Team GREEN vs Team BLACK

@Illuminatus: Thanks for the info. But, keep in mind, Void was "killed" only because he allowed it to happen. Had he wanted to re-form, he would have. Team Green isn't comprised of people Bob considers allies, as in Seige. He's bloodlusted in this scenario.

@jeanroygrant said:

@venomoushatred1001 said:

Void solos.

How? Thor killed him.

Thor allowed him to kill him.

@Illuminatus: Thanks for the info. But, keep in mind, Void was "killed" only because he allowed it to happen. Had he wanted to re-form, he would have. Team Green isn't comprised of people Bob considers allies, as in Seige. He's bloodlusted in this scenario.

Well, I guess we'll say GREEN wins, at least 6/10, and I'll move them on to the next round.

@Illuminatus: And, again, that was because he allowed it. In this scenario, I took bloodlusted to mean he was fully committed to killing the other team. There's no conflict here, like in Seige, so the comparison fails.

@80sBaby said:

Half the things that get argued on this site aren't "in character" for these people or have been used only once but we use them anyways (i.e speedblitzing from MM or IMP/soloing for Flash.) Not sure how the Green Team kills something that can't die unless it wants to though? I suppose MM may be able to get through to Bob but, IIRC, Emma and Charles both failed at that. This is a tough one.

I was thinking the same thing. People dismiss Void pretty flatly around here. Void was facing and owning practically the entire Marvel Universe, and only Odins Norn Stones and the combined the combined efforts of thusly augmented heroes put him down, with the Helicarrier... which still didn't finish him, until Bob took over and committed suicide by Thor. Even if the consensus is that MM > Emma/Xavier combined, there's no evidence to support that Void would be susceptible to MM's TP.

@spiderbuck said:

@80sBaby said:

Half the things that get argued on this site aren't "in character" for these people or have been used only once but we use them anyways (i.e speedblitzing from MM or IMP/soloing for Flash.) Not sure how the Green Team kills something that can't die unless it wants to though? I suppose MM may be able to get through to Bob but, IIRC, Emma and Charles both failed at that. This is a tough one.

I was thinking the same thing. People dismiss Void pretty flatly around here. Void was facing and owning practically the entire Marvel Universe, and only Odins Norn Stones and the combined the combined efforts of thusly augmented heroes put him down, with the Helicarrier... which still didn't finish him, until Bob took over and committed suicide by Thor. Even if the consensus is that MM > Emma/Xavier combined, there's no evidence to support that Void would be susceptible to MM's TP.

"The entire Marvel universe"? Seriously? Apart from Thor and Loki, who did Void fight in Siege who could actually pose a threat? No one. The next closest thing was Iron Man and maybe Ms. Marvel, the rest were all street levelers like Spider-Man, Cap, Daken, Gargan and so on. Those were the "thusly augmented heroes" that he fought. Beating them all is so incredibly impressive. Bob didn't "take over", Void was forced back because of the helicarrier. It's not like Bob had a choice in the matter. "Zero evidence"? Wherever did you get that from? J'onn's TP has worked on beings with far superior TP resistance than anything Void can come up with. Stigmonus was the personification of the collective unconscious, sort of like what the Mind Gem is in Marvel, and he couldn't get through Jordan-Spectre's mental barriers. J'onn on the other hand has used telepathy on the Spectre four times, on the entire human race three times, on Wonder Woman thrice (and she has telepathic resistance that made her immune to Max Lord, who mindwiped the entire planet twice), on multiple White Martians, on Metron after his mind had been shattered on contact with the Anti-Life entity, burned through a TP-proof helmet designed by the Guardians of the Universe, and in general has a whole bunch of TP feats that make the notion of Void supposedly being immune to his TP more than faintly ridiculous. Void's supposed TP immunity didn't stand in the way of Cyclops shoving him into a little box in his mind and locking him up using tricks he learned from Jean.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

LOL. Molecule manipulation isn't in character for either Void or Sentry. Doing something once under a ridiculous writer that thinks Gorgon isn't a mutant doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. That molecular manipulation would've come in real handy during the Void's fight with Thor.

Molecule Man simply wasn't at his old level, nothing more. Ther is no proof that Void shouldn't have mm. He has - he showed it, he won with powerfull enemy - nothing else really matters here, a specially that it isn't against what was shown about him in older comics.

He was still at a level vastly beyond anything Sentry had ever shown prior to that. In two issues of Dark Avengers alone he pulled off matter manipulation feats better than everything from Sentry's entire publication history. Void can have molecular manipulation, but the level that he had it at is PIS. If you disagree, I invite you to post one feat (just one!) from any of his previous appearances that fit with this showing. Just one. I have no idea why people actually think Void beating Molecule Man isn't ridiculous PIS, or why they don't even acknowledge that it was an absurdly high showing that does not fit with a single prior showing of his.

I'd have to give it to team 2 ...

@Illuminatus said:

@80sBaby said:

Who on team Green is more powerful than Loki w/Norn Stones. I was under the impression the stones made him pretty potent.

The Norn Stones aren't really all that powerful. Void got downed by a hellicarrier and Thor, along with some Avengers. Hal can destroy planets and J'onn has infiltrated the mind of the Spectre on two different occasions. Void will get stomped.

No, Thor tried that before and Sentry/Void survived more powerfull explosions than that. Magic of Norn Stones was only thing that really hurt him without it Void would'nt lose.

Void's TP > Xavier's TP = Martian's TP.

Hal can shoot a blast on Void and Void will just reform.

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

LOL. Molecule manipulation isn't in character for either Void or Sentry. Doing something once under a ridiculous writer that thinks Gorgon isn't a mutant doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. That molecular manipulation would've come in real handy during the Void's fight with Thor.

Molecule Man simply wasn't at his old level, nothing more. Ther is no proof that Void shouldn't have mm. He has - he showed it, he won with powerfull enemy - nothing else really matters here, a specially that it isn't against what was shown about him in older comics.

He was still at a level vastly beyond anything Sentry had ever shown prior to that. In two issues of Dark Avengers alone he pulled off matter manipulation feats better than everything from Sentry's entire publication history. Void can have molecular manipulation, but the level that he had it at is PIS. If you disagree, I invite you to post one feat (just one!) from any of his previous appearances that fit with this showing. Just one. I have no idea why people actually think Void beating Molecule Man isn't ridiculous PIS, or why they don't even acknowledge that it was an absurdly high showing that does not fit with a single prior showing of his.

That is why he shown in there. One? Reformnig his body,bringing back Sentry's tower. And no, it doesn't matter that he ever used it before, since he realized that he has this power in that comic.

So it isn't PIS, it can't be PIS actually.

Prove to me that Void doesn't have molecular manipulation. If it is so obvious for You that he can't have this level of this power You have to have great evidence for that.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

@80sBaby said:

Who on team Green is more powerful than Loki w/Norn Stones. I was under the impression the stones made him pretty potent.

The Norn Stones aren't really all that powerful. Void got downed by a hellicarrier and Thor, along with some Avengers. Hal can destroy planets and J'onn has infiltrated the mind of the Spectre on two different occasions. Void will get stomped.

No, Thor tried that before and Sentry/Void survived more powerfull explosions than that. Magic of Norn Stones was only thing that really hurt him without it Void would'nt lose.

Void's TP > Xavier's TP = Martian's TP.

Hal can shoot a blast on Void and Void will just reform.

Void does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, forget about J'onn's.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

LOL. Molecule manipulation isn't in character for either Void or Sentry. Doing something once under a ridiculous writer that thinks Gorgon isn't a mutant doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. That molecular manipulation would've come in real handy during the Void's fight with Thor.

Molecule Man simply wasn't at his old level, nothing more. Ther is no proof that Void shouldn't have mm. He has - he showed it, he won with powerfull enemy - nothing else really matters here, a specially that it isn't against what was shown about him in older comics.

He was still at a level vastly beyond anything Sentry had ever shown prior to that. In two issues of Dark Avengers alone he pulled off matter manipulation feats better than everything from Sentry's entire publication history. Void can have molecular manipulation, but the level that he had it at is PIS. If you disagree, I invite you to post one feat (just one!) from any of his previous appearances that fit with this showing. Just one. I have no idea why people actually think Void beating Molecule Man isn't ridiculous PIS, or why they don't even acknowledge that it was an absurdly high showing that does not fit with a single prior showing of his.

That is why he shown in there. One? Reformnig his body,bringing back Sentry's tower. And no, it doesn't matter that he ever used it before, since he realized that he has this power in that comic.

So it isn't PIS, it can't be PIS actually.

Prove to me that Void doesn't have molecular manipulation. If it is so obvious for You that he can't have this level of this power You have to have great evidence for that.

Reforming his body (took place in the same PIS series anyway) and bringing back the tower? How are ANY of those even remotely close to the same level as would be required to defeat that version of Molecule Man.?Him "realizing he has the power" is a plot device, nothing more.

Did you even read what I said? I highlighted the relevant section just in case it wasn't immediately clear. I never said Void doesn't have molecule manipulation, I said the level that he possessed there was PIS. Why are you asking me to prove it? He has ONE molecule manipulation feat on that level, just one. And then he has several that are nowhere near that level. How is this not obvious? His level of power in that issue is contradicted by several prior showings. It's really that simple. If you believe otherwise, you're the one who's supposed to prove it, with previous showings of his. I'll save you some time: there aren't any.

It's like how Black Adam could take on all of DC Earth by himself because "he wasn't holding back anything", despite the fact that there are several prior showings that clearly contradict WWIII. We both know it's a BS excuse.

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

@80sBaby said:

Who on team Green is more powerful than Loki w/Norn Stones. I was under the impression the stones made him pretty potent.

The Norn Stones aren't really all that powerful. Void got downed by a hellicarrier and Thor, along with some Avengers. Hal can destroy planets and J'onn has infiltrated the mind of the Spectre on two different occasions. Void will get stomped.

No, Thor tried that before and Sentry/Void survived more powerfull explosions than that. Magic of Norn Stones was only thing that really hurt him without it Void would'nt lose.

Void's TP > Xavier's TP = Martian's TP.

Hal can shoot a blast on Void and Void will just reform.

Void does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, forget about J'onn's.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

LOL. Molecule manipulation isn't in character for either Void or Sentry. Doing something once under a ridiculous writer that thinks Gorgon isn't a mutant doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. That molecular manipulation would've come in real handy during the Void's fight with Thor.

Molecule Man simply wasn't at his old level, nothing more. Ther is no proof that Void shouldn't have mm. He has - he showed it, he won with powerfull enemy - nothing else really matters here, a specially that it isn't against what was shown about him in older comics.

He was still at a level vastly beyond anything Sentry had ever shown prior to that. In two issues of Dark Avengers alone he pulled off matter manipulation feats better than everything from Sentry's entire publication history. Void can have molecular manipulation, but the level that he had it at is PIS. If you disagree, I invite you to post one feat (just one!) from any of his previous appearances that fit with this showing. Just one. I have no idea why people actually think Void beating Molecule Man isn't ridiculous PIS, or why they don't even acknowledge that it was an absurdly high showing that does not fit with a single prior showing of his.

That is why he shown in there. One? Reformnig his body,bringing back Sentry's tower. And no, it doesn't matter that he ever used it before, since he realized that he has this power in that comic.

So it isn't PIS, it can't be PIS actually.

Prove to me that Void doesn't have molecular manipulation. If it is so obvious for You that he can't have this level of this power You have to have great evidence for that.

Reforming his body (took place in the same PIS series anyway) and bringing back the tower? How are ANY of those even remotely close to the same level as would be required to defeat that version of Molecule Man.?Him "realizing he has the power" is a plot device, nothing more.

Did you even read what I said? I highlighted the relevant section just in case it wasn't immediately clear. I never said Void doesn't have molecule manipulation, I said the level that he possessed there was PIS. Why are you asking me to prove it? He has ONE molecule manipulation feat on that level, just one. And then he has several that are nowhere near that level. How is this not obvious? His level of power in that issue is contradicted by several prior showings. It's really that simple. If you believe otherwise, you're the one who's supposed to prove it, with previous showings of his. I'll save you some time: there aren't any.

It's like how Black Adam could take on all of DC Earth by himself because "he wasn't holding back anything", despite the fact that there are several prior showings that clearly contradict WWIII. We both know it's a BS excuse.

He need only fight with Molcule Man - nothing more.

Void was able to take out Emma by a Fraction of his power, Maritan will have a problem with dealling with her at all.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

@80sBaby said:

Who on team Green is more powerful than Loki w/Norn Stones. I was under the impression the stones made him pretty potent.

The Norn Stones aren't really all that powerful. Void got downed by a hellicarrier and Thor, along with some Avengers. Hal can destroy planets and J'onn has infiltrated the mind of the Spectre on two different occasions. Void will get stomped.

No, Thor tried that before and Sentry/Void survived more powerfull explosions than that. Magic of Norn Stones was only thing that really hurt him without it Void would'nt lose.

Void's TP > Xavier's TP = Martian's TP.

Hal can shoot a blast on Void and Void will just reform.

Void does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, forget about J'onn's.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Illuminatus said:

LOL. Molecule manipulation isn't in character for either Void or Sentry. Doing something once under a ridiculous writer that thinks Gorgon isn't a mutant doesn't really matter in the scheme of things. That molecular manipulation would've come in real handy during the Void's fight with Thor.

Molecule Man simply wasn't at his old level, nothing more. Ther is no proof that Void shouldn't have mm. He has - he showed it, he won with powerfull enemy - nothing else really matters here, a specially that it isn't against what was shown about him in older comics.

He was still at a level vastly beyond anything Sentry had ever shown prior to that. In two issues of Dark Avengers alone he pulled off matter manipulation feats better than everything from Sentry's entire publication history. Void can have molecular manipulation, but the level that he had it at is PIS. If you disagree, I invite you to post one feat (just one!) from any of his previous appearances that fit with this showing. Just one. I have no idea why people actually think Void beating Molecule Man isn't ridiculous PIS, or why they don't even acknowledge that it was an absurdly high showing that does not fit with a single prior showing of his.

That is why he shown in there. One? Reformnig his body,bringing back Sentry's tower. And no, it doesn't matter that he ever used it before, since he realized that he has this power in that comic.

So it isn't PIS, it can't be PIS actually.

Prove to me that Void doesn't have molecular manipulation. If it is so obvious for You that he can't have this level of this power You have to have great evidence for that.

Reforming his body (took place in the same PIS series anyway) and bringing back the tower? How are ANY of those even remotely close to the same level as would be required to defeat that version of Molecule Man.?Him "realizing he has the power" is a plot device, nothing more.

Did you even read what I said? I highlighted the relevant section just in case it wasn't immediately clear. I never said Void doesn't have molecule manipulation, I said the level that he possessed there was PIS. Why are you asking me to prove it? He has ONE molecule manipulation feat on that level, just one. And then he has several that are nowhere near that level. How is this not obvious? His level of power in that issue is contradicted by several prior showings. It's really that simple. If you believe otherwise, you're the one who's supposed to prove it, with previous showings of his. I'll save you some time: there aren't any.

It's like how Black Adam could take on all of DC Earth by himself because "he wasn't holding back anything", despite the fact that there are several prior showings that clearly contradict WWIII. We both know it's a BS excuse.

He need only fight with Molcule Man - nothing more.

Void was able to take out Emma by a Fraction of his power, Maritan will have a problem with dealling with her at all.

What complete and total nonsense.

J'onn will have zero problems dealing with Emma, and when you brought up the Void sliver giving Emma problems, I couldn't help but notice that you just skipped over the part where Emma blew apart several Void constructs to bits inside Scott's head, and how later Cyclops took the Void sliver and shoved it into a little box in his head. Let's not be leaving out vital details, yeah?

@vuviper said

See because of the limited power source I don't know if he can achieve the speed necessary.

He can, Black Adam and Void can power the suit. Insider suit can absorb and convert any energy based attack to power itself including Green Lantern energy. Against a brute like the Hulk with no energy projection, Insider Suit would fail but energy projection repowers it.

As I said, GL, Void and BA can keep the suit powered up during a protracted battle or even to charge it up to Speed Force levels. Still, all it takes is MM to confuse Bruce (Bruce has great anti-telepathy equip but that isn't to say MM can't get through partially to confuse him although BA is probably quite resistant to telepathy due to having God powers). It all comes down to if Bruce Speed blitzes MM first or not. That one decision determines the outcome of the entire battle. With the way Bruce fights it's a 50/50 chance IMO (he either blitzes Hulk or MM first seeing as GL has an easily identifiable energy projection which his suit can use).

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

He need only fight with Molcule Man - nothing more.

Void was able to take out Emma by a Fraction of his power, Maritan will have a problem with dealling with her at all.

What complete and total nonsense.

J'onn will have zero problems dealing with Emma, and when you brought up the Void sliver giving Emma problems, I couldn't help but notice that you just skipped over the part where Emma blew apart several Void constructs to bits inside Scott's head, and how later Cyclops took the Void sliver and shoved it into a little box in his head. Let's not be leaving out vital details, yeah?

1.There is no chance to prove that Void doesn't have this level of matter manipulation, so it can't be PIS.

2.Martian will have a huge problem with Emma. Void that was present in Cyke's head is just an echo of real Void. Just a fraction of his consciousness that didn't back to Sentry's mind. That is so impresive - his mere presence was giving her pain.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

He need only fight with Molcule Man - nothing more.

Void was able to take out Emma by a Fraction of his power, Maritan will have a problem with dealling with her at all.

What complete and total nonsense.

J'onn will have zero problems dealing with Emma, and when you brought up the Void sliver giving Emma problems, I couldn't help but notice that you just skipped over the part where Emma blew apart several Void constructs to bits inside Scott's head, and how later Cyclops took the Void sliver and shoved it into a little box in his head. Let's not be leaving out vital details, yeah?

1.There is no chance to prove that Void doesn't have this level of matter manipulation, so it can't be PIS.

2.Martian will have a huge problem with Emma. Void that was present in Cyke's head is just an echo of real Void. Just a fraction of his consciousness that didn't back to Sentry's mind. That is so impresive - his mere presence was giving her pain.

Again, did you even read what I said? He has several molecule manipulation feats prior to this, not one single one of which is on that level. When viewed through the lens of his previous showings, this one does not fit. This is really not hard to understand, I have no idea why you keep going around in circles. I'd have thought the Black Adam example would suffice, but....

Not really. Void's presence wasn't giving Emma pain, it was trying to take over her mind, which is why she shifted to her diamond form, and Void couldn't do anything then. That in itself proves that Void is not on Xavier's level, because Xavier can and has used telepathy on Emma even when she was in her diamond form. Xavier performed something Void could not. Void still does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, all he has is being able to block Xavier once, which plenty of people inferior to him have done in the past.

Now the insider suit is like walking cheat code . I may have to go read back on it . Still The Black teams wins

Team Green for the win.

@termiteone4ever: It is. Think Bruce went overboard on compensation in case JLA went rogue. The panel where he absorbs energy is in the Outsiders where he absorbs Geoforce's projections to re-power the suit. The only thing the suit does not have in terms of powers from the JLA is magic and telepathy. It has pretty much everything else from Superman powers to MM intangibility, to teleportation , Green Lantern constructs and power scanning and threat level indicators.

@vuviper said

See because of the limited power source I don't know if he can achieve the speed necessary.

He can, Black Adam and Void can power the suit. Insider suit can absorb and convert any energy based attack to power itself including Green Lantern energy. Against a brute like the Hulk with no energy projection, Insider Suit would fail but energy projection repowers it.

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

1.There is no chance to prove that Void doesn't have this level of matter manipulation, so it can't be PIS.

2.Martian will have a huge problem with Emma. Void that was present in Cyke's head is just an echo of real Void. Just a fraction of his consciousness that didn't back to Sentry's mind. That is so impresive - his mere presence was giving her pain.

Again, did you even read what I said? He has several molecule manipulation feats prior to this, not one single one of which is on that level. When viewed through the lens of his previous showings, this one does not fit. This is really not hard to understand, I have no idea why you keep going around in circles. I'd have thought the Black Adam example would suffice, but....

Not really. Void's presence wasn't giving Emma pain, it was trying to take over her mind, which is why she shifted to her diamond form, and Void couldn't do anything then. That in itself proves that Void is not on Xavier's level, because Xavier can and has used telepathy on Emma even when she was in her diamond form. Xavier performed something Void could not. Void still does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, all he has is being able to block Xavier once, which plenty of people inferior to him have done in the past.

1.You don't understand my point. Void used mm in the past? Yes. Is ther anything that can support point that we have seen any limits to his mm? No. Is it suprising that Void's level of molecular manipulation raised whenhe understood what he is really doing? No.

Void was destroyed two times in that story before he saw that he is reforming through mm. He also has shown lack of experience in that area,telling Owen that he can't put everything back, but MM can. void had simply higher level of energy and the same power, so he has won. This MM is on Surfer's level, not Beyonder, according to what I remember. It was his last apperance, when they combined their power to do something...

2.Void was able to stun Emma, but she wasn't his real enemy, that is why we could see only a fraction of him in her mind, while Void was still alive in other place.

Green.

@Illuminatus: Doesn't matter IMO. Bruce has enough to energy to speed blitz MM if he goes after MM first. Afterwards he can get Hal's energy ring (he's been shown to use it pretty effortlessly). Black Adam is only mediocre in team work, not bad, kinda like Namor, he was in the JSA for quite some time and nothing has been shown that he has any particular dislike for Bruce and Batman unlike some of the other super heroes. If there is a common enemy he'll work with his teammates. I do agree with the void but then again hulk is the same way part of the time too. As long as Void takes on hulk and MM is not there to mindfart with the void first he's a non-issue for going after everyone.

I still say the whole battle hinges on Bruce taking out MM first and it's a 50% chance of that at least.

The only way Bruce is even more powerful than with the insider suit is as trinity god batman, yeah, Batgod is a real thing for those that have forgotten.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

1.There is no chance to prove that Void doesn't have this level of matter manipulation, so it can't be PIS.

2.Martian will have a huge problem with Emma. Void that was present in Cyke's head is just an echo of real Void. Just a fraction of his consciousness that didn't back to Sentry's mind. That is so impresive - his mere presence was giving her pain.

Again, did you even read what I said? He has several molecule manipulation feats prior to this, not one single one of which is on that level. When viewed through the lens of his previous showings, this one does not fit. This is really not hard to understand, I have no idea why you keep going around in circles. I'd have thought the Black Adam example would suffice, but....

Not really. Void's presence wasn't giving Emma pain, it was trying to take over her mind, which is why she shifted to her diamond form, and Void couldn't do anything then. That in itself proves that Void is not on Xavier's level, because Xavier can and has used telepathy on Emma even when she was in her diamond form. Xavier performed something Void could not. Void still does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, all he has is being able to block Xavier once, which plenty of people inferior to him have done in the past.

1.You don't understand my point. Void used mm in the past? Yes. Is ther anything that can support point that we have seen any limits to his mm? No. Is it suprising that Void's level of molecular manipulation raised whenhe understood what he is really doing? No.

Void was destroyed two times in that story before he saw that he is reforming through mm. He also has shown lack of experience in that area,telling Owen that he can't put everything back, but MM can. void had simply higher level of energy and the same power, so he has won. This MM is on Surfer's level, not Beyonder, according to what I remember. It was his last apperance, when they combined their power to do something...

2.Void was able to stun Emma, but she wasn't his real enemy, that is why we could see only a fraction of him in her mind, while Void was still alive in other place.

I'm tired of repeating myself.You're the one who doesn't understand the point, or refuses to understand it. Your argument that since we have not seen limits to his molecular manipulation, we should accept what ever we see? Complete nonsense. It's the same crap Dr. Manhattan fans bring up to say he can do whatever he wants, since no one knows his limits.

Answer this question, with just a yes or no, if you can: Does Void have ONE single feat prior to that which is on the same level as beating Molecule Man?

Answer: No. Not a single thing. And this comes from someone who has read EVERY single thing Sentry has ever appeared in. You know what we call one-time feats that are severely above what a character's normal level was portrayed at? PIS, that's what. You know what we call aforementioned feats being justified by BS excuses like "understanding how a power works"? Especially when aforementioned feats fly in the face of canon? Plot, that's what.

I really don't see what part of this is so hard to understand. Why do you keep going around and around in circles saying "Blah blah we haven't seen limits so it can't be PIS blah" and other obvious logical fallacies? It's tiring. I don't know why you keep singing the same song irrespective of the reply.

It's like Spider-Man lifting the entire Daily Bugle building because he was desperate to save people. The feat is ridiculously above what he's consistently been portrayed at, no matter what the motivation or cause, and so nobody bothers taking it into account. It's the same story here.

What on Earth are you talking about? That MM was not on Surfer's level either. Where do you get this stuff that's so obviously not true?

And again, what on Earth are you talking about? Void was dead during Nation X, all the Emma and Xavier feats I quoted took place then. Again, what is so hard to understand about this? Void's best feat is beating Thor. That's about it. Beating Molecule Man was PIS, whether you like it or not, and he did nothing that dozens of people inferior to Xavier, like Romulus, Legion, Mystique, Gambit and others, haven't all done at some point or another.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Again, did you even read what I said? He has several molecule manipulation feats prior to this, not one single one of which is on that level. When viewed through the lens of his previous showings, this one does not fit. This is really not hard to understand, I have no idea why you keep going around in circles. I'd have thought the Black Adam example would suffice, but....

Not really. Void's presence wasn't giving Emma pain, it was trying to take over her mind, which is why she shifted to her diamond form, and Void couldn't do anything then. That in itself proves that Void is not on Xavier's level, because Xavier can and has used telepathy on Emma even when she was in her diamond form. Xavier performed something Void could not. Void still does not have a single feat on Xavier's level, all he has is being able to block Xavier once, which plenty of people inferior to him have done in the past.

1.You don't understand my point. Void used mm in the past? Yes. Is ther anything that can support point that we have seen any limits to his mm? No. Is it suprising that Void's level of molecular manipulation raised whenhe understood what he is really doing? No.

Void was destroyed two times in that story before he saw that he is reforming through mm. He also has shown lack of experience in that area,telling Owen that he can't put everything back, but MM can. void had simply higher level of energy and the same power, so he has won. This MM is on Surfer's level, not Beyonder, according to what I remember. It was his last apperance, when they combined their power to do something...

2.Void was able to stun Emma, but she wasn't his real enemy, that is why we could see only a fraction of him in her mind, while Void was still alive in other place.

I'm tired of repeating myself.You're the one who doesn't understand the point, or refuses to understand it. Your argument that since we have not seen limits to his molecular manipulation, we should accept what ever we see? Complete nonsense. It's the same crap Dr. Manhattan fans bring up to say he can do whatever he wants, since no one knows his limits.

Answer this question, with just a yes or no, if you can: Does Void have ONE single feat prior to that which is on the same level as beating Molecule Man?

Answer: No. Not a single thing. And this comes from someone who has read EVERY single thing Sentry has ever appeared in. You know what we call one-time feats that are severely above what a character's normal level was portrayed at? PIS, that's what. You know what we call aforementioned feats being justified by BS excuses like "understanding how a power works"? Especially when aforementioned feats fly in the face of canon? Plot, that's what.

I really don't see what part of this is so hard to understand. Why do you keep going around and around in circles saying "Blah blah we haven't seen limits so it can't be PIS blah" and other obvious logical fallacies? It's tiring. I don't know why you keep singing the same song irrespective of the reply.

It's like Spider-Man lifting the entire Daily Bugle building because he was desperate to save people. The feat is ridiculously above what he's consistently been portrayed at, no matter what the motivation or cause, and so nobody bothers taking it into account. It's the same story here.

What on Earth are you talking about? That MM was not on Surfer's level either. Where do you get this stuff that's so obviously not true?

And again, what on Earth are you talking about? Void was dead during Nation X, all the Emma and Xavier feats I quoted took place then. Again, what is so hard to understand about this? Void's best feat is beating Thor. That's about it. Beating Molecule Man was PIS, whether you like it or not, and he did nothing that dozens of people inferior to Xavier, like Romulus, Legion, Mystique, Gambit and others, haven't all done at some point or another.

@czarny_samael666 said:

I know You're tired,because You don't understand.

Yeah, I don't understand.....good grief.......

Exaclty: If we didn't see a limits to someone's power, everything is possible for him

Don't be ridiculous. Are you aware what a massive logical fallacy this is? I suppose you also think Dr. Manhattan can one-shot Surfer because we haven't seen or heard of any limits to his power? Because that is a logical extension of your senseless position on the matter. Get real.

by simple greater knowledge of his power can pull greater feats like Nova Prime in his two fights against Annihilus, young Thunderstirke during his mini or Quasar during his series - they all were shown in the begining to be weaker than in the end of the strories).

........this has got to be the worst batch of supporting examples I've ever seen since I've joined CV. Congratulations. Nova had an actual, stated, on-panel boost that increased his power. He didn't have any sudden epiphanies about his power or any other crap like that the way Void did. Thunderstrike and Quasar did not manifest new power levels OUT OF NOWHERE, they had gradual development that makes their power increases a lot more sensible than Void's BS. Are these your idea of examples? Seriously?

How can You not understand that Void without knowledge about his power, couldn't show great feats, since no one showed him what is it or how it works.

How can you not understand that Void did NOT gain any knowledge about his power? How can you not OPEN the issue and read for yourself that on the page right after where it's said he "understands how his power works", it's Sentry who's speaking and not Void? He doesn't have the black eyes in that panel where he says he cannot die, his eyes are completely normal, and he says he understands his power. That was Sentry, not Void. Go ahead and read it for yourself instead of wasting my time. It's Dark Avengers #12, page 16. I'd post scans but they're a waste of time on someone who continually ignores what's right in front of him. How can YOU not understand that knowledge about a power in no way contributes to such a ridiculously high increase in power levels? Again, it's like Spider-Man finding his inner resolve and lifting over 100 tons despite all the prior evidence that contradicts it. Seriously, if your argument consists solely of repetitive logical fallacies this is an exercise in futility.

And no, we don't call situation like this PIS.

Perhaps on the planet you grew up on, but here on Earth......

PIS is when people are doing things that blocks their power or run from battle, because some plot accident.

A block/plot accident that did not EXIST ANYWHERE IN SENTRY'S PUBLISHING HISTORY before Bendis made it up. You want another example (one that makes sense, rather than the nonsense you provided)? It's like the fight between Wolverine and Nitro during Civil War where Wolverine discovered there was a small field around Nitro's body that was immune to his powers. That field does not exist ANYWHERE in Nitro's history other than that series, just as Sentry's "plot accident block" does not exist ANYWHERE else in his history other than that nonsense. Keep digging that hole.

Sentry losing to WWHulk is PIS, since only due to plot, Sentry was wasting his energy around and not aiming WWHulk.

Bob Reynolds lost to Bruce Banner. Sentry did not lose to WWHulk. And this example has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels, it has to do with a character's behavior during a particular fight. It's more writer generated CIS than it is PIS. Learn the definitions before posting idiotic examples.

PIS also happened in fight between Blue Marvel and King Hyperion, because KH was shown as an overconfident idiot that didn't finish the job when he had a chance.

Again, this example has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels, it has to do with a character's behavior during a particular fight. It's more writer generated CIS than it is PIS. Learn the definitions before posting idiotic examples.

PIS is when each other X-Men is going on WWHulk separately, even while they are known from team work.

Again, this example has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels, it has to do with a character's behavior during a particular fight. It's more writer generated CIS than it is PIS. Learn the definitions before posting idiotic examples.

Did something like that happen in Dark Avengers? No, completly no.

CIS? Nope. PIS? Plenty. I believe I've already covered that nonsensical synopsis of the fight you came up with in various places above, it would be a waste of my time to elaborate on it further. Just glance up and try reading for a change.

Prove that this MM wasn't at Surfr level. Prove to me that he was weaker. Until You can show me when he depowered even further, Void is powerfull enough to win it alone.

Are you honestly being this.........I'm going to play it safe and say uninspired or are you just trolling now? What on Earth did this MM do to be on Surfer's level? Nothing. Not one single thing. You're the one who claimed he was on Surfer's level. If you can make a statement like that, then surely you must have some proof for it. So where is it? I'll save you further embarrassment: there is none. He did absolutely nothing that Surfer couldn't do a dozen times better, and do it better as well. Of all the idiotic things I've seen people say on this site, this has got to take the cake.

Honestly, it's like you can't wade two inches into one of your arguments without getting hit in the face by a logical fallacy.

Whatever You like it or not, Void can one-shot whole Green Team without a problem. And acctually it will PIS if he wouldn't.

You keep telling yourself that if it helps you feel better.

@czarny_samael666 said:

I know You're tired,because You don't understand.

Yeah, I don't understand.....good grief.......

Exaclty: If we didn't see a limits to someone's power, everything is possible for him

Don't be ridiculous. Are you aware what a massive logical fallacy this is? I suppose you also think Dr. Manhattan can one-shot Surfer because we haven't seen or heard of any limits to his power? Because that is a logical extension of your senseless position on the matter. Get real.

by simple greater knowledge of his power can pull greater feats like Nova Prime in his two fights against Annihilus, young Thunderstirke during his mini or Quasar during his series - they all were shown in the begining to be weaker than in the end of the strories).

........this has got to be the worst batch of supporting examples I've ever seen since I've joined CV. Congratulations. Nova had an actual, stated, on-panel boost that increased his power. He didn't have any sudden epiphanies about his power or any other crap like that the way Void did. Thunderstrike and Quasar did not manifest new power levels OUT OF NOWHERE, they had gradual development that makes their power increases a lot more sensible than Void's BS. Are these your idea of examples? Seriously?

How can You not understand that Void without knowledge about his power, couldn't show great feats, since no one showed him what is it or how it works.

How can you not understand that Void did NOT gain any knowledge about his power? How can you not OPEN the issue and read for yourself that on the page right after where it's said he "understands how his power works", it's Sentry who's speaking and not Void? He doesn't have the black eyes in that panel where he says he cannot die, his eyes are completely normal, and he says he understands his power. That was Sentry, not Void. Go ahead and read it for yourself instead of wasting my time. It's Dark Avengers #12, page 16. I'd post scans but they're a waste of time on someone who continually ignores what's right in front of him. How can YOU not understand that knowledge about a power in no way contributes to such a ridiculously high increase in power levels? Again, it's like Spider-Man finding his inner resolve and lifting over 100 tons despite all the prior evidence that contradicts it. Seriously, if your argument consists solely of repetitive logical fallacies this is an exercise in futility.

And no, we don't call situation like this PIS.

Perhaps on the planet you grew up on, but here on Earth......

PIS is when people are doing things that blocks their power or run from battle, because some plot accident.

A block/plot accident that did not EXIST ANYWHERE IN SENTRY'S PUBLISHING HISTORY before Bendis made it up. You want another example (one that makes sense, rather than the nonsense you provided)? It's like the fight between Wolverine and Nitro during Civil War where Wolverine discovered there was a small field around Nitro's body that was immune to his powers. That field does not exist ANYWHERE in Nitro's history other than that series, just as Sentry's "plot accident block" does not exist ANYWHERE else in his history other than that nonsense. Keep digging that hole.

Sentry losing to WWHulk is PIS, since only due to plot, Sentry was wasting his energy around and not aiming WWHulk.

Bob Reynolds lost to Bruce Banner. Sentry did not lose to WWHulk. And this example has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels, it has to do with a character's behavior during a particular fight. It's more writer generated CIS than it is PIS. Learn the definitions before posting idiotic examples.

PIS also happened in fight between Blue Marvel and King Hyperion, because KH was shown as an overconfident idiot that didn't finish the job when he had a chance.

Again, this example has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels, it has to do with a character's behavior during a particular fight. It's more writer generated CIS than it is PIS. Learn the definitions before posting idiotic examples.

PIS is when each other X-Men is going on WWHulk separately, even while they are known from team work.

Again, this example has absolutely nothing to do with their power levels, it has to do with a character's behavior during a particular fight. It's more writer generated CIS than it is PIS. Learn the definitions before posting idiotic examples.

Did something like that happen in Dark Avengers? No, completly no.

CIS? Nope. PIS? Plenty. I believe I've already covered that nonsensical synopsis of the fight you came up with in various places above, it would be a waste of my time to elaborate on it further. Just glance up and try reading for a change.

Prove that this MM wasn't at Surfr level. Prove to me that he was weaker. Until You can show me when he depowered even further, Void is powerfull enough to win it alone.

Are you honestly being this.........I'm going to play it safe and say uninspired or are you just trolling now? What on Earth did this MM do to be on Surfer's level? Nothing. Not one single thing. You're the one who claimed he was on Surfer's level. If you can make a statement like that, then surely you must have some proof for it. So where is it? I'll save you further embarrassment: there is none. He did absolutely nothing that Surfer couldn't do a dozen times better, and do it better as well. Of all the idiotic things I've seen people say on this site, this has got to take the cake.

@czarny_samael666: What is this 'don't know the limits to their power, so they have limitless power!' stuff? We don't know the limits to Lois Lane's strength, but I'm pretty darn sure she's not stronger then Superman.

Basically this is about a frequency distribution.

Lets say we take a random sample of Void's feats, and rate them in power levels from one to ten. We find the following; 5,6,5,7,10,3,6,7,6,6.

Well his lowest feat is a three. His highest is a ten. We wouldn't say 'His power level is 10!' any more then we would say 'his power level is 3!'. We take the most consistent value's. Generally we would say his power level is 6, because that's the power we see the most often.

When you judge the power of a character, you have to go by what's the most consistent. You can't cherry pick one that you like, and base everything on that.

@czarny_samael666: What is this 'don't know the limits to their power, so they have limitless power!' stuff? We don't know the limits to Lois Lane's strength, but I'm pretty darn sure she's not stronger then Superman.

Basically this is about a frequency distribution.

Lets say we take a random sample of Void's feats, and rate them in power levels from one to ten. We find the following; 5,6,5,7,10,3,6,7,6,6.

Well his lowest feat is a three. His highest is a ten. We wouldn't say 'His power level is 10!' any more then we would say 'his power level is 3!'. We take the most consistent value's. Generally we would say his power level is 6, because that's the power we see the most often.

When you judge the power of a character, you have to go by what's the most consistent. You can't cherry pick one that you like, and base everything on that.

@czarny_samael666: There are times you can look to a characters greatest feat as an example of their abilities in an area. If that characters feat is consistent with their development up to that point, logical, and doesn't contradict anything that's come before it.

Void's single feat involving MM doesn't seem to be one of those cases, because its not consistent with what has came before it. It doesn't make any sense, and its never followed up on. Common sense and logic would indicate that its simply a common example of a writer doing something for the sake of the plot he wanted.

I believe you miss my point about frequency distributions. I've given a hypothetical feat a numerical value, with greater value corresponding to greater power. Then I've given a list of showings. Some are high, some are low, but the majority fall within a certain spread. Using this one can determine a characters overall power. High, and low showings are often outliers, which shouldn't be used for or against the character because they often reflect the needs of the plot, or writer error, not power.