Team Aang vs The Red Lotus

@arcus:

1. While she was wasting her time aiming and concentrating her combustion blasts, bolin managed to hit her with a pebble. A pebble. On two seperate occasions from what i recall her aim has been misdirected. Which wouldn't have happened to the likes of zuko or azula or any regular fire bender. They would be better focusing on their surroundings. On like regular fire bendes she has to focus on a single target. She relies mainly on the AoE of the explosion to hit her target not the projectile its self.

2. Okay here is the thing, regular firebending(depends on who's using it, maybe like zuko or azula or ozai or iroh) can be compared to hand grenades, while combustion utilization can be compared to a RPGs in a sense. I'm pretty sure a dozen of hand grenades can compare to a rpg. In firepower.

Actually, none of this makes a difference at all.

Regular fire bending can be combined in close combat, agility, mobility, defense and versatility. Please tell me the multiple amazing things that combustion can do. Because like i said there is a 1-2 second delay, she cannot spam combustion blasts. What would she do if zuko spams fire blasts while he closes in? Please humor me.

3.You mean during the first time when they tried to kidnap korra? They were in a giant pit of lava and sat in the middle of a circle of enemies, since there was four of them attacking from multiple angles, no one really had blind spots in comparison to one person being surrounded.So everyone could cover each other. P'li during that situation clearly can only focus on a single target at a time. Plus when she got hit in the head by a pebble her concentration messed up and she ended up hurting herself and her teammates.

Look closely at this fight, each time, she was about to get attack she got protected by one of her teammates.(notice how she doesn't use regular fire bending to simply blast each attack that comes at her BTW) And she could only focus on single targets when using combustion bending.

All zuko has to do is spam fire blasts, in character she doesn't use regular fire bending as much as you think thats lowballing and stupid the show presents this. She will likely counter them but zuko can spam them while closing in on her. Or he can create fire whips to easily dispatch her at mid-range. Something lin could have done with her metal bending uniform. She could have wrapped p'li with her wires.

This debate is cycling to the same thing anyway. I have a CAV to get to. You clearly don't comprehend why i think p'li's fighting style is inefficient.

@deathhero61: Yes, she has been taken down....both times by multiple benders who had to distract and attack in conjunction to accomplish the feat. No one bender on the other team would be capable of doing so by themselves.

@deathhero61: I comprehend what you think, I just think you're wrong

Yes, Bolin landed a shot. Like Azula and Zuko have never been tagged before

Are you saying Azula and Zuko never miss? Because that's wrong.

P'li can get off a combustion blast before Zuko could shoot a dozen fire blasts

Combustion doesn't need to do multiple things if it does one thing very effectively. Versatility doesn't always equal a win. P'li is more than capable of blocking fire blasts, she's done it every time she's fought a firebender.

Being hit by Bolin didn't "mess up her concentration" The forehead is a weak spot for Combustion benders. If they get hit by something on their third eye they lose control of their powers tdmporarially. That's what happened to P'li. Zuko can't land a shot like that with fire.

Her teammates protected her, so what? That's the purpose of having a team, you help each other out

She can block or counter Zuko's fire bending and keep him at bay with combustion like she did to Lin and Su.

Just because you think it's inefficient doesn't mean it actually is

Round one: The Red Lotus win 9/10

With P'Li on the battlefield, Team Avatar wouldn't even be able to get close to the Red Lotus, yet alone land an attack on them, The situation will be exactly same as Team Avatar's predicament at 'The western air temple', except this combustion bender can curve her shots and is very agile, effortlessly dodging all of Lin & Su's attacks Su's attacks.. P'Li was able to keep all the metal benders at bay and forced Lin and su to take cover.

With Team Avatar being held at bay, Ghazan torches the place with lava. However, it does depends on wether or not Ghazan can create the lava faster than Aang can cool it. But considering how effortless Ghazan destroyed the Air Temple, I'd say Ghazan has it in the bud.

Another problem is Toph. Toph is at a disadvantage as she cannot see P'li's combustion shots coming at her. She would have to rely on her friends for support her. I think Toph will also struggle with Zaheer, especially since he can fly, which makes the task of her landing a hit nigh impossible. Then there is Lava! Ghazan can nullify any earth material Toph creates, which make things even more difficult for her. There would be no way for Toph to counter his Lava attacks, especially if they're projectiles. Remember his Lava shrunken?

If Katara engages Ming-Hua in a 1 on 1, I think it initially Katara would hold her own, but Ming-Hua's fighting style and her relentlessness would overwhelm her, especially when Ming-Hua is always going for the kill. IMO, I think Kya is a representation of what prime Katara could. Bloodlusted Katara fairs much better, but ultimately she would lose

Round Two is still a win for the Red Lotus, but it is more difficult. Aang had 3 elements at the time and he was completely ineffective against Combustion Man. And we're talking about 3 other powerful benders with equally as powerful abilities. It took a lucky shot from Sokka to get him. Even Zuko's attempts proved ineffective. However, Zuko was demonstrated that he could create fire bending strong enough to at leaf offset some of the combustion damage.

All things considered, I don't think any of it will matter as the Gang will be forced to take cover, due to P'Li's combustion attacks.

Do both teams have prep? OP didn't mention it.

Team Avatar stomp

@tylercollinsxx said: So Team Aang consists of:

Aang

Katara

Toph

Zuko

(Include Sokka if you feel it could change the outcome of the battle)

The Red Lotus consists of:

Zaheer

Ming-Hua

Ghazan

P'Li

Round 1:

Aang can only use Airbending

No avatar state

No bloodbending

Morals off

Round 2:

Aang can use all 4 elements

No Avatar State

No bloodbending

Morals off

Both fights take place in the Crystal Catacombs.

^^Nothing here says that these guys have to fight their elemental equivalent.

Why not switch it up a bit? & I'm pretty damned sure it wouldn't be so rigid & inflexible if this fight really happened. There would most definitely be some teamwork & switchups throughout this battle. Just a point no one seems to have mentioned.

Even if you don't care for my pairings, just pay mind to my reasons & apply them to the previous pairings.

Aang vs. P'li

We saw how Aang blocked Combustion man's blast, which means he can surely block P'li's.

Combustion Man's blast was larger in scale & more direct, due to his lack of control (which if you all look up is the reason he lost his limbs at an early age). & compared to P'li's, who's control is more finely tuned to the point where she can curve her shots, the trade-off is that her shots are smaller on scale. & for those of you who want to use her blast against Zuko's dragon as a counter, it isn't. She was in an enviroment which negated her bending, but after 13 years of tundra the first thing she did was disperse the dragon blast, absorb the heat, from I repeat A DRAGON, the original firebenders, & used her combustion blast, however small in comparison to CM's, combustion is combustion, in tandem w/ the heat she just absorbed, you better believe she's knocking it out of the sky. An impressive feat for someone who'd been locked away for so long, I might add, no matter how small Zuko's dragon is compared to the Ancient dragons, Ran & Shaw.

Aang almost ALWAYS utilizes his enhanced speed which P'li would surely need to focus on that alone b/c of how random & free Airbending is, it isn't confined to remaining on the ground level. & if this is morals off, then Aang's definitely knocking her out w/ his Air wake (By running in a circle and instantly building massive momentum, a master airbender can shoot a blast of highly compressed air shaped like the user's body at a target. This move seems to have extremely high concussive force. It was first used by Aang in the Crystal Catacombs against Zuko.) If this move had such force to send Zuko flying, then if he lands that hit on P'li right before a combustion blast, I've no doubt that she'll knock herself out.

Katara vs. Zaheer

On top of Zaheer previously having been a badass non-bender, so much that he needed locking away in a similar manner to his teammates, who are all elite, special benders, applying that to his knowledge of Air Nomad philosophy has definitely made him a top tear threat. & when you add Asphyxiation & flight into the mix, this guy pretty serious. Not sure what Katara could do about that unless she was in the tundra or the ocean. W/ much love for my favorite character, Katara, I'm gonna have to give this to Zaheer. & for those of you who want to compare her second rate daughter, Kya, to her mother, who's arguably the greatest living waterbending master in the Avatarverse (probably grandmaster by the time Korra came around) then just remember that w/ the help of some sub-par lotus sentries, but help nontheless, she was beaten way before he ever got the flight.

Toph vs. Ming-Hua

Ming-hua, however deft & dexterous she is w/ waterbending, I don't think she'd land a hit on Toph due to her seimic sense. & though being in your own element may not always call for the win, I believe it does in this case. Crystal Catacombs. Remember Aang's earthbending in the Catacombs? Imagine that, but amplified since Toph's a far better earthbender than Aang was ever shown to be, unless he's in the Avatar State, but those feats don't really matter in this situation.

Zuko vs. Ghazan

Ghazan gets this, not just b/c we already saw him beat an aged & frail Zuko, who was in his element's opposite environment, w/ boulders, who had no feats other than that fight, but b/c he'd overwhelm Zuko w/ the lavabending. Since Zuko can redirect lightning, it isn't out of the realm of reason for him to do so w/ the heat in the lava. Though he's never shown doing this, Sozin was. If you watch around 3:25 carefully, the fluid motions, stance & style are the same as lightning redirection. Heat redirection allows for the absorption of heat from one hand and passing through one's body and out the other hand. Lot's of people forget that bending is just the elemental & fantastic representation of martial arts. It's all about application. We've never seen Zuko in any situation where that might have been helpful, but the point still stands.

Anyways, IF Zuko was ever shown redirecting heat it's not like Ghazan is just gonna stand there & wait for him to finish sucking the heat out of his lava when there's only more lava to be made. Anything Zuko cools down can just as easily be heated back up.

Also a lot of people seem to forget that although Firebending is focused on the positive jing (attacking) & it's the element of power, the Sun Warriors proved it to be more than that. After Zuko got his Sun Warrior training (if that's what you wanna call it) rather than being quick & evasive, he began to use a series of defensive moves, which we'd never really seen him using before. & sadly the only real explicit representation of this is during Sozin's comet when all the Firebending was augmented to extremes. But that isn't to say the techniques are lost. Just not as powerful.

Anyways that's my 2 cents. Let me know what I got wrong guys. I'm loving this battle thread! =]

Also like the person avbove just asked.... is there any prep allowed or is this a random encounter, w/ standard gear?

First off I wanna say the most dangerous persons in terms of wide range destructive attacks on team Zaheer are obviously Ghazan and P'li

However in a team v team fight their effectiveness is lessened, especially in an arena like the crystal catacombs. Because if P'li isn't careful with those blasts she might end up killing her own teammates. And Ghazan needs to keep an eye on his lava so it doesn't go melting Minghua

Combustion Man unlike P'li had no teammates so he just let loose trying to kill everybody.

Lemme see Katara vs Ming hua. I see a stale mate. A lot of people are saying how Ming hua might over power katara due to her aggressive acrobatic fighting style, but I just wanna say "Remember Azula". Azula was the definition of a firebending ninja, she balanced A class physical skills with her bending making her a powerful threat. However Katara was able to stalemate her everytime they fought and in the book 2 finale even overpower her, heck she almost cut her head off at one point with a water blade. Why? Because katara is good at adapting. Plus she could match Ming hua tentacle for tentacle with her octopus style (which she used to hold off several dai lee agents). If anything I see a stale mate.

Aang vs Zaheer. Aang in every round. As quick as Zaheer is, Aang is a master airbender and if you look back at his pure air bending days you will realize he was hell to pin down. I think it would be Tenzin v Zaheer all over again. aang would dominate with his experience and knowledge in airbending.

Toph v Ghazan. This one I had to give A LOT of thought. One of the reasons this fight was so difficult to decide was because of the question "Can Toph manipulate lava?" I know she can't generate it, but once lava is made, it is still mainly comprised of earth just like mud or sand or metal. But unlike metal where it's tiny fragments of earth, lava is still purely earth. So what is to prevent her from earth blocking it. Furthermore a lot of people mention how bolins earth was turned against him. Well look at the magnitude of Bolin's earth bending vs Tophs. Toph's earth bending was HUGE. one of her greatest feats in my opinion was when they laid seige to the Earth Kingdom Palace and she lowered the entire stairway. Bolin has never showed power on that scale and his attacks were more basic earthbending sized. So its understandible that Ghazan could easily and quickly turn it into Lava. However it has been shown that for larger masses it takes him more time to transmute them. And unlike with the air temple where he had the luxury of melting stuff slowly as he back tracked, in a heated fight like this he would need to stay on his toes. Heck if Ghazan was turning the ground in front of Toph to lava she could just subduct that section of land and flip it over, so it would cool. granted I do believe dealing with the lava wouldn't exactly be easy. But Toph's feats has me confident she could handle it fine. Oh and about projectiles. From it comes from the earth she can calculate trajectory and stuff. remember her fights in the arena? Plus her hearing is advanced so she can hear stuff moving through the air. It is actually advanced to such a degree that she can use it to estimate Appas position in the sky (when he is close enough) and launch herself using earth at an angle so she lands squarely in the passenger seat. So stalemate

Zuko vs P'li: This is the only fight where I at first just said "Oh obviously the red lotus member would take it". But a comment from someone made me rethink it. In the fight against Lin and Suyin the way the battle went was basically they would fire stuff at her and she would either dodge/blow it up and then counter attack. Lin/Suyin were being pushed back because her counter attacks were greater in range and power than their attacks so they couldn't as easily dodge/block the blasts and were forced to take the defensive. And that is how it kinda was with team avatar. They would send out and attack and CM (Combustion man) would blow it up or dodge it and then counter attack with huge explosions that they had to focus on blocking or avoiding. In the end they beat him through Sokkas skill, but had the fight continued who knows what would have happened. if anything I believe Zuko can keep her distracted for a while. But then he is going to lose at some point. Although he has been shown capable of blocking the combustion blasts even at close range. So he could probably evade her for a while. But meh

In the end though I'd say team avatar 3/4 in round one

Round two they would dominate in terms of they usually fight to knock out not kill but without morals loooooool, I remember blood thirsty katara and aang and I just say lol. They'd win in a land slide. Except Zuko unfortunately (if he had lightening then the outcome would possibly be different, but alas nope)

^^Nothing here says that these guys have to fight their elemental equivalent.

Why not switch it up a bit? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be so rigid & inflexible if this fight really happened. There would most definitely be some teamwork & switchups throughout this battle. Just something no one seems to have mentioned.

Even if you don't care for my pairings, just pay mind to my reasons & apply them to the previous pairings.

Aang vs. P'li

We saw how Aang blocked Combustion man's blast, which means he can surely block P'li's.

Combustion Man's blast was larger in scale & more direct, due to his lack of control (which if you all look up is the reason he lost his limbs at an early age). & compared to P'li's, who's control is more finely tuned to the point where she can curve her shots, the trade-off is that her shots are smaller on scale. & for those of you who want to use her blast against Zuko's dragon as a counter, it isn't. She was in an enviroment which negated her bending, but after 13 years of tundra the first thing she did was disperse the dragon blast, absorb the heat, from I repeat A DRAGON, the original firebenders, & used her combustion blast, however small in comparison to CM's, combustion is combustion, in tandem w/ the heat she just absorbed, you better believe she's knocking it out of the sky. It got hit w/ the intensity of it's own blast & then some. An impressive feat for someone who'd been locked away for so long, I might add, no matter how small Zuko's dragon is compared to the Ancient dragons, Ran & Shaw.

Aang almost ALWAYS utilizes his enhanced speed which P'li would surely need to focus on that alone b/c of how random & free Airbending is, it isn't confined to remaining on the ground level. & if this is morals off, then Aang's definitely knocking her out w/ his Air wake (By running in a circle and instantly building massive momentum, a master airbender can shoot a blast of highly compressed air shaped like the user's body at a target. This move seems to have extremely high concussive force. It was first used by Aang in the Crystal Catacombs against Zuko.) If this move had such force to send Zuko flying, then if he lands that hit on P'li right before a combustion blast, I've no doubt that she'll knock herself out. Or what will she do when Aang is sending a maelstrom of air currents her way? As intense as combustion bending is, I sincerely believe that Aang w/out morals would overwhelm her w/ his speed & the overall randomness in his fighting style.

Katara vs. Zaheer

On top of Zaheer previously having been a badass non-bender, so much that he needed locking away in a similar manner to his teammates, who are all elite, special benders, applying that to his knowledge of Air Nomad philosophy has definitely made him a top tear threat. & when you add Asphyxiation & flight into the mix, this guy pretty serious. Not sure what Katara could do about that unless she was in the tundra or the ocean. W/ much love for my favorite character, Katara, I'm gonna have to give this to Zaheer. & for those of you who want to compare her second rate daughter, Kya, to her mother, who's arguably the greatest living waterbending master in the Avatarverse (probably grandmaster by the time Korra came around) then just remember that w/ the help of some sub-par lotus sentries, but help nontheless, she was beaten way before he ever got the flight.

Toph vs. Ming-Hua

Ming-hua, however deft & dexterous she is w/ waterbending, I don't think she'd land a hit on Toph due to her seimic sense. & though being in your own element may not always call for the win, I believe it does in this case. Crystal Catacombs. Remember Aang's earthbending in the Catacombs? Imagine that, but amplified since Toph's a far better earthbender than Aang was ever shown to be (unless he's in the Avatar State, but those feats don't really matter in this situation). & every time we've seen Toph fighting in an earth environment, she freaking wrecks shit !! (watch videos below)

& as far as metalbending goes, I don't believe that there's any for her to bend down there so that subskill is out of the question.

Zuko vs. Ghazan

Ghazan gets this, not just b/c we already saw him beat an aged & frail Zuko, who was in his element's opposite environment, w/ boulders, who had no feats other than that fight, but b/c he'd overwhelm Zuko w/ the lavabending. Since Zuko can redirect lightning, it isn't out of the realm of reason for him to do so w/ the heat in the lava. Though he's never shown doing this, Sozin was. If you watch around 3:25 carefully, the fluid motions, stance & style are the same as lightning redirection. Heat redirection allows for the absorption of heat from one hand and passing through one's body and out the other hand. Lot's of people forget that bending is just the elemental & fantastic representation of martial arts. It's all about application. We've never seen Zuko in any situation where that might have been helpful, but the point still stands.

Anyways, IF Zuko was ever shown redirecting heat it's not like Ghazan is just gonna stand there & wait for him to finish sucking the heat out of his lava when there's only more lava to be made. Anything Zuko cools down can just as easily be heated back up.

Also a lot of people seem to forget that although Firebending is focused on the positive jing (attacking) & it's the element of power (which calls for less defending but overwhelming the opponent w/ a plethora of attacks) the Sun Warriors proved it to be more than just an offensive. After Zuko got his Sun Warrior training (if that's what you wanna call it) rather than just relying on being quick & evasive, he began to use a series of defensive moves, which we'd never really seen him using before. & sadly the only real explicit representation of this is during Sozin's comet when all the Firebending was augmented to extremes. But that isn't to say the techniques are lost. Just not as powerful.

Anyways that's my 2 cents. Let me know what I got wrong guys. I'm loving this battle thread! =]

Also like the person above just asked.... is there any prep allowed or is this a random encounter, w/ standard gear?

Aang would beat P'li, but if she lands a direct hit Aang is dead.

@etheral_dreams: Oh most definitely!! But if is the operative word here for a lot of these battles.

Also apologies to everyone for the double post. I didn't realize there wasn't a "Delete" option properly set up.

@lex88: I must say I disagree with you on the Katara vs Zaheer fight.

Zaheers style of fighting is the usual airbending dodge and poke right. While Katara's own is the steady waterbending wait and adapt. Both are passive fighting styles that quickly turn agressive. However for Zaheer to knock katara out he is going to have to enter what I like to refer to as Katara's "Zone". Remember the water octopus? Katara as long as she is near enough water tends to use wide range area of effect attacks. If she doesn't have enough sure she'll go for the smaller ones but in the crystal catacombs she has access to enough water to shore up a steady defence.

So while I couldn't say for sure whether she would be able to tag him (because while he is fast she has tagged fairly fast opponents before) I don't think he will be able to take her

If anything stale mate\

Tbh, i reckon the fight with katara and ming hua is a tricky one,

just because ming is considered quick and overwhelming and her combating style is at an advanced level, people need to consider how katara in her teens practically became a water bending master in a short space of time, also mentioning how with ease she mastered bloodbending practically with no help from hama. Because of her raw talent and her ability to adapt, I think this could be an interesting fight for katara. If katara was to face ming at her old age, ming doesn't get off so easy, even though she would cause some damage, katara will practically be like at master pakkus level if not even further, in the legend of korra shes considered the best healer in the world, whats not to say that shes the best bender in the world? besides whatever age katara is at she would still throw down, in season 2 finale, katara at a younger age than ming bended exactly what ming is doing now, say if they both were to fight with the large age gap then it's fairly tricky because ming is a lot older therefore more experienced as she had enough time to perfect her craft, however the sheer rapidness in the development of kataras bending is something that should also be considered. Overall i think the fight has to be considered in terms of the age difference, are we talking katara younger or at age mirroring mings? also what about elderly katara? xD

For toph vs ghazan, considering toph is the first metal bender, i feel like toph could hold her own, however, ghazan as a lavabender definitely makes the fight more interesting, personally i think toph wouldn't face much trouble in dodging the lava attacks because she could feel any upcoming bending like when she fought at that underground bending club; plus considering bolin spontaneously lava bended, whats to stop toph from doing the same thing as well? However even though toph may learn how to lavabend, her level of bending it is not at the same level as ghazans, besides, if her feet at any time of the fight is unintentionally scolded by the lava, then toph is at a serious disadvantage, so ghazan wins this fight

Aang vs zaheer, i think zaheer would win this fight even though he has lacks experience, as aang would be more passive than how tenzin was when he fought zaheer, because of how aang is as a person and how he grew up with the air nomads who were all about peace, aang would (as the majority of the airbenders) use his airbending more defensively than offensively, i think zaheer could bring a different dimension to the battle as aang had never in his life defended himself against a threatening and skilled airbender

P'li vs zuko, i think it would be more favourable to zuko, as zuko when fighting combustion man, was able to defend himself from close distance shots. In relation to P'li, i think her control over her powers are better than combustion man, but it seems as if she isn't as destructive, so if zuko could manage to survive a close range and more powerful shot from combustion man, then there could be a chance in him winning, especially if he misses or blocks her hits, what could p'li do close range? that could end both her and probably zukos life if she attacked way way closer, and with zukos lightning bending, i think any distance, P'li is at a serious disadvantage if she gets hit, so Zuko wins because his bending is not limited by distance where it could also have an effect on him

Good I like this. Aang vs Zaheer Zaheer just because Zaheer is a master martial artist and adapted to Airbending so quickly plus he can fly. Toph vs Ghazan. We've seen him deal with metalbenders before and I'm sue he can hhandle whatever Toph could dish out. Katara vs Mingua. I have to go with Mingua because she is considerably faster as shown in LOK and is master at the octopus form even more so than katara. Also Katara has really bad h2h feats. The last one goes to P'li just because she's a combustion bender and no one bender can take them on. Now Round 2 has got to go to Aang. Toph would win just because we've never seen her completely pissed. Mingua I believe would edge out Katara because she is just to quick and he reaction is far better. And this I'd have to give to P'li still for the same reason

@kanen: Zaheer got destroyed by Tenzin, an airbending master. Aang's a master too, arguably better than Tenzin

Why is this even an argument. Zuko said himself that Team Zaheer are 4 of the most powerful benders in the world. Zuko is already out. Zaheer beats Aang in a airbending fight just because he can fly and make a tornado with his bare hands unlike Aang

@kanen: and Tenzin was holding off 3 of them at the same time. I could see them winning this, but they're not invincible.

Flight's not gonna win a fight with Aang for Zaheer. What do you mean "make a tornado with his hands?"

@arcus:

We don't know that for sure and that was before Zaheer could fly and his bending got more powerful as well. Plus Aang has never taken on another airbender so he has that against while Zaheer will be like I see how similar you and your son fight

@kanen: Zaheer's bending never got more powerful

So what if Zaheer thinks Aang and Tenzin fight similarly? Zaheer got destroyed in that fight with Tenzin because he just wasn't good enough

@arcus:

Yeah it did Tenzin even stated so himself. His blows were knocking back Korra left and right and he did multiple airblasts with ease. Zaheer still managed to evade some a lot of Tenzin's attacks and that was before he could fly. And people keep saying Aang is so quick but he couldn't even catch Ayzula without powers with the help of Toph and Sokka. From what I've seen Zaheer and Aangs speed are about equal

@kanen:

Tenzin was only talking about Zaheer's flight

Knocking a dying Korra and doing multiple airblasts isn't impressive

Zaheer didn't land a single hit on Tenzin, while Tenzin landed multiple hits on Zaheer. That's not an even fight

Azula had help from the Dai Li and plot in that case, plus Azula is just very quick and agile

@lex88:

You make a good argument but Toph has never fought a waterender before. The closest thing she came to was being defensless against Yakonne. While Ming has been able to cut a boulder in half with ease. Not to mention Mingua makes good use of whatever water she has and has taken out numerous earth benders. Also putting Toph in the catacombs is only handicapping her since their is no metal an a lot of water. Also just a side note we don't know how good Katara got at combat. From what I've seen it looks like she gave up fighting to heal and she never had the most impressive h2h feats either. Zaheer was a challenge before he was and airbender and the creators said he is a master martial artist who can adapt to any tool he is given. Korra's dad said he beat him but than lost to him badly when he got airbending and he has shown better combat feats than Katara. Not better bending feats but better combat feats. So Katara would just get destroyed by Zaheer

@kanen:

Actually she had a brief fight with Katara

Yakone's not even comparable to Ming Hua

@kanen Fisrtly, Azula and Toph struggling with a de-powered Azula was PIS. Secondly, Tenzin utterly dominated Zaheer. Zaheer's level of skill is not even remote to Tenzin's level. Just watch the scene where they are both scaling the wall. Zaheer used air bending to merely augment his jumps whereas Tenzin was using spiralling movements and was letting the air flow of his robes. He was the leaf, and was getting much more height on his jumps.

@gxrevolution96:

Doesn't matter because that was before Zaheer could fly something Tenzin was never able to do plus never able to enter the spiit world. and you saying Aang not catching Ayzula is pure piss is ridiculous. Aang is just not that fast and never was able to beat Ayzula. Hell even Katara came much closer than Aang ever did

@morgrim: Idk what you mean by usual airbending. Though Zaheer knew the Air Nomad's philosophy & techniques, he also incorporated w/e other MMA-style combat he'd previously known w/ his new set of skills. Although airbending is a defensive bending art (negative) their fighting style is mainly evasion...finding the path of least resistance. But since Zaheer clearly isn't a pacifist like the other airbenders, his fighting style was more attack-based & aggressive.

& also waiting & listening is the neutral jing that earthbending is based on. Waterbending is of both negative jing(defense & evasion) & positive jing(offense & overwhelming the opponent). While it employs defensive techniques that can be transformed into attacks and counters - defense into offense. Instead of simply deflecting an attack, waterbending's defensive maneuvers focus on control, achieved through turning an opponent's own strength against them, rather than directly harming the opponent.

Buuut....to be honest, I'll just have to concede on that one. It's just so close a call. All the either one needs is just a good hit or 2 on the other & the fight would be in their favor.

@kanen:

I know that only ACTUAL feats count on these threads, but saying NEVER or ALWAYS are just too strong words for hypothetical & theoretical situations such as these. There's been a 70+ year time gap. We saw Katara at age 14, being a prodigy in her own right, having mastered almost all subskills her bending art. She was on the Council for Yakone's trial, where she was 40-something. & now in Korra's lifetime she's somewhere between 85-90. WHO KNOWS WHAT COULD'VE GONE ON IN THAT TIMEGAP?

& no she didn't have impressive hand to hand, b/c she was a bender. Not many benders focus on that as much as they do their particular bending art. W/ the exception of Zuko Iroh, & Azula. But I'm sure their hand to hand skills had to do w/ getting all the formal training. You know, being highborn & all.

Oh! & Toph has also taken out many earthbenders of the royal earth palace's guards at once, multiple times throughout the ATLA: Book 2 - Ep. 18. Here's a brief video.

What you're forgetting is the range of Toph's seismic sense. Ming-Hua only has to twitch the slightest tendon & Toph will feel that vibration & can counter instantaneously. Not one person on this series has has been able to take down Toph, lol. Except Zuko, who's usually considered Team Aang's weakest bender, managed to ACCIDENTALLY burn her feet.

NOT having metal was never a handicap before. Why would it be now? It's a nice & impressive skill, but isn't imperative for her to get the win.

Red Lotus is too much overrated in the series..

The Legend of Korra bendin' feats and abilites far more worser than The Last Airbender's

Both Round goes to The Original Team Avatar.

They have best airbender we've ever seen also best earth and waterbender too.. Zuko is also one of greatest firebenders ..

Zaheer or any red lotus member cant hit or catch Aang 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 matchups..

Toph easily Beat Ghazan cus he his style is not about listening or senses... Only Airbenders and sensitive , calm bender has a chance against Toph..

And Katara ?? I dont like her but she is a hell of a waterbender..She has great feats against Azula ?? Azula far faster,stronger and smarter than Ming-Hua..

Zuko is blessed by Dragons he has rightfull inner energy for his element... He can easily take P'Li... She is slow and bad h2h combatant..

They even cant take Tenzin with ease ??

Avatar Aang> Airbender Aang>=Avatar Korra>Tenzin>=<Zaheer> Base Korra
Toph>= King Bumi>Kuvira> Bolin>= Ghazan
Katara>Amon>Unalaq=Tonraq>= Master Paku = Ming - Hua
Zuko>=Ozai> Tenzin>Mako>= P'li

Red Lotus has any chance on that.... They're look strong cuz Korra is the worst/weakest avatar. And Series have worst benders in all project (without Lin Bei Fong, Old Toph and Unalaq)

@utkanflash: lol you think Zuko's better than Ozai and Katara beats Amon

@arcus: Zuko is better than Ozai in the end.. Cuz he is blessed by Original Fire Bender Dragons.. And He has pure energy... Even when Zuko encounter against Ozai before he accepted by Team Avatar... He cant re-counter Ozai's Lightning...

And he was not met dragons yet when these happaned...

And Amon is not that great even Mako can counter his bendin' pressure

and Yes I think they're better than these men...

(Sorry bor bad english)

@utkanflash:

Zuko was never better than Ozai, the dragons didn't bless him with any special energy. They just taught him a better way to firebend. Zuko was roughly even with Azula, Ozai's better than both of them

Mako barely resisted with a bit of PIS, Amon could have ko'ed him with a thought

@utkanflash Did you seriously just say that Zuko was better than Ozai!? Ozai would slap that boy left right and centre. Why do you think Zuko waited until the eclipse to confront Ozai.

The only significant threat that poses for the Gaang is P' Li. But it's not something utterly new Team Aang hasn't dealt with before. Rijehu sums it up solidly, if they can get past her, the RL is going down steeply from there.

Signed,

L. D.

@gxrevolution96: That zuko is not met yet the Dragons but still easily counter Ozai's Lightning !
And In the end , Uncle Iroh said about Zuko's achivement about suprass Ozai !!

Ozai's power comes from anger and evil energy and this is the weakest firebender style..

Look at Iroh and Jeong Jeong.. Zuko suprass Ozai in the end.. Ozai is a coward who burn his own son's face when he was age 12 !!
Zuko and Azula better than Ozai..

And this is off-topic folks...drop it ok !!

This completely contradicts your third sentence because by your definition her firebending would be just as weak as her father's..

Zuko is not better than Ozai. Period. Pre-Dragons or Post Dragons. It was clear in the finale that Ozai was far superior to both Azula and Zuko. It had been established that the only fire bender that could match Ozai was Iroh.

Iroh never said that Zuko suppressed Ozai.

You do realise that training with the dragons does not magically make you the best fire bender in the world. Both Joeng Jeong and Azula were fire bending prodigies, yet neither of them trained with the dragons.

Even after Ozai lost his bending, Zuko was still afraid of him

Ozai>>>Zuko & Azula. Fact

@gxrevolution96: @juiceboks:

still want to do off topic ha ?

Ok well

you're right she is weak too... We see this in final showdown of Azula...

But even Ozai admit this.. Azula more skilled bender than Ozai.. She has more potential... Ok she is sick but she is far skilled than Ozai.. But yeah u right she is not better than him ı guess .. I mean if we look to total set.. Ozai> Azula

But Zuko with Ozai's experience he'll be far better than him.. And I think Ozasi afraid of Zuko too..

For Last Time.. Original Team Avatar win both round with ease gents..Thanks for conversaion..

@utkanflash:

But Zuko doesn't have Ozai's experience...we have no way of judging how good he would be at Ozai's age. Teenage Zuko is not as good as Ozai

Team Avatar

Potential means squat. It has to be fulfilled first. Teenage Zuko was not as good as Ozai, neither was Azula. Period

Oh Come on, there's definitely NO WAY that Ghazan will be able to defeat Toph.. with Toph just being able to sense her opponent's movement.. even before Ghazan can make his step, Toph will knock Ghazan down.. You surely are underestimating Toph's connection to Earth element.. LOL

Katara vs Ming-Hua.. seriously? with Katara's control over the Water element.. even the water that Ming-Hua is using as her tentacles, Katara might be able to use them against Ming-Hua herself.. Those who are saying that RL is better that Team Aang will need to rewatch ATLA.. You're blinding yourselves with Zaheer's flight ability.. Lavabending.. and those tentacles.. oh and with that combustion woman.. ahahahahaa XD

The thing is.. in LOK, they are using element bending as a weapon, throwing bunch of skills to their opponents.. unlike in ATLA, bending is like it's already part of their own body.. and there's a big difference between the two! ~ (y)

@yamyu23: Ming Hua literally uses water as part of her body...

bump

R1:

• Aang stomps Zaheer
• Katara beats Ming Hua very high dif.
• P'Li beats Zuko mid-high dif.
• Toph beats Ghazan low-mid dif.

Team Avatar solidly. Zuko isn't needed.

R2: Aang solos 2 of them. Katara, Zuko and Toph destroy the other 2.

Aang stomps Zaheer.

Katara defeats Ming high dif.

P'li beats Zuko mid dif 9/10.

Toph beats Ghazan extreme dif.

On the other hand, Ming and Zaheer would ruin Toph, P'li would give Katara hell and maybe take a majority depending on location and Ghazan can take Zuko extreme dif. Aang would beat all 4, maybe losing to P'li with morals. It's very dependent on matchups but I'm inclined to go with the RL for round 1 due to Aang holding back, Tophs obvious weakness that can be exploited super hard by this team and P'li being MVP.

In round 2 is a different story. Morals off Aang with all 4 elements can take 2 of them. Morals off Katara is a monster and can take any of them 1v1 and Toph + Zuko stomp the other one.

@lex88: Katara would body Zaheer almost as hard as Tenzin did unless he has flight.

Round 1:

Zuko vs P'Li - seriously, the way that she took down his dragon was great, and while I'd put TLOK Zuko as below end of series A:TLAB and comic Zuko (due to the fact that Zuko had pretty much peaked at the end of the show and just needed to turn into a young adult in his 20s from there on out to get any stronger, but after his 40s, he would inevitably start getting weaker, and now that he's in his 90s, he's inevitably weaker than he was at the end of A:TLAB or in the comics), P'Li is way too much for Zuko to handle on his own, even with his swords, left eye healed, and willingness to kill with the same ferocity that P'Li would be fighting.

Aang versus Zaheer - this is a laughable curbstomp in Aang's favor. Zaheer's not even a match for him.

Katara versus Ming Hua - everything that Ming Hua can do, Katara can do better. Some will say that Ming Hua is agile and can make water arms and freeze things... however, Katara is also agile and can also make water arms and freeze things. Ming Hua is a very powerful waterbender, but there is another very powerful waterbender from the Southern Water Tribe. She is the same southern waterbender who defeated Azula. Her name is Katara. And she will win this fight.

Toph versus Ghazan - It'll be close because Ghazan might be able to form lava right under Toph's feet, but otherwise, Toph will detect, sense, and stop his every move, no matter where he is, and she'll be able to see lava, too. It's close, but Toph 6/10.

Then, the three of them will gang up on and beat P'Li. Also, if Sokka's in this fight, this his boomerang will be able to handle P'Li, too lmao. People may forget this, but Team Avatar with just 12-year-old Aang with only 3 elements (and only one of them really mastered), 16-year-old Zuko fighting passively and less aggressively without trying to kill Combustion Man and without his swords and before his dragon training and discovery of the Dancing Dragon, 14-year-old Katara, and 15-year-old Sokka were able to beat Combustion Man, being more than a match for him. Remember that Toph wasn't even in this fight because her feet were burnt and she was being carried around. Therefore, P'Li, whose shots are weaker, will not be a challenge for them, especially if Toph is awake in this fight, too. Toph wasn't even in that fight (in fact, she was a liability), and they still won.

Round 2:

Lmao this is just sad, because Aang might be able to solo. Okay, no he won't, but seriously, giving Aang all four elements makes him way too much for Zaheer and Ming Hua to handle, that's for sure. He'll lose to Ghazan in earthbending, but he'll kick Zaheer's and Ming Hua's asses on his own.

Meanwhile, Zuko and Sokka will together beat P'Li while Toph handles Ghazan, and Katara will be there to add the extra layer of whoopass.

Also, Katara will help freeze P'Li's head so that the ugly combustion bender cannot move. Zuko cannot beat her alone, but if you give him just Sokka, then he can hold her off long enough before Sokka knocks P'Li right in her ugly third eye.

And Katara being there makes this fight even easier.

And Zaheer will never be a match for Aang, Korra, Tenzin, Jinora, or any other airbender. Yes, he had the upper hand on Korra, but that was because every time that they fought, Korra either had a tranquilizer in her body, was chained up, or had poison - or a disgusting combination of all these scenarios. Aang beats Zaheer like a chump. Ming Hua will lose to Aang as well and, if she doesn't, then Katara will bend her water arms off and slap her silly until she can't ever think again.

Also, I think that @vengefulshot said it perfectly. I agree 100% in unison with him/her and don't have anything to add to his/her comment.

Lava Benders aren't invincible to Earth benders

Aang > Zaheer

Katara > Ming Hua

Toph > Ghazan

Zuko < P'li

Team Aang wins. If you add Sokka too they can defeat P'li maybe.

Team Avatar - Aang is the MVP, and Zaheer is a wek link, even though Ghazan take most of their opponents. It's a close fight though, especially with the "small" ammount of water Katara has here.