Fisto alone could put up a fight. Together they win handily
You know, even TPM Maul hold his own against stronger opponents such as Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan and Black Sun. TCW Maul much more stronger than TPM. Just saying.
@erkan12: As someone who has read all of Maul's important EU appearances - barring two short stories, and one novel, which I'm halfway through - I can confidently say Maul is not winning this fight. While I believe Maul would beat any of these guys decisively in a 1v1, he is not beating all of them in a 3v1.
They have the necessary accolades and showings to suggest they are all very competent swordsmen, some with their own decent TK showings as well. I personally believe it would require a large amount of reaching to suggest Maul could win this fight. He would certainly put up a tremendous effort, possibly killing one of them, and would unleash the full extent of his force abilities, but the fact is, when you take three competent swordsmen such as these three, even someone as skilled, powerful and determined as Maul will meet his match. And there's nothing wrong with that.. a 3v1 encounter is generally a very unfair situation to put someone in.
Maul contending with Qui Gon and Obi Wan, and Bruu Jun-Fan and Ko Solok, simultaneously, in those two fights, as well as killing over 36 swarming Black Sun enforcers coming from all directions, are very impressive showings that prove Maul has no problem contending with, reacting to and defeating multiple opponents. However, this particular match up against three very competent and established swordsmen is something Maul (and very few others, for that matter), has not shown the ability of winning.
I know there are some users you won't take this kind of conclusion from - but take it from me, one of the biggest Maul fans on the site. He doesn't really stand a fighting chance here.
@erkan12: As someone who has read all of Maul's important EU appearances - barring two short stories, and one novel, which I'm halfway through - I can confidently say Maul is not winning this fight. While I believe Maul would beat any of these guys decisively in a 1v1, he is not beating all of them in a 3v1.
They have the necessary accolades and showings to suggest they are all very competent swordsmen, some with their own decent TK showings as well. I personally believe it would require a large amount of reaching to suggest Maul could win this fight. He would certainly put up a tremendous effort, possibly killing one of them, and would unleash the full extent of his force abilities, but the fact is, when you take three competent swordsmen such as these three, even someone as skilled, powerful and determined as Maul will meet his match. And there's nothing wrong with that.. a 3v1 encounter is generally a very unfair situation to put someone in.
Maul contending with Qui Gon and Obi Wan, and Bruu Jun-Fan and Ko Solok, simultaneously, in those two fights, as well as killing over 36 swarming Black Sun enforcers coming from all directions, are very impressive showings that prove Maul has no problem contending with, reacting to and defeating multiple opponents. However, this particular match up against three very competent and established swordsmen is something Maul (and very few others, for that matter), has not shown the ability of winning.
I know there are some users you won't take this kind of conclusion from - but take it from me, one of the biggest Maul fans on the site. He doesn't really stand a fighting chance here.
Team wins. Fisto can hold him and adding Tiin with Kolar is a death factor. I think it would go like this. Two Jedi attacks him and he holds them for a while. Third Jedi is waiting for the good moments and every time he gets one tries to hit Maul. I think that he wouldnt even kill any of them.
While Maul could defeat any of them individually (in fact, I don't see what's stopping him from stomping Kolar with the Force like he did to Kenobi), he is not beating all three at once. All are among the best in the Order as per Mace Windu, Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi, (and objective sources stated that Kolar was one of the most skilled beings produced by the entire order). Saesee Tiin can present challenges to Maul in all areas, and adding Kolar, who was skilled enough to stomp Quinlan Vos in one page, and Kit Fisto, who is faster than anybody here and could casually outfight a pair of Magnaguards in a trilogy where three of them were a challenge to Kenobi is just too much.
Regarding Tiin being inferior to Savage, I just disagree. Savage is stronger and equally fast, but Tiin is more skilled, between sparring evenly with Windu and being listed as one of the best in the Order:
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"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"
Source: Revenge of the Sith
With respects to power, Tiin has been noted as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, an accolade Mace Windu never received (Mace Windu has mostly received accolades for skill), and has thrown a droid four kilometers when Windu only threw one less than three (to be fair, it did hit an oncoming squadron, but then, precision matters little in a close-range fight like this, so power would be the way to go):
Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #114
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Saesee Tiin could match or even defeat Savage individually.
TCW Maul could defeat any of them individually, but not them all at once. Team, 10/10.
Qui-Gon Jinn + Obi-Wan Kenobi is are not superior to the three of them. You can take that from a guy who made respect threads for both Jinn and Kenobi.
And Qui-Gon never stalemated Windu, in case it's being brought up. There's no source for that, still, and I still can't find it in the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, which is supposed to be where it's from.
And for the record, only telekinetics were improved on TCW Maul's part. TPM Maul still rivals him in strength, speed, endurance, pain tolerance, regeneration, combat skill, etc. I'm sure that even @i_like_swords would agree.
In skill, TPM Maul has beaten Anoon Bondara, beaten Darsha Assant, beaten an amped TPM Kenobi, driven off Qui-Gon while injured, assumed the advantage while fighting both Qui-Gon and Kenobi at once, beaten Komari Vosa while injured, was listed as one of the most skilled bladesmen in Sith history, etc; TCW Maul has fought evenly with TCW Obi-Wan, rapidly dominated Savage, defeated Bruu Jun-Fan and Ko-Solok, assumed the advantage against Judd, etc. - they are even here.
In terms of strength, TPM Maul has punched through wampas into the heart and then crushing said heart, while injured, kicked into torsos, shattered spines with a single strike, struck through durasteel, etc; TCW Maul has thrown a spear over colossal distances, wrecked Savage, scored a number of blows on the likes of Pre Vizsla and TCW Kenobi, and so on. There's really no disparity here, either.
With regards to speed, TPM Maul can kill multiple beings in an eyelash, was faster than Qui-Gon (who can move imperceptibly fast, form shields out of his blade and disarm people within the span of breath), twisted around a volley of blaster bolts, formed multiple fans out of his blade, formed webs out of his blade, moved fast enough such that recording equipment would have to be slowed to perceive him, etc; TCW Maul, to my knowledge, has not received as many speed feats and I might even argue could be slower than TPM Maul due to stylistic differences, but excluding that, they should still be roughly even, considering TCW Maul's performance against relatively quick opponents like Kenobi.
With respects to durability and endurance, both have repeatedly fought after sustaining wounds, TCW Maul was somewhat unaffected by a lightsaber being ignited through his leg (obviously, it was cybernetic), while TPM Maul has withstood roasting temperatures, survived tremendous falls, rose quickly after being bowled over by repulsors, etc. They are, again, equal.
So honestly, I don't see how TCW Maul is vastly above TPM Maul in physicality. All their physical traits remain the same.
For Kolar being one of the most skilled swordsmen the Order has ever produced by an objective source and being implied to be a peer of Mace Windu:
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar—both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced—here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
For Fisto being faster than anybody here:
To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
For Fisto casually outfighting a pair of Magnaguards:
To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs…
The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
For three of these Magnaguards being assessed to be beyond Kenobi's ability to defeat, and Kenobi barely holding them at bay:
The remaining three pressed the attack, but more cautiously; their weapons were longer than his, and they struck from beyond the reach of his blade. He gave way before them, his defensive velocities barely keeping their crackling discharge blades at bay.
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near light-speed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.
@shootingnova: Maul was stated as being more powerful since TPM and since Lotho Minor, which is vague in itself. However, I do think it was in regards to his knowledge of the dark side and overall wisdom.
What specifically made him more powerful? The guy was sitting for 10 years with a shattered mind, and his only social interactions were with the small creatures he was eating raw, and a snake. He was the living embodiment of pure hatred. He hated where he was living, what he was eating. He hated his legs. Everything. The only thing keeping him alive was his hatred. He had never before been this immersed into the dark side of the Force.
And as a result of this, it makes sense that he had gone onto become such a powerful telekinetic, as well as become a more patient, cold and calculating being who even began practicing Dun Moch, which is something he previously resented entirely. Maul became a true Sith Lord and was no longer merely an assassin when he stepped out of Lotho Minor. He fully embraced the dark side of the force and learned the secrets Sidious had actively kept from him during training.
In short, yes I agree. LOL. Just wanted to provide my insight on this rather vague statement.
@shootingnova: Awesome feat-drop, got all the important stuff. And I agree.
Maul has moved faster than people can blink/see/react ect ect in Shadow Conspiracy, but his speed isnt fully expounded on in his TCW form. But he should still retain his former feats. He just has very few showings during TCW so far. He's done stuff like create huge afterimages in the comics and probably a few other speed-related things but it is largely unexplored. Maybe in SoD he'll get some more up to date combat showings.
@shootingnova: Although I must note - Darsha was amped tremendously during her fight with Maul. She had some CIS oneness with the force-type BS which was basically there to make her at least a challenge, and Maul won because he was more refined. I'll find the quote for you.
She embraced the Force. There is no emotion; there is peace. Her fear evaporated and was replaced by quietude. She was still conscious of the fact that the Sith was well capable of killing her, but it was a distant concern. If death was inevitable , then what mattered was how she faced it. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
She had attended a lecture on battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now. Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers. “Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives.” And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council— Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all— had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.
Now Darsha let herself sink into the Force, not trying to maintain any control over it, letting it take over as she had when facing the taozin and the Raptors. How many times had Master Bondara told her to simply relax, to let go? She did so now, feeling herself reach a deeper place in the Force than she had ever been before. How she knew this she could not say— it simply was. She felt her senses heighten to diamond sharpness, and every feature of the abandoned power station came into focus, both the visible and the invisible. She knew every wall, door, and piece of machinery, each particle of dust. And she knew what she had to do. All this, in less than a second’s time.
**
Darth Maul felt a change in the Force as the woman stepped forward. Interesting— she was more powerful than he had thought. It did not matter, of course. He, who had trained his entire life to kill Jedi, could certainly not fail to kill a mere Padawan. But a more challenging opponent would take more time. Still, there were no other exits from the building; his target and the droid weren’t going anywhere. He might as well enjoy himself.
**
Darth Maul bared his teeth at her. For a Padawan , she was a worthy opponent. No Jedi Master lived within the Force more fully than she did at this moment.
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
This does make the feat more impressive. She had risen to levels above what her master Anoon was capable of in his fight against Maul, even when he committed solely to defence. That puts her somewhere between Anoon and Qui Gon in terms of opponent quality, except without the stamina issues Qui Gon has (Qui Gon was tiring even in his first encounter against an injured Maul, according to The Wrath of Darth Maul).
@beezlebub: My point was more in regards to Dooku being in better shape than men half his age, which Qui Gon is older than. Your point is true however.
Agreed Jinn at his prime is nowhere near Dooku but it would still be cool to see what a Prime Jinn could do. I'd wager he's somewhere between Obi Wan and Mace Windu.
Not just under Mace. Probably closer to Obi wan then Mace in power but over Obi Wan. Along with that he was said to have dueled with Mace when he was younger which suggests they were peers though mace was hardly in his prime and Jinn was most definitely in his. I think I might remember a quote like that. Hmm.
Dooku is more powerful than Qui-Gon, and Makashi is much more lax than Qui-Gon. Ataru is the prime factor for Qui-Gon fatiguing more than anything else. His endurance may have been lowered than it was since his prime, but virtually all of his combat feats occurred around TPM.
Where's the quote the where it says Obi-wan surpassed everything Qui-gonn would've have been or something like that?
I don't know what you're asking - but Qui-Gon did say that he believed Obi-Wan would someday be greater than he ever was. That, and Kenobi just has better feats.
He's also better in terms of overall Force/Dark side knowledge, refinement and combat tactics. Basically, he's better than him in everything except strength, raw force power, and horn length.
@shootingnova: True on the force power part. They have performed similar feats when at the same level emotional motivation. But Savage does like to get angry more often than not..
To be honest.. Savage will be hard pressed to even beat him in horn length now. On the SoD cover Maul's horns have gotten noticeably longer. Savage isn't very good at anything xD
While Maul could defeat any of them individually (in fact, I don't see what's stopping him from stomping Kolar with the Force like he did to Kenobi), he is not beating all three at once. All are among the best in the Order as per Mace Windu, Shaak Ti and Obi-Wan Kenobi, (and objective sources stated that Kolar was one of the most skilled beings produced by the entire order). Saesee Tiin can present challenges to Maul in all areas, and adding Kolar, who was skilled enough to stomp Quinlan Vos in one page, and Kit Fisto, who is faster than anybody here and could casually outfight a pair of Magnaguards in a trilogy where three of them were a challenge to Kenobi is just too much.
Regarding Tiin being inferior to Savage, I just disagree. Savage is stronger and equally fast, but Tiin is more skilled, between sparring evenly with Windu and being listed as one of the best in the Order:
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"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"
Source: Revenge of the Sith
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Saesee Tiin could match or even defeat Savage individually.
TCW Maul could defeat any of them individually, but not them all at once. Team, 10/10.
Disagree with Saesee Tiin and Windu, since they were ''training'' this means nothing to me, especially I know that Windu usually holding himself even against dark jedi like Ventress and Sora Bulq.
Shaak Ti saying ''best of the order'' true, they were probably seventh - eighth strongest of the order, or whatsoever. Shaak Ti and Anakin knew Windu's power (confirmed second strongest of the order and Master of the Order) and probably that would be enough not others (Tiin-Kolar-Fisto) , imo thats why Anakin was worried for Sidious, not because Tiin-Kolar-Fisto. Since Fisto himself was already worried and afraid of the duel, and wishing Obi-Wan at their side.
With respects to power, Tiin has been noted as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, an accolade Mace Windu never received (Mace Windu has mostly received accolades for skill), and has thrown a droid four kilometers when Windu only threw one less than three (to be fair, it did hit an oncoming squadron, but then, precision matters little in a close-range fight like this, so power would be the way to go):
Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #114
Since Tiin was ''Jedi Ace'', of course his force on that area (flying with starfighters) exceeds Windu. That means nothing on lightsaber or force duel. Just like Adi Galia or Plo Koon (another jedi ace).
And I don't understand why did you showed your last scan either, Windu wasn't trying to exceed Tiin's throws, in force none of them can match with Windu or TCW Maul. They can't even match with Obi-Wan's or Anakin's force abilities (imo).
Disagree with Saesee Tiin and Windu, since they were ''training'' this means nothing to me, especially I know that Windu usually holding himself even against dark jedi like Ventress and Sora Bulq.
Shaak Ti saying ''best of the order'' true, they were probably seventh - eighth strongest of the order, or whatsoever. Shaak Ti and Anakin knew Windu's power and probably that would be enough not others (Tiin-Kolar-Fisto) , imo thats why Anakin was worried for Sidious, not because Tiin-Kolar-Fisto. Since Fisto himself was already worried and afraid of the duel, and wishing Obi-Wan at their side.
Since Tiin was ''Jedi Ace'', of course his force on that area (flying with starfighters) exceeds Windu. That means nothing on lightsaber or force duel. Just like Adi Galia or Plo Koon (another jedi ace).
And I don't understand why did you showed your last scan either, Windu wasn't trying to exceed Tiin's throws, in force none of them can match with Windu or TCW Maul. They can't even match with Obi-Wan's or Anakin's force abilities (imo).
1. So what? I disproved the notion he was holding back against Ventress or Bulq, and you never sufficiently responded to that point. If Windu was holding back because it was a spar, why was Saesee not holding back? And why would Windu not try to win like he did against Quinlan Vos? I'm sorry, but all of this is baseless speculation.
2. LOL. I have no idea what being afraid of Sidious is supposed to mean, not to mention they had Windu in the team. Your logic means Kenobi > Windu.
3. It explicitly stated "Force abilities". Read the quote.
4. LOL. Saesee Tiin can throw a droid four kilometers. Kenobi has never matched that feat, much less superseded it.
1. So what? I disproved the notion he was holding back against Ventress or Bulq, and you never sufficiently responded to that point. If Windu was holding back because it was a spar, why was Saesee not holding back? And why would Windu not try to win like he did against Quinlan Vos?
2. LOL. I have no idea what being afraid of Sidious is supposed to mean, not to mention they had Windu in the team. Your logic means Kenobi > Windu.
3. It explicitly stated "Force abilities". Read the quote.
4. LOL. Saesee Tiin can throw a droid four kilometers. Kenobi has never matched that feat, much less superseded it.
1. Because Tiin never showed any decent lightsaber duel feat unlike Mace Windu, and same Windu confirmed as second strongest of the Order only to Yoda.
2. No I explained my logic, but you still ignoring the fact of Windu, confirmed as strongest of the group. Fisto was talking with Tiin, imo this conservation was only for loser group ; Tiin-Fisto-Kolar, and they died as Fisto guessed. He was right.
3. I read, as I said, that ability nothing for lightsaber or force duels just like for Adi Gallia and Plo Koon.
4. Obi-Wan hurled Grievous, lifted Durge ship, stalemate with Anakin. Throwing an insignificant droid means nothing for me.
1. He was one of the best duelists in the Order, and none of this enables Windu to hold back without Saesee holding back. You have no evidence, just like you had none for Ventress or Bulq. All of this is made up just to suit your argument. You also ignored the point about Windu trying to win, like against Quinlan Vos, since it supports my argument and discredits yours.
2. Windu being the strongest of the group has nothing to do with my point. He was still accompanying Fisto. If Fisto still wanted Yoda or Kenobi, then there's merit to that point, not to mention your point is flawed because Fisto wanting Kenobi to help him has nothing to do with being inferior.
3. Yes, it does. "One of the strongest Force abilities of all Jedi". Why you have to twist the quote to suit your argument is beyond me.
4. LOL. Throwing Grievous, who is also non-Force sensitive, has merit now? Also, Kenobi manipulated Durge's ship and moved it a meter or less. I was the one who posted the scan, too.
You ignored the fact that it was four kilometers, which is much more than Kenobi ever has. That, and Tiin has hurled more than a battle droid:
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And this time, you have no way of twisting quotes to suit your argument. Windu outright noted Saesee Tiin's telekinetic strength.
Stalemating Anakin is a decent feat, but honestly, deflecting Anakin's telekinetic blasts are better. Anakin is much more powerful than Kenobi - Anakin's powers were considerably weakened during that fight due to his emotional torment, to the point where Anakin couldn't even sense Kenobi, and we know Anakin's senses are very advanced, considering he, along with Kenobi, fought an army while blindfolded.This has been addressed more than once.
And for the record, Anakin's TK feats are just better than Kenobi, by quite a bit. As a padawan, he was wrecking Ventress, hurling boulders the size of huts, manipulating Conqueror-class dreadnaughts a much larger distance than Kenobi did Durge's ship, not to mention the massive size difference. Later, he collapsed a huge dome facility, tore apart huge spider droids, and manipulated huge escape pods that dwarfed Durge in size and hurling it into the sun, which again, vastly outclasses Obi-Wan tipping Durge's ship to the side, etc.
1. Why did Ventress escape then ? And Why did she accept Windu's superiority ? And Windu defeated Bulq, when he discovered Ventress was there. This is not a coincidence either.
2. Yes it is, because it is confirmed that Windu is stronger than Obi-Wan or Anakin, yet Fisto wishing Obi-Wan at their side, this only means Obi-Wan is superior of them, not to Windu.
3. Same with four.
4. I didn't said Tiin is weak with the force. I said he is not superior to and can't match with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan can do that throwing with ease (imo).
And Obi-Wan destroyed Durge with the force and used force crush many time, another good feats.
1. Why did Ventress escape then ? And Why did she accept Windu's superiority ? And Windu defeated Bulq, when he discovered Ventress was there. This is not a coincidence either.
2. Yes it is, because it is confirmed that Windu is stronger than Obi-Wan or Anakin, yet Fisto wishing Obi-Wan at their side, this only means Obi-Wan is superior of them, not to Windu.
3. Same with four.
4. I didn't said Tiin is weak with the force. I said he is not superior to and can't match with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan can do that throwing with ease (imo).
And Obi-Wan destroyed Durge with the force and used force crush many time, another good feats.
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1. Because Ventress isn't on par with him? Isn't that obvious? She repeatedly lost to Dooku, so it only makes sense she would lose to Mace. Windu never defeated Bulq. He hurled him into a wall and ran away. They were, in saber combat, equal, and Sora landed a Force Push on Mace as well, it just has no effect. We can't say whether the push had any effect on Bulq, but whether it did or not is irrelevant. Bulq should have lost the saber duel as well, considering Windu is the second most skilled duelist in the Order and a perfect equal to Dooku, who defeated Bulq. It's just that they were fighting evenly during the scenario, and a more plausible reason for this than Windu "holding back" (which is still unsupported) is because they both utilized Vaapad and probably knew each other's forms so well it was tantamount to making skill irrelevant.
2. Windu is confirmed to be the second most skilled swordsman in the Order by AotC, not even by RotS. I'll pay him being the second most skilled swordsman by RotS, but he is not the most powerful, and this is something in sources have indicate. Windu rarely received accolades for his power, often it would be an accolade of skill. Regarding power, Windu has conceded that both Anakin and Yoda are more powerful than him, and in RotS, he even mused the possibility of Anakin being the most powerful Jedi alive. Of course, that title belongs to Yoda, but based off his telekinetic feats, Anakin is close to Yoda and is more powerful than Windu. Before you bring up Windu and the army, it's an inconsistent showing. Windu also lost to an army of unarmed beings, require other Jedi Masters' help to hurl an army before, required Yoda's help to TK even less battle droids on Coruscant than he did on Dantooine on his own, and he has failed to lift miniature transports before. In general, his TK has never been shown at that level. It's an exaggerated feat.
And before you bring up Anakin stalemating Kenobi only, that was also circumstantial. Anakin's powers were drastically hindered during the fight.
Also, your argument still doesn't make sense. Why would Fisto not feel comfortable with Windu accompanying the Jedi, but feel more comfortable with Kenobi accompanying them? You're just reaching at this point, honestly.
3. What?
4. Kenobi has never received accolades for his power, only skill. Moreover, Kenobi required maximum effort to send Grievous sailing only a hundred or so meters. Tiin hurled a droid four kilometers, and it likely wasn't even maximum effort. Even if it was, it is 40 times the value, and Grievous is not 40 times harder to hurl than Battle droids. He is more durable and heavier, but he is still non-Force sensitive and therefore cannot offer any innate defenses. So yes, Tiin's showing is better, just like his accolades in the Force are. Why is this so hard to explain? And since you said Kenobi could easily replicate that feat when Windu couldn't, show me Obi-Wan throwing anything even close to four kilometers.
5. He used Crush on a paltry Flamethrower. Durge got blown apart because he was weakened by the electricity, which is consistent with other times when he has been hit by electricity. That is why, before the electrical attack, Kenobi couldn't even get out. I still have no idea what you are trying to suggest, honestly.
Who said Obi-Wan can't throw an insignificant droid to four kilometers ? Did we saw anyone trying to do it and failed ? No. You are making assumptions on uncertain measures. IIRC Tiin never lifted a starfigher, never used force crush, never hurled special droid like Grievous (non-force sensitive yes, but fast and has some strong foot holds) and didn't stalemated with Anakin, didn't destroyed Durge with force wave, only thing he did is throwing an insignificant droid to four kilometers, who tried to do that and failed ? Really, Obi-Wan has better feats and better connections with the force.
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Obi-Wan didn't affected from Dooku's large force push just like Anakin.
-1:44-
Anakin and Obi-Wan making large force push together.
-2:16-
Obi-Wan hurling Anakin for catching Dooku
And lastly, in their duel at mustafar they were stalemated, yet you are claiming Anakin was weaken without any direct proof or explanation.
All these proves, Anakin and Obi-Wan was equal rivals in the force as well. (Not potentially, in usage)
@erkan12: Obi-Wan does not have better telekinetic feats. This is just an appeal to ignorance.
As for Anakin being hindered, that much is evident. Read the RotS novel and Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. I already addressed this here anyways: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/battle-misconceptions-obi-wan-vs-anakin-1547403/
@shootingnova: Yes it is. Only feat of Tiin is throwing a droid to 4 km, what does make you think that Obi-Wan can't ? Obi-Wan still has better connection with force.
I read it, yeah you can say Anakin was hindered, but there are still no true evidence (like evidence saying ; ''against Obi-Wan, Anakin was depowered''). Same Anakin murdered many decent jedi with ease in the temple (including Cin Drallig) Turning to dark side, just like against Dooku (in a moment he used his rage) on the contrary it gives him more strength. But well, Obi-Wan was great.
Yes it is. Only feat of Tiin is throwing a droid to 4 km, what does make you think that Obi-Wan can't ? Obi-Wan still has better connection with force.
I read it, yeah you can say Anakin was hindered, but there are still no true evidence (like evidence saying ; ''against Obi-Wan, Anakin was depowered''). Same Anakin murdered many decent jedi with ease in the temple (including Cin Drallig) Turning to dark side, just like against Dooku (in a moment he used his rage) on the contrary it gives him more strength. But well, Obi-Wan was great.
Prove Kenobi can - or stop making baseless claims. And I did provide evidence. Moreover - Anakin was hindered because he didn't want to kill Obi-Wan - none of the Jedi in the temple were even remotely as close to Anakin as Kenobi.
Honestly, look - these debates are just frustrating and tiring. You never concede a single point at all - you twist and turn quotes and other things around just so that you won't have to concede, and I have never seen you concede a thing. If you can't twist evidence to your favor or undermine other people's evidence, then you just ignore what they say. At this rate - you'll never submit, so why debate at all? We're never going to reach common ground if you just disbelieve anything I say.
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