#1 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

VS

.

.

.

-No prep

-No knowledge

-In Character

-Battle takes place

There.

Snake Eyes shall be armed with his signature katana. Leon gets a measly Combat Knife, 'cause that's all he needs.

#2 Edited by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I think you mean

Bah, if you wish to forego the customary Muramasa blades, Storm Shadow is up to the challenge. Since Leon is far too clothed for his apparently seductive mood, Storm Shadow will be happy to oblige any ladies in the crowd, and begin the fight like so:

#3 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

I would like Snake Eyes, if that's acceptable.

Nope, you chose Snake Eyes. gtfo

#4 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

@Esquire said:

redbird3rdboywonder: Can I change from Snake Eyes to Storm Shadow? I have more relevant scans of Storm Shadow than Snake Eyes, it would seem. Thanks!

redbird3rdboywonder said:

@Esquire: Yes you can

redbird3rdboywonder said:

Number 9-Esquire- Storm Shadow

Number 11-NickZ- Leon Scott Kennedy

Getting tf back in, thank you very much. Your move, denuded Kennedy.

#5 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto:

@Esquire said:

redbird3rdboywonder: Can I change from Snake Eyes to Storm Shadow? I have more relevant scans of Storm Shadow than Snake Eyes, it would seem. Thanks!

redbird3rdboywonder said:

@Esquire: Yes you can

redbird3rdboywonder said:

Number 9-Esquire- Storm Shadow

Number 11-NickZ- Leon Scott Kennedy

Getting tf back in, thank you very much. Your move, denuded Kennedy.

#6 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

#7 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

Great debate man, Comic Vine is totally hyped.

#8 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Great debate man, Comic Vine is totally hyped.

What comes next? THE SUSPENSE!!!!!

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

Great debate man, Comic Vine is totally hyped.

What comes next? THE SUSPENSE!!!!!

COME VOTE ON OUR EPIC MATCH!!

#10 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

Great debate man, Comic Vine is totally hyped.

What comes next? THE SUSPENSE!!!!!

COME VOTE ON OUR EPIC MATCH!!

I win! Because I POSTED A SCAN! Look upon my debating skillz ye mighty, and feel your hearts quail within you!

#11 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

Great debate man, Comic Vine is totally hyped.

What comes next? THE SUSPENSE!!!!!

COME VOTE ON OUR EPIC MATCH!!

I win! Because I POSTED A SCAN! Look upon my debating skillz ye mighty, and feel your hearts quail within you!

PIS. GTFO.

#12 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: The incomparable Zambuto strikes again, his keen intellect cutting through the mists of, well, everything relating to him losing. However, you've neglected to counter Storm Shadow's epic jaw muscles. Ninja Teeth solo!

#13 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Really, I think I can get by with just the teeth feat. I might post a little more, but it's not really necessary anymore. The damage has been done.

#14 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

Little late but whatevs.

OK, first things first, I'm just going to get this out of the way now: this is NOT a stomp. Leon, though often cited as a premier video game badass, has never recieved much respect on the battle boards.

Hopefully, I can change that.

http://outskirtsbattledome.wikispaces.com/Character+Profile+-+Leon+Kennedy

You don't rise through Governmental ranks and become the greatest Agent in American history by being less than competent. Rather, Leon Kennedy is one of the single most proficient combatants his planet has to offer, both in gunslinging as well as close quarters combat.

Case in point; President Svetlana, the greatest military instructor in all of Russia. Leon does more than just keep pace with her, considering he merely wants to subdue her, not fight. Fluently trading strikes and countering holds with the upmost dexterity; and hand to hand is Leon's weakest area.

Blades are where he truly excels, outranking even Chris Redfield. If anything, Leon should have the advantage through weapon choice alone. Swords are near-useless when you get close enough, whereas the closer you are, the better a knife is.

Let's go back to that first scan you posted. Storm Shadow's speed and skill are incredible, expertly cutting a man's clothing right off his body without harming him. Impressive, but nothing a certain former Black Ops Super Soldier Leon regularly humiliates can't replicate.

The bullet fast, multitonning Jack Krauser is superior to any one Storm Shadow has faced, with the exception of maybe Snake Eyes himself. Through nothing but sheer combat prowess, Leon can match him move for move, despite the major stat difference.

Even before recieving the Master Plaga, Krauser was a one man army super commando, fast enough to not only react to a bullet speed projectile, but come within millimeters of actually shooting it down.

While still human, Krauser's skill was unrivaled in the U.S. SOCOM, and he was considered one of the most highly sought after mercenaries in the field. Even with a dead arm, he successfully fought off the giant, mutated, near-immortal Javier Hidelgo. As if he wasn't elite enough, Saddler went and gave him a Master Plaga, enhancing his physical abilities to those far beyond any normal man.

ALL that, and Leon Scott Kennedy shows him time and time again who the better man is, through nothing more than natural fighting skill.

0:35 unyielding accuracy and dodging bullets

4:17 dodges a grenade, when Leon's blood really gets pumping he pretty much sees the world in slow motion

10:50 WITNESS THE POWER... and uhh, another showing of Leon's unbelievable reflexes

11:50 Leon's unrealistic and impractical agility is pretty much a running gag

12:05 Leon effortlessly ducks below strikes much faster than bullets (Leon does this at several points in the fight)

In short, Leon's trademark agility, superhuman reaction time, and top tier skill, all working in unison, will allow him to get within knife distance of Storm Shadow, and take it from there. The closer the two are, the more the odds are in Leon's favor, and considering it's harder to separate then it is to join, Leon should have the advantage throughout the fight.

#15 Edited by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto: Really, I think I can get by with just the teeth feat. I might post a little more, but it's not really necessary anymore. The damage has been done.

HMM, I WONDER WHAT STORM SHADOW HAS BEEN UP TO IN ORDER TO GAIN SUCH STRONG JAW MUSCLES... if that's how Tommy rolls maybe Leon can just seduce him.

I went and made my opening arguments btw, feel free to make a rebuttle, but it might be in your best interests to just give up instead.

#16 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

OK, first things first, I'm just going to get this out of the way now: this is NOT a stomp. Leon, though often cited as a premier video game badass, has never recieved much respect on the battle boards. Hopefully, I can change that.

Leon's no slouch in combat, but he's also not a swordsman. He can do well in a lot of areas, but I don't really see him as Storm Shadow's equal with a blade.

You don't rise through Governmental ranks and become the greatest Agent in American history by being less than competent. Rather, Leon Kennedy is one of the single most proficient combatants his planet has to offer, both in gunslinging as well as close quarters combat.

You don't become one of the top two combatants in your entire universe by being less than competent. Storm Shadow is, with the possible exception of his compatriot Snake Eyes, the most lethal person in the entire world of GI Joe. He's dominant with a variety of weapons, and his swordsmanship and speed are almost unparalleled.

Case in point; President Svetlana, the greatest military instructor in all of Russia. Leon does more than just keep pace with her, considering he merely wants to subdue her, not fight. Fluently trading strikes and countering holds with the upmost dexterity; and hand to hand is Leon's weakest area.

If keeping pace means not landing a single strike while taking a few and then getting his attempt at a hold dominated, resulting in him getting tossed across the room, then yes, Leon does keep up. Unless that instructor has some significant superhuman speed, that doesn't bode well for him landing hits on Storm Shadow.

Knife thrown so fast it's a blur? A routine, even casual snag for SS. Highly trained officer shooting at you from close range? A little more difficult, but nothing he can't handle. Leon's accuracy with thrown weapons is useless against an opponent as fast and skilled as he's facing here.

Blades are where he truly excels, outranking even Chris Redfield. If anything, Leon should have the advantage through weapon choice alone. Swords are near-useless when you get close enough, whereas the closer you are, the better a knife is. Let's go back to that first scan you posted. Storm Shadow's speed and skill are incredible, expertly cutting a man's clothing right off his body without harming him. Impressive, but nothing a certain former Black Ops Super Soldier Leon regularly humiliates can't replicate.

Storm Shadow does just fine with a sword in close quarters, and Leon will have to get past the superior reach of the katana in order to get in close. SS routinely dominates highly trained ninjas and Cobra troops and Yakuza thugs, as well as Cobra officers such as in the scan above.

Leon is good, but even you admit that h2h is not his specialty. In his fight with Hauser, he loses his knife at one point. What's to stop Storm Shadow from doing this?

He can humiliate trained knife fighters with absolute ease, so why should Leon do any better?

The bullet fast, multitonning Jack Krauser is superior to any one Storm Shadow has faced, with the exception of maybe Snake Eyes himself. Through nothing but sheer combat prowess, Leon can match him move for move, despite the major stat difference.

He's also fought people like Wraith, who, in addition to being a 10-tonner with almost indestructible durability, can turn invisible. And repeatedly equaling Snake Eyes is feats enough in itself.

Even before recieving the Master Plaga, Krauser was a one man army super commando, fast enough to not only react to a bullet speed projectile, but come within millimetersof actually shooting it down.

Reacting to bullet-speed projectiles, eh? The reflexes to almost shoot something moving that fast is impressive. But Storm Shadow dodges everything. High-tech tasers? Child's play. Slices through multiple arrows fired almost simultaneously, and the guy walks through bullets without concern. He repeatedly deflects bullets with his sword, and dodges sustained laser-fire with ease. He's faster than anything you've showed of Leon. Leon dodges aim, Tommy deflects the bullets themselves.

0:35 unyielding accuracy and dodging bullets

Dodging aim. SS has done far better.

4:17 dodges a grenade, when Leon's blood really gets pumping he pretty much sees the world in slow motion

Grenades are slow, and reacting to someone charging you, even at superhuman speeds, isn't that unusual.

10:50 WITNESS THE POWER... and uhh, another showing of Leon's unbelievable reflexes

He dodges a guy jumping on top of him. Hardly unbelievable against a guy who dodges lasers.

11:50 Leon's unrealistic and impractical agility is pretty much a running gag

SS tangles with Snake Eyes, so agility won't phase him. And he does pretty well in the agility department himself.

12:05 Leon effortlessly ducks below strikes much faster than bullets (Leon does this at several points in the fight)

And Storm Shadow toys with bullets and dances around lasers.

In short, Leon's trademark agility, superhuman reaction time, and top tier skill, all working in unison, will allow him to get within knife distance of Storm Shadow, and take it from there. The closer the two are, the more the odds are in Leon's favor, and considering it's harder to separate then it is to join, Leon should have the advantage throughout the fight.

Storm Shadow is just as agile and has faster reactions, and his bladed skill is much greater than Leon's. The precision it takes to shred someone's clothing without hurting them means that he has control on a millimeter level, even when his opponent is moving around and attacking at the same time. That's far more impressive than any blade feats Leon has, and I haven't even shown his fight with Snake Eyes yet. Storm Shadow has the skill and speed to keep distance if he wants to, or to cut Leon into pieces at close range. Or he can simply disarm the guy and kill him with his own knife. Leon isn't a wimp, but he's also not an old-school ninja. Storm Shadow really has every advantage in this fight.

#17 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio
Leon's no slouch in combat, but he's also not a swordsman. He can do well in a lot of areas, but I don't really see him as Storm Shadow's equal with a blade.

False. Knife combat is Leon's specialty and favored choice. Just because he has feats outsid e of that doesn't detract from his signature style; does Daredevil flipping a limo mean he's any less agile?

You don't become one of the top two combatants in your entire universe by being less than competent. Storm Shadow is, with the possible exception of his compatriot Snake Eyes, the most lethal person in the entire world of GI Joe. He's dominant with a variety of weapons, and his swordsmanship and speed are almost unparalleled.

I can literally take out "Storm Shadow" and put in "Leon Kennedy" and the statement will remain true. Straight from the President himself, Leon is the best. Period. Not the best at backflips, or the best at shooting, or the best at punching; just the best, as in, the best in all of those.

You don't become one of the top two combatants in your entire universe by being less than competent. Leon is, with the possible exception of his compatriot Chris, the most lethal person in the entire world of Resident Evil. He's dominant with a variety of firearms, and his knifesmanship and speed are almost unparalleled.

Boom. See RE6 files for details of President Benford basically giving Leon a blowjob.

If keeping pace means not landing a single strike while taking a few and then getting his attempt at a hold dominated, resulting in him getting tossed across the room, then yes, Leon does keep up.

Ah, but the same applies in reverse; not a single hit managed to connect with Leon, did it?

From a technical standpoint, Leon did far better. Svetlana was held on the defense the whole time, dodging and avoiding whereas Leon kept coming in and simply countered strikes, not dodged. Actually hurting her wasn't what Leon wanted to do, only subdue.

Obviously the clip stops, but I should mention Leon dodges a hailstorm of bullets from two dozen guards immediately afterward.

Knife thrown so fast it's a blur? A routine, even casual snag for SS. Highly trained officer shooting at you from close range? A little more difficult, but nothing he can't handle. Leon's accuracy with thrown weapons is useless against an opponent as fast and skilled as he's facing here.

Leon threw it a bit faster than a blur; Salazar's hand was already tracing whatever trap or button he was about to spring before Leon had even drawn the blade. Considering he threw it from across the room with pinpoint accuracy and without even aiming, it goes to show how well he can handle a knife. There's also the fact that he dodged the knife after the super-strong Verdugo threw it back at him at bullet speeds.

Storm Shadow does just fine with a sword in close quarters, and Leon will have to get past the superior reach of the katana in order to get in close. SS routinely dominates highly trained ninjas and Cobra troops and Yakuza thugs, as well as Cobra officers such as in the scan above.

Nothing Leon can't match, effortlessly taking on a horde of super powered Ganadoes with only a pair of hedge clippers, while handcuffed (Leon excels with all types of blades, even ones not commonly used as weapons)

He goes on to effortlessly snap said handcuffs like a twig and kick all of Russia's ass at once.

Canon fodder is a nice topping (Leon has plenty of that, disarming a Ganado of his weapon in a single motion, reversing JD's hold on him and stripping him of all his equipment, hordes of mutated abominations at a time with merely a pistol) but nobody cares about those. We need to get down to the sweet stuff, the REAL fights - case in point, Chris Redfield.

This brief scuffle is a great showing, besides the fact that Chris is a one-man army super commando who can give anyone a run for their money, there are specific details that should be pointed out.

First: Leon obviously had the speed advantage. Compared to a guy that weaves through Harrier Jet Chain Gun Fire whilst fighting off a supersoldier army (probably tougher than avoiding pistol fire like SS did), I'd say that's pretty good for Leon. Notice how he arrives just in time to throw Chris off, a millisecond later and Carla would have a bullet in her head.

0:17 Chris attempts to withdraw his pistol, but Leon is fast enough to catch him by the wrist and literally shove it back in the holster

0:18 A second later and Chris is back on the offense, throwing a bone crushing punch - which Leon deftly ducks under and expertly chains into his own kick

0:20 Leon stops the superhuman's strike dead in it's tracks, despite Chris having momentum on his side (Chris is superhuman, by Marvel/DC standards at least. Capcom seems to have a different idea of what "peak human" is, which involves literally ripping bullet-soaking BOWs into pieces with your bare hands)

0:21 Chris killed a dinosaur with that same attack. Leon's pretty ok doe.

0:25 Counters Chris's rush

0:29 Reverses Chris's hold

0:32 despite being thrown across the room, Leon doesn't even falter and immediately withdraws his pistol

Leon is currently suffering from severe fatigue btw, both physical and emotional. Most people agree that if this fight were to continue, Leon would defeat Chris (H2H that is, guns are a different matter)

and Leon will have to get past the superior reach of the katana in order to get in close.

No problem, easy enough for someone who knows what they're doing. Leon's unnatural reaction time and superhuman perception will help him out here, having been displayed on numerous occasions (VS El Gigante, VS Saddler, VS Simmons, Leon is always highly acrobatic in his fights)

Pretty impresive at first glance. Let's break it down.

OK, the first two laser beams were stationary, meaning that Leon could predict their pattern and move through them accordingly. The third one springs up and with little prior notice Leon jumps through the lasers just right that all of them miss him, that's fair enough he didn't have enough time to get out of the way so he had to jump through it or die. The fourth time Leon does a backflip to avoid it immediately before it activates, OK fair enough that just means that he is hyper-aware at this point. The 5th time that same laser beam that he just dodged is now activated and it comes flying at him at extreme speed and he does another backflip so that he lands directly under the laser beams, he promptly uses a backwards handstand maneuver to get himself back on his feet. Finally he presses the unlock door button thinking that it is all over with, but then a hallway wide laser grid is coming at him, having no other choice Leon runs at the laser grid and runs back towards the wall to gain enough momentum to run up the wall and spring step his way off the wall and over the laser grid. Now having avoided all 6 attempts at his life Leon takes a brief rest in Saddler's throne that was oh so valuable to his plans.

Leon is super human for him to be able to pull that off, 1 in 7 billion is more like it. The reaction time and thinking speed necessary to calculate the trajectory of every individual laser, each moving faster and more erratic then the last, and mentally plan out the best way in which to contort his body so as to just barely miss them, then perfectly act that plan out in real life, unbelievable.

The scene switches to slow motion towards the end, but Leon himself seems to do nothing but speed up, showing once again how naturally capable he is when the time comes.

Point being, however quick Storm Shadow is, Leon's advanced perception will alot him enough time to see an attack coming, and plan out his counter accordingly. The fact that he's a strategic genius also helps with that.

Leon is good, but even you admit that h2h is not his specialty. In his fight with Hauser, he loses his knife at one point. What's to stop Storm Shadow from doing this?

His name is Krauser dammit. And h2h =/= blade combat. I was implying that if Leon was considered the greatest physical combatant on the planet, and it's confirmed that he's better with blades, imagine where that puts his knife skill. There's nothing to say Storm Shadow is anymore skilled than Leon,

And I'm confident Kennedy holds the strength advantage (his OBD profile even states his strength is superhuman) so I doubt SS will find disarming him easy.

He's also fought people like Wraith, who, in addition to being a 10-tonner with almost indestructible durability, can turn invisible.

Pff, Leon led TWO specialized T-003 Mr. X Tyrants on a merry-go-round chase across Russia with no weapons while carrying around Buddy's half dead corpse. To last until sunset against two of those beasts is incredible, each packing 30+ tons of strength, TRUE invulnerability by conventional means, and speed to catch a Licker by it's head from behind (Licker's weave through Machine Gun fire, so Mr. X would of been moving his hand at speeds exceeding bullets. Leon danced around Mr. X's strikes, and if the damn movie was online yet I'd show you)

Mr. X was already shown to run faster than Leon, so that's just a testimate to the agent's agility and tactical ability in order to remain one step ahead of the both of em.

(Full fight is like, a half hour long. We haven't even gotten to the part with the two mutated Tyrants that I mentioned, Leon is still fighting #1, the other two don't show up till later)

He can humiliate trained knife fighters with absolute ease, so why should Leon do any better?

'Cause he has better hair than that guy.

Storm Shadow is just as agile and has faster reactions, and his bladed skill is much greater than Leon's.

False on all accounts. Leon is more agile, Leon is faster combat-wise (matching Krauser, dancing around Mr. X, taking a Licker in CC, outpacing a dude who weaves through Chain Gun fire, avoiding every hit the Verdugo throws out,), and I'm pretty sure he has better reaction time. Skill isn't anything that can be so easily discerned; does parkouring through ship containers and humiliating a Rebel Militia Leader not keep up with dodging tazers and catching a knife?) Physicals will surely play the biggest factor in this match, where Leon is undoubtedly superior, considering a well aimed kick can make an enemies head explode and a giant lightning rod becomes a baseball bat.

#18 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

Forgot to tag you, my reply is above ^^

#19 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Ah, but the same applies in reverse; not a single hit managed to connect with Leon, did it?

Except she disarms him of his pistol, connects with an elbow 3 seconds in, and effectively throws him at 0:12, even if he does manage a nice midair recovery. Whereas he never made contact whatsoever, unless you count the time she blocked his strike rather than dodging it.

From a technical standpoint, Leon did far better. Svetlana was held on the defense the whole time, dodging and avoiding whereas Leon kept coming in and simply countered strikes, not dodged. Actually hurting her wasn't what Leon wanted to do, only subdue.

Seeing as he ambushed her with a gun, I wouldn't fault her for being on the defensive. And it doesn't seem like she was, seeing as she took plenty of shots and attempted holds herself. In addition to her actually landing anything at all.

Obviously the clip stops, but I should mention Leon dodges a hailstorm of bullets from two dozen guards immediately afterward.

I feel like I've already shown enough pure dodging to make this irrelevant against Storm Shadow. The guy dodges lasers.

Leon threw it a bit faster than a blur; Salazar's hand was already tracing whatever trap or button he was about to spring before Leon had even drawn the blade. Considering he threw it from across the room with pinpoint accuracy and without even aiming, it goes to show how well he can handle a knife.

This is so subjective I won't even bother to contradict it. The fact that Storm Shadow casually caught a blurred knife with so little effort that he was able to taunt the thrower tells me that a knife throw that might be slightly faster won't fare any better. It doesn't matter how accurate he is without aiming, if Leon throws his knife it won't hurt Tommy.

There's also the fact that he dodged the knife after the super-strong Verdugo threw it back at him at bullet speeds.

You like to throw around that "bullet speeds" phrase. Verdugo throws knives at bullet speeds, Krauser punches at bullet speeds...do you have any proof of this? None of the stuff you've posted looks even close to hypersonic from my perspective, and that's around the speed of a handgun bullet.

First: Leon obviously had the speed advantage. Compared to a guy that weaves through Harrier Jet Chain Gun Fire whilst fighting off a supersoldier army (probably tougher than avoiding pistol fire like SS did), I'd say that's pretty good for Leon.

It may not be a Harrier Jet, but this helicopter has two chain guns. Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes weave through it just fine. (Note: They're faking when they go down, as they're fine when they get back up.)

This brief scuffle is a great showing, besides the fact that Chris is a one-man army super commando who can give anyone a run for their money, there are specific details that should be pointed out.

Here are a couple of fights between Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes for comparison. Considering how fast and skilled Snake Eyes is,

these are pretty impressive feats. Important to note, when he was in the Red Costume, Snake Eyes was brainwashed into a morals-off killer, so he wasn't holding anything back.

Notice how he arrives just in time to throw Chris off, a millisecond later and Carla would have a bullet in her head.

I don't see how that's a speed feat, unless you're thinking that Leon specifically waited until the last possible moment to strike. Leon got there in time to save Carla, yes, but Chris just stood there for several seconds. He had plenty of opportunity to shoot Carla if the plot didn't stop him. The argument could even be made that the jolt of Leon tackling him was what pulled the trigger.

0:17 Chris attempts to withdraw his pistol, but Leon is fast enough to catch him by the wrist and literally shove it back in the holster

0:18 A second later and Chris is back on the offense, throwing a bone crushing punch - which Leon deftly ducks under and expertly chains into his own kick

Scan 1, Scan 5: SS leaps effortlessly over a sword-slash. Scan 3: SS ducks under an axe attack

Seeing as Snake Eyes has easily bullet-time speed, these are good showing from Storm Shadow.

0:21 Chris killed a dinosaur with that same attack. Leon's pretty ok doe.

Scan 6: SS just stands there and tanks a full-on kick to the face. He's unfazed enough to land a smashing elbow immediately after.

Despite wanting to stop him not hurt him, Storm Shadow still keeps up with Snake-Eyes, landing blows, blocking, dodging, showcasing speed and agility, the works. And in the last fight scene, where he actually intends to win, he pretty much dominates Snake Eyes the whole time.

Point being, however quick Storm Shadow is, Leon's advanced perception will alot him enough time to see an attack coming, and plan out his counter accordingly. The fact that he's a strategic genius also helps with that.

Storm Shadow has bullet-speed perceptions, seeing as I've shown him parrying multiple shots while carrying on a conversation. He can walk through a room being torn apart by machine gun fire without being fazed, so easily can he perceive bullets. So enhanced perception is nothing new.

And what is even going on in the second gif? All I see is Leon looking out a window. Okaaaaay...

Pff, Leon led TWO specialized T-003 Mr. X Tyrants on a merry-go-round chase across Russia with no weapons while carrying around Buddy's half dead corpse. To last until sunset against two of those beasts is incredible, each packing 30+ tons of strength, TRUE invulnerability by conventional means, and speed to catch a Licker by it's head from behind (Licker's weave through Machine Gun fire, so Mr. X would of been moving his hand at speeds exceeding bullets. Leon danced around Mr. X's strikes, and if the damn movie was online yet I'd show you)

Okay, I'll give you this one. If Leon does the smart thing, turns tail, and just runs away, then he can probably escape. With his vaunted tactical brilliance, he'd probably realize what a hopeless situation you'd forced him into.

and speed to catch a Licker by it's head from behind (Licker's weave through Machine Gun fire, so Mr. X would of been moving his hand at speeds exceeding bullets. Leon danced around Mr. X's strikes, and if the damn movie was online yet I'd show you)

Not a valid conclusion. Batman weaves through machine-gun fire, he can still be punched/grabbed from behind. He can also be shot or punched from the front. Even confirmed bullet-timers like Cassandra Cain or even Spider-Man can be tagged by things far slower than bullets. It's a decent feat for Mr. X, but certainly doesn't prove his hands move at hypersonic speeds. Does he make sonic booms when he grabs people? No.

False on all accounts. Leon is more agile,

Storm Shadow leaps and dances around bullets, lasers, and even Snake Eyes. Leon's laser grid thing is impressive, but Storm Shadow dodges gunfire with a file folder in his mouth, and doesn't even lose the papers.

Leon is faster combat-wise (matching Krauser, dancing around Mr. X, taking a Licker in CC, outpacing a dude who weaves through Chain Gun fire, avoiding every hit the Verdugo throws out,),

Storm Shadow hasn't faced as many superhuman opponents because of his universe, but he's never once struggled speedwise. He keeps up with and even outpaces Snake Eye in combat, and Snake Eyes not only blocks automatic fire with swords, but the guy ran down a freaking motorcycle. Peak Human. Right. He also has no trouble with Grenadiers, powerful robots which he's able to one-shot with his swords. Not bad at all.

And again, he weaves through chaingun fire and lasers and all that stuff.

and I'm pretty sure he has better reaction time.

In all of the Leon Kennedy debates I have seen, I've never seen anything to make me believe he can perceive and react to bullets after they're fired. I've seen a few claims made about dodging "bullet-speed" enemies, but I've never seen any proof of that, and you have a lot more warning of when someone's going to punch than when a bullet is going to be fired. But yet Storm Shadow can deflect multiple bullets fired rapidly at him. This, for me, is a definitive argument in Tommy's favor regarding reaction time.

Skill isn't anything that can be so easily discerned; does parkouring through ship containers and humiliating a Rebel Militia Leader not keep up with dodging tazers and catching a knife?)

One advantage for Storm Shadow in the skills debate is that his cannon fodder is trained, intelligent ninjas. While they may not have the physicals of many of the bio-engineered creatures Leon faces, for the most part Kennedy simply fights mindless beasts. However, they both have good showing against skilled opponents, and skill is hard to pin down. However, in addition to his showings against Snake Eyes, he's humiliated another skilled Ninja, Kamakura, and Shipwreck, one of the Joes, at the same time. He also knows nerve strikes, for an added bonus.

Physicals will surely play the biggest factor in this match, where Leon is undoubtedly superior, considering a well aimed kick can make an enemies head explode and a giant lightning rod becomes a baseball bat.

Leon probably has the strength advantage, but he also has a knife. With negligible leverage, his strength becomes far less of an issue. And Storm Shadow's advantage is his reflexes and perception. Leon's are good, but he has never shown the sort of perception Storm Shadow consistently demonstrates. So both have physical advantages. Leon's is largely irrelevant here, though, due to the battleground and the nature of his opponent.

#20 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

I always forget to make my rebuttals simple enough for you to counter. Do you want me to edit out some of my points so you can come up with a believable argument? Or are you ready to admit that Leon never had a prayer?

#21 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

I always forget to make my rebuttals simple enough for you to counter. Do you want me to edit out some of my points so you can come up with a believable argument? Or are you ready to admit that Leon never had a prayer?

I haven't even read your post yet lol. You just gun have'ta wait.

#22 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Zambuto.

#23 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

This is so subjective I won't even bother to contradict it. The fact that Storm Shadow casually caught a blurred knife with so little effort that he was able to taunt the thrower tells me that a knife throw that might be slightly faster won't fare any better. It doesn't matter how accurate he is without aiming, if Leon throws his knife it won't hurt Tommy.

I never implied he'd hurt Storm Shadow by throwing the knife, the clip was just an instance of Leon's perfect handling of the weapon to the point of tossing it across the room with pinpoint accuracy without even aiming. He did the same thing later in the game, freeing Ada from her binds by chucking his blade.

You like to throw around that "bullet speeds" phrase. Verdugo throws knives at bullet speeds, Krauser punches at bullet speeds...do you have any proof of this?

Krauser blitzes through bullets and runs faster than most humans can even perceive. The game literally has to slow down during CC encounters with him just to give the player a chance. And the Verdugo was even faster than him.

Now, a baseball player can throw a ball at 80MPH, yet I'd be surprised to see one move at 1/5 those speeds. Saying these attacks Leon dodges are bullet speed is an understatement.

None of the stuff you've posted looks even close to hypersonic from my perspective, and that's around the speed of a handgun bullet.

That's because we see it through Leon's filter, who's consistently been portrayed as seeing the world in slow motion when his blood gets pumping.

And handgun bullet is a good deal less than the speed of sound; let alone hypersonic which implies "massively beyond the speed of sound, at least 5 times"

Just YFI ;D

It may not be a Harrier Jet, but this helicopter has two chain guns. Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes weave through it just fine. (Note: They're faking when they go down, as they're fine when they get back up.)

Chris didn't need to pretend to fall down in order to get out of it, he was ok to just dodge everything.

Not a valid conclusion. Batman weaves through machine-gun fire, he can still be punched/grabbed from behind. He can also be shot or punched from the front. Even confirmed bullet-timers like Cassandra Cain or even Spider-Man can be tagged by things far slower than bullets. It's a decent feat for Mr. X, but certainly doesn't prove his hands move at hypersonic speeds. Does he make sonic booms when he grabs people? No.

Like I said Licker's weave through machine gun fire. After it's claw was already inches from his head, Mr. X heard it's screech, turned around and caught it. If it was a bullet the Licker would of dodged.

"Even confirmed bullet-timers like Cassandra Cain or even Spider-Man can be tagged by things far slower than bullets."

Except they can't doe. That's what being a bullet timer means.

Storm Shadow leaps and dances around bullets, lasers, and even Snake Eyes. Leon's laser grid thing is impressive, but Storm Shadow dodges gunfire with a file folder in his mouth, and doesn't even lose the papers.

Leon has outmaneuvered Jack Krauser in a CQC encounter. Usually, a dive would be a lot more practical then a backflip, but Leon does this crap so easily he's willing to go that extra mile just to land on his feet. He's acrobatic enough to dodge every single one of the Verdugo's strikes and engage a cave troll in a knife fight just for lulz.

6:30 the sound of the monster's tail actively piercing the ceiling is more than enough warning for Mr. Kennedy

6:40

7:30

7:35

8:15

8:25

0:55

2:00

Parkouring up a giant 100 foot tall bug monster and tossing a grenade up it's ass is something Storm Shadow might find difficulty in.

Leon is more agile, especially in active combat.

He also has no trouble with Grenadiers, powerful robots which he's able to one-shot with his swords. Not bad at all.

Leon has no trouble with Lickers, powerful bullet dodging BOWs who a small groups worth took on an entire military platoon. He's able to one-shot them with whatever weapon in his arsenal he feels like at the time. Not bad at all.

Recap-

Leon has stomped Ada Wong and defeated Jack Krauser. A drawn out battle between himself and Chris will end in the Agent's favor, and the entire planet has relied on this one man on multiple occasions. As the single greatest knife fighter in his entire universe, outdoing even Claire Redfield, he's of the upmost elite.

^ 1:20

This is so subjective I won't even bother to contradict it. The fact that Storm Shadow casually caught a blurred knife with so little effort that he was able to taunt the thrower tells me that a knife throw that might be slightly faster won't fare any better. It doesn't matter how accurate he is without aiming, if Leon throws his knife it won't hurt Tommy.

I never implied he'd hurt Storm Shadow by throwing the knife, the clip was just an instance of Leon's perfect handling of the weapon to the point of tossing it across the room with pinpoint accuracy without even aiming. He did the same thing later in the game, freeing Ada from her binds by chucking his blade.

You like to throw around that "bullet speeds" phrase. Verdugo throws knives at bullet speeds, Krauser punches at bullet speeds...do you have any proof of this?

Krauser blitzes through bullets and runs faster than most humans can even perceive. The game literally has to slow down during CC encounters with him just to give the player a chance. And the Verdugo was even faster than him.

Now, a baseball player can throw a ball at 80MPH, yet I'd be surprised to see one move at 1/5 those speeds. Saying these attacks Leon dodges are bullet speed is an understatement.

None of the stuff you've posted looks even close to hypersonic from my perspective, and that's around the speed of a handgun bullet.

That's because we see it through Leon's filter, who's consistently been portrayed as seeing the world in slow motion when his blood gets pumping.

And handgun bullet is a good deal less than the speed of sound; let alone hypersonic which implies "massively beyond the speed of sound, at least 5 times"

Just YFI ;D

It may not be a Harrier Jet, but this helicopter has two chain guns. Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes weave through it just fine. (Note: They're faking when they go down, as they're fine when they get back up.)

Chris didn't need to pretend to fall down in order to get out of it, he was ok to just dodge everything.

Not a valid conclusion. Batman weaves through machine-gun fire, he can still be punched/grabbed from behind. He can also be shot or punched from the front. Even confirmed bullet-timers like Cassandra Cain or even Spider-Man can be tagged by things far slower than bullets. It's a decent feat for Mr. X, but certainly doesn't prove his hands move at hypersonic speeds. Does he make sonic booms when he grabs people? No.

Like I said Licker's weave through machine gun fire. After it's claw was already inches from his head, Mr. X heard it's screech, turned around and caught it. If it was a bullet the Licker would of dodged.

"Even confirmed bullet-timers like Cassandra Cain or even Spider-Man can be tagged by things far slower than bullets."

Except they can't doe. That's what being a bullet timer means.

Storm Shadow leaps and dances around bullets, lasers, and even Snake Eyes. Leon's laser grid thing is impressive, but Storm Shadow dodges gunfire with a file folder in his mouth, and doesn't even lose the papers.

Leon has outmaneuvered Jack Krauser in a CQC encounter. Usually, a dive would be a lot more practical then a backflip, but Leon does this crap so easily he's willing to go that extra mile just to land on his feet. He's acrobatic enough to dodge every single one of the Verdugo's strikes and engage a cave troll in a knife fight just for lulz.

6:30 the sound of the monster's tail actively piercing the ceiling is more than enough warning for Mr. Kennedy

6:40

7:30

7:35

8:15

8:25

0:55

2:00

Parkouring up a giant 100 foot tall bug monster and tossing a grenade up it's ass is something Storm Shadow might find difficulty in.

Leon is more agile, especially in active combat.

He also has no trouble with Grenadiers, powerful robots which he's able to one-shot with his swords. Not bad at all.

Leon has no trouble with Lickers, powerful bullet dodging BOWs who a small groups worth took on an entire military platoon. He's able to one-shot them with whatever weapon in his arsenal he feels like at the time. Not bad at all.

Recap-

Leon has stomped Ada Wong and defeated Jack Krauser. A drawn out battle between himself and Chris will end in the Agent's favor, and the entire planet has relied on this one man on multiple occasions. As the single greatest knife fighter in his entire universe, outdoing even Claire Redfield, he's of the upmost elite.

^ 1:20

He's stated to be one of the single most capable combatants on the planet, and his genius IQ lends itself well to his sense of tactics (shooting a skywalk and rushing G rather than waste time and ammo fighting, defeating El Gigante by using the environment and his surroundings, taking advantage of Simmon's near immortality by tricking him into absorbing a zombie impale on a lightning rod, etc)

Physically, he has a major edge over Storm Shadow. Crushing locks and chains, physically overpowering various BOWs, knocking down a cell door with his foot, bodily tossing a full grown woman up and across entire rooms, and more. His endurance is top tier, with unlimited stamina and the ability to walk off hits that would demolish normal men. And of course we have speed - Storm Shadow dodges bullets; Leon's rarely done that. However, the characters he outmoves has. And that's better.

#24 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

Leon Kennedy vs Storm Shadow, ready for votes.

Had to save most of Leon's best feats for the next round. If you wanna see them I suggest you vote for me to advance ;)

#25 Posted by Corrindervice (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Snake Eyes could mutilate Chris, Leon and even Wesker at the same time. No one in RE except for Wesker has ever shown themselves to be a bullet timer, let alone Leon.

#26 Posted by jashro44 (25418 posts) - - Show Bio

I will come back to this.

Online
#27 Posted by Strafe Prower (11892 posts) - - Show Bio

Great debate guys!

#28 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

Great debate guys!

Thanks

#29 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

It's worth mentioning, I don't actually think Leon will win. Rather, I'm simply capable of making a case for him.

In tournaments, I'd rather enter with a character I like instead of a character that'll win. So when I eventually challenge Shawnbaby to Solid Snake and Big Boss vs Spider-Man (which I will), you'll all know that I don't actually believe in my odds :P

#30 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

It's worth mentioning, I don't actually think Leon will win. Rather, I'm simply capable of making a case for him.

In tournaments, I'd rather enter with a character I like instead of a character that'll win. So when I eventually challenge Shawnbaby to Solid Snake and Big Boss vs Spider-Man (which I will), you'll all know that I don't actually believe in my odds :P

Wait, we're voting already? I was going to tear your argument apart again. :(

#31 Posted by nick_hero22 (7264 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire

#32 Posted by nickzambuto (14931 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@nickzambuto said:

It's worth mentioning, I don't actually think Leon will win. Rather, I'm simply capable of making a case for him.

In tournaments, I'd rather enter with a character I like instead of a character that'll win. So when I eventually challenge Shawnbaby to Solid Snake and Big Boss vs Spider-Man (which I will), you'll all know that I don't actually believe in my odds :P

Wait, we're voting already? I was going to tear your argument apart again. :(

STFU.

@nick_hero22 said:

Esquire

GTFO.

#33 Posted by God_Spawn (38312 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire.

Moderator Online
#34 Posted by Saren (25082 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire.

Moderator
#35 Posted by Dernman (15738 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire

Online
#36 Posted by dondave (38893 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire

#37 Posted by jashro44 (25418 posts) - - Show Bio

esquire

Online