Team DC Speedsters vs Marvel Powerhouses

If bloodlusted, I don't see any one on DC speed team beating Surfer.

Dude that was what I said, word for word

Here Jay was approaching Light speed with BA falling well behind him before he stole his speed (from a distance) and went way past light speed and broke the time barrier.

That was from by big wall of post explaining how their speed steal would affect the opponents. The start of the loss of mass was in the panel where he stated so ( it's the green energy that is suddenly coming off him) he also however stated 186,000 miles per hour - speed of light indicating he had reached that speed. Relativity my friend states that when you reach light speed light travels at light speed relative to you. In other words light speed in itself is actually FTL because in that energy form you aren't bound by normal constraints.

In JSA 30 Jay disappeared in front of them. An act of faster than light movement. it might have only been for a zepto second (and likely was with his heart condition) but it happened. ONCE AGAIN, I am not referring to his trip to get fate I am referring to his dissapearing and not being able to be perceived as anything but a blur. Light travels to us at the speed of light so that we see. If Jay only traveled at or near Light speed we would see a stream or line or after image ( the way it's NORMALLY shown on panel). To completely disappear he has to move so fast that he isn't in a single point long enough for light to reach him and bounce off. HOW MANY TIMES do I have to explain that. Even if everyone there had NORMAL perceptions that is a faster then light feat. The fact is Blue Moon possesses Super Speed and strength. Enough that PG was unable to dodge her blows and PG is a naonsecond reaction person, as is Jessie Quick who also couldn't dodge her.

None of this changes the fact that when Jay steal speed he is still acting under his OWN POWER. BA doesn't give him the speed he takes it. That is what Jay can do. Clearly since he can steal speed ( which he couldn't during the period he wasn't a light speeder because his connection to the speed force was severed when Wally entered it and returned when he did) he can go FTL because he can always get a boost. So I'm sorry but the evidence is quite irrefutable in four separate instances now I've shown that he can attain FTL power. You said he can't.

@beatboks1 said:

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@beatboks1 said:

.The parts of two posts I made showing the slower and frailer of the two flashes speed stealing. PLus speed steal invalidates most of Surfers powers as matter maip and energy manip (and yes opening black holes) requires movement which is speed. The fact that both Flash's can steal said speed they can shut every power of the opposition down

How does Surfer deal with speed steal, or getting hit by thousands of IMPs per second? He couldnt deal with even 7 punches from Thanos.

DC speedsters can avoid damage for awhile. But the only one I see who can actually hurt anyone on Team Marvel is Superman. So Superman VS three superman level characters? SilverSurfer,Nova and Gladiator?

So Team Marvel for the win.

@jagernutt: Wally hits harder than Superman.Jay and Wally can speed steal together the whole Marvel Team

@reaverlation: Can you post scans. Ive never seen any of the Flashs beat people on Surfers or Gladiators power level this way.

@jagernutt: Wally taking Amazo's speed.Look at earlier posts made here and you'll see Jay stealing Superman's and Black Adam's speed

@reaverlation: I guess its not as one sided as I thought.

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And even though he's not the most powerful person here, Superman has a predilection to, yes, speed-blitz the most of anyone here besides Flash(as well as arguably use his speed defensively). Whether people like it or not, it plays a factor.

Not just the stealing of the characters own speed but both flashes can use speed steal to take away the momentum of anything. This includes objects, matter and energy. Hence completely eliminating/nullifying the powers of all three marvel characters.

You want evidence of JLAers facing black holes, hows this

Superman holding and carrying a black hold in his hands. The strain was unbelievable

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Here he is escaping one

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Wonder woman pulling MMH out of one and then another instance of her pulling herself out of one with her lasso

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Here we have a green lantern (Kyle) containing 99 (IIRC) black holes with his ring

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Would you like me to continue?? There are more members able to deal with Black holes.

You asked for scans of Flash stealing speed from someone on SS's level. Amazo is above SS's level. He possesses the combined power of these three plus Flash, MMH, and Aquaman as a base and the one that Flash speed stole from also had the powers of Zatanna, Captain Atom, Firestorm, and several others. Amazo of the 90's >>> Silver Surfer.

On the vine we take the characters abilities and their morals etc and do not apply PIS. This for almost all characters eliminates low end showings and in some cases high end ones (not as often though). In cheracter without PIS there are plenty of charcters who can defeat Flash and have in debates. Most of them are high herald level (which all three of the Marvel Teeam are, and if Flash was in character could). Out of character/bloodlusted there are still those who can beat Flash but the bar is raised to trans level (which no one here is any where near).

This however only applies to Wally since he's the only DC speedster who has Speed steal and full powers of the speed force. The rest of the DC speedsters (except maybe Barry) don't fare so well at all. Johnny and Jessie Quick, Max Mercury, Jay Garrick (ironically the only other speedster with speed steal feats and capability but more limited), Inertia, Impulse, Tornado Twins, XS, Savitar, Rival, Zyklon, Blue trinity, Red Trinity, Mayfly and others.

Speedsters still stomp.

@beatboks1: still nowhere near SS, he fought in a black hole but nice scan.As for speed steal, why can't SS use power cosmic?Still not convinced.

@ghostrider2: Didn't u read what he just said? Stops all movement.

@demonknights: so what?Matter, energy?Sorry but i find SS superior there.

@ghostrider2: your not getting it. amazo is all those powers combined and stacked. The strength of Superman + WW+MMH+ Captain Atom+ Aquaman. The speed of Flash + Supes+ WW + MMH etc. the durability of all of them. The energy and matter manip of Captain Atom + Firestorm etc.

amazo has every power SS has to a greater degree and Flash took his speed and left him completely motionless. Amazo would be able to do more than fight inside a black hole since he'd have the strength and durability to hold one combined with that needed to escape one combined with energy manip on a level to contain 99. Hell he he could fight is several at once.

Containing 99 black holes >>>>>>>>> fighting in 1

@ghostrider2: so what? Lol. Yea you're right, So what that the flash can speed steal and stop all movement from happening. Lol

Where is this logic coming from?

Wally hits much harder than Superman. Jay can hurt Black Adam with his punches.

@beatboks1: aight, i knew what speed steal is, well the basics but if it works via energy, matter, SS can handle reality warping, he fought it off.I also talked the rest of the league when i said he fought in one.I will be more precise next time.

@frozen: from lack of knowledge of characters

Hmmm so everyone thinks DC speedsters win, yet Silver Surfer oblierates them all. Surfer flys off planet kills supers by taking his power away. Then surfer would take the speedforce away from wally and jay, besides surfer can go forward in time or back in time if need be. surfer himself would destroy that team and if need be he can phase through things just like flash and surfer can control his molecules and matter remember he has the power of cosmic which means he can basically do what ever he wants.

@burnout1212: yea, no. Flash is faster.

None of this addresses that Wally can perceive much faster than Surfer.

@beatboks1: You are trying to defend something that will always happen. Every battle will always be biased.

Questions

1. How does Surfer fly off planet when his momentum/speed is absorbed and he can't move?
2. how does he absorb the solar energy Superman has been charged with to depower him without moving the energy ( as speed steal would also stop that)?
3. How does he achieve that when power cosmic has nothing what so ever to do with speed force?
4. How does he travel through time when he can't move / travel because of speed absorbed?
5. how does he phase if he can't shift his molecules to become intangible ?
6. how does he matter manipulate and control his molecules if the motion of the protons, neutrons etc is stopped.

Molecular manipulation, energy manipulation, time travel, phasing ALL require movement (as in speed - and is doesn't have to be much speed). when Faced with someone who has the ability to absorb speed, momentum and the kinetic energy of ANYTHING just about all other powers are stopped dead.

Against an in character Flash there would be a fight, because wall rarely ever uses speed steal or lend in character and Jay hates it and thinks it's cheating. The two flashes in this thread are the only ones capable of either speed steal or lend.

Bloodlusted as in truly out to kill, wally and Jay wouldn't even allow their opponents to move an muscle. They would not allow them to move the smallest amount of energy. If you had no morals and were out for blood and had the power to absorb all motion, why would you even allow anything the chance to move against you. They would make all three Marvel powerhouses complete and utter statues one zeptosecond into the fight. None of the three would be able to use any power without speed.

I wasn't defending anything. I was pointing out that you made a blanket statement that is factually completely inaccurate. You stated the All Comicvine has ALL DC Speedster beat everyone when in actual fact I can point to several dozen threads where many of those said speedster got cropped all over. Blanket statements are NEVER correct.

Here are some examples of DC speedster getting stomped on the vine

No one even put up an argument for max mercury here

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/max-mercury-vs-mirrior-master-397123/

Jesse Quick beaten by Jade

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/jesse-quick-vs-jade-579243/

Makkiri beat Several DC Speedsters here

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/race-flash-johnny-quick-makkari-the-runner-sonic-652878/

Northstar beat Johnny Quick here

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/johnny-quick-vs-northstar-557743/

Yeah CLEARLY "nobody" beats a DC speedster on the vine

It was because ive never seen any Flash defeat a character as powerful as Surfer or Gladiator by himself.Your alittle late calling me on this lol. But I'm not convinced that he can percieve faster than Surfer.

@frozen:

I know that Surfer and Gladiator are planet busters and Surfer has reality warping abilities with cosmic awareness. Gladiator is pretty much marvel Superman. I've never viewed Amazo as more powerful than Superman.

I don't think that a blackhole can even annoy the Silver Surfer.

@beatboks1:

Progress! Awesome.

...or maybe not. I just saw jaegernutts post. (Sigh)

@jagernutt: you have got to be kidding. How can Amazo not be more powerful than Superman when he has all Supes power plus those of every other JLAer on top. Adding WW and MMH and Aquaman's strength to his means amazo is at least three times stronger. Those plus Flashs speed means four times faster. His durability is also close to four times Supes. The TP of MMH + Aquaman. MMH's TK, shape shifting, phasing, invisibility. Hal's powers ( that allow him to do much of what Superman can also stacked on top). Once you add in later member like Cap atom who's strength is almost limitless since he can draw on the quantum field to make himself as strong as he wants, plus his energy and matter manip, time abilities etc. firestorm and his matter and energy manip.

There is no way any reasonable person can think Amazo is only as powerful as superman. For one thing I can think of several instances when he has stomped the whole JLA including Supes. In one of those battles the only way he was beat was Atom whispered in the ear of the battered and nearly broke. Superman to yell that the JLA was disbanded ( which back then depowered Amazo and that wasn't even the most powerful version.

Superman is no where near as fast as flash and the scan above where Wally stole his power shows how Amazo ran rings around him and beat the living pulp out of him in under a second before Wally took his speed. Clearly Amazo is faster than wall and a LOT faster than Supes

@beatboks1: Wow. I guess that makes Amazo beyond planet buster. I'll have to study up on Amazo.

Silver Surfer turns them into pancakes before they can even make a step

@lord44: Good luck proving that

Lol ^ people either just don't read or just don't care for logic

How's he going to do that???

@reaverlation:

@lord44: My scan beats all 3 of yours

@lord44: LOL, that was supposed to prove something?? Showing surfer travel at a miniscule percentage of Wally's top speed?? Wally ran from one end of the universe to the other in less time that it took an neigh omnipotent to instantaneously teleport the distance immediately. He traveled BILLIONS of light years in an instant when the life of everyone on earth depended on him doing so

@beatboks1: Wally was amped when he did that

Zeptoseconds? Man thats gotta be freaking fast cuz i didn't even know a word like that existed lol.

He was at the peak of his power with speed steal, yes. It is however his power to speed steal so it is a feat he can reproduce and bloodlusted likely would if needed. Everyone acts as though speed steal feats means they aren't actual feats for these two when it's their power to speed steal. No one would deny Silver surfer the ability to drain Superman's solar radiation charge in a battle between them because that's within his power, but for some reason flash's can't achieve speeds they do with speed steal ? Hardly seems an equitable treatment of characters now does it?

@beatboks1: He could but the amount of speed he'd need to steal is a lot.

I agree on the Flash thing.You think people would catch on that Flash from Jay to Wally are actually pretty powerful characters but hey Flash will still be that person that just runs fast.

@reaverlation: yeah the weird part is I haven't even started on speed lend. Wally has stopped bullets dead in their tracks and made other things travel with great speed at his assailants. He run and pick up a piece of adamantium and have it fly at any of these guys many times the speed of light without even throwing it. He could speed up the movement in thei molecules and disintegrate them or have the friction of movement of their atoms burn them to nothing. Lend speed to the blood in their bodies to give them heart attacks. He could speed up the movement of their own energy attacks so they go nova or have them loose control of their own energy and succumb to it. He could speed up their attacks in another direction and BFR them to the far side of the universe before they knew what happened.

None of which he'd do in character but blood lusted as he is here he would

Curious... can flash steal infinite amounts of energy? Are there no limits to the amount of energy/speed that he can take on? At least 2 of these beings have access to unlimited/ near unlimited cosmic power, nova force being slightly different. Is flash so OP that he's damn near omnipotent simply cause morals are off? Seems ridiculous

Call me stupid but that amazo scan seems like pure pis. Flash is being beaten to death by someone who is clearly OP, with all said powers combined, but he just gets frozen (I didnt think he froze him, looks to me that flash just high tailed it outta there)

Flash is linked to the speed force that is ALL speed and just as much an endless source of "speed" as Power Cosmic and Nova Force are endless power. In human race he absorbed all the speed of a world of speedsters plus earth and every super speed character on the planet in order to win the race. A couple of Nigh Omnipotents put a challenge to him that if he beat them to earth they would spare earth form destruction and he won. Why are we to assume that the power cosmic and Nova force are any more "unlimited" than the speed force that is supposed to be all Speed in existence?

If all Flash did was run away than Amazo (who's faster) would have stopped him. It also clearly said he took his speed in the scan.

Damn. Class is in session. Beatboks is impressive.

@toptiergoat: Surfer doesn't have unlimited power.He's been drained complete of his power before.

That's it. I've officially heard Silver Surfer can turn his opponents into chicken and pancakes(between two different posters). I don't know if I can anymore.............

Pancakes are good for the soul.

@wolverine08: Indeed. They are an essential component to quell every pre-adolescent overzealous fans' dietary needs.

Well there you have it, people: Surfer can change damn near anyone into the better equivalent of a Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles meal before they can move. The Flash is obviously being overrated, and you all need to stop making things up(on panel), and being such fanboys.............