Black Cat is actually quite the fighter. She could likely beat Winter Soldier and Nightwing in my opinion, and perhaps even beat Moon Knight with some cleverness and trickery. She managed to fight well against the Lizard...who outclasses everyone here. Not saying her team wins or loses, but don't underestimate Felicia.
Bucky Barnes already manage to beat Crossbones in at least 3 different ocasions. In a solo fight, against him an Sin, and the other against him, Sin and Suicide Squad. Winter Soldier can easily dispose him from this battle. He also possess marksmanship feats against both Daredevil and Hawkeye so I doubt Green Arrow would succeed against him or any other of his teammates considering they are all bullet timers and possess many agility feats. Team 1 is also quite superior at overall H2H combat and equipment.
@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.
Black Cat is actually quite the fighter. She could likely beat Winter Soldier and Nightwing in my opinion, and perhaps even beat Moon Knight with some cleverness and trickery. She managed to fight well against the Lizard...who outclasses everyone here. Not saying her team wins or loses, but don't underestimate Felicia.
@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.
Dodging Spider-Man is something almost every character in the Marvel U has done at this point, and something that Nightwing would be able to do as well considering he's the most agile human in the DC Universe.
I just don't see Black Cat dishing out anything he hasn't taken before.
@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.
Considering Felicia was stomped recently by SpOck its safe to say she isn't in Peters league.
As for your other scans as said Creed is a jobber and I'm pretty sure he wasn't established to have his mutant abilities at the time. IIRC Peter beat Creed by webbing his face, and when Creed ripped the webbing off he scratched his face and had to go to the hospital. Needless to say classic pre-wolverine villain sabretooth sucked.
The Lizard scans are PIS. Peter can barely hurt Connors and he has shown at times bullets do bounce off his skin. She shouldn't be able to hurt him.
@jashro44: right are we sure the SpOck scans werent PIS because Felica has moved fast enough to dodge Venom a few times
Spider Man
Spider Man again
Vulture
yeah i think its safe to say she should be able to compete with Spider Man (not saying she wins but saying she should be able to compete)... also with the Lizard Scans Spider Man uses blunt force in his attacks, Felica was using slashing attacks (which he hasnt done as well against if IIRC)
i also see no reason why these above mentioned feats would not put her above Nightwing or Winter Soldier, and if shes smart moon knight.
@kidman560: Eddie stomped her. She dodged one single shot of webbing back before Brock was established to be as fast as Peter. Even hand books back then had him labeled as slower than Peter and said he couldn't dodge bullets (this would all later change with Brocks later showings he would become significantly more impressive, I guess you can chalk that up to experience with the symbiote).
Vulture isn't in Peters league. He's given him some tough fights a few times but he's lost to less. Daredevil has also beaten vulture as well IIRC. He's not exactly a high end rogue.
As for your spider-man scan the first scan is from amazing spider-man 194 where Peter underestimated her and he even says he's trying to talk. This was also a younger and less experienced Peter. Your second she dodged a single attack and then kicked Peter once and got pinned to the ground pretty easily. Reacting to characters faster than you is not uncommon in comics, nightwing has reacted to the flash in motion for example. Not much of a stretch Felicia can do the same with Peter especially with her bad luck powers. This was likewise a younger and less experienced spider-man. Your next spider-man scan Peter didn't even try to fight. He even states she sucker punched him.
I know slashing and blunt damage aren't the same thing which is why I mentioned Lizard being bullet proof.
@jashro44: im not saying that Felicia is in the same league is Spider Man but Black Panther is isnt either... also for most of those scans she didnt have her bad luck powers either... as im sure you know her classic bad luck powers were hax lvl (which would be when most of those scans took place) i mean bullets were changing directions to avoid her and even the Blob couldnt do anything to her.
we didnt eactly see that lvl in any of those scans...
@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.
Dodging Spider-Man is something almost every character in the Marvel U has done at this point, and something that Nightwing would be able to do as well considering he's the most agile human in the DC Universe.
I just don't see Black Cat dishing out anything he hasn't taken before.
Jmarshmallow
unless Spider Man is actively trying to lose the fight no way in heck does he dodge spider man. i have attempted to make the same argument you have when i went through my nightwing phase... however Nightwing lacks a few things
1. the feats of agility to match Spider Man
2. Spider Sense
3. Spidey's perfect Equilibrium
4. Nightwing still peak human and Spider Man still super human (with the ability to catch bullets)
@jashro44: im not saying that Felicia is in the same league is Spider Man but Black Panther is isnt either... also for most of those scans she didnt have her bad luck powers either... as im sure you know her classic bad luck powers were hax lvl (which would be when most of those scans took place) i mean bullets were changing directions to avoid her and even the Blob couldnt do anything to her.
we didnt eactly see that lvl in any of those scans...
She had her bad luck powers in all the scans you posted except for the one where she sucker punched him. For example in one of the scans you posted Peters web shooters jammed up:
IN the amazing spider-man 194 one guns fell on Peter:
And heres the full fight of the other scans you uploaded:
Team 2, Black Cat as MVP. Crossbones is good enough to hold his own and Ollie is accurate and smart enough to strafe the battlefield, complicating the melee. Between his arrows and Felicia's acrobatics they can create a "web" of sorts and while the battle certainly won't be pretty, I see Bucky getting taken down by Felicia, Moon Knight getting brought down by Crossbones, and Nightwing being defeated by Green Arrow in a close and arduous fight. Team 2 has what it takes to win.
@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.
Considering Felicia was stomped recently by SpOck its safe to say she isn't in Peters league.
As for your other scans as said Creed is a jobber and I'm pretty sure he wasn't established to have his mutant abilities at the time. IIRC Peter beat Creed by webbing his face, and when Creed ripped the webbing off he scratched his face and had to go to the hospital. Needless to say classic pre-wolverine villain sabretooth sucked.
The Lizard scans are PIS. Peter can barely hurt Connors and he has shown at times bullets do bounce off his skin. She shouldn't be able to hurt him.
Agreed. Sabretooth did have his healing factor back then but the fact that he had to go to the hospital shows how weak it was. DD beat him back then too. I like Felicia but she's the weak link here without her luck powers.
She had her bad luck powers in all the scans you posted except for the one where she sucker punched him. For example in one of the scans you posted Peters web shooters jammed up
Wrong, her "Bad Luck" ability in early issues was simply prep, she would tamper with the environment and objects before the fight would begin and the set off the traps afterwards as needed, she only got the "real" bad luck powers much later.
Black Cat has been smashed into a wall repeatedly by Ock trying to kill her and then got back up again moments later
Black Cat has taken blows from many Meta's over the years, such as Rococo
Black Cat has kept up with Scorpion and managed to damage him whilst protecting a de-powered Pete
Black Cat has completely owned Tarantula
Black Cat has evaded just about all of Spider-Man major foes at one time or another (Ock, Rhino, Hydroman, Scorpion)
Black Cat has beaten Hydroman without her powers
and the thing is, there is very little contrary evidence to put her below the levels of these characters. Most of her poor showings were before she had her stats enhanced by her Tinkerer gear, which improves her strength and agility, and gives her enhanced senses.
Black Cat started out as a Spider-Man enemy, and she has a long-as-heck history of tagging him, and backing him up.
Black Cat has Vibro-Claws created by the Tinkerer,
She has been shown to be able to shred armored Spider-Slayers that Pete hasn't been able to even dent.
Fair enough. All though I just did a skim through that story line (I can give it a better read if need be) and lizard was struggling with vermin in the same storyline. I still feel he was being a tad under written based on that.
She kicked him back into a wall and then knocked a chandelier down on him before she got owned.
Brock was always portrayed as being stronger and faster than Pete from the start. Hand-books were just poorly researched.
What makes you say he was faster than Peter in early showings?
Vulture has beaten Daredevil, and in the rematch Daredevil was struggling until he led Vulture into pitch darkness.
Vulture did beat him at first however in the rematch daredevil said he stood there like a lump and let vulture hit him. Its arguable if that was because daredevil had a death wish at the time or if he was really just distracted (which he states later) and he also underestimated vulture by his own admission. But even then he was able to keep up with him is the main point.
Wrong, her "Bad Luck" ability in early issues was simply prep, she would tamper with the environment and objects before the fight would begin and the set off the traps afterwards as needed, she only got the "real" bad luck powers much later.
Your right. With that said that doesn't change the entire point. She still had to rely on the environment and such. And also Peters web shooters being jammed. These were things which did help her and this was a long time ago.
I don't think anyone is saying she is on par with Spider-Man when he's brutal & serious, just she can somewhat keep up with him
Ock blatantly sucker-punched her off a roof, hard, when she was in the middle of talking to him anyway
The initial blow she wasn't expecting yes but he did give her enough time to get back to her feet. And I think it was clear enough that it was a fight. And a lot of characters have kept up with spider-man over the years. Including moon knight IIRC. It doesn't usually make them anywhere near as fast as him.
Other than that
Black Cat has been smashed into a wall repeatedly by Ock trying to kill her and then got back up again moments later
Black Cat has taken blows from many Meta's over the years, such as Rococo
Black Cat has kept up with Scorpion and managed to damage him whilst protecting a de-powered Pete
Black Cat has completely owned Tarantula
Black Cat has evaded just about all of Spider-Man major foes at one time or another (Ock, Rhino, Hydroman, Scorpion)
Black Cat has beaten Hydroman without her powers
and the thing is, there is very little contrary evidence to put her below the levels of these characters. Most of her poor showings were before she had her stats enhanced by her Tinkerer gear, which improves her strength and agility, and gives her enhanced senses.
Black Cat started out as a Spider-Man enemy, and she has a long-as-heck history of tagging him, and backing him up.
Your referring to spectacular spider-man volume 1 issue 75 correct? Its not a bad feat
Lots of peak humans and such take hits from characters out of there weight class.
Which is impressive but I would say that there is a difference between fighting a skilled fighter and scorpion. Also scorpion is kind of a jobber.
Tarantula isn't too impressive.
Rhino and hydroman I don't recall to many major speed feats (rhino has surprised spider-man with his speed before so I guess thats something) but in general I don't think it would be impossible for anyone else here to dodge rhino. I might be forgetting something about hydroman though. Scorpion was mentioned above, and again are you referring to spectacular spider-man volume 1 issue 75? Didn't peter state Felicia was out her league against dock? She did dodge a couple of strikes but I would say that its not impossible for others to dodge a few hits from Otto. Its a good feat but I am not sure if its beyond team moon knights ability to replicate given their reaction feats.
Hydroman is a different type of enemy all together.
Not sure if Felicia has the showings against martial artists to really hang here.
Fair enough. All though I just did a skim through that story line (I can give it a better read if need be) and lizard was struggling with vermin in the same storyline. I still feel he was being a tad under written based on that.
Vermin is inconsistent, I'd say based on the time period, him standing up against (maybe injured) Lizard is not that outlandish
The problem with Vermin is that he started out as a Captain America villain, but then when the writer, J. M. DeMatteis moved over to Spider-Man he brought Vermin with him and just scaled him up to fight Spider-Man without any real explanation.
Vermin has given Spider-Man good fights more often than not, he nearly killed him H2H in Child Within and Kraven's First Hunt. In Kraven's First Hunt Vermin was already injured when he fought Pete, and Pete mentioned that he was "barely holding his own"
Also, Black Cat has at least gotten a hit on the Lizard on a separate occasion, in "Down Amongst the Dead Men"
What makes you say he was faster than Peter in early showings?
Just the way Venom tended to dominate Spider-Man, he seemed outright faster and stronger in his original appearances to me, Pete only won in the first appearance due to Venom stupidly wasting the Symbiote on making webbing to stick Spider-Man to a Bell.
Pete would tend to retreat, get ready for a counter-attack, but then Venom would already be there and take him by surprise etc etc.
Either way I'd say Venom was definitely noticeably above Spider-Man in stats during his first appearances.
The initial blow she wasn't expecting yes but he did give her enough time to get back to her feet. And I think it was clear enough that it was a fight. And a lot of characters have kept up with spider-man over the years. Including moon knight IIRC. It doesn't usually make them anywhere near as fast as him.
Depends how much damage the initial blow did, and she was still shaky and shocked afterwards.
Regardless, someone like Nightwing would not be doing any better in that circumstance anyway.
Vermin is inconsistent, I'd say based on the time period, him standing up against (maybe injured) Lizard is not that outlandish
The problem with Vermin is that he started out as a Captain America villain, but then when the writer, J. M. DeMatteis moved over to Spider-Man he brought Vermin with him and just scaled him up to fight Spider-Man without any real explanation.
Vermin has given Spider-Man good fights more often than not, he nearly killed him H2H in Child Within and Kraven's First Hunt. In Kraven's First Hunt Vermin was already injured when he fought Pete, and Pete mentioned that he was "barely holding his own"
Also, Black Cat has at least gotten a hit on the Lizard on a separate occasion, in "Down Amongst the Dead Men"
Fair enough on Vermin. Concerning the scan though with Felica hitting lizard it can be argued that was due to goblin and Gargan arguing. Your scan even says everybody is distracted.
Just the way Venom tended to dominate Spider-Man, he seemed outright faster and stronger in his original appearances to me, Pete only won in the first appearance due to Venom stupidly wasting the Symbiote on making webbing to stick Spider-Man to a Bell.
Pete would tend to retreat, get ready for a counter-attack, but then Venom would already be there and take him by surprise etc etc.
Either way I'd say Venom was definitely noticeably above Spider-Man in stats during his first appearances
I just reread some of the older issues. I agree that he was Peters superior and dominated all their fights (including the ones I'm going to reference now), however not all his stats were better. Peter did make a comment in amazing spider-man 346 that his experience and agility allowed him to counter one of venoms attacks, and in amazing spider-man 347 he said Eddie wasn't as nimble as he was. Granted he was gaining on Peter as well in amazing spider-man 346 but Peter also said that constantly turning his head was slowing him down as well. I'll admit this may not prove he is slower than Peter but I think it does at least support the hand books a bit.
You can argue that he was fast enough to tag Peter but Peter also wasn't use to fighting without his spider-sense. So that could be why. I mean we saw in Slotts run before Peter learned his way of the spider how different he was without his spider-sense.
Depends how much damage the initial blow did, and she was still shaky and shocked afterwards.
Regardless, someone like Nightwing would not be doing any better in that circumstance anyway.
Well we know it knocked out her tooth but on the other hand she was able to stand. Granted you are right she was shocked.
I agree. I mostly brought up the SpOck fight to show she wasn't quite in Peters league. Which is what I thought Kidman was saying. He clarified later though.
What are you basing her being out of her weight class on though?
Black Cat only ever fights low Meta's, as a Spidey character its her natural habitat, sometimes she wins, sometimes she loses.
You haven't really been providing counter evidence, just refuting what you've been shown.
I'm mostly basing her weight class on the fact she is low level enhanced. When I say weight class I'm talking about her overall physicals. Yes she can fight people who outclass her physically but she isn't in their league physically.
All though I'll admit I don't know much about Rococo. I was guessing she was around spider-man level and I guess I shouldn't have done that. So how strong is Rococo exactly?
As for counter evidence I'm not really against the idea of her fighting metahumans I'm just against the idea of some of these fights putting her above the people here. Scorpion, lizard, vulture are different kinds of enemies than martial artists are. I'm only really trying to refute the idea she's on Peters level. Granted I know you said she isn't on his level.
Yup, but the Felicia in that issue is far weaker than the one now, that is Black Cat with no enhancements at all.
Felicia wearing just an ordinary costume can take multiple blows from Ock, evade some attacks, carry a grown man one-handed etc
After that she got the Tinkerer gear which enhances her strength and agility.
Sure but her physicals haven't really gone up to spider-man level or anything to my knowledge. And moon knight did have a fight with felicia back then and did pretty well:
I think this may have been before her enhancements granted but even so. As for her durability its not like they can't hurt her. Nightwing has various gadgets like electrified batons and such, and bucky has the bionic arm. And obviously nightwing isn't as strong as dock ock but its not like he needs to be that strong to hurt her at all. And nightwing has been slammed against the wall by gorilla grodd in flash volume 2 issue 211 before and all though it wasn't repeated (I don't think it was) Grodd is quite a bit stronger than Dock Ock. That doesn't mean it takes grodd level strength to knock him out even in one hit. Nightwing may not be as strong as Otto's arms are but he has slammed KG beast face into concrete which created a mini crater, he's kicked Brutaal hard enough a car door went with him, etc.
I can dig up some physical feats for Bucky or moon knight if you want. I can't prove they're stronger than Dock Ock but I don't think I necessarily have to. I think due to the fact they have more showings against martial artists than Felicia and overall better showings that they take her for a majority. Nightwing hasn't always done well against Slade, Cassandra cain, and batman but he does have his moments against them. He's beaten shrike after he nearly killed black canary IIRC. Moon knight i'm less knowledgeable on but he has the above showing against black cat and I believe he did beat black knight. Bucky has beaten crossbones and gone toe to toe with fighters who can at times give Steve problems.
I think this may have been before her enhancements granted but even so.
Its during one of her enhanced periods (Mutated, not Tinkerer), but its not really much of a fight.
Essentially she kicks him to the ground (previous issue), he grabs and throws her and locks the door, that's it. She immediately kicks the door down, catches up to him, and realises there's been a misunderstanding and they team-up. That doesn't really tell us much.
Nightwing has various gadgets like electrified batons and such
What's the output like in comparison to Electro, who she's been shot by in the past? (knocked out, but no real injury).
Black Cat also has her own electrified Cat's Claw
So how strong is Rococo exactly?
Nothing outstanding, durable enough to laugh-off being shot, strong enough to at least pull a guy's arm off easily.
Nightwing hasn't always done well against Slade, Cassandra Cain, and Batman but he does have his moments against them.
and Black Cat has her moments against 10-tonners who have superhuman speed and reflexes :)
Its during one of her enhanced periods (Mutated, not Tinkerer), but its not really much of a fight.
Essentially she kicks him to the ground (previous issue), he grabs and throws her and locks the door, that's it. She immediately kicks the door down, catches up to him, and realises there's been a misunderstanding and they team-up. That doesn't really tell us much.
Alright thanks for the info. All though he did dodge her kick and get behind her quickly which was pretty impressive.
What's the output like in comparison to Electro, who she's been shot by in the past? (knocked out, but no real injury).
Black Cat also has her own electrified Cat's Claw
150 Volt shock. All though it is a one time charge. When did she take a hit from electro though? During marvel knights he one shotted her (same issue as the scan you posted of her kicking Lizard). Granted it was a cheap shot since she got distracted by Gargan tackling spider-man but still.
Nothing outstanding, durable enough to laugh-off being shot, strong enough to at least pull a guy's arm off easily.
Alright thanks for the info.
and Black Cat has her moments against 10-tonners who have superhuman speed and reflexes :)
Fair enough. Admittedly there isn't really anything similar to spider-man in the DCU all though nightwing did fight new 52 midnighter recently and did pretty well all though midnighter was holding back (all though considering spider-man always holds back I think its still a fair comparison). All though my only problem is I haven't kept up with new 52 midnighter.
And as I said there is a difference between spider-man and a skilled martial artist.
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