#1 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Lightning: Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Jay Garrick

VS

Team Chrome: Captain Atom, Silver Surfer, Ultron (Annihilation)

Random encounter. Everyone in character, pre-52 versions for DC. Battle in the desert, start 1km apart. No BFR. Win by KO, death, or permanent incapacitation.

Who wins?

#2 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

.

#3 Posted by RingSlinger (533 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2. Everyone on team two is more powerful than team 1, by a considerable amount.

#4 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@RingSlinger said:

Team 2. Everyone on team two is more powerful than team 1, by a considerable amount.

Dont discount Jay and his speed. He's also capable of speed-stealing.

#5 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

He's not faster than Surfer, or I think Captain Atom. Two molecule manipulators should take this for Team 2 without much trouble.

#6 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

He's not faster than Surfer, or I think Captain Atom. Two molecule manipulators should take this for Team 2 without much trouble.

I'm sure people will argue whether or not he's faster. However, he doesnt have to be faster to speed-steal them.

#7 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

Gonna go with Team One. Black Adam takes out CA. Captain Marvel and BA then team up and take out Ultron then all 3 take down SS.

#8 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@Esquire said:

He's not faster than Surfer, or I think Captain Atom. Two molecule manipulators should take this for Team 2 without much trouble.

I'm sure people will argue whether or not he's faster. However, he doesnt have to be faster to speed-steal them.

Doesn't he have to touch them to speedsteal? Not only are the comparable in speed, they can fly, and they have energy attacks and molecular manipulation, plus TP.

#9 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@WillPayton said:

@Esquire said:

He's not faster than Surfer, or I think Captain Atom. Two molecule manipulators should take this for Team 2 without much trouble.

I'm sure people will argue whether or not he's faster. However, he doesnt have to be faster to speed-steal them.

Doesn't he have to touch them to speedsteal? Not only are the comparable in speed, they can fly, and they have energy attacks and molecular manipulation, plus TP.

I'm actually not sure if he has to make contact to speed-steal, but lets assume he does. SS can fly, but the fight starts on the ground. What are the odds he'll take off right when the fight begins out of range of a blitzing Jay? Consider, this is in character. No one here really blitzes in character except Jay, since that's basically his power. Even if we assume he does, what happens if one of the others punches SS into the ground? See what I mean?

#10 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

I'm actually not sure if he has to make contact to speed-steal, but lets assume he does. SS can fly, but the fight starts on the ground. What are the odds he'll take off right when the fight begins out of range of a blitzing Jay? Consider, this is in character. No one here really blitzes in character except Jay, since that's basically his power. Even if we assume he does, what happens if one of the others punches SS into the ground? See what I mean?

I can't remember any instances of a speed-steal without contact, but I'm not a Flash expert. Anyway, how many times have you seen Surfer fight on the ground? His MO is to fly around on his board, so he should get airborne immediately. I agree Jay could do a lot of damage to characters on the ground, but Sufer's board could catch him before he hits the ground, even if he doesn't just stay at a distance and use energy blasts, which is what I've most often seen him do in serious battles. Assuming this is one of the flying versions of Ultron, I'm just not comfortable saying BA or Cap could pin any of their opponents long enough for Jay to be much of a factor.

Also, do Jay and Billy have any TP resistance? I know Adam has resisted Martian Manhunter, but could Surfer just mind-wipe the other two?

#11 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@WillPayton said:

I'm actually not sure if he has to make contact to speed-steal, but lets assume he does. SS can fly, but the fight starts on the ground. What are the odds he'll take off right when the fight begins out of range of a blitzing Jay? Consider, this is in character. No one here really blitzes in character except Jay, since that's basically his power. Even if we assume he does, what happens if one of the others punches SS into the ground? See what I mean?

I can't remember any instances of a speed-steal without contact, but I'm not a Flash expert. Anyway, how many times have you seen Surfer fight on the ground? His MO is to fly around on his board, so he should get airborne immediately. I agree Jay could do a lot of damage to characters on the ground, but Sufer's board could catch him before he hits the ground, even if he doesn't just stay at a distance and use energy blasts, which is what I've most often seen him do in serious battles. Assuming this is one of the flying versions of Ultron, I'm just not comfortable saying BA or Cap could pin any of their opponents long enough for Jay to be much of a factor.

Also, do Jay and Billy have any TP resistance? I know Adam has resisted Martian Manhunter, but could Surfer just mind-wipe the other two?

Fight starts on the ground, so SS can take flight as much as any flying character would in a fight. Surfer can still start standing on his board, but it has to be on or near the ground.

It's the Annihilation version of Ultron. I dont know if he could fly or not.

Not sure about Jay having TP resistance, but I dont see why it'd be different from Wally. I believe Wally has TP resistance because he moves so fast that he brain is hard to attack telepathically.

How often does Surfer use TP in fights in-character?

#12 Posted by RingSlinger (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@PlasticBag said:

Gonna go with Team One. Black Adam takes out CA. Captain Marvel and BA then team up and take out Ultron then all 3 take down SS.

Or Surfer takes out BA and Jay while Ultron and CA deal with Cap. Marvel, then Surfer helps finish him off.

#13 Posted by beatboks1 (7004 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins. While Wally has stolen speed without contact by simply looking at things in close proximity Jay has always had to touch. BA while physically powerful and durable isn't fast enough to hang with anyone other than Ultron in team 2. Jay would have to remain at top speed a lot longer than his health would allow to majorly contribute ( he can got FTL but because of having had a heart attack can't do so for long periods without risking another). That pretty much leaves Billy to stick out the fight to the end. His endurance means he could last a LOT longer than most but not forever.

#14 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

Fight starts on the ground, so SS can take flight as much as any flying character would in a fight. Surfer can still start standing on his board, but it has to be on or near the ground.

It's the Annihilation version of Ultron. I dont know if he could fly or not.

Not sure about Jay having TP resistance, but I dont see why it'd be different from Wally. I believe Wally has TP resistance because he moves so fast that he brain is hard to attack telepathically.

How often does Surfer use TP in fights in-character?

He starts on the ground, but he has as good or better speed and reaction time as Jay, and he likes to fight in the air. So he can get airborne before Jay blitzes.

I'm not sure, but most versions can and Annihilation was one of the more advanced, so I'm going to guess he can fly.

That's a good point about Jay. I'd guess you're right. Surfer doesn't use it all that often, but he's done it a few times. It's certainly part of his ability set, so it's possible he'd use it. But I don't think he'd need to. I just don't see what Team 1 can do against two high-tier matter-manipulators.

#15 Posted by protectyournose (908 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Lightning Stomps.

#16 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

He starts on the ground, but he has as good or better speed and reaction time as Jay, and he likes to fight in the air. So he can get airborne before Jay blitzes.

I'm not sure, but most versions can and Annihilation was one of the more advanced, so I'm going to guess he can fly.

That's a good point about Jay. I'd guess you're right. Surfer doesn't use it all that often, but he's done it a few times. It's certainly part of his ability set, so it's possible he'd use it. But I don't think he'd need to. I just don't see what Team 1 can do against two high-tier matter-manipulators.

I think it's debatable if Jay or SS is faster, at least in terms of combat speed.

Even if we stipulate that SS is faster than Jay, Jay is still faster than Atom or Ultron. So again we have the speed-steal issue. What happens if Jay speed-steals one of those two soon after the battle begins, or both... now things dont look so good for Team 2.

#17 Posted by RingSlinger (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: How in character is it for jay to speed steel early in a battle?

#18 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@RingSlinger said:

@WillPayton: How in character is it for jay to speed steel early in a battle?

Maybe 50/50?

#19 Posted by RingSlinger (533 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton: Hmmm... Interesting.

#20 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@protectyournose said:

Team Lightning Stomps.

How do you figure? Who's going to beat Silver Surfer or Captain Atom, both of whom are matter manipulators?

#21 Posted by YoungJustice (6693 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@Esquire said:

@WillPayton said:

@Esquire said:

He's not faster than Surfer, or I think Captain Atom. Two molecule manipulators should take this for Team 2 without much trouble.

I'm sure people will argue whether or not he's faster. However, he doesnt have to be faster to speed-steal them.

Doesn't he have to touch them to speedsteal? Not only are the comparable in speed, they can fly, and they have energy attacks and molecular manipulation, plus TP.

I'm actually not sure if he has to make contact to speed-steal, but lets assume he does. SS can fly, but the fight starts on the ground. What are the odds he'll take off right when the fight begins out of range of a blitzing Jay? Consider, this is in character. No one here really blitzes in character except Jay, since that's basically his power. Even if we assume he does, what happens if one of the others punches SS into the ground? See what I mean?

SS has on foot speed feats as well.

#22 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@protectyournose said:

Team Lightning Stomps.

How do you figure? Who's going to beat Silver Surfer or Captain Atom, both of whom are matter manipulators?

Yes, but dont Adam and Marvel have resistance due to their magical nature?

#23 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

@Esquire said:

@protectyournose said:

Team Lightning Stomps.

How do you figure? Who's going to beat Silver Surfer or Captain Atom, both of whom are matter manipulators?

Yes, but dont Adam and Marvel have resistance due to their magical nature?

I don't see why they would. They're still made up of matter, so unless anyone has feats of them or even other magic-based beings resisting molecule manipulation, I'm not convinced. I could be wrong, I've just never seen anything to suggest such a resistance.

#24 Posted by WillPayton (9192 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@WillPayton said:

@Esquire said:

@protectyournose said:

Team Lightning Stomps.

How do you figure? Who's going to beat Silver Surfer or Captain Atom, both of whom are matter manipulators?

Yes, but dont Adam and Marvel have resistance due to their magical nature?

I don't see why they would. They're still made up of matter, so unless anyone has feats of them or even other magic-based beings resisting molecule manipulation, I'm not convinced. I could be wrong, I've just never seen anything to suggest such a resistance.

I dont have scans for this, it's what I remember from another thread talking about it. If someone has scans of Adam or Marvel resisting matter manipulation please post them.