TAU vs THE PROTOSS

@jwwprod: thanks for the shoutout. i love seeing Protoss threads!

i really wish i had more knowledge on war hammer races and abilities so i could make a more educated estimation. I'm a die hard Protoss fanboy, so it's hard not to just default to them in most cases, especially if this is equal numbers. i do want to give everyone in WH4K the benefit of the doubt.

what kind of firepower are we talking about for the Tau? I'm guessing similar energy weapons?

@killerwasp: Yea, but they weren't ready to rebel for a long time. I don't think they would suddenly rebel if they went to war with the Protoss.

@wut: No, but i don't think they'd war the protoss as well. Technically speaking elites were in charge of the military parts, while the prophets were more on the civil matters. That was at least the original agreement they had.

@killerwasp: I think they would war at first, but I would assume a cease-fire would quickly follow, but you know more about the covenant then I do.

@wut: eh yeah, i just don't see the covenant wanting to war though is all i mean they hated humans, but everyone else pretty much joined with an offering hand cept for those hunters they were like naw bro we dont want ur covenant, and covenant was like YES U DO! *as they precede to fight* XD.

and i mean how could the protoss ever wanna fight these guys i mean their just so cute when u think about it when their in their armor XD

@wut if they are fighting a space battle over a planet, they could still use their storms. And I think they would have motherships as major hitters, and then i also wonder if they would have arbiter's cloaking the motherships just to add even more power to them, plus Carriers would send out so many interceptors that the tau would get overwhelmed with targets, and then they would send in their voids phoenixes, not to mention the classics like corsairs and scouts which shred everything air.

@savageslayer: Tau have fighters of their own, and Interceptors have to get through Tau shielding and armor plating which can go up against Imperium Firepower. You would need a lotof interceptors for that.

Tau also have ships of different sizes that serve different purposes, to assume they don't is undercutting them by a bit.

... 40k ships... can't entire atmosphere. They are too large. That is why they trade fire at incredible ranges. I was not kidding when I say trade fire over a solar system as in one could be near pluto and be snipping at a ship near mars. Of course, they do sometimes fight in the area around a planet but never in the atmosphere of a world as their firepower would cause very, very bad things for the planet, but that is the closest I have ever read for them as their weapons have incredible range. The only time they get close is when they wish to ram someone.

EDIT: I have never seen Tau ram anyone, and I doubt they do so. Ramming is more of an Ork thing or an Imperium desperation move.

@dontevenblink: yes here is some feats for the tau empire.

Zealots have TP and TK attacks also, it's just not used in games.

@tparks: Do you have a quote that shows its effectiveness and gives us an idea of its range? That would help greatly.

@killerwasp: those are pretty dang cool! thanks for sharing. depending on the number situation, i'm still thinking Protoss might take this because of shields and psionic abilities. those rail guns do sound impressive though.

what about durability feats? because even the Zealots and Templars can tank heavy artillery pretty well because of shields/armor. and then their damage output is ridiculous with energy weapons.

@dontevenblink: I have a quote of Zealots going down to Firebats. They aren't quite that durable. If a Zealot is tanking a direct artillery shot then that is the king of all Zealots.

Tau are very fragile. Very fragile. It is a running gag in the universe. Tau strategy is to shoot the crap out of whatever comes close to it. Getting into hand to hand with even a human is a bad idea for a Tau as even humans are stronger then they.

That said, their basic weaponry is a railgun/plasma hybrid. While it isn't as strong as the Imperium version, it is far more reliable.

Tanking a plasma shot is akin to tanking a solar flare although in a much smaller package, so anywhere from 3 to 24ish million degrees. That said, the weapon does fire slow and has a heck of a recoil, so it shouldn't be that hard for a Zealot to dodge it, but tanking it would be a baddddd idea.

@wut: Problem is, pre-Great War means no Dark Templar tech and no Motherships.

Otherwise, the Fleet is much larger, it just doesn't have the heavy weapons and humility it does during SC2.

@boringperson: Crap you are right. The Dark Templar tech loss, while large, is not nearly as bad as losing Motherships which are going to have the power they are going to need if they intend to contend with the Tau.

Well this is a sticky situation. The Motherships (And FTL speed) is what lets me believe they can pull ahead of the Tau thanks to their larger navy (meat shields) and their Motherships, but without their Motherships, I do not believe they would have the power to defeat the Tau naval forces even if they are lesser then the Protoss as, individually, they pack a greater punch.

Post-fall Aiur wouldn't stand a chance as they are scattered and separated, their best shot would be Post-HOTS, but do they have the same number of ships they did before? The loss of Aiur was a major blow in both population and production capabilities.

@wut well if were not in the game versions of things then carriers don't just launch 8-10 interceptors, they launch 100's maybe even 1000's each, so i think they would have enough to take down their shields.

@savageslayer: I doubt thousands, but hundreds doesn't sound to bad because I know Protoss do something special with it, but I don't see the interceptors doing much to a Tau Ship to make them important.

If you want, I can post some standard Imperium ship weaponry to give you an idea of what they commonly go up against to give you a better idea of how tough their ships are.

@wut I have a feeling that most of the imperium ships basic weapons would be equivalent of a yamato cannon.

@savageslayer: Lol no.

Meanwhile the massed guns of the fleet continued to pound the planet, until many monasteries were reduced to miles-wide craters, angry magma spewing from the raw wounds in the planet's crust. The very surface of Caliban began to crack and heave under the strain of the bombardment, the fury of the Dark Angels blinding them to the devastation they were wreaking on their own world.

As the planet itself started to break apart

[...]

[Jonson and Luther fight, Chaos loses, gets annoyed and swipes at the planet.]

[...]

Caliban, already weakened by the bombardment, was ripped apart and destroyed in a cataclysmic explosion, the debris being sucked into the warp.- Codex: Dark Angels, 4th ed., p. 9

The Night Lords' ships orbited Nostramo, hundreds of weapons trained on the shrouded planet, the rays of the system's dying sun glinting from barrels too numerous to count. As the fabric of space buckled and twisted, disgorging the few craft able to keep pace, the lances and mass drivers of Night Haunter's flagship opened fire upon the planet.

Beam after beam of incandescent light joined the fusillade, all concentrating upon the same point, a weak spot in Nostramo's adamantium crust theorised to be left by the Primarch's initial landing. The lasers of the Night Lords' ships focused a blinding lance of pure energy into the planet's core, and with a cataclysmic explosion, the dark planet burst apart.- Index Astartes: Night Lords

“Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface, torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact.”

Nemesis pg. 375

"It would be possible to manufacture a missile of any size: from a weapon a little larger than a normal rocket shell, to one capable of wiping out a city, province, or continent."

Rogue Trader

Few men knew the awesome power of destruction the captain of a starship possessed; the power to level cities and crack continents

Nightbringer

"Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface; torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations."

Pg.561 Nemesis

"Outside the station the macro cannon and lances of the Aethon began to rotate. Plasma flushed into reactors and energy wells, the fury of suns snarling in its shackles."

Pg.100 Fateweaver

"A bombardment had begun, and the people of Dagonet’s capital feared it was the end of the world.

They knew so little of the reality of things, however. High above in orbit, it was only the warship Thanato that fired on the city, and even then it was not with the vessel’s most powerful cannons. The people did not know that a fleet of craft were poised in silence around their sister ship, watchful and waiting. Had all the vessels of the Warmaster’s flotilla unleashed their killpower, then indeed those fears would have come true; the planet’s crust cracked, the continents sliced open. Perhaps those things would happen, soon enough ? but for now it was sufficient for the Thanato to hurl inert kinetic kill-rods down through the atmosphere, the sky-splitting shriek of their passage climaxed by a lowing thunder as the warshots obliterated power stations, military compounds and the vast mansion-houses of the noble clans. From the ground it seemed like wanton destruction; from orbit, it was a shrewd and surgical pattern of attack."

Pg.626 Nemesis

"Nothing in our inventory would even come close to doing the job, but an astropathic message to the nearest naval unit would bring a task force here within weeks, and a flotilla of battleships ought to be enough to level the continent. A couple of barrages from their lance batteries would be enough to excise this cancer, however deeply it was buried.

Of course the planet would be rendered uninhabitable for generations, but no one in their right mind would be willing to set foot here once the necron presence was known in any case, so the question was pretty moot. And if anyone were foolish enough to demur, I had no doubt that Amberley would bring the full force of the Inquisition to bear on the objectors the moment I appraised her of the situation."

-Ciaphas Cain series, Caves of Ice, page 169(pdf version)

"A mighty Repulsive-class Grand Cruiser with powerful reactors and heavy armour in sloping facets of adamantine and ceramite scores of metres thick, the vessel carried a weight of armament and ordnance that could reduce a continent to ruins with a single salvo."-Black Crusade

Mere Imperial Titans can create craters hundreds of meters wide.

The ground rumbled with the footfalls of an angry leviathan as the Dies Irae strode through the flurries of missiles and gunfire, its mighty weaponry blazing and gouging huge tears through the loyalist ranks. Miniature suns exploded in the desert as the Titan’s plasma weaponry blasted craters hundreds of metres in diameter, obliterating hundreds of Astartes at a stroke and turning the sand to shimmering dark glass.

-Fulgrim

A yamato cannon is so outclassed.

@savageslayer: Take note that all the feats I posted were just them using Lances (Lasers/Plasma depending on the author) and Macrocannons (Mass-Drivers) and not specialized Exterminatus weaponry.

These are the basic weaponry of Imperium Starships.

@wut mass drivers like the ones the consortium used in star wars?

Tau fleet can definitley go up against, protoss, but i still think toss would take em after a long well fought battle with losses on both sides.

@savageslayer: Macrocannons are, essentially, point defense cannons. Lances are the pin-point precision weapon they use to pin-cushion things while Macrocannons are akin to the smaller weapons that they 'fill the sky with' to take out smaller vessels and ships. They fire tank sized rounds.

Each Carrier is equipped with planet glassing tech. As in huge laser cannons that are used for bombarding planets into sterilization. Individually it would probably take a Carrier a day or two to glass a planet. Tassadar's Fleet of like 7-12 Carriers was capable of glassing a planet in a few hours even while avoiding damage to civilian centers and mounting rescue efforts on the ground. My first time estimate -a single carrier glassing in a day or two- is just guesswork because Tassadar's Flagship the Gantrithor was a part of the Carrier group. The Gantrithor was no simple Carrier and Tassadar was no simple pilot. (Yes, Protoss vessels are capable of being piloted by individuals.)

@boringperson: Eldar have Ghost Ships that can be piloted by spirit stones, but anyways, my point was they never demonstrate that glassing beam in ship to ship battles.

@jwwprod said:

@killerwasp said:

@jwwprod: see thats the thing "eventually win the war." <-- that doesn't work Tau unlike again most warhammer fantasy adapt the longer u fight them the better they will be. Protoss will have to end them quick in order to win, i just dont see them doing that, not saying it couldnt be done just im not seeing that happen majority of the time.

"How do you think the battle suits will fair against some of the Protoss's heavy hitters like the Immortals or Colossus's?" <-- colo IIRC can't hit air, so their basically walking targets for the tau aircraft, for the immortals i'd think they'd fair pretty well they've one shotted tanks and u gotta remember tau also now got Titans, so that makes these heavy hitters even less effective.

"And I also do believe that the Protoss navy a superior fleet." <-- I'm not doubting that, but what im doubting is the numbers the tau got and their battle ships can affect the protoss enough. Even if they didn't the protoss do IIRC got orbital stations and planetary stations that could also them as well. You gotta remember the first actual major battle against the imps, the tau learned they wont be able to face them head on, so the first major battle after only a few months ( at max ) they did a different tactic it and was way more effective ( a classic ambush ) to which the imps nearly lost that battle ( plot devices and writing saved the day ). With that in mind just like against the nids within short period/s of time they figured out how to mess with the nids and of course wrecked them in the process ( for what little forces they had ).

Imo that is why they win, they don't stop till they drop XD

LOL @wut@strider92@eisenfauste do u see this?!?! XD lolololloolool so funny prod XD

@killerwasp: Lol I like how the last one randomly added a human nose.

@wut: ikr? XD it also seems more human anyway XD. Protoss got no chance now to win XD

Bump.

The Protoss have more in common with the Eldar than they do with the T'au.

@sirmethos said:

Yea but Protoss vs Eldar has already been done before.

@jwwprod: I was commenting on the OP's comment about the Protoss and T'au being "the same thing from their respected universe,"

The Protoss are far more similar to the Eldar, while the Zerg are the equivalent of the 'nids.

@sirmethos said:

I will have to agree on this.

Though I do believe that this is still a good fight.

@jwwprod: I have to agree, but Tau still win with a land slide XD huehue those babes XD

Bump.

Tau.

As they currently are, the Protoss are too merciful to fight in a way that would legitimately give the Tau pause. In terms of actual ship to ship combat... The Protoss cannot possibly win a pitched battle.

Tau harshly outnumber. Tau harshly outgun. Tau are willing to fight harder than the Protoss.

Generally speaking, the Protoss are not at all used to the mindset of total war. Terran scientists constantly note that they're absolutely confused as to how the Protoss ever lose any battle ever with the ridiculous tech they have... and the answer is that the Protoss have never confronted a race with a legitimate chance of wiping them out other than the Hybrids. (The thought of Hybrid Leviathans is abjectly horrifying.)

Even as far pushed back as the Protoss are at the end of Starcraft 2... if they really wanted to they could rather easily wipe out all of the Zerg and Terran. The worst part of it all? They know that and so even after losing their homeworld they're generally still more worried about Adun/Dark Templar strife than fighting the war. It's pretty much ingrained in their culture... the last time they went to "war" they basically incinerated the Kalathi race into the stone age. Which created the Protoss philosophy of Dae'Uhl, non-interference at all costs. They've been watching over the Zerg and Terran for centuries or more by the start of Starcraft 1 iirc.

If by some miracle the Protoss realized the Tau were a legitimate threat, had a couple tons of humble pie, and stole some Terran battle tactics they'd have a decent chance at stalemating the Tau and winning via attrition.

Bump

Hmm tough one....

In terms of tech i would say the Protoss takes it, Individual strengh also goes to protoss (A zealot is comparible with an astartes in terms of combat prowess) and In terms of numbers....im not really sure how large the entire Protoss empire is...but as shown in Legacy of the void they do have many sub factions supporting them like the Taldarim (basicly like dark eldar but dark protoss) and the entire machine protoss faction to name a few.

The Protoss have higher tech because?
1.They have pretty nice warp tech since they can warp in entire buildings from other planets in minutes
2.They have supreme shield tech (though Tau plasma fire can easily pen this though)
3.They have managed to combine tech and their psychic powers into a powerful tool

They can match the tau in firepower (although still not as good) but more then make up for it with their combined arsenal of good melee,psychic powers and powerful range weapons

And we can all see how easily defeated the Tau was even with normal human psykers in 40k , these are librarian level psykers running around the battlefield along with zealots , massive titan level colosus (note that ingame colosus,thor and ultralisk are massively nerfed from the lore version) and also the templars and not forgetting Archons....Those guys can handle the Riptides IMO

The real advantage tau really has is that they have allied races helping them...Though the protoss can handle them too i think

Don't know why so many wanted to bring in a numbers disadvantage on the protoss so often. Pretty much been the Protoss MO for their history with battling other races. They have always relied on superior tech, even when perhaps the Terran has them in firepower or numbers.

And I believe they still have the tech advantage, better capital ships, with cloaking, the ability to glass planets etc (all still possible for them before great war too, as the other commentator was bemoaning loss of mothership. Also stasis > vortex).

Their psionic powers are also a decided advantage. And their I don't get why people don't think the Protoss leadership couldn't adapt in the same way the Tau... Changing strategies and tech during the great war - finding weaknesses and exploiting them against the Zerg in a few missions, etc.

Protoss, all the way for me.

Necromancer in bound, the resurrection is begun.

Ok, so the thing a lot of people overlook is the crazy level of technology the protoss have, but beyond that, is the Psionic abilities of the Protoss.

Lets just go with the Brood War Era High Templar for starters.

"The High Templar are seasoned, veteran warriors of the Protoss armies that have walked far down the path of Khala. Those who choose to take on the mantle of the High Templar set aside the frenzied rage of the Zealot, and avoid direct combat if possible. Instead, they use their mighty psionic abilites to bolster our other troops. The sight of enemy forces being torn apart by a High Templar's Psionic Storm or wasting their fire on projected Hallucinations is proof enough of Protoss superiority. It is no wonder that other species fear to attack us."

This is internal lore said from a Protoss leader, and while it is partial propaganda, it is said in a way to allow the reader to understand the base role of the High Templar. There is other lore as well, the source is most likely the og instruction manual, that basically stated that a High Templar who allows his abilities to "lose control" can create storms that can threaten a entire planet, and that templar created storms like this almost destroyed the protoss in the past. And this is just the base power scale for the protoss. If we get into Archon's lore, beings of pure psionic energy, or the Dark Archon's whos psionic energy can dominate the minds of its enemies the protoss already have a edge on the battlefield. The ability to create controlled black holes, that can pull in enemy forces into a small area to then vaporize them with a giant ship that could hold there everything inside it.

When you really dive deep into protoss lore, they really have some crazy power scaling, and its actually strange that for game reasons the Terran and zerg stand a chance.