Team Aang vs The Red Lotus

Dude, That doesn't make Katara any less powerful though. Even if those were the numbers exactly, Katara in the beginning of season 3 can already bend with 1/3 the power Korra's Avatar level and Korra' hasn't moved a single ship without it. Ming Hua has no feats on par with that.

@arcus: Heck no LOL! I'm just saying that Aang has enough raw power without the resources Roku had, to something that Roku didn't, even if it were on a smaller scale. That is still equivalent given the situation, but that doesn't make him more powerful than Roku.

Oh I agree it doesn't make Katara less powerful or anything, just saying that doesn't mean she's on the level of the Avatar state

Ok, good, haha I think I understand

@rijehu: Bending has always been as big as it's needed to be, 99% of the time the bending will all be roughly the same size allowing one bender to counter another with the vast majority of big bending moments being outside of combat.

This was done without the avatar state and it's huge

Man guys, I've really enjoyed reading through this discussion, so much so that I had to make an account here so that I could weigh in.

I'm new to this so please forgive my silly mistakes.

Aang vs Zaheer

I give this to Aang in both round 1 and round 2, for similar reasons as others have said (ie. Tenzin was beating Zaheer on his own pretty decisively before the rest of the RL got involved, and Aang > Tenzin). Zaheer would put up a pretty good fight, but ultimately loses.

Katara vs Ming Hua

I think this would probably be the closest of all the match ups. Katara has greater versatility in what she's been shown to be capable of doing with her bending (ie. using her own sweat, drawing water right out of the air, plant-bending, blood-bending etc.), and her range is much better. Ming Hua has consistently been shown to need to get fairly close to her opponents before she can attack. However it is true that Ming Hua's agility is far better than Katara's, so she can probably dodge and evade a lot of Katara's attacks while using her water arms to get close enough to Katara and potentially take her out. Unless Katara is able to take control of the water that Ming Hua uses as her arms, and I'm not sure there's any evidence that she could, I think this fight could go either way. I'm calling it a stalemate.

Toph vs Ghazan

Again, I think this would be a close one, but I think the win probably goes to Ghazan. The point of Toph being able to sense lava and the incredible accuracy and speed of her earthsense is a good one, and I think it is the main reason this match would still be close. However, all Ghazan needs to do is burn Toph's feet, and she's out. Given how quickly he's been shown to turn the ground into magma, I think he'd force Toph to spend most of the battle evading his attacks - and I don't think Toph has the agility to keep that up for very long, at least not against an opponent like Ghazan who is probably faster and much more agile than her. Going through Toph's battle scenes, she tends not to jump or run around very much. Admittedly, this might be because she never has to, she's easily able to steamroll over most of her opponents. But I think it is telling that in most cases she blocks attacks with an earth wall rather than getting out of the way. She'd have trouble using that strategy against Ghazan, because he can completely liquify earth walls. He does this easily to all of Bolin's attempts to block him, and even does a freaking backflip over one said wall seconds after turning it molten (evidence of his agility). Now, Toph is a far better earthbender than Bolin, but she's still at a significant disadvantage here. And I say this with much love for Toph. Unless she gets access to some metal (unlikely if the battle is in the Crystal Catacombs) she doesn't have many options for taking him out - he's capable of turning any earth thrown at him into magma and sending it straight back at her. I'm inclined to believe Ghazan's control over earth is pretty damn phenomenal given he can speed up its molecular state from solid rock to liquid magma, so even if Toph trapped him in the ground I think he'd have no trouble bending himself back out again. So I give this one to Ghazan.

Zuko vs P'Li

I pretty much agree that, 1 on 1, Zuko can't beat P'Li. However, I have to respectfully disagree with those that think he'd get curb-stomped by her. Zuko is tougher than many people give him credit for. He does not go down easily.

I think the best example of this is during the Seige of the North episodes at the end of season one. Zuko, at this point, has narrowly survived an assassination attempt where his ship was blown up while he was still inside. He is clearly still injured from that incident, as evidenced by all the gashes and bruises on his face (and those are just the ones he can see). Yet despite this, he swims through freezing arctic water, climbs up galciers, and fights Katara - who by this time is well on her way to becoming a full fledged master waterbender - in her own element during a nearly full moon. And he holds his own despite his injuries and suffering from cold exposure (which would be considerable given that they're in the NORTH POLE and he just swam through FREEZING WATER). Granted, he does have to wait until the sun comes up and she loses her full moon edge before he can beat her, but the fact that he is still standing long enough to take advantage of this is impressive in and of itself. Katara is only able take him down later during the full moon, after he has tired himself out running through an ARCTIC BLIZZARD carrying an unconscious twelve year old on his back.

I agree that P'Li's feats at the North Pole are impressive, but I think Zuko's feats at the north pole are at least equally impressive.

Now, I know that just because he was able to survive all this punishment at the north pole doesn't necessarily mean he'd be able to withstand P'Li's combustion attacks. I brought this point up first as an example for how much endurance Zuko has - he won't tire out easily. This is an important point for later.

However, we know he can withstand P'Li's combustion attacks because he was able to withstand Combustion man's attack.

I respectfully have to disagree. It's true that at the beginning of the fight Combustion man easily blocked Zuko's firebending and pushed him aside, and when he did turn his full attention to Zuko he knocked him off the ledge and out of the fight. For these reasons I agree that Combustion man was able to counter everything that Zuko threw at him, and P'Li could probably do the same.

However, Combustion man did NOT destroy Zuko. You're overlooking the fact that he fired a combustion shot at Zuko POINT BLANK RANGE, and not only did Zuko block and survive it, he was completely unscathed at the end of the fight. The only reason that shot took him out of the fight is because the concussive force of blast pushed him off the narrow ledge they were standing on. But it didn't even knock him off balance. He was still on his feet prior to going off the side, and given how he was able to keep his balance when the force of Ozai's lightning pushed him back in an earlier scene, I am pretty sure that had there been more space, all Combustion Man's shot would have done was push Zuko back several feet. He'd still be standing, and he'd be completely unharmed. This from a combustion blast at POINT BLANK RANGE (I don't think this point can be emphasized enough). If Zuko can withstand a combustion blast at point blank range, he can likely withstand any combustion blast thrown at him (provided the terrain is not to his disadvantage, such as being thrown off a cliff or into a rock wall).

You can see it in the video here, 0:56 seconds in.

And you can also see at the end when he's climbing up that he's completely uninjured.

(On an unrelated note, I just noticed that his scar is on the wrong side throughout this whole scene LOL)

I'm not going to argue whether Combustion Man > P'Li or vice versa. For the purpose of this argument I'll say they're at least equal in terms of the power of their blasts. Therefore, if Zuko can withstand Combustion Man, he can withstand P'Li. Not to mention, Zuko has been shown to be pretty fast and agile, I think he's also capable of dodging some of P'Li's attacks. Between blocking and dodging and the fact that he has very high endurance (so he can keep it up for quite a while) I don't think he'll be that easy for her to take out.

I still agree that he'd most likely lose since as you said P'Li can probably counter any of his firebending attacks. So I think P'Li will win, but Zuko certainly won't make it easy for her.

Now, if we include Sokka in this match-up (seriously, Sokka needs more love), and make it Sokka & Zuko vs P'Li, I say Sokka and Zuko have a good chance at winning. All Zuko needs to do is keep P'Li occupied while Sokka gets in position to hit her third eye with his boomerang. Sokka already did this with Combustion Man. You keep saying that Combustion Man > the whole Gaang, but the fact is that one of Sokka's feats is DESTROYING Combustion Man (seriously, watch that video - CM is obliterated). So it's reasonable he can do it again with P'Li, provided he has someone else to distract her (which, as discussed, Zuko is quite capable of doing). Also, speaking of group synergy, Sokka and Zuko displayed some pretty amazing teamwork in the Boiling Rock episodes - keep in mind that up until two episodes earlier they were mortal enemies and at the beginning of the BR two-parter they were still extremely awkward around one another. To go from that to fighting as a seamless unit against Azula on the gondola is pretty impressive and shows just how well they can work together. I'm not saying the two of them would defeat P'Li easily, but I think they are certainly capable of it.

Yeah, that's my two cents. I didn't mean for it to blow up into such a long post, lol, sorry! I am having too much fun with this discussion.

@maomei: Good points.

Aang beats Zaheer

Katara beats Ming-Hua

Ghazan beats Toph

Zuko beats P-Li.

Zaheer takes the air out of their lounges, enough said

And for those who insist that toph is better than ghazan, I tell you the dame thing I said in the tpoh vs ghazan thread

She is not

How can you say that toph has better skill than one of the four criminals who could take down any bender? Lava bending is a feat faaaaaaaaarrrr greater and for extension a feat of skill faaaaaarrr superior than toph's metal and earthnending. Half earthbenders can metalbend, only ghazan can lavabend, how can you say that just because it is still earth she can bend lava? She and no other bender has ever done that, execpt for the AVATARs in avatar state. If that was the case anyone could lavabend, but no, is not, and she has never shown anything that can suggest she could lavavbend.

The ssand trick is not a proof that she is better, first of all wet sand should be easier to bend than dry sand since ii is harder and second of all is not a real argument, just because she made an exact replica of the city, it doesn't means she's better, it means she has more precision with sand during a non-fighting moment, so I don't buy it, besides any earthbender can sandbend

Not only that, anything she throws at him he can use it, just like bolin said in the Terror Within (I think) "is like giving him ammo" so it doesn't matter if she has instant reaction time, unless she uses metal to fight back, she is giving him the edge. Besides he can simply turn into lava the ground arround him just like he did on the episode or make a path of lava that reaches her feet, just like he did in Long Live the Queen

And taking down the wall of ba sing se is waaaaaaaay better feat of skill and power than anything she's shown so far, sure it wasn't all of the wall but it was still a large portion and more than she has done

Ghazan is a better earth bender by what little we've seen, the guy was locked down for 13 years because of his skill, that's more of what we can say from toph

and don't ell me that bolin Is not a powerful so his fight with ghazan is not valid and all that crap, the power of the bender is irrelevant, earth is earth and if she attacks with it he is gonna fire it back as lava, period.

And for thos who asked if p'li can use normal firebending

MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could she master combustion bending without mastering the firebending? It's ilogocal, like saying azula is the best lightning bender but she can't generate fire, or that amon was ther best bloodbender but he didn't have water bender.

And the metal bending thing in the comics is not the same, they still control the earrth within the metal

Wow Zuko gets no love on this thread , lol . But Aang is better than Korra , Katara was crazy powerful , Toph greatly outclassed Boling (I think is his name) & Zuko is no pushover , especially towards the end of the series . I see team Aang taking this .

So much wrong with this. Ghazan has earth all around anyway, it doesn't make a difference if she attacks him or not. Toph is not Bolin.

Why didn't Zaheer take the air out of Tenzin's lungs? Also, he's never even shown the ability to pull that off in combat

I can't believe you tried to use being put in prison as a feat to make Ghazan better than Toph

This battle is premature.

Why didn't zaheer take the air out of tenzin's lungs? because he cant replicate that feat in an actual battle

One of the 4 people that can take out any bender? That is merely hyperbole to hype them up. Zaheer was getting his butt kicked by tenzin and tenzin is in no way on the same level as aang.

Wow, this fight was rather embarrassing. And inconsistent. But Zaheer seems to have surpassed Tenzin now and achieved true airbending mastery inside out.

So, I think that for Round 1:

Zaheer> Aang.

Toph> Ghazan (how the hell did he get himself his ass handed by Mako and Bolin????)

Katara> Ming Hua (same thing that I said for Ghazan)

P'Li> Zuko (seriously, she had the two best earthbenders and a whole squad of metalbenders at bay for a long while.)

So, Round 1's a tie or very close.

Round 2:

Aang freaking solos lmfao the Red Lotus was so embarrassing.

@raimundopedrosa: Agreed, enter the void wasn't bad i'd say P'li's death was actually consistent with an attack from the back by metal, but the rest... yeah XD

after watching the last two episodes team avatar for sure.

@raimundopedrosa: not quite sure that flight would give Zaheer the win vs Aang. Definitely makes it a closer match but ultimately wont be enough IMO :)

Honestly the final fight between Mako and Bolin and Ghazan and Ming wasn't bad. Ming was dispatched in a way that made perfect sense(honestly it's stupid that Mako DIDN'T think of using lightning against a woman with water for arms). And despite Bolin discovering lavabending he was still outmatched. It took the two brothers double-teaming him for Ghazan to try that desperation move.

I thought it was a great fight. I guess some people would be mad that Mako and Bolin won, but I don't see it as a low showing for the Red Lotus. I just see it as Mako and Bolin showing how much they've improved and getting a well deserved good showing

Team Avatar actually stomps hard.

Aang is more skilled and more powerful than Zaheer. And can essentially speed blitz as weird as it sounds.

Toph wrecks Gahzan before he can react

Katara is far more skilled than any water bender in the series based on showcases.

P'li is useless in close or mid range. Zuko stomps.

@deathhero61: Zuko does not stomp P'li lol he's gonna lose. Everyone else on team avatar wins though

@deathhero61: How is P'li useless? She can blow things up just as well up close as she can from a distance

@arcus: @martinceld: P'li is very limited in her bending thats why she loses.(how the hell would she use her powers in close or mid-range without hurting herself? She has on occasion been misdirected before.) Zuko has fire and lightning bending on his side. Both far more efficient and potentially more powerful bending techniques.

@deathhero61: Zuko can only redirect lightning

P'li also has regular firebending

@arcus: I been watching the series as well and i have yet to see her utilization of regular fire bending.

@deathhero61: she blocked the dragon's blast, and she used it to attack Mako and Bolin when the Red Lotus tried to kidnap Korra from the Metal Clan

@arcus: What episode were these? And even if they did happen those feats alone are not enough to compare to zuko.

@deathhero61: Sozin's comet buff, what a fair comparison.....

@martinceld: Pfft

He has several impressive showcases of regular firebending.

And even went up against katara who was amped by the full moon at the time.

If other benders from korra's team can take her, i don't see why zuko one of the more skilled combatants of the showcased fire benders in the avatar universe couldn't.

@deathhero61: those are the kinds of feats you show not sozin comet amped ones duh. Well only the Azula fight was worth showing tbh the rest were nothing great. His fight with katara in season 1, they were both relatively weak then so not much glory in beating her, decent though. Thing is, combustion man pretty handily dealt with the entire team avatar by himself and though he never got to finish the job, they could hardly do much to him either. Also he kinda stomped zuko in their very brief exchange in the air temple. P'li can bend her mind blasts so even if its a smaller area zuko will be vulnerable to it. Not saying she stomps like some people are implying but she can probably take a majority. peace out

@martinceld: Combustion man is on a different level from P"li entirely, thats the funny thing. He is so much more powerful. Zuko takes this because he is far more agile, just as agile as the earth benders who killed her. Is far better in close range combat, and Pli cannot use her ability in close or mid range or risk hurting or killing herself. Her abilities are limited. Zuko's are not. He takes the majority.

1. aang both rounds
2. katara both rounds
3. toph both rounds
4. zuko both rounds.

@deathhero61: I'm not sure why you're thinking P'li is so weak, it took two master earth and metal benders to beat her, Zuko can't do what Suyin did

@arcus: She lacks the versatility to take on zuko. Is not agile enough to take him on or fast enough. And you keep on ignoring that in close range which zuko happens to love using, she won't be using her explosions because in close range she would be effected as well. She loses this because she is not physically capable of taking on opponents in close or mid range, thats why whenever she is showcased fighting we see her backed up by her teammates or is somewhere at long range. At close range cannot do much. You keep on purposely ignoring this. Lin and Soo's earth bending skills had nothing to do with the battle, Lin was avoiding her with agility alone and while p'li was distracted soo killed her. Simple as that.

Ex:Who would win, Spiderman or Cyclops? spiderman's rapid fire web shots are weak sauce in comparison to cyclop's eye blasts. But which is more efficient? The one who can easily dodge attacks while tagging an opponent from range? or the one who barely can move in comparison and shoot an easily predicted trajectory of an energy projectile?

@deathhero61: Spider-Man is enhanced well beyond human levels or anyone in Avatar, so that's not a good comparison

P'li was taking on Lin, Su, and a bunch of metal clan guards, and she was doing fine close range. Lin drew her fire to allow an opening for Su, but Zuko can't do that by himself.

@arcus: Im pretty sure you got the point regardless.

P'li and all the earthbenders were on a large flat piece of rock. They all got blasted off before they can even get close to her. So no. Zuko doesn't need to draw her fire, zuko simply needs to use his superior agility and close the distance, while pressuring her with rapid fire firebending.

@deathhero61: P'li blocked a dragon's blast like nothing, she can deal with Zuko's blasts

If it was so easy to just "close the gap," then why didn't Suyin and Lin do it?

@arcus: Lin actually did.
And was actually capable of doing so, the problem was the capability of her explosions radius when she strains herself. And there is at least a second delay before she fires off a shot. Lin was capable of closing the distance but simply drew fire like you said, because there was no way with her bending that she could have took her down permanently. In fact im surprised lin didn't use her metal bending whips to restrain her or knock her off balance.

P'li blocked a dragon's blast like nothing, she can deal with Zuko's blasts

She hasn't done this consistently. And In character she relies on her combustion blasts.

@deathhero61: Lin avoided P'li's blasts, but she didn't close the gap and take P'li down. What do you mean by her explosion radius when she strains herself?

What do you mean she doesn't block fire blasts consistently? She's only fought a fire bender twice, once vs the dragon and once vs Mako. So yeah she doesn't do it consistently because she's not usually fighting fire benders

@arcus: She fought against mako yet didn't use regular fire bending. Regular fire bending would have been heavily efficient in countering his attacks.

@deathhero61: Yes she did, at the very beginning before the guards noticed.

@deathhero61: Can can use conventional fire bending. She has done so on numerous occasions.

@gxrevolution96 said:

@deathhero61: Can can use conventional fire bending. She has done so on numerous occasions.

Still nothing in comparison to zuko's standards. And her conventional fire bending was incredibly useful against the earthbenders, oh wait a second.

@deathhero61: Still nothing in comparison to zuko's standards. And her conventional fire bending was incredibly useful against the earthbenders, oh wait a second.

Uh, she completely nullified the the flames from Zuko's dragon without breaking as much as sweat. I think that speaks for fire bending prowess, considering that Zuko was terrified when he faced Ran and Shaw

@deathhero61: She didn't use conventional fire bending against the metal benders because Combustion was more effective

@arcus I agree! For instance, why use a pistol, when you have a RPG that can fire repetitive shots in quick succession, without running out of amno. Not to mention, you can direct your shots, maximising your chances of hitting your target. Its more effective as its more destructive and your enemy can't get within a few metres of you without getting blown into oblivion. If had P'li's abilities, I would completely abandon conventional fire bending, except for when the situation called for it e.g being attack by a fire breathing dragon

@gxrevolution96: that dragon had nothing on the ones zuko and aang faced lol

@martinceld: Granted, it was still a power Dragon going by the intensity of the flames

Aangs team...they all are powerhouses.

Fire bending would have been faster on the draw and far more efficient for taking out long range earth bending attacks. Combustion would have been better when there was an attack that was too powerful for fire bending to handle. Fire has a far larger AoE than combustion and can be used in the most tangible ways.

Look at zuko's fight with aang closely and look at azula's fight with aang. Notice how the fire bending is being utilized. Its far more tangible and versatile than simply blowing stuff up. In character its simple, she doesn't feel the need to use conventional fire bending. And thats whats going to make it harder to counter zuko's attacks since its a habit for her to use only her combustion abilities. And like i said Zuko is agile enough to get close and end her.

May i ask how thats relevant? Pretty sure aang can do the same exact thing p'li did by a thousand considering his feats yet he was shitting his pants when he saw the dragons as well.

I see wrong. Wrong everywhere. First off. The combustion shot has a second or two time delay. While fire bending can be shot off like a machine gun. With fire bending it is not capable of running out of ammo. No bending is capable of that,except water.(and for some reason earth on occasion.) You can direct your shots for fire bending as well. It depends on how you use it really, not only that you don't have to take time calculating trajectory when you can launch large AoE techniques or lightning strikes at your opponent.

And......

Its more effective as its more destructive and your enemy can't get within a few metres of you without getting blown into oblivion.

Hilarious considering how an explosion can easily spread a few meters. Heck a grenade can span that distance. Plus if someone is in close combat with p'li she would have no choice but to rely on regular fire bending or close combat both areas we haven't seen much from her. Areas we have seen from zuko allot tho. The reason i say she would have to rely on those? Because she would risk blowing herself up. Why do you think in ultimatum she was on an air ship? For decoration? Because she was too lazy to come help her friends at a closer range? No. Its because she can stay at a farther range and not only take more time on concentrating and calculating trajectory but also so she doesn't blow herself up. I am absolutely baffled on how many p'li fanboys cannot get that through their thick skulls.

I can't think of any situations P'li has been in where regular firebending would have been much more useful than combustion. She countered Mako's and Druk's (the dragon) attacks just fine

Yeah, regular fire might be faster, but it's not as powerful. Air is also available everywhere and won't run out of ammo (that point was completely irrelevant anyway). Actually, none of this makes a difference at all. The delay was the only sensible point you raised, and it's not even that big a deal

??? Do you actually no what you're talking about? She managed fine when fighting in close quarters with the rest of the Red Lotus vs the Metal Clan, why do you assume she'd be useless in close quarters? She wasn't on the airship in ultimatum to keep from blowing herself up, where'd you get that idea? She was there to be able to see the entire temple and contain the airbenders.

Yes, she died when Su surrounded her head in metal. Zuko can't do that, and it doesn't mean she'd blow herself up in close quarters. There's also the problem of getting to close quarters with her, no one has been able to do that so far.

I can see Zuko avoiding her explosions and surviving, but he's not beating her alone

So are the Red Lotus.

Not saying they win, but this isn't an argument.