to do with my decisions---I go where the feats, facts, stats and logic takes me. Because I present documentation that a character I advocate for wins a battle does not mean I have "bias"; people who claim that are often people who don't "like" that my evidence proves my case projecting their frustrated feelings on to me---something that is regrettable, but not my responsibility.
That being said, I appreciate you stating that I did a "fairly good job of defending Superman"---which is why I hope things can remain civil (something I always hope for, but no matter how even tempered and clinical I start off giving my evidence, fan driven people at some point get angry and try to insult me, or bring up side issues, and when I give as good as I get, things deteriorate. I have often seen people who, after I give them back the crap they give me, dig in their heels and reject my evidence---but then say things like "fair enough" or "that's a good point" to a poster who says the VERY SAME THING later! It is why I have stopped responding to certain people because of that kind of foolishness---hope you will not behave in that manner. Now, then---
Surfer is NOT a "fair bit faster than Supes", ESPECIALLY in the use of COMBAT speed. Surfer is great shakes at fantastic TRAVEL super speed, but Kal uses COMBAT super speed a lot more. And considering Superman has feats like being able to outrace a photon (look up what a photon is if you don't recognize the significance of how fast that is) to it's target in the double sized "JLA: Heavens Ladder" and appear a micro second behind Starfire, Red Hood and The Outlaws after they teleported away from Kal to escape him from near Pluto to Earth, while using Tamaranian cloaking technology to boot (in Red Hood And The Outlaws issue 14; that means Supes is so fast that he can appear a moment behind people who teleported away from him---even though he had to take time to find his way around technology that hid them from him first!)---any "advantage" Surfer has over Kal in this area is slim to none. So the notion that Kal will just stand around and LET Surfer do whatever he wants to do is at best, wishful thinking; it's just as likely he'll be too occupied trying to block FTL fists to his face to be able to concentrate enough to try any of his tricks.
Superman would not be "screwed" when he went back to solid form---a morals off Kal could pass his arm through Radd, re solidify, and vibrate him to shards (as Kal did to the Cyborg Superman during the "Return of Superman" mini series), and if Surfer went intangible too, so what? That's a stalemate, and no advantage for Radd. And again, any red sun or kryptonite poisoning attempts are predicated with the notion that Kal will just stand around and LET Radd do them. Highly unlikely (and in the case of Red Sun "attacks", again, all that does is cut off Kal's power source, but considering how much power he has stored up, he'll be able to fight for QUITE a while-again, keep in mind there are TWO people involved in this battle, and Superman is NOT just going to float around and do nothing while Surfer does whatever he wants to do). Hitting Kal with Red Sun radiation---even turning a sun completely red does not make the Kryptonian INSTANTLY DROP to the floor screaming!
The Parasite is an arch enemy of Superman, and as for Meggadon-to stop Meggadon, Orion of the New Gods teleported via Boom Tube into heart of this sentient construct---and was drained, absorbed, and nearly killed, so that is example enough of who it has drained (not to mention it was responsible for killing many of the Old Gods, the precursors of the modern New Gods).
Since people tend to drift off if a post is too long, I'll stop for now and come right back.
@mrhamwallet: To conclude, I notice you asked about the Eradicator's qualifications---even though I named SEVERAL TP's that Superman resisted. Not cool---don't willfully ignore evidence to get the results you want. Oh, speaking about yet another example of Kal resisting TP that I forgot to mention: getting back to Maggedon, this being was capable of psionically controlling large amounts of people to do its bidding from great distances---including Injustice Society members General Eiling, Queen Bee (despite the fact that she is a being who knows a thing or two about controlling people) and leader Lex Luthor. Kal, despite being in the very HEART of this nightmare, resisted his mental assault and as mentioned, went on to defeat it. So after all this, if you ignore this to try to focus on Eradicator, that would seem to be (I don't know for CERTAIN, I can't read your mind) an attempt to get around evidence that shows the "cinch win" you thought was evident in this category is just not there.
Now again, I have readily admitted, because of his powers, that Surfer can beat Superman (anything is possible in a random encounter). With the evidence presented here, Superman has the stuff to resist Surfer's attacks-and I think it is time for you to concede that it is just as probable Superman can win as well.
Matchups are really poor, most are stomps honestly.
@theonewhoknows: "If I was "biased", I would not state-UP FRONT-that it is legit that Surfer can win, and in fact I would have "no problem" if it was depicted happening. "Bias" has nothing to do with my decisions---I go where the feats, facts, stats and logic takes me. Because I present documentation that a character I advocate for wins a battle does not mean I have "bias"; people who claim that are often people who don't "like" that my evidence proves my case projecting their frustrated feelings on to me---something that is regrettable, but not my responsibility."
I've seen you debate for Superman often and no offence but it's clear your bias towards him. I'll admit I'm bias towards Surfer but I can admit when he loses and be realistic about him. Surfer beats Superman with little trouble, in a purely physical match up its debatable but here it isn't really.
"Surfer is NOT a "fair bit faster than Supes", ESPECIALLY in the use of COMBAT speed."
The gap in travel speed is almost immeasurable between the two, combat...well I'll get to that.
"Surfer is great shakes at fantastic TRAVEL super speed, but Kal uses COMBAT super speed a lot more."
Surfer has feats like entering the time stream under his own power and dominating the fight within it. He's fought and reacted to the Runner, an Elder of the universe, whilst they were both in motion at incredible speeds. He's also effortlessly outraced the pull of black holes. He's escaped being shackled and drained where a nanosecond more would have been the end of him, which shows his reactions are above nanosecond. He is not a great h2h fighter and he doesn't need to be, but it does not mean he isn't capable, he's blitzed Nova (with the full Nova force) before he could react before on more than one occasion. Characters like Quasar have commented on how much faster he is than himself. Hrs fought Red Shift in the heart of a black hole, so it's clear he was moving FTL.
"And considering Superman has feats like being able to outrace a photon (look up what a photon is if you don't recognize the significance of how fast that is) to it's target in the double sized "JLA: Heavens Ladder" and appear a micro second behind Starfire, Red Hood and The Outlaws after they teleported away from Kal to escape him from near Pluto to Earth, while using Tamaranian cloaking technology to boot (in Red Hood And The Outlaws issue 14; that means Supes is so fast that he can appear a moment behind people who teleported away from him---even though he had to take time to find his way around technology that hid them from him first!)---any "advantage" Surfer has over Kal in this area is slim to none."
All of those feats are travel speed and don't come close to those of Surfers travel speed.
"So the notion that Kal will just stand around and LET Surfer do whatever he wants to do is at best, wishful thinking; it's just as likely he'll be too occupied trying to block FTL fists to his face to be able to concentrate enough to try any of his tricks."
Superman may have great combat speed but SS has shown reactions that could deal with that on numerous occasions. He's also deliberately tanked hits from characters like Hulk purely because he knew they would not hurt and has effortlessly restrained Rhino with one hand. So physically he is at least a match for Superman...not that it really matters here. So as long as he can react to them, which I believe we've established he is more than capable of he can just go intangible.
"Superman would not be "screwed" when he went back to solid form---a morals off Kal could pass his arm through Radd, re solidify, and vibrate him to shards (as Kal did to the Cyborg Superman during the "Return of Superman" mini series),"
Not if Surfer is intangible he can't, and even so Surfer has control over his own atoms and can heal himself. You're assuming a morals off Radd would let Kal do that. This is where your bias kicks in, you act like Surfer has no chance of landing an attack (especially drain/mm) because Superman won't just sit there and let him but Radd will?
"and if Surfer went intangible too, so what? That's a stalemate, and no advantage for Radd."
Maybe but not necessarily, Radd has a whole host of other powers to damage Superman.
"And again, any red sun or kryptonite poisoning attempts are predicated with the notion that Kal will just stand around and LET Radd do them."
Since Radd has travel speed feats that dwarf Superman's and has reacted at such speeds I do not believe Superman has much say in the matter. He could even drag him through the time stream into a red sun. Something the Surfer will not even notice, but that will put Superman at a distinct disadvantage.
"Highly unlikely (and in the case of Red Sun "attacks", again, all that does is cut off Kal's power source, but considering how much power he has stored up, he'll be able to fight for QUITE a while-again,"
I believe it's been shown to affect him more greatly than you're letting on but tbf I'd have to check. However, whilst fighting in a red sun and being drained only a fool would put any money on Supes.
"keep in mind there are TWO people involved in this battle,"
I am, are you? The difference is Surfer basically has all of Superman's powers and much more which can be devastating to Kal, whereas Kal can only rely on physical strength.
"and Superman is NOT just going to float around and do nothing while Surfer does whatever he wants to do)."
But Surfer is?
"Hitting Kal with Red Sun radiation---even turning a sun completely red does not make the Kryptonian INSTANTLY DROP to the floor screaming!"
I never said it does, but it's a major disadvantage which a bloodlusted Surfer can and likely will use against him, it also makes your 50/50 argument highly improbable.
"The Parasite is an arch enemy of Superman, and as for Meggadon-to stop Meggadon, Orion of the New Gods teleported via Boom Tube into heart of this sentient construct---and was drained, absorbed, and nearly killed, so that is example enough of who it has drained (not to mention it was responsible for killing many of the Old Gods, the precursors of the modern New Gods)."
I won't lie I'm not overly knowledgeable about Orion but from what I've seen he's massively inconsistent. It seems most would put Superman above Orion too.
"To conclude, I notice you asked about the Eradicator's qualifications"
Because I'm not to familiar with him...
"---even though I named SEVERAL TP's that Superman resisted. Not cool---"
Refer to above, not unreasonable.
"don't willfully ignore evidence to get the results you want."
I'm not, but considering Despero had his pants pulled down and was unwillingly dominated by MMH I'm not impressed there. Protex was also bested by MMH was he not? Iirc his actual mind control isn't anything special, and some of his telepathic abilities did work on Kal. Admittedly I did miss captain comet and again I am unfamiliar. However, going solely by Protex and Despero fir now yes I'd argue SS has better telepathy. Thanos has some of the best to defense in the marvel universe and the Surfer *morals on) bested him...so I'm led to believe morals off Surfer would make short work of Clark.
"Oh, speaking about yet another example of Kal resisting TP that I forgot to mention: getting back to Maggedon, this being was capable of psionically controlling large amounts of people to do its bidding from great distances---including Injustice Society members General Eiling, Queen Bee (despite the fact that she is a being who knows a thing or two about controlling people) and leader Lex Luthor. Kal, despite being in the very HEART of this nightmare, resisted his mental assault and as mentioned, went on to defeat it."
Fairly impressive but still, ask yourself if MMH could dominate Supes using telepathy...if your answer is yes it seems we can move past this, if your answer is no I must ask why?
"So after all this, if you ignore this to try to focus on Eradicator, that would seem to be (I don't know for CERTAIN, I can't read your mind) an attempt to get around evidence that shows the "cinch win" you thought was evident in this category is just not there."
It seems I have given good reason as to why I still believe tp is a viable, of not instant, win for Surfer...especially morals off.
"With the evidence presented here, Superman has the stuff to resist Surfer's attacks-and I think it is time for you to concede that it is just as probable Superman can win as well."
No, I think it's more than reasonable to believe Surfer is still the dominant force in this fight. If it were purely a physical fight I'd probably concede that it's closer to 60/40 in favour of Superman although I'd say that fight could go either way. However, due to the abilities of both characters Surfer takes down Superman rather easily imo. Feel free to continue to try and persuade me otherwise but I'd rather you avoided your personal jabs, they were honest mistakes.
@mrhamwallet: Once again, your describing my stating Superman's attributes, and how they allow him to win a prospective battle as "bias" is incorrect, so since that is the case there is no "offense" to be taken. The only people who think clinically detailing how a character wins their battle is showing "bias" are just upset because the information shows their fave could or would lose, and there is nothing I can do about that. I admit all the time that characters-even those I "like"-would lose (as indicated in THIS VERY THREAD, unlike you who are stating, despite massive evidence of Superman countering every trick of Surfers', that Radd would beat Superman "rather easily")--- so the "bias" claim is quite simply not valid. Because someone doesn't agree with your assessment of who wins a battle does not mean "bias" is involved. Having said that, a close look at your last post shows that you truly are trying to be objective (an increasingly ever more rare quality on this site, sadly) despite an admitted bias for Surfer, and as you also admit there is a lot you don't know about Superman, you are showing good faith, so I will continue.
First, to show my own good faith, let me state that, upon re-reading JLA issue 41, it seems that Kal did not break free of Maggedon COMPLETELY on his own---J'ohnn J'onzz cut through Maggedon's control (a pretty impressive TP feat, and I mention it for a specific reason I will get to soon) and encouraged him to fight the control. This helped Kal to go the rest of the way himself, and eventually defeat the creature. Could he have done it on his own, fast enough to not get dealt with? Can't honestly say for sure, but it is still impressive that he broke free and staved off Maggedon's attempts to mentally and physically defeat Kal---eventually suffering defeat itself.
As for speed, Surfer simply does not have a HUUUUUGE advantage there, if at ALL. I thought the examples I gave would be sufficient, but as for more: your somewhat dismissing of them as just "travel" feats is not quite relevant, because Desaad-Darkseid's chief scientist/torturer-after extensive study of Kal, stated to Darkseid that there was basically no difference between his travel and combat/ reflex speeds; in other words when he fights, when he chooses to, he can swing as fast as he flies. During a battle between the JLA and Felix Faust, it is shown that Superman can move AND see things in nano seconds. He BLITZED Ultra Man-his Earth 3 counterpart who has all his powers-and took him down using pressure points (with them being roughly the same, it was like two humans fighting, and one of them getting multiple pressure point strikes before they could react). It doesn't take him long to not just travel, but also move at nano second speeds (as shown when he instantly matched Wally West Flash's speeds so they could talk privately; everything around them was like a statue as they did so). Superman uses combat speed WAAAAAAY more than Surfer---so anyone who states-FOR SURE-that Surfer will be able to do anything before Kal can do unto him is-well-showing "bias". This is what I mean when I say it is folly to think that Supes will just stand around and LET Radd do whatever he wants---not to say it isn't POSSIBLE that Radd could do it, just that is not a CINCH. It is not necessary to make pithy comments like "Oh, and Surfer will?" because that is NOT what I was claiming (as evidenced, once again, by my stating UP FRONT that Surfer could win).
And Red Sun radiation "attacks", as I mentioned are just not the threat you think it is. As I said even "dragging him into a red sun" simply cuts off the source of his recharging his full power, but the power stored up will allow him to go a LOOOONG time. And---hmmmm, this post is getting long. I'll break it up and come right back with more, including TP!
@mrhamwallet: To continue, Kryptonite is not an instant win, not only for the reasons I stated (and as demonstrated when, in Adventures Of Superman issue 609, he survived a nuke while simultaneously covered in Metallo's Kryptonite dust during a battle with a group of villians that included Mongul, the Master Jailer and Bizarro) but, only kryptonite from Kal's particular universe hurts him. So if they were fighting in the Marvel Universe, or a neutral one, it is probable that Surfer couldn't create the correct kind anyway.
And as for TP---Despero, as far as I know, has only been defeated by J'ohnn ONCE (with a special trick that the Martian couldn't duplicate again). In that same JLA issue I mentioned earlier where Superman resisted Despero's TP (while also fighting the villain PHYSICALLY)---this was after Despero took over the entire JLA, INCLUDING powerful telepaths Aquaman AND J'ohnn! Earlier in the story, Aquaman fought Despero solo mentally and physically (sending sea creatures including great white sharks) and was looking good; Manhunter joined him in the battle, then the scene switched to other matters. When it came back to them, J'ohnn and Arthur were taken over (with glowing eyeball symbols on their foreheads that illustrated the control). Yet later on, during a final battle Superman resisted Despero. So Kal resisted someone who dominated the JLA, INCLUDING their top TPS, Aquaman and J'ohnn. And to answer your question of could "MMH dominate Superman using telepathy"---it's possible, but in Adventures Of Superman issue 642, when Manhunter-at the request of Lois Lane, who wanted to find out why Kal had been acting strangely lately (part of a DC wide "Countdown to Crisis" story arc)---Superman FORCED J'OHNN J'ONZZ out of his mind. That's not conjecture---a suprised J'ohnn STATED Kal did this, as well.There are only a handful of people who can resist J'ohnn for a moment, much less do THAT. And just to throw in a couple more TPs Kal has resisted-Hector Hammond, who is an EXTREMELY powerful TP and one of Hal Jordan's arch enemies (he was featured in the unfortunately HORRIBLE Green Lantern movie that didn't do the villain justice) and Karshon the Shark, a powerful human/creature hybrid who besides mental domination (which Karshon utilizes even further because he increases the natural fear most people have of sharks three fold) levitates at rapid speeds, matter manipulates, and fires energy bolts with his mind. He was a regular foe of other heroes as well, including Hal Jordan Green Lantern and Aquaman, and Supes defied his mental powers and beat him. So again, after Kal resisting all these TPs-including the likes of Maggedon, Despero and the Martian Manhunter-if you continue to state that Surfer's TP is somehow more "special" than ALL of them, and that this is a "cinch", or even "likely" win for Surfer using this tactic---then THAT would be "bias".
Oh, almost forgot (there is SO much to discuss, it's hard to detail it all)---you mentioned Surfer's involvement with Black Holes, and that Supes can only defeat Radd physically. Not true, and I'll discuss that presently. First, concerning black holes: Superman resisted the pull of a black hole that BY SUPRISE in space opened up directly below (inches) from his feet (and he was fighting at the time, yet he withstood it even though it was an ambush)! This was sprung on him by an advanced alien (H'tros) war technology in Action Comics Annual number 7. Not to mention in the double sized "JLA/JSA-Virtue/Vice" he went through a black hole, there is another instance of him combining his faster than light speed and prodigious strength to pull out of a black hole (I can't remember the comic issue number, but there have been scans of it used repeatedly in several threads on the "Vine) and in JLA issue 77 he held a minature black hole in the palm of his hand while in the JLA Watchtower as his amazed team mates looked on. So Surfer has nothing on Kal regarding black holes. And as for ways Supes can beat Radd besides merely brawling with him:
In Avengers Annual 16, which featured a grim game between the combined might of the West and East Coast Avengers fighting for the Grandmaster against Death's Legion Of The Dead, the galaxy level threat Korvac faced the Surfer (who, aware of this cosmic trouble, had come to warn the Avengers and get their aid to deal with it). During their battle, Korvac, in a devastating display of his power, by stripping the cosmic armor off of Norrin, reveals that underneath the shiny exterior (the Zenn-La native wasn't BORN in his present state, Galactus IMPOSED it on him) there is the VERY vulnerable Radd. Norin was soon killed (although to Radd's credit, before he succumbed he guided his board, where he and Korvac were fighting into the "life bomb" the two were fighting to have control over, killing them both). Surfer, and other Avengers that were "killed" during the battles (it's a LOOOONG story) obviously were restored at the end. But the point---since under that exterior there is the humanoid Radd, his brain is vulnerable. Since Superman has used strategy against opponents around his power level as often as he has used punching (against foes including the Parasite, the Galactic Golem, Vartox, Mongul, Yeti, Darkseid, Metallo, the super villain team The Elite, and many more) he can combine his telescopic and x-ray vision (which have allowed him to see on the subcellular level like when he analyzed Bizarro's cellular structure, the MOLECULAR level, as when he analyzed the molecular composition of Magpie's acid gas, and, in "JLA: Earth 2" graphic novel see the abnormalities at "every eighth angstrom"-the size of an atom-in the DNA of the anti-matter Earth's version of Lex Luthor)---this means that he will see the SLIGHTEST trace of any humanoid part of Radd, and focus his heat vision through his eyes and fry his brain to ash (with morals on, Kal did similar things to Doomsday and the Elite's TP master Manchester Black- with Black, he just burnt out enough of his brain that allowed the villain to use his TP in Action Comics issue 775; with morals off, he could KILL Surfer). Not to mention, if they are fighting in or anywhere near the DC universe, Kal can, while pummeling him with the combo of speed and power he used to destroy that "unbreakable" Imperiex Probe, speed Surfer into the Source Wall in the blink of an eye (like he did to Darkseid in World's Finest issue 13; even Radd can't escape from it) or stun him long enough (about a nano second or two) to get the Phantom Zone Projector and send him there to rot. If even lesser beings can strike Surfer and send him flying and yelling in pain (Rhino) leave him incapacitated and laying underneath a pile of rubble temporarily (the Thing) ALSO strike him and send him flying (the Hulk) and leave an actual dent in his head (Thor and his hammer)---then the Man Of Steel would have NO PROBLEM leaving him stunned or otherwise out of the way long enough for Kal to get the weapon and use it.
I haven't said all the above as "personal jabs"---just presenting evidence in as clinical a manner as I can. I once again state in a random encounter that Surfer can win. But it is also true that Superman is just as likely to win, too.
I gotcha....BUMP...
Morals off? Kal doesn't last a second and Thanos takes down the rest.
Superman vs. Silver Surfer: Norrin
Mon-el vs. Hyperion: Hyperion
Martian Manhunter vs. Gladiator: MMH
Starfire vs. Gamora: Starfire...not impress with current Gamora...but old school Gamora was a beast and could definitely get some wins...possibly the majority....
Big Barda vs. Thundra: not sure...
Saturn Girl vs. Moondragon: not sure
Darkseid vs. Thanos: could go either way...
Team Marvel wins.
@theonewhoknows: Are you seriously arguing for Superman in this? Really?
Red Sun Radiation cuts Supes from.his source. He still might have some power, but eventually it will wear off. While it is getting weaker, Norrin can easily blitz him or trap him inside his board (like he did with Captain Marvel). Clark is not strong enough to fight the likes of Surfer without a constant power supply.
Good TP argument. It doesn't matter since Norrin has so many ways of defeating Clark.
I don't see why Norrin can't drain Superman. He has the capability of draining Gladiator, who's power source is much more complicated than Clark's solar power. Surfer has drained Hulks gamma radiation numerous times. Surfer has even drained sunlight and an entire star (Clark's source!) In seconds. He's drained infinite amounts of cosmic flames FROM Firelord, drains Uni Lord's attacks that was powerful enough to destroy a solar system.
You have proved that Clark can resist magic transmutation. Yet that has nothing to do with Surfers planetary molecular manipulation. With this power, Surfer has recreated gravity, atmosphere, and oxygen. He has recreated an entire city. He has rebuilt Beta Ray Bills hammer and made Obliterator (Elder of the Universe)'s weapons harmless. He has atomized Carnage and atomized Nebula's armor. He has manipulated complicated chemicals and poison. Norrin can even manipulate ORGANIC matter, he has manipulated Jack of Hearts internal organs before. How is Supes gonna respond to that?
Surfer can augment his strength to match even the Hulks. His blasts can oneshot planets. Does Clark have planetary+ durability feats? What will he do if Surfer absorbs his energy potentially bust a solar system? He has done it with Uni Lord.
Surfer is WAY faster than Superman. He can cross entire galaxies in seconds, but let's not talk about travel speed. Surfer has microsecond feats and nanosecond feats when it is necessary to do a task in that amount of time, but it doesn't matter because Surfer can break the time barrier. At his fastest Norrin will be outside of time, therefore reacting to everything Clark can throw at him. Good luck with that, solar battery.
I like how you bring up a galaxy level threat Korvac to downplay Surfer. He is galaxy level, of course Surfers body will be nothing to him. Superman is no where near Korvac, and if his x ray can't go through lead what makes you think it will go through Surfer's cosmic skin? A extremely durable skin that has only been scanned by a GALAXY LEVEL threat?
Surfer was holding back with Rhino,Thor, and Thing. He is bloodlusted here. Last time I checked Norrin got tired of Rhino and made him beg for mercy. Same thing with Thing. Norrin has been shown the power to one shot Thor and Iron Man. Not to mention Thors hammer hits way harder than Superman's punches. Has Superman ever dazed a Galactus with his attacks? I don't think so.
In conclusion, Superman has no defense in getting his solar power drained. Not only is Norrin a top notch energy manipulator, but he has drained sunlight before and stars. His speed is superior to Superman and he can trap him inside his board. Norrin can mess with Clark's internal body or just simply blast him. Forgot to mention Surfer has time manipulation, and nothing is stopping him from killing Clark as a baby. Oh and cosmic awareness. This is just the beginning, there are so many things Surfer is capable of.
@thetruthiii: @agent41: @myerlanski:Myerlanski, thanks SO MUCH for participating. Agent41, it's like I said before---in my DC vs. Marvel: GIRL FIGHTS!!! Thread, it was a landslide for Barda. I guess different sets of people produce different sets of responses!
Thetruthiii, how can Kal "not last a second" when in my posts (starting with post number 19) I show that Superman can match every single one of Surfer's tricks (with multiple examples for just about each one)? Check out what I have written and see. Not to mention, you are SERIOUSLY lowballing Darkseid (and the rest of team Superman, for that matter) if you think Thanos can solo them!
@theonewhoknows: always a pleasure my friend....
"Superman vs. Silver Surfer - SS easily
Mon-el vs. Hyperion - Hyperion
Martian Manhunter vs. Gladiator - MMH
Starfire vs. Gamora - Starfire
Big Barda vs. Thundra - Thundra
Saturn Girl vs. Moondragon - Moondragon
Darkseid vs. Thanos (no Infinity Gauntlet) -Thanos
Marvel win thanks to SS and Thanos"
Realised I made a mistake, I meant Big Barda not Thundra it doesn't change the outcome.
Superman vs. Silver Surfer
Mon-el vs. Hyperion
Martian Manhunter vs. Gladiator
Starfire vs. Gamora
Big Barda vs. Thundra
Saturn Girl vs. Moondragon
Darkseid vs. Thanos (no Infinity Gauntlet)
Being outnumbered, the remainder of the Marvel team stomps.
Maninthemountain, to continue---
Strength Augmentation: "Surfer can augment his strength to match even the Hulk's"? COOL! Since Superman is superior to Jade Jaws (in addition to the feats I have already mentioned, Kal had the strength and power to smash through the Soulfire Darkseid version of the Lord Of Apokolyps-this version was the result of Darkseid usurping the power of the Source itself onto his body ), if Surfer wants to expand to Hulk's level and catch a morals off, super speed, vicious beat down, more power to him. And as for Surfer's blasts being able to "one shot planets" and "potentially bust a solar system"---well, here's where we get to that "more on that soon" portion of my posts that I was referring to earlier. It appears you either have a bit of reading comprehension difficulties, or you tend to SKIM, but not READ and COMPREHEND posts---why else would you, despite my patiently detailing (in post 20) Superman's tanking trauma that could destroy half a GALAXY (and SMILING without any ill effects WHATSOEVER) come right back and talk about Surfer being able to one shot PLANETS, as if that would be a big deal to Superman, or mention energy that could "potentially bust a solar system" when I ALREADY MENTIONED Kal resisting blasts from the Imperiex Probe that could VAPORIZE a solar system, ALSO with no ill effects? You're not willfully ignoring information to get the results you want, are you? I certainly HOPE not!
SPEED: Again, I have to wonder about your reading comprehension; I detailed in posts 24 and 28 examples of how Kal is a nano second combat and reaction time super speed being, yet you come right back and claim that, because Surfer has "microsecond and nano second feats", this means that Radd is "WAY" faster than Supes"! If they are BOTH nano second super speedsters, than how can Surfer be "WAY" faster than Kal???? I guess that, like the other abilities of Norrin that I have displayed (with MULTIPLE examples) of Superman resisting, you somehow think Surfer's nano second speed is somehow more "special" than Kal's nano second speed because---well, just BECAUSE. To paraphrase YOUR statement, "Good Luck with that", Power Cosmic guy.
The Korvac/Surfer Fight: Where in the world did you get the idea that, because I factually, clinically stated how their battle revealed that Surfer's brain is vulnerable underneath that shiny armor is a way to "downplay" Radd? I could see if I had said "That loser Surfer couldn't even stand up to a punk like Korvac and got his butt handed to him" or something---but I said nothing of the kind! The point seemed to have sailed over your head; I was not referring to that battle to show that Surfer was "weak" in some way, but to show that Korvac's actions demonstrated a weakness that a morals off Kal can exploit! Superman doesn't have to be "no where near Korvac" to use his x-ray, telescopic, and heat vision powers to attack Radd in the manner I mentioned in post 29. And your mentioning that the Kryptonians's "x-ray can't go through lead" is irrelevant and somewhat non sensible. As far as I know, there is no other substance that Kal's vision can't see through (even futuristic substances he encountered in the 30th century in adventures with The Legion Of Superheroes), so because it can't see through lead doesn't mean it can't see through Radd. No, the more likely scenario is that Kal's x-ray vision (which can be honed to the levels I gave several examples of in post 29) will work in the way I mentioned, and will result in defeat for Norrin!
Lesser Beings Affecting Surfer: Once again you missed the point in stating the outcomes of the various weaker-than-Superman beings that I mentioned who batted Surfer around. I didn't mention them to say that they could "beat" Radd; I mentioned them to point out that they all-regardless of the final outcomes of the battles-were able to impact and/or otherwise distract Surfer for various amounts of time. The point still stands-if lesser being like THEM could get Radd off of them for ANY amount of time, then Superman will DEFINITELY be able to get Norrin off his back (a nano second or two is all that would be needed) to, if they are fighting in or somewhere near the DC universe to stick Radd on the Source Wall, or place him in the Phantom Zone to rot. Get it? The point is NOT that the Thing, Rhino, et. al could BEAT Radd, it's that the shots the likes of THEM could get on Radd are like CHILD'S PLAY to the damage Kal could get in, and impact Surfer long enough for Superman to implement the strategies I mentioned.
Time Travel: Superman time travels too, he can go right behind Surfer and follow him wherever he goes. Or, if he gets the idea first, if they are fighting in or anywhere near the Marvel universe he can use his telescopic and x-ray vision to peruse any government facility (or for that matter any phone or library) get the goods on Surfer in nano seconds (Superman has perused super thick, entire whole BOOKS in no time flat),and travel back in time and kill him when he was just Norrin Radd.
So-"in conclusion"-there is literally no trick that Surfer has done that Kal has not matched, multiple times. So with all this evidence, it is sheer folly to claim that-FOR SURE-Supes can't do unto Surfer before Radd can do unto him. Due to his powers, it's certainly POSSIBLE for Surfer to win---and it is just as possible for Superman to achieve the win, too.
AAAAG! somehow, the first part of my post was EATEN, of something!!! (GRRRRRR)!!! Now I'll have to do it again!!!
@maninthemountain: The order of these posts (because of some unknown issue) is backwards; THIS post should have come in before post 42. But anyway: To paraphrase your first question in your last post---After all the evidence I layed out in prior posts, are YOU seriously STILL arguing that Surfer can just walk all over Superman? Really?
SERIOUSLY??
Life's trials and tribulations prevented me from responding sooner---but now that I have some time, let me deal with everything you typed, point by point.
Red Sun: Despite the examples I showed in post 20-one of which included the man taking IMMERSION into a Red Sun-you are right back talking like this is an INSTANT defeat for Superman (sigh). You are correct in stating it cuts off his method to re charge---but you ran off the rails by stating that he'll only have "some" power, and that he'll be "getting weaker". For the umpteenth time---it takes a long, LONG time for it to even BEGIN to "wear off"! I would have thought the prior examples (detailed in post 20) would have pointed this out, but to add more---in Superman issue 167, after untold WEEKS of being on a planet with a Red Sun, Superman still had the ability to power Jor-El's old PLANET moving ion engines (the planet had a mass of SIXTEEN TIMES that of Earth's). For perspective, the weaker N52 Superman had the power to pull out of a black hole, then fly SIXTY DAYS straight from another solar system back to ours (shrugging off all the pressure, vacuum, and various forms of fatal radiation during his trek)---with NO SOLAR replinishing of his power; he also bench pressed the equivalent of the Earth for FIVE DAYS STRAIGHT while he was underground and away from sunlight). And again, this is a WEAKER version of Supes. Do you get it now? Superman can be cut away from his source, but it takes a long, LONG time for all that power to even BEGIN to run out! So he is NOT going to INSTANTLY DROP to the ground because of the introduction of a Red Sun---and he will therefore have NO PROBLEM mounting a counter attack on Radd in the meantime (what, do you think this FTL'er is just going to float around and LET Radd do whatever he wants during this time?? Maybe in an episode of "Maninthemountain's Fantasy Of How The Battle Would Go"---but NOT in an ACTUAL battle). So no---Norrin is NOT going to "blitz" someone who (as I detailed in posts 24 and 28) has the speed feats Kal has. And as for being able to "trap him inside his board", this is highly unlikely because (A) Superman has shown the combination of durability (tanking galaxy and solar system destroying trauma with no problem) and strength (lifting things thought to be IMPOSSIBLE to budge, like the Spectre, who weighs as much as eternity/infinity, and, with Captain Marvel, lift the immeasurable weight of The Book Of Infinite Pages-Kal's Earth Three counterpart Ultra Man lifted it solo, so there's no reason to believe Kal couldn't do that too) to be able to bust out from the board (you can't possibly think that it takes more strength to lift, push, or in some other way get the board off him than to lift, push, or otherwise budge the Spectre or The Book Of Infinite Pages); or (B) if The Man Of Steel didn't feel like exerting himself to that degree he could just use his ability to get to an intangible state (as detailed in post 19) and pass on through the board to escape it. So contrary to what you stated, Kal IS "strong enough to fight the likes of Surfer without a constant power supply".
TP: Glad you conceded the TP resistance matter (but I give just as many and valid examples of Supes resisting all the OTHER Surfer attack methods, yet you continued to argue for THEM). Oh, well.
Energy Draining: The question isn't "why Norrin can't drain Superman". The question is, "Can Norrin INSTANTLY drain Superman enough so that he couldn't mount an immediate counter attack"? Doubtful, since the planetary and galaxy level energy drainers I mentioned in posts 19 and 24 couldn't; I just don't see anything that is more "special" in Radd's draining abilities than theirs. And all the people you mentioned Radd draining are not more impressive than Superman, even Uni Lord. Surfer draining "attacks that was powerful enough to destroy a solar system" is nice and all, but Superman has weathered attacks at that level with NO PROBLEM, so Surfer would have to bring a LOT better energy draining than THAT to the skirmish---and there is no evidence here that long before Radd could do that, he wouldn't get FTL blows to the face, or a get flash-frozen long enough to break up the process, or for Kal to turn intangible, or any of a number of ways for the energy draining process to be disrupted (again, there are TWO people in this fight, and Supes is not going to just stand there with a dull look on his face while Radd does whatever he wants to do)!
Molecular Manipulation: You are the first person who, after being informed of Superman resisting magic manipulation from such uber powerful beings (as detailed in post 20) to continue to try to imply that Surfer's molecule manipulation would accomplish-FOR SURE-what those other beings could not. "Transmutation" is a synonym for "manipulation"---they are virtually the same thing! Both Surfer and those Magic based beings manipulate, or transmute molecules into a different form, except they do it through magic and Surfer does it through science-specifically the Power Cosmic. If anything, it is far more difficult to resist MAGIC based molecule manipulation than it is SCIENCE-but the point is moot, because other examples of Superman resisting matter manipulation include in Superman issue 34, when he resisted it from the extremely powerful opponent Skyhook; and in the DC wide crossover series "Legends" when he resisted it from Darkseid's Omega Beams (the Omega Effect can create life or erase it from existence, dissipate and/or disperse molecules from an object or organism, or control the internal organs of an organism and even de-volve it). In fact, while attacking Kal this way, Darkseid says "I can attune the frequency of my energy blasts to your precise molecular structure, Superman!' Yet Supes resisted this and fought him (obviously, as he is still here). Due to his bio forcefield aura, incredible durability, immense will, and-if you will-SUPER control over his own molecules (as evidenced by his ability to will them to FTL speeds and beyond, or vibrate them to invisible and intangible states), Kal can resist molecular manipulation. So to answer your quesion, THAT is "how Supes gonna respond to that"---it not only proves he "can resist magic transmutation", he can resist transmutation or manipulation attacks against him, PERIOD. So just like the TP examples, after all these incidents of Superman resisting Matter/Molecule Manipulation/Transmutation, anyone who still claims-FOR SURE-that Surfer will be able to accomplish what ALL those beings were not, is guilty of willfully ignoring information because they "like" Surfer better, or because once they take a position they won't change it no matter WHAT new info they may receive.
Well, this is what was supposed to be read BEFORE the prior post, but whatever. I not only think Supes can win, but as @chimeroid says, I think it is incorrect that Thanos WITHOUT the Infinity Gauntlet can just walk all over Darkseid. I have several reasons I can give, but @termiteone4ever@nefarious@god_of_wrath@speedster101@evil_incarnate@dccomicsrule2011@elderskaar@misterwhisper@outside_85 and anybody else---what do you think?
Thanos solos maybe J'onn might have a shot
Hmmm---can this thread squeeze some more juice (with knowledgeable people weighing in)? @acrokat@shaokahn@evil_incarnate@zhurong@dre_savage@leonkarlen123@omnicrono@dontevenblink@justthatkid@allstarsuperman@battle123axe and anyone else---which team of aliens takes it?
@theonewhoknows: ShaoKahn, Zhurong, and Leonkarlen are permabanned so you probably won't get an answer.
@mysticmedivh: Hmmm---was wondering why I had not heard from them in a while, especially Zhurong who was always a reliable poster for my threads, and was always respectful even when we disagreed. Most disappointing to learn this person is gone.
@theonewhoknows: Just getting done with the work day and about to get messed up....so I'll post my thoughts then when it'll be more fun for me. :)
@evil_incarnate: Ha ha, I hear that. No worries, hope you will indeed respond when you can, at your pleasure.
@reno117, would you care to post your thoughts on who would win in this thread? You seem to be very knowledgeable about Superman---even if you don't agree that he could beat Surfer, what do you think of the arguments that I put up to advocate for The Man Of Steel winning against Radd? I'm curious.
Some of these math-ups shouldn't be match-ups.
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