Team Moon Knight vs Team Black Cat

Avatar image for night4345
Night4345

8450

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Moon Knight (Kevlar armor, ten crescent darts, and truncheon), Nightwing, and Winter Soldier

vs

Black Cat (no probability powers), Crossbones (wrist blade, crossbow 10 bolts and 4 throwing knives), and Green Arrow (25 regular arrows and sword)

Rules:

  • · Standard equipment unless stated and Pre-52 versions
  • · Morals off
  • · Victory by KO, Incap, or Death
  • · Battle is in an empty Times Square, 50 feet away
Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

@night4345: Black Cat is literally capable of taking anyone on team 1... unfortunately Nightwing and Winter Soldier > Green Arrow and Crossbones

Avatar image for Oreoassassin421
OreoAssassin

7625

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Team 1

Avatar image for deactivated-5fbfd5d291164
deactivated-5fbfd5d291164

12702

Forum Posts

1547

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 74

User Lists: 7

Team 1.

Avatar image for thitiki
Thitiki

4503

Forum Posts

1535

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for jmarshmallow
Jmarshmallow

14023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@night4345: Black Cat is literally capable of taking anyone on team 1... unfortunately Nightwing and Winter Soldier > Green Arrow and Crossbones

Black Cat capable of taking out Nightwing?....without probability powers?....

Uhhhh, no.

Jmarshmallow

Avatar image for thor-parker
Thor-Parker

19856

Forum Posts

250

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Team 1

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

@kidman560 said:

@night4345: Black Cat is literally capable of taking anyone on team 1... unfortunately Nightwing and Winter Soldier > Green Arrow and Crossbones

Black Cat capable of taking out Nightwing?....without probability powers?....

Uhhhh, no.

Jmarshmallow

Spider Man

Sabertooth

and the Lizard

all disagree with you strongly...

Avatar image for granitesoldier
GraniteSoldier

12746

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 42

User Lists: 0

Black Cat is actually quite the fighter. She could likely beat Winter Soldier and Nightwing in my opinion, and perhaps even beat Moon Knight with some cleverness and trickery. She managed to fight well against the Lizard...who outclasses everyone here. Not saying her team wins or loses, but don't underestimate Felicia.

Avatar image for higorm
HigorM

9363

Forum Posts

257

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#11 HigorM  Moderator

@night4345: Team 1 without much effort.

Bucky Barnes already manage to beat Crossbones in at least 3 different ocasions. In a solo fight, against him an Sin, and the other against him, Sin and Suicide Squad. Winter Soldier can easily dispose him from this battle. He also possess marksmanship feats against both Daredevil and Hawkeye so I doubt Green Arrow would succeed against him or any other of his teammates considering they are all bullet timers and possess many agility feats. Team 1 is also quite superior at overall H2H combat and equipment.

Avatar image for jmarshmallow
Jmarshmallow

14023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kidman560: Not only are all of those feats besides Lizard pretty old, but also:

1). Spider-Man holds back, especially against Felicia.

2). Sabertooth is a jobber, and Nightwing has fared well against Deathstroke.

3). And Lizard had the upperhand until Peter got involved.

Jmarshmallow

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

Black Cat is actually quite the fighter. She could likely beat Winter Soldier and Nightwing in my opinion, and perhaps even beat Moon Knight with some cleverness and trickery. She managed to fight well against the Lizard...who outclasses everyone here. Not saying her team wins or loses, but don't underestimate Felicia.

i like this guy

Avatar image for jmarshmallow
Jmarshmallow

14023

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.

Dodging Spider-Man is something almost every character in the Marvel U has done at this point, and something that Nightwing would be able to do as well considering he's the most agile human in the DC Universe.

I just don't see Black Cat dishing out anything he hasn't taken before.

Jmarshmallow

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.

Considering Felicia was stomped recently by SpOck its safe to say she isn't in Peters league.

As for your other scans as said Creed is a jobber and I'm pretty sure he wasn't established to have his mutant abilities at the time. IIRC Peter beat Creed by webbing his face, and when Creed ripped the webbing off he scratched his face and had to go to the hospital. Needless to say classic pre-wolverine villain sabretooth sucked.

The Lizard scans are PIS. Peter can barely hurt Connors and he has shown at times bullets do bounce off his skin. She shouldn't be able to hurt him.

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

@jashro44: right are we sure the SpOck scans werent PIS because Felica has moved fast enough to dodge Venom a few times

Spider Man

Spider Man again

Vulture

yeah i think its safe to say she should be able to compete with Spider Man (not saying she wins but saying she should be able to compete)... also with the Lizard Scans Spider Man uses blunt force in his attacks, Felica was using slashing attacks (which he hasnt done as well against if IIRC)

i also see no reason why these above mentioned feats would not put her above Nightwing or Winter Soldier, and if shes smart moon knight.

Avatar image for beaconofstrength
BeaconofStrength

12491

Forum Posts

75

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

@kidman560: Hoping around Venom, in all honestly, isn't too impressive.

Taskmaster was easily jumping around Venom.

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

@kidman560: Hoping around Venom, in all honestly, isn't too impressive.

Taskmaster was easily jumping around Venom.

Taskmaster has also taken on Spider Man and given him a great fight... thanks for helping to prove my point. (also that was flash venom this is Eddie)

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@kidman560: Eddie stomped her. She dodged one single shot of webbing back before Brock was established to be as fast as Peter. Even hand books back then had him labeled as slower than Peter and said he couldn't dodge bullets (this would all later change with Brocks later showings he would become significantly more impressive, I guess you can chalk that up to experience with the symbiote).

Vulture isn't in Peters league. He's given him some tough fights a few times but he's lost to less. Daredevil has also beaten vulture as well IIRC. He's not exactly a high end rogue.

As for your spider-man scan the first scan is from amazing spider-man 194 where Peter underestimated her and he even says he's trying to talk. This was also a younger and less experienced Peter. Your second she dodged a single attack and then kicked Peter once and got pinned to the ground pretty easily. Reacting to characters faster than you is not uncommon in comics, nightwing has reacted to the flash in motion for example. Not much of a stretch Felicia can do the same with Peter especially with her bad luck powers. This was likewise a younger and less experienced spider-man. Your next spider-man scan Peter didn't even try to fight. He even states she sucker punched him.

I know slashing and blunt damage aren't the same thing which is why I mentioned Lizard being bullet proof.

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

#21  Edited By kidman560

@jashro44: im not saying that Felicia is in the same league is Spider Man but Black Panther is isnt either... also for most of those scans she didnt have her bad luck powers either... as im sure you know her classic bad luck powers were hax lvl (which would be when most of those scans took place) i mean bullets were changing directions to avoid her and even the Blob couldnt do anything to her.

we didnt eactly see that lvl in any of those scans...

@kidman560 said:

@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.

Dodging Spider-Man is something almost every character in the Marvel U has done at this point, and something that Nightwing would be able to do as well considering he's the most agile human in the DC Universe.

I just don't see Black Cat dishing out anything he hasn't taken before.

Jmarshmallow

unless Spider Man is actively trying to lose the fight no way in heck does he dodge spider man. i have attempted to make the same argument you have when i went through my nightwing phase... however Nightwing lacks a few things

1. the feats of agility to match Spider Man

2. Spider Sense

3. Spidey's perfect Equilibrium

something Black Cat also possess
something Black Cat also possess

4. Nightwing still peak human and Spider Man still super human (with the ability to catch bullets)

Avatar image for patrat18
patrat18

11753

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23  Edited By jashro44

@jashro44: im not saying that Felicia is in the same league is Spider Man but Black Panther is isnt either... also for most of those scans she didnt have her bad luck powers either... as im sure you know her classic bad luck powers were hax lvl (which would be when most of those scans took place) i mean bullets were changing directions to avoid her and even the Blob couldnt do anything to her.

we didnt eactly see that lvl in any of those scans...

She had her bad luck powers in all the scans you posted except for the one where she sucker punched him. For example in one of the scans you posted Peters web shooters jammed up:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

IN the amazing spider-man 194 one guns fell on Peter:

No Caption Provided

And heres the full fight of the other scans you uploaded:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for kidman560
kidman560

7638

Forum Posts

798

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 27

@jashro44:to be continued ts 1 AM where i am at and i can barely see straight

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for joygirl
Joygirl

21037

Forum Posts

482

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 43

Team 2, Black Cat as MVP. Crossbones is good enough to hold his own and Ollie is accurate and smart enough to strafe the battlefield, complicating the melee. Between his arrows and Felicia's acrobatics they can create a "web" of sorts and while the battle certainly won't be pretty, I see Bucky getting taken down by Felicia, Moon Knight getting brought down by Crossbones, and Nightwing being defeated by Green Arrow in a close and arduous fight. Team 2 has what it takes to win.

Avatar image for zhurong
ZhuRong

6728

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Felicia deserves better partners

Avatar image for owie
owie

9544

Forum Posts

286670

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 16

User Lists: 0

#28  Edited By owie  Moderator
@jashro44 said:

@kidman560 said:

@jmarshmallow: Nightwing got his butt handed to him by Deathstroke... he did terrible against him... meanwhile Felica has moved fast enough to dodge spider man (even when holding back thats faster than nightwing can think)... also Black Cat doesnt have her own series and all her feats are still canon (for the most part) so age has nothing to do with this.

Considering Felicia was stomped recently by SpOck its safe to say she isn't in Peters league.

As for your other scans as said Creed is a jobber and I'm pretty sure he wasn't established to have his mutant abilities at the time. IIRC Peter beat Creed by webbing his face, and when Creed ripped the webbing off he scratched his face and had to go to the hospital. Needless to say classic pre-wolverine villain sabretooth sucked.

The Lizard scans are PIS. Peter can barely hurt Connors and he has shown at times bullets do bounce off his skin. She shouldn't be able to hurt him.

Agreed. Sabretooth did have his healing factor back then but the fact that he had to go to the hospital shows how weak it was. DD beat him back then too. I like Felicia but she's the weak link here without her luck powers.

Avatar image for silent_bomber
silent_bomber

4974

Forum Posts

96141

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 8

@jashro44 said:

The Lizard scans are PIS. Peter can barely hurt Connors and he has shown at times bullets do bounce off his skin.
She shouldn't be able to hurt him.

Black Cat has Vibro-Claws created by the Tinkerer,

She has been shown to be able to shred armored Spider-Slayers that Pete hasn't been able to even dent.

@jashro44 said:

Eddie stomped her. She dodged one single shot of webbing back before Brock was established to be as fast as Peter.

She kicked him back into a wall and then knocked a chandelier down on him before she got owned.

Brock was always portrayed as being stronger and faster than Pete from the start. Hand-books were just poorly researched.

@jashro44 said:

Daredevil has also beaten vulture as well IIRC..

Vulture has beaten Daredevil, and in the rematch Daredevil was struggling until he led Vulture into pitch darkness.

@jashro44 said:

She had her bad luck powers in all the scans you posted except for the one where she sucker punched him. For example in one of the scans you posted Peters web shooters jammed up

Wrong, her "Bad Luck" ability in early issues was simply prep, she would tamper with the environment and objects before the fight would begin and the set off the traps afterwards as needed, she only got the "real" bad luck powers much later.

And Lizard had the upper hand until Peter got involved.

Doesn't look like it to me,Black Cat is on her own whilst Pete is fighting the Lizard's son, he's distracted once at the end.

and doesn't change the fact that she took a tail whip from Lizard and kept fighting.

@jashro44 said:

Considering Felicia was stomped recently by SpOck its safe to say she isn't in Peters league.

  1. I don't think anyone is saying she is on par with Spider-Man when he's brutal & serious, just she can somewhat keep up with him
  2. Ock blatantly sucker-punched her off a roof, hard, when she was in the middle of talking to him anyway

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Other than that

  • Black Cat has been smashed into a wall repeatedly by Ock trying to kill her and then got back up again moments later
  • Black Cat has taken blows from many Meta's over the years, such as Rococo
  • Black Cat has kept up with Scorpion and managed to damage him whilst protecting a de-powered Pete
  • Black Cat has completely owned Tarantula
  • Black Cat has evaded just about all of Spider-Man major foes at one time or another (Ock, Rhino, Hydroman, Scorpion)
  • Black Cat has beaten Hydroman without her powers

and the thing is, there is very little contrary evidence to put her below the levels of these characters. Most of her poor showings were before she had her stats enhanced by her Tinkerer gear, which improves her strength and agility, and gives her enhanced senses.

Black Cat started out as a Spider-Man enemy, and she has a long-as-heck history of tagging him, and backing him up.

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#30  Edited By jashro44

@silent_bomber:

Black Cat has Vibro-Claws created by the Tinkerer,

She has been shown to be able to shred armored Spider-Slayers that Pete hasn't been able to even dent.

Fair enough. All though I just did a skim through that story line (I can give it a better read if need be) and lizard was struggling with vermin in the same storyline. I still feel he was being a tad under written based on that.

She kicked him back into a wall and then knocked a chandelier down on him before she got owned.

Brock was always portrayed as being stronger and faster than Pete from the start. Hand-books were just poorly researched.

What makes you say he was faster than Peter in early showings?

Vulture has beaten Daredevil, and in the rematch Daredevil was struggling until he led Vulture into pitch darkness.

Vulture did beat him at first however in the rematch daredevil said he stood there like a lump and let vulture hit him. Its arguable if that was because daredevil had a death wish at the time or if he was really just distracted (which he states later) and he also underestimated vulture by his own admission. But even then he was able to keep up with him is the main point.

Wrong, her "Bad Luck" ability in early issues was simply prep, she would tamper with the environment and objects before the fight would begin and the set off the traps afterwards as needed, she only got the "real" bad luck powers much later.

Your right. With that said that doesn't change the entire point. She still had to rely on the environment and such. And also Peters web shooters being jammed. These were things which did help her and this was a long time ago.

  1. I don't think anyone is saying she is on par with Spider-Man when he's brutal & serious, just she can somewhat keep up with him
  2. Ock blatantly sucker-punched her off a roof, hard, when she was in the middle of talking to him anyway

The initial blow she wasn't expecting yes but he did give her enough time to get back to her feet. And I think it was clear enough that it was a fight. And a lot of characters have kept up with spider-man over the years. Including moon knight IIRC. It doesn't usually make them anywhere near as fast as him.

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Other than that

  • Black Cat has been smashed into a wall repeatedly by Ock trying to kill her and then got back up again moments later
  • Black Cat has taken blows from many Meta's over the years, such as Rococo
  • Black Cat has kept up with Scorpion and managed to damage him whilst protecting a de-powered Pete
  • Black Cat has completely owned Tarantula
  • Black Cat has evaded just about all of Spider-Man major foes at one time or another (Ock, Rhino, Hydroman, Scorpion)
  • Black Cat has beaten Hydroman without her powers

and the thing is, there is very little contrary evidence to put her below the levels of these characters. Most of her poor showings were before she had her stats enhanced by her Tinkerer gear, which improves her strength and agility, and gives her enhanced senses.

Black Cat started out as a Spider-Man enemy, and she has a long-as-heck history of tagging him, and backing him up.

  1. Your referring to spectacular spider-man volume 1 issue 75 correct? Its not a bad feat
  2. Lots of peak humans and such take hits from characters out of there weight class.
  3. Which is impressive but I would say that there is a difference between fighting a skilled fighter and scorpion. Also scorpion is kind of a jobber.
  4. Tarantula isn't too impressive.
  5. Rhino and hydroman I don't recall to many major speed feats (rhino has surprised spider-man with his speed before so I guess thats something) but in general I don't think it would be impossible for anyone else here to dodge rhino. I might be forgetting something about hydroman though. Scorpion was mentioned above, and again are you referring to spectacular spider-man volume 1 issue 75? Didn't peter state Felicia was out her league against dock? She did dodge a couple of strikes but I would say that its not impossible for others to dodge a few hits from Otto. Its a good feat but I am not sure if its beyond team moon knights ability to replicate given their reaction feats.
  6. Hydroman is a different type of enemy all together.

Not sure if Felicia has the showings against martial artists to really hang here.

Avatar image for silent_bomber
silent_bomber

4974

Forum Posts

96141

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 8

#31  Edited By silent_bomber

@jashro44 said:

Fair enough. All though I just did a skim through that story line (I can give it a better read if need be) and lizard was struggling with vermin in the same storyline. I still feel he was being a tad under written based on that.

Vermin is inconsistent, I'd say based on the time period, him standing up against (maybe injured) Lizard is not that outlandish

The problem with Vermin is that he started out as a Captain America villain, but then when the writer, J. M. DeMatteis moved over to Spider-Man he brought Vermin with him and just scaled him up to fight Spider-Man without any real explanation.

Vermin has given Spider-Man good fights more often than not, he nearly killed him H2H in Child Within and Kraven's First Hunt. In Kraven's First Hunt Vermin was already injured when he fought Pete, and Pete mentioned that he was "barely holding his own"

Also, Black Cat has at least gotten a hit on the Lizard on a separate occasion, in "Down Amongst the Dead Men"

No Caption Provided

@jashro44 said:
What makes you say he was faster than Peter in early showings?

Just the way Venom tended to dominate Spider-Man, he seemed outright faster and stronger in his original appearances to me, Pete only won in the first appearance due to Venom stupidly wasting the Symbiote on making webbing to stick Spider-Man to a Bell.

Pete would tend to retreat, get ready for a counter-attack, but then Venom would already be there and take him by surprise etc etc.

Either way I'd say Venom was definitely noticeably above Spider-Man in stats during his first appearances.

@jashro44 said:

The initial blow she wasn't expecting yes but he did give her enough time to get back to her feet. And I think it was clear enough that it was a fight. And a lot of characters have kept up with spider-man over the years. Including moon knight IIRC. It doesn't usually make them anywhere near as fast as him.

Depends how much damage the initial blow did, and she was still shaky and shocked afterwards.

Regardless, someone like Nightwing would not be doing any better in that circumstance anyway.

@jashro44 said:


Lots of peak humans and such take hits from characters out of there weight class.

What are you basing her being out of her weight class on though?

Black Cat only ever fights low Meta's, as a Spidey character its her natural habitat, sometimes she wins, sometimes she loses.

You haven't really been providing counter evidence, just refuting what you've been shown.

@jashro44 said:

Are you referring to spectacular spider-man volume 1 issue 75? Didn't peter state Felicia was out her league against dock?

Yup, but the Felicia in that issue is far weaker than the one now, that is Black Cat with no enhancements at all.

Felicia wearing just an ordinary costume can take multiple blows from Ock, evade some attacks, carry a grown man one-handed etc

After that she got the Tinkerer gear which enhances her strength and agility.

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#32  Edited By jashro44

@silent_bomber:

Vermin is inconsistent, I'd say based on the time period, him standing up against (maybe injured) Lizard is not that outlandish

The problem with Vermin is that he started out as a Captain America villain, but then when the writer, J. M. DeMatteis moved over to Spider-Man he brought Vermin with him and just scaled him up to fight Spider-Man without any real explanation.

Vermin has given Spider-Man good fights more often than not, he nearly killed him H2H in Child Within and Kraven's First Hunt. In Kraven's First Hunt Vermin was already injured when he fought Pete, and Pete mentioned that he was "barely holding his own"

Also, Black Cat has at least gotten a hit on the Lizard on a separate occasion, in "Down Amongst the Dead Men"

Fair enough on Vermin. Concerning the scan though with Felica hitting lizard it can be argued that was due to goblin and Gargan arguing. Your scan even says everybody is distracted.

Just the way Venom tended to dominate Spider-Man, he seemed outright faster and stronger in his original appearances to me, Pete only won in the first appearance due to Venom stupidly wasting the Symbiote on making webbing to stick Spider-Man to a Bell.

Pete would tend to retreat, get ready for a counter-attack, but then Venom would already be there and take him by surprise etc etc.

Either way I'd say Venom was definitely noticeably above Spider-Man in stats during his first appearances

I just reread some of the older issues. I agree that he was Peters superior and dominated all their fights (including the ones I'm going to reference now), however not all his stats were better. Peter did make a comment in amazing spider-man 346 that his experience and agility allowed him to counter one of venoms attacks, and in amazing spider-man 347 he said Eddie wasn't as nimble as he was. Granted he was gaining on Peter as well in amazing spider-man 346 but Peter also said that constantly turning his head was slowing him down as well. I'll admit this may not prove he is slower than Peter but I think it does at least support the hand books a bit.

You can argue that he was fast enough to tag Peter but Peter also wasn't use to fighting without his spider-sense. So that could be why. I mean we saw in Slotts run before Peter learned his way of the spider how different he was without his spider-sense.

Depends how much damage the initial blow did, and she was still shaky and shocked afterwards.

Regardless, someone like Nightwing would not be doing any better in that circumstance anyway.

Well we know it knocked out her tooth but on the other hand she was able to stand. Granted you are right she was shocked.

I agree. I mostly brought up the SpOck fight to show she wasn't quite in Peters league. Which is what I thought Kidman was saying. He clarified later though.

What are you basing her being out of her weight class on though?

Black Cat only ever fights low Meta's, as a Spidey character its her natural habitat, sometimes she wins, sometimes she loses.

You haven't really been providing counter evidence, just refuting what you've been shown.

I'm mostly basing her weight class on the fact she is low level enhanced. When I say weight class I'm talking about her overall physicals. Yes she can fight people who outclass her physically but she isn't in their league physically.

All though I'll admit I don't know much about Rococo. I was guessing she was around spider-man level and I guess I shouldn't have done that. So how strong is Rococo exactly?

As for counter evidence I'm not really against the idea of her fighting metahumans I'm just against the idea of some of these fights putting her above the people here. Scorpion, lizard, vulture are different kinds of enemies than martial artists are. I'm only really trying to refute the idea she's on Peters level. Granted I know you said she isn't on his level.

Yup, but the Felicia in that issue is far weaker than the one now, that is Black Cat with no enhancements at all.

Felicia wearing just an ordinary costume can take multiple blows from Ock, evade some attacks, carry a grown man one-handed etc

After that she got the Tinkerer gear which enhances her strength and agility.

Sure but her physicals haven't really gone up to spider-man level or anything to my knowledge. And moon knight did have a fight with felicia back then and did pretty well:

I think this may have been before her enhancements granted but even so. As for her durability its not like they can't hurt her. Nightwing has various gadgets like electrified batons and such, and bucky has the bionic arm. And obviously nightwing isn't as strong as dock ock but its not like he needs to be that strong to hurt her at all. And nightwing has been slammed against the wall by gorilla grodd in flash volume 2 issue 211 before and all though it wasn't repeated (I don't think it was) Grodd is quite a bit stronger than Dock Ock. That doesn't mean it takes grodd level strength to knock him out even in one hit. Nightwing may not be as strong as Otto's arms are but he has slammed KG beast face into concrete which created a mini crater, he's kicked Brutaal hard enough a car door went with him, etc.

I can dig up some physical feats for Bucky or moon knight if you want. I can't prove they're stronger than Dock Ock but I don't think I necessarily have to. I think due to the fact they have more showings against martial artists than Felicia and overall better showings that they take her for a majority. Nightwing hasn't always done well against Slade, Cassandra cain, and batman but he does have his moments against them. He's beaten shrike after he nearly killed black canary IIRC. Moon knight i'm less knowledgeable on but he has the above showing against black cat and I believe he did beat black knight. Bucky has beaten crossbones and gone toe to toe with fighters who can at times give Steve problems.

Avatar image for silent_bomber
silent_bomber

4974

Forum Posts

96141

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 8

#33  Edited By silent_bomber

@jashro44

I think this may have been before her enhancements granted but even so.

Its during one of her enhanced periods (Mutated, not Tinkerer), but its not really much of a fight.

Essentially she kicks him to the ground (previous issue), he grabs and throws her and locks the door, that's it. She immediately kicks the door down, catches up to him, and realises there's been a misunderstanding and they team-up. That doesn't really tell us much.

Nightwing has various gadgets like electrified batons and such

What's the output like in comparison to Electro, who she's been shot by in the past? (knocked out, but no real injury).

Black Cat also has her own electrified Cat's Claw

So how strong is Rococo exactly?

Nothing outstanding, durable enough to laugh-off being shot, strong enough to at least pull a guy's arm off easily.

Nightwing hasn't always done well against Slade, Cassandra Cain, and Batman but he does have his moments against them.

and Black Cat has her moments against 10-tonners who have superhuman speed and reflexes :)

Avatar image for nefarious
nefarious

35827

Forum Posts

6914

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

Team 2.

Avatar image for beaconofstrength
BeaconofStrength

12491

Forum Posts

75

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Still, team 1.

Avatar image for jashro44
jashro44

57695

Forum Posts

253

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@silent_bomber:

Its during one of her enhanced periods (Mutated, not Tinkerer), but its not really much of a fight.

Essentially she kicks him to the ground (previous issue), he grabs and throws her and locks the door, that's it. She immediately kicks the door down, catches up to him, and realises there's been a misunderstanding and they team-up. That doesn't really tell us much.

Alright thanks for the info. All though he did dodge her kick and get behind her quickly which was pretty impressive.

What's the output like in comparison to Electro, who she's been shot by in the past? (knocked out, but no real injury).

Black Cat also has her own electrified Cat's Claw

150 Volt shock. All though it is a one time charge. When did she take a hit from electro though? During marvel knights he one shotted her (same issue as the scan you posted of her kicking Lizard). Granted it was a cheap shot since she got distracted by Gargan tackling spider-man but still.

Nothing outstanding, durable enough to laugh-off being shot, strong enough to at least pull a guy's arm off easily.

Alright thanks for the info.

and Black Cat has her moments against 10-tonners who have superhuman speed and reflexes :)

Fair enough. Admittedly there isn't really anything similar to spider-man in the DCU all though nightwing did fight new 52 midnighter recently and did pretty well all though midnighter was holding back (all though considering spider-man always holds back I think its still a fair comparison). All though my only problem is I haven't kept up with new 52 midnighter.

And as I said there is a difference between spider-man and a skilled martial artist.

Avatar image for dcandmarvel
dcandmarvel

1110

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Team 1