SW Beyond The Movies R1: TheVivas vs Juiceboks - [Finished]

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

TheVivas

  • Exar Kun (5) (Balanced)
  • Sora Bulq (3) (Balanced)
  • Daegen Lok (1) (Force)
  • Worror Dowmat (1) (Force)

vs.

Juiceboks

  • Darth Plagueis (5) (Balanced)
  • Xesh (3) (Balanced)
  • Darth Xanatos (2) (Saber)

Settings:

  • In character, morals on
  • Standard gear only
  • Fights are to the death, knockout or incapacitation

Location:

Teams start 30 feet apart
Teams start 30 feet apart

Good luck. You have a few weeks to debate before this goes to votes, where anyone can vote providing they go into a reasonable amount of detail for who they're voting for.

@thevivas@juiceboks

Avatar image for sy8000
Sy8000

37640

Forum Posts

24

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I didn't think Xanatos was a Sith.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for sy8000
Sy8000

37640

Forum Posts

24

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for sy8000
Sy8000

37640

Forum Posts

24

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@i_like_swords: Started an opener, it should be finished sometime tomorrow.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

#14  Edited By TheVivas

Team Members

Exar Kun

The juggernaut of my team, Exar will be the one charging in first and engaging the "juggernaut" of your team, which would be Plagueis. If by some chance he doesn't, he should have no problem beating Xesh or Thanatos, or even both of them at once. I'll go into a little more details about why he would win each of his would be fights:

vs Plagueis

  • · Comparable, if not better dueling ability
  • · Comparable, if not more Force power

vs Xesh

  • · Better in every category

vs Xanatos

  • · Better in every category

The only problem for Exar would be Plagueis, who isn't exactly rolling in feats himself. Due to his own levels of strength, speed, and skill, Exar will eventually wear him down through either his blade work or Force powers, and secure a win over the Muun Sith Lord.

Sora Bulq

While Exar is busying fighting Plagueis, that leaves either Xesh or Xanatos to fight Sora. Luckily for me, Sora is more skilled than both of them. In regards to Xesh, though, he has the edge in the form of lightning, since Sora has been KO'd by Dooku's own lightning, which is around the same level as Xesh's. The problem with that, however, is that Xesh has never started a fight off with lightning and Xesh is primarily a duelist first and Force user second. If Xesh engages Sora in a lightsaber duel, Sora would come out victorious rather quickly, due to the fact that he's more skilled than anyone Xesh has fought before and carries two lightsabers(a regular one and a shoto blade), something Xesh has never encountered before.

If Sora were to engage Xanatos, the fight would be more in Sora's favor, IMO. Unlike Xesh, Xanatos doesn't know Force Lightning(at least, that I'm aware of) and he doesn't have the skill feats to suggest he would come out on top against Sora. Like Xesh, I don't think Xanatos has fought dual blades before so that should also hinder him.

Daegen Lok

Daegen's strength lies in his Force abilities rather than his dueling skills, but that doesn't he isn't too shabby when it comes to that department. In his past, he served as a general for the Je'daii in the Despot War, defeated numerous Force-sensitive Flesh Raiders, dueled evenly with Skal'nas for a period, etc. He can hold his own in a lightsaber fight if need be, but his main goal will be to use Mind Tricks and Telepacthic attacks against your team. I'm not too shabby on Xanatos's TP resistance feats, so you'll have to bring some up for me. If he doesn't, then should Daegen fight him, Xanatos would be no more better off than this Je'daii:

Credit to ILS for the scans.

The most likely scenario would be Xesh fighting Daegen, since the two have history together. Although Xesh has proven himself superior in the past, the difference this time, and the key to my victory, lies with my last team member.

Worror Dowmat

An Ithorian Jedi Master, Worror Dowmat was active around Darth Bane's era. He served under Lord Hoth on Ruusan and played pivotal roles in the battles there and the battle between Darth's Bane and Zannah and a Jedi strike Team sent to combat. Worror doesn't carry a lightsaber because his role on the battlefield is support. He knows Battle Meditation and Healing techniques, so he'll hang back from the fighting and provide his team with support from his Battle Meditation. Here's and example of the effect his Battle meditation had on Valenthnye Farfalla:

It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.

Source: Rule of Two

The underlined part is the key to my team winning. If my guys weren't already even with yours before, they will be now under the effects of Battle Meditation. If they were already slightly stronger/quicker/more powerful, they would be even more now under the effects of Battle Meditation. With this ability: Exar's Force blasts would pack more power than before, he'll be quicker than before, and he'll fatigue less easily; Sora's bladework will be quicker than before, his TK will be more powerful, he'll fatigue less quickly; Daegen's Mind powers will be stronger than before, his speed will increase, he'll also fatigue less quickly; and so on. With the fight taking place in a desert, the combatants will need every advantage they can get to help them get a win. Luckily for me, I have a guy that gives them a pretty big advantage.

Key Points As To Why My Team Wins

  • Numbers advantage. Everyone can match up with members of your team, with Worror providing support in the rear.
  • Sora being more skilled than both Xesh and Xanatos.
  • Neither Xesh or Xanatos have fought dual blades before.
  • Worror's Battle Meditation amping my team's abilities.

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Avatar image for juiceboks
juiceboks

26044

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#17 juiceboks  Moderator

@thevivas Sorry bout the delay. Let's rev this up a little.

Loading Video...

I'll start with going over your assessments before getting into my own..

vs Plagueis

  • · Comparable, if not better dueling ability
  • · Comparable, if not more Force power

Yea I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with both of these assessments.

Dueling

Plagueis has mastered several styles courtesy of Tenebrous and was skilled enough to defeat another Sith (Venamis) who trained not only in his exact same fighting styles but to the point where he could counter everything Plagueis did. Despite all of these he considered lightsaber duels mundane and unnecessary, and thus more than likely rarely trained in it. Exar might be somewhat comparable, but he's certainly not on par let alone better.

Speed

This is perhaps the greatest advantage Plagueis holds over Exar Kun. His best feats involve making afterimages, so really nothing particularly noteworthy. Plagueis on the otherhand has moved so fast that he was a blur to 11-4D who can easily dodge blaster bolts, deflected blasterfire from an army of 200 droids, and engage in a duel that onlookers would mistake as forks of lightning across the area. Kun has absolutely nothing even remotely comparable.

Conclusion

Kun would be forced on the backfoot as soon as the duel starts, and would be quickly overwhelmed with his speed if he doesn't get any assistance. Their skill may be arguably similar, but Plagueis' blatant edge in combat speed would earn him a solid majority if they both stuck to lightsaber combat.

Now as far as force power goes..Plagueis most definitely has a very clear advantage here as well. If Exar is allowed his Cortosis Gauntlets, then force blast might be a problem. But his most powerful blasts required some charging up to pull off, time that Plagueis would not award him and something he could easily defend against either way.

TK

No contest here. Exar's best feat is pushing Sylvar. Plagueis has crumpled ceilings with so much force that he almost caught Tenebrous off guard, created stairwells out of stone to jump out of a grotto he wasn't normally able to, and practically atomized a person with a TK wave. A huge edge goes to Plagueis.

Lightning

Kun was stated to know lightning, but as far as I know he's never actually shown any use of it. Plagueis on the otherhand has shot out lightning so powerful than it can lift a person to a ceiling. Kun can try to block it with his lightsabers, but considering the fact that Plagueis has made his lightning expand across an entire landscape I highly doubt this will be a veritable option.

I don't believe anything else these two can do would come into play in a duel, so I'll leave them out for now.

Plagueis vs. Exar

No matter how you look at it..Kun isn't getting downed very quickly. Plagueis has him beat in practically every area, and by a large margin in most of them. Honestly I don't see why he couldn't just ragdoll Kun as soon as the fight starts, and considering Plagueis' disdain for lightsaber combat he may very well just do so. Moving on..

Xesh, the Force Hound

Here I'll entertain both notions of Xesh facing either Sora or Daegen Lok.

Vs Sora

I'll openly admit that Sora is a better duelist than Xesh, but that isn't to say Xesh can't hold his own in a strict lightsaber. For one he was considered the best Force Hound in the empire at the time keeping in mind that John Ostrander considered them analogous to Jedi in skill..

(Credit to ILS for this scan)

No Caption Provided

..and to show for his skill he's matched three Je'daii for an extended period of time while suffering from a concussion, slaughtered several flesh raiders at a time, and killed other Force Hounds without any effort. Sora of course has done better like holding his own against Mace Windu, but I still believe Xesh would be enough to give him a decent fight in a strict lightsaber duel. Fortunately for Xesh, this doesn't have to be a strict lightsaber duel.

Xesh has never started a fight off with lightning and Xesh is primarily a duelist first and Force user second

I would actually say he's just as likely to start off with lightning or TK as he is to duel him. He did it against Shae Coda, he did it against Sek'nos Rath, he did it against Trill, twice, and he even used his force lighting to fry several flesh raiders down to their skeletons instead of dueling them outright. And assuming he doesn't abuse his grossly superior Force mastery right off the bat, he could easily utilize it in the middle of a duel if he so chooses to. Really, Sora isn't coming out on top if Xesh decides to use his TK and/or lightning, which given his consistent displays he would certainly opt to.

Vs Daegen Lok

Not much to say here. Xesh has clearly shown his superiority over Daegen in everyway. If Xesh decides to matchup against his old friend, there's not much Daegen can do to keep himself alive.

Conclusion

Xesh is more than capable of fighting either duelist to his favor. He outstrips them in terms of force abilities to such an extent that I'd even consider his power to be on par if not slightly above Exar Kun's own.

Xanatos

I'll admit, the Dark Jedi is easily my weakest combatant, and I don't expect him to come out on top against either Sora or Daegan(the former is just too skilled to beat and the latter's use of force abilities too potent). I do however expect him to hold his own given his exceptional lightsaber skills which have allowed him to duel extensively against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn. He should be able to hold off whoever he matches up against long enough for Plagueis and Xesh to deal with their combatants

In regards to Battle Meditation

I have a few issues with your supposed strategy involving Dowmat.

1. While it's clear Dowmat is capable of amping his teammates with battle meditation, all we have to quantify said amp is a very vague description of him doing exactly what we already know battle meditation is capable of. There's no telling how much he would affect 3 force sensitives that have never experienced such an amp before, and I highly doubt it would make up for such a large disparity between say Plagueis' speed vs Exar Kun's for example.

2. Plagueis should easily take note of this as soon as the fight starts given how intelligent and knowledgeable he is in terms of Force application, and would most likely opt to either take Dowmat himself with his vastly superior offensive force abilities, or inform Xesh to let him do it himself. Basically, my team isn't gonna leave him alone to amp yours and they're more than powerful enough to produce widespread destruction with their force abilities that could easily take him out of the fight.

Final Conclusion

  • Plagueis is too fast and powerful for anyone on your team to deal with. Kun and Sora may be comparable to him in terms of skill, but they're vastly outstripped by his mastery of the force and dare I say would get annihilated even as a collective should he choose to abuse this advantage.
  • Xesh likewise vastly outclasses your whole team in offensive force abilities. The only comparable Force power lies in Kun's force blasts, but Xesh's own TK is comparable and he also has other abilities such as Mind Trick and Force Lightning to fall back on.
  • Your inclusion of a support character while wise in theory, is actually counterproductive given how relatively fragile he is and the immeasurable nature of battle meditation.
Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@juiceboks: ABOUT TIME JUICE.

I'll get a reply up soon. Nice to see you're alive. Lol

Avatar image for those_eyes
those_eyes

17291

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@i_like_swords: i thought you left the vine. Havent seen you in awhile. Tag for votes.

Avatar image for juiceboks
juiceboks

26044

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#20 juiceboks  Moderator

@thevivas Yea I had to read through Dawn of the Jedi to get a better grasp on Xesh' character, which took longer than I thought it would. Nevertheless I'm back and ready for anything.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

@juiceboks: @thevivas:

This Friday is the cut-off date for debating before I put your round to votes. When Friday hits, if you haven't already, you're only allowed to make one final post before we call it to votes. Preferably be done by Friday instead of waiting until then to finish.

Avatar image for masterkungfu
MasterKungFu

20773

Forum Posts

9757

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 11

#22  Edited By MasterKungFu

tag

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

@juiceboks:

Plagueis has mastered several styles courtesy of Tenebrous and was skilled enough to defeat another Sith (Venamis) who trained not only in his exact same fighting styles but to the point where he could counter everything Plagueis did. Despite all of these he considered lightsaber duels mundane and unnecessary, and thus more than likely rarely trained in it. Exar might be somewhat comparable, but he's certainly not on par let alone better.

There's no disputing that Plagueis is skilled, but Exar was a master swordsman in his own right:

Kun was a master of lightsaber combat and had even bested Master Vodo’s quarterstaff during a sparring practice.

Source: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

Consumed by pride and ambition, Jedi student Exar Kun had a dark place in his heart that even his vaunted master, Vodo-Siosk Baas, could not reach. An excellent student and a master swordsman, Exar Kun was fascinated with the powers of the ancient Sith Lords.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Credit to ILS.

He has other accolades such as being the greatest duelist trained by Vodo-Siosk Baas, achieving unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat, mastery over dual bladed fighting, etc. The main thing that's going to be Plagueis' downfall is Exar's actual lightsaber:

No Caption Provided

Some unique objects are invariably associated with their remarkable owners. The unusual double-bladed lightsaber of the fallen Jedi Exar Kun is one such artifact. This weapon as distinctive and dangerous as its builder, the Dark Lord of the Sith, who initiated the great Sith War and nearly toppled the Old Republic.

[...]

As the battle against the Jedi escalated, Kun altered his normal lightsaber into a more deadly and dangerous weapon. Kun added a second emitter matrix on the opposite end of the handgrip, allowing him to release two blue-white blades simultaneously. The dark Jedi wielded the saber much as he would a quarterstaff, using one blade to block incoming attacks, then quickly spinning the handgrip to use the second blade to strike a killing blow against his opponent.

Customized controls allowed him to adjust each blade's length from half a meter to one and a half meters. Panels controlled each blade's intensity: at its highest setting, a blade was like any other lightsaber, with the ability to cut through dense materials such as armor plating and durasteel with virtually no resistance. At the lowest power setting, a blade became a simple shaft of light, delivering no damage and providing no resistance against incoming lightsaber attacks. By abruptly shortening a blade or dropping it to the lowest power setting, Kun tricked his opponents into overextending themselves during attacks, giving him an opportunity for a deadly counterstrike. By coupling these tactics with his Force abilities to predict the actions of his opponents, Kun became virtually unstoppable in combat.

- The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

Sure, Plagueis knows about double-bladed lightsabers, but has he ever fought against one? Has he ever had to defend against a lightsaber than can adjust it's length and extra half meter? Has he ever fought someone who can shorten their blade or drop it to its lowest power setting to throw him off? Has he ever had to defend against someone who can start the fight off with a regular blade, then activate a second one? The answer to all of these is no.

Due to his knowledge, Plagueis shouldn't be that surprised when facing Exar's lightsaber, but not being surprised seeing a weapon isn't the same as being prepared to fight it. Take Darth Bane when he dueled Kas'im as an example. Bane had never faced Jar'kai dueling before, and was caught completely off-guard and would've ended up losing that fight had he not resorted to win via other means. Another example would be Luke in his first match against Lumiya. He had never encountered a lightwhip before, and because of his unfamiliarity with said weapon, he ended up losing the duel. Plagueis knows that Exar has a double-bladed lightsaber, but that doesn't necessarily mean he knows how to defend against it, or that he has ever fought against one.

On top of that, the ability to adjust your blade's length and width is a highly deceptive tactic that's effective against unwary opponents:

Lightsabers with dual-phase focusing crystals can be adjusted to variable lengths and widths, granting a deceptive and highly effective tactic against unwary opponents.

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

On top of adjusting his blade an extra half meter, Exar can also lower the power setting of his lightsaber to the point that another lightsaber blade would pass through it harmlessly. If Exar gets caught on the defensive, he can fall back to this strategy:

At the lowest power setting, a blade became a simple shaft of light, delivering no damage and providing no resistance against incoming lightsaber attacks. By abruptly shortening a blade or dropping it to the lowest power setting, Kun tricked his opponents into overextending themselves during attacks, giving him an opportunity for a deadly counterstrike.

Source: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

To further drive the point in, Plagueis shouldn't have had to train to fight a double-bladed lightsaber, as the Jedi discouraged the making and training of such a weapon:

Because the singular purpose of a double-bladed lightsaber is to enable its wielder to make more effective kills, the Jedi have long regarded it as an offensive weapon, and Jedi students are discouraged from attempting to create or train with one.

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Another thing to consider is Kun's massive strength. From my knowledge, Plagueis hasn't fought anyone with strength feats on par with Exar(breaking his master's Force-imbued staff twice even after it was said to be stronger than a lightsaber, having his lightsaber clashes heard for kilometers, breaking down a Mandalorian iron, smashing a Holocron with his bare hands, etc.).

All these factors I've laid out above, coupled with the fact that Kun specializes in Niman, the form where one can incorporate Force based attacks into your lightsaber sequences easier(Force blasts for example), means Plagueis isn't coming out on top in their duel.

This is perhaps the greatest advantage Plagueis holds over Exar Kun. His best feats involve making afterimages, so really nothing particularly noteworthy. Plagueis on the otherhand has moved so fast that he was a blur to 11-4D who can easily dodge blaster bolts, deflected blasterfire from an army of 200 droids, and engage in a duel that onlookers would mistake as forks of lightning across the area. Kun has absolutely nothing even remotely comparable.

There's only one feat in here that you mentioned that isn't a travel/movement speed feat(the blaster deflecting feat, and not to mention he had Sidious helping him with that), and most of his traveling speed will be hindered by the desert our teams are fighting in. And Plagueis doesn't have the advantage of a forest with trees and other footholds to jump off of and run on to create those "lightning speeds" here. Just sand.

For an example of Battle Meditation-enhanced speed, here's Raskta's speed feats while under the effects of Battle Meditation.

Described as being everywhere at once:

She seemed to be everywhere at once----in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes.

Intercepts Darth Ban'es lightning(which is also amped by the Orbalisks and the dark side nexus he was on) and creates figure eights out of her lightsabers:

Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

Source: Rule of Two

Here, courtesy to Battle Meditation, Valenthyne Farfalla reacts to Darth Bane's curved hilt lightsaber handle and alters his block so that his arm wouldn't get cut off from sliding off of Bane's blade. He reacted to this in a fraction of a second:

"The handle!' Raskta gasped as she scrambled to her feet.

The warning caused Farfalla to notice the hook-handled lightsaber of his enemy, and the unusual grip it required. This would alter the nature of his attacks, causing them to come in from odd and unfamiliar angles. In the regimented and hyperprecise world of Jedi-Sith lightsaber duels, it transformed his style into something unique and unexpected.

Valenthyne recognized, processed, and reacted to this information in a fraction of a second, allowing him to adjust his own weapon's course just enough to block a strike that otherwise would have slipped along the edge of his blade and taken his arm off at the elbow.

Source: Rule of Two

Exar should be fine when it comes to speed.

Kun would be forced on the backfoot as soon as the duel starts, and would be quickly overwhelmed with his speed if he doesn't get any assistance. Their skill may be arguably similar, but Plagueis' blatant edge in combat speed would earn him a solid majority if they both stuck to lightsaber combat.

All you've shown is his edge in travel speed(moving in a blur, moving faster than a droid can react). His speed will be slowed down by the sand in which we are fighting, whereas Exar gets a speed boost from Battle Meditation. Also, Plaguies has no knowledge/experience with Exar's unique double-bladed lightsaber.

If Exar is allowed his Cortosis Gauntlets, then force blast might be a problem.

He's allowed his Sith gantlets, yes.

But his most powerful blasts required some charging up to pull off, time that Plagueis would not award him and something he could easily defend against either way.

He seemed to do this rather easily:

No contest here. Exar's best feat is pushing Sylvar. Plagueis has crumpled ceilings with so much force that he almost caught Tenebrous off guard, created stairwells out of stone to jump out of a grotto he wasn't normally able to, and practically atomized a person with a TK wave. A huge edge goes to Plagueis.

While all that may be true, Plagueis has never opted to abuse his TK in a lightsaber fight, especially against an opponent on Kun's level.

Plagueis on the otherhand has shot out lightning so powerful than it can lift a person to a ceiling. Kun can try to block it with his lightsabers, but considering the fact that Plagueis has made his lightning expand across an entire landscape I highly doubt this will be a veritable option.

Or Kun can use Energy Resistance, like he likely used against Aleema's magic blast. Aleema was able to reduce a man to ashes after only a few months of training:

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I don't believe anything else these two can do would come into play in a duel, so I'll leave them out for now.

I can agree with that.

Honestly I don't see why he couldn't just ragdoll Kun as soon as the fight starts, and considering Plagueis' disdain for lightsaber combat he may very well just do so.

He's never done so in any of his lightsaber duels, so I hardly think he'll start now.

I still believe Xesh would be enough to give him a decent fight in a strict lightsaber duel.

On top of being more skilled, Sora uses two lightsabers, his regular one and a shoto blade. I see the duel going more or less the same way Bane vs Kas'im went, with Sora coming out on top. However, I doubt Xesh will go after Sora anyway.

He did it against Shae Coda, he did it against Sek'nos Rath, he did it against Trill, twice, and he even used his force lighting to fry several flesh raiders down to their skeletons instead of dueling them outright

Shae? I only remember him firing off a weak blast when they weren't fighting all out.

He did so against Sek'nos, however he didn't even have his Forcesaber with him at the time(IIRC).

I remember him using TK against Trill, not lightning.

And for the Flesh Raiders, Xesh used to lead them into battle. He knew how formidable they were, and he knew they needed to be killed.

No Caption Provided

All of these instances have one thing in common: they were all against enemies he's already encountered before or had history with, not a random enemy. When he engaged the three Jeedai journeyers, he only used lightning once, and that was towards the end of the duel. If lightning was his go to move and not his forcesaber, he would have started off with it. He also had a concussion and had just been in a shipcrash, so it would have made more sense for him to use lightning rather than engage them in a duel. However, he jumped straight into a duel. The same with his master, Skal'nas. He never used lightning once in their duel. So all in all, I don't see Xesh starting off with lightning.

And assuming he doesn't abuse his grossly superior Force mastery right off the bat, he could easily utilize it in the middle of a duel if he so chooses to. Really, Sora isn't coming out on top if Xesh decides to use his TK and/or lightning, which given his consistent displays he would certainly opt to.

He's never opted to abuse his Force powers. He's only dominated Trill with TK because he has history with her and knows he can, but other than that, mostly all of his direct TK attacks have been environmental based, outside of his TK shoves against Tasha Ryo, Shae Koda, and a Flesh Raider. Everything else, like using spikes as javelins, causing a mini earthquake, and flinging debris at his opponents have all been courtesy of the environment. He only has sand to work with here, so I don't see him opting to use his TK, and even if he does, all it would do is push Sora back.

If anything, Sora is more likely to use his TK:

Not much to say here. Xesh has clearly shown his superiority over Daegen in everyway. If Xesh decides to matchup against his old friend, there's not much Daegen can do to keep himself alive.

Daegen should be able to hold his own until Sora can deal with Xanatos, especially with Battle Meditation.

Xesh is more than capable of fighting either duelist to his favor. He outstrips them in terms of force abilities to such an extent that I'd even consider his power to be on par if not slightly above Exar Kun's own.

Slow down there, Juice. Lol. Slightly above Exar? The guy who has all these accolades?

Exar Kun was the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, from his lineage, up to and of his time.

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

In the final, climactic issue of this landmark series, two renegade Jedi, Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, clash in mortal combat. One will be awarded the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, the most feared and powerful force in the galaxy; the other may be awarded a shallow grave.

Source: Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

Kun is among the most powerful Sith Lords in all of history.

Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt.

Source: Behind the Threat: The Sith, Part 3: Design

Kun is once again stated to be one of the most powerful Sith Lords.

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side. Over the millennia, many creatures have been broken, twisted, and rebuilt by this evil power.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Xesh definitely is strong, stronger in the Force than both Sora and Daegen, but his battle plan of "forcesaber first, Force second" will be his undoing in this battle.

I'll admit, the Dark Jedi is easily my weakest combatant, and I don't expect him to come out on top against either Sora or Daegan(the former is just too skilled to beat and the latter's use of force abilities too potent). I do however expect him to hold his own given his exceptional lightsaber skills which have allowed him to duel extensively against Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn. He should be able to hold off whoever he matches up against long enough for Plagueis and Xesh to deal with their combatants

From what I've seen of his respect thread, it seemed he had certain advantages in each of the times he fought both of them simultaneously(retreating and then fighting them in the dark, having a third party come interrupt the battle, etc.) and he seemed to rely a lot on his environment(again, this is all what I got from his respect thread on here.) I didn't really see anything that would allow him to hold off Sora, stated to be one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi Order had ever known, mastered classical and experimental techniques, gave Mace Windu some trouble, and helped with the making of Vaapad.

While it's clear Dowmat is capable of amping his teammates with battle meditation, all we have to quantify said amp is a very vague description of him doing exactly what we already know battle meditation is capable of. There's no telling how much he would affect 3 force sensitives that have never experienced such an amp before, and I highly doubt it would make up for such a large disparity between say Plagueis' speed vs Exar Kun's for example.

Worror's Battle Meditation allowed Valenthyne Farfalla, a Jedi who should be nowhere near Exar Kun in power, to catch Darth Bane in a stasis field(for a brief time). Darth Bane was being amped by his Orbalisks as well as the dark side nexus they were fighting on:

Farfalla released the power he'd been gathering in a single concentrated burst. Bane was suddenly encased in a shimmering stasis field of light-side energy, freezing him where he stood.

Source: Rule of Two

Bane broke out of that hold soon after, but if Farfalla charging up can catch Darth Bane in a stasis field while Bane had two major amps to Farfalla's one, I see no reason why Exar couldn't accomplish the same thing on Plagueis. Exar is leagues stronger than Farfalla and knows Force Stun:

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

I've already given an example of speed above, and just to reiterate, both of our teams will be slower than normal due to fighting in the sand, but my team will have that effect cancelled out by Worror's ability.

Plagueis should easily take note of this as soon as the fight starts given how intelligent and knowledgeable he is in terms of Force application, and would most likely opt to either take Dowmat himself with his vastly superior offensive force abilities, or inform Xesh to let him do it himself. Basically, my team isn't gonna leave him alone to amp yours and they're more than powerful enough to produce widespread destruction with their force abilities that could easily take him out of the fight.

That's the beauty of numbers advantage, my friend. Should either Plaguies or Xesh try to take out Worror, they leave themselves open for attack. Besides, if I'm not mistaken, both of our teams start of facing each other. With that layout, your guys would either have to go through/around my team, which isn;t likely, or blast their way through with Force lightning, which is also unlikely.

  • Plagueis is too fast and powerful for anyone on your team to deal with. Kun and Sora may be comparable to him in terms of skill, but they're vastly outstripped by his mastery of the force and dare I say would get annihilated even as a collective should he choose to abuse this advantage.

Already responded to these points above.

  • Xesh likewise vastly outclasses your whole team in offensive force abilities. The only comparable Force power lies in Kun's force blasts, but Xesh's own TK is comparable and he also has other abilities such as Mind Trick and Force Lightning to fall back on.

I don't see Xesh outclassing them all, tbh. The only thing he outclasses them in is Lightning and maybe raw power, but his TK definitely isn't comparable to a Force blast. Kun's Force blasts killed a huge Sith Wyrm, destroyed parts of the Massassi Temple, casually KO'd Aleema, and destroyed Freedon Nadd's spirit.

  • Your inclusion of a support character while wise in theory, is actually counterproductive given how relatively fragile he is and the immeasurable nature of battle meditation.

I don't see it as counterproductive really. His Battle Mediation is used specifically for small engagements, which is perfect for this. Here's some background information of the battles that took place on Russan:

The Battle of Ruusan, the notorious conflict in which Jedi recruited novice Force-sensitive youths to battle the Sith, was a series of seven ground battles, and may have been the bloodiest confrontation between Jedi and Sith in history.

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential guide to the Force

Hundreds of years ago, a Jedi named Kaan turned away from the light and formed the Brotherhood of Darkness. The Brotherhood used the dark side of the Force to build an empire, and they were well on their toward expanding it when an army was raised to oppose them.

The army of opposition consisted of beings from many species and planets, representing all walks of life. But they had one thing in common. They were Jedi.

The two sides came together on a remote and little known world. Salvos of pure energy were exchanged, storms raged across the land, and lightning flashed from the skies. Entire cities were destroyed, a species was pushed to the edge of extinction, and spirits separated from their bodies.

Finally, after days of mortal combat, the Brotherhood was defeated.

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Through most of these battles, which were described as probably the bloodiest between Jedi and Sith forces in history, Worror's Battle Meditation had helped the Jedi to victory:

He had been one of General Hoth's advisers on Ruusan, and a key to victory in many battles, even though he didn't even carry a lightsaber.

Source: Rule of Two

Why my team still wins

  • Plagueis' unfamiliraity with Exar's lightsaber and its functions spells victory for Exar, though that would be the longest fight.
  • Xanatos isn't skilled or powerful enough to beat anyone on my team.
  • Worror's Battle Meditation grants amps to my team's power, speed, strength, and mind, whereas yours gets the negative effects of said technique:
Through their study of the Force, ancient Jedi learned to influence battles by envisioning a desired outcome: opposing factions would find themselves compelled to lower their weapons, or one side would be given courage and strength while the other was sapped of its will to fight. Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

You're up again @juiceboks

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

In case it wasn't obvious, ILS gets credit for all the Exar scans and quotes.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

@juiceboks Giving you about 40 minutes to make a closing argument (or let me know you're making one), or I'm gonna open this to votes. Or you can call it for votes now if you want.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

@thevivas: @juiceboks Putting this to votes.

@darthmanhunter@jacthripper@higorm@cosmicallyaware1@darthant66@dedmanwalkin@thenewbluebeetle007@aurbere

- Tagged for votes at request.

@burnface@juiceboks@laflux@shootingnova@wollfmyth209@sirfizzwhizz@banthabot@draukin@playa1@dccomicsrule2011@jkbart@thevivas@selenial

- Participants

You guys and anyone else who wants to can vote on this match, providing:

  • You are impartial
  • You vote based solely on the content of the thread from the two debaters, without considering your own knowledge/views on the characters
  • You give at least a sentence or two explaining why you voted for the user of your choice

Vote in your own time, thanks for reading.

Avatar image for shootingnova
ShootingNova

25785

Forum Posts

313

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

#27  Edited By ShootingNova

Vivas wins. I may disagree with some of the points he's raised, but he evidently spent more time and effort constructing his argument and taking pains to discuss the individual elements of the fight in great detail.

Avatar image for caseiden
Caseiden

424

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Voting for @thevivas

The reasons are this. Vivas arguments were very larger. I don't mean number of text. I mean content. Vivas provided great analysis on any potential side of fight. Vivas countered any argument. When Vivas was countering arguments, he refered with precision what he counters. He break down every argument by Juiceboks with precision. Juiceboks rebuttals - they okay, but "general". Simple and about everything. Vivas give breakdown for every part with full logic and clear reference.

Thanks for reading!

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
WollfMyth209

17626

Forum Posts

3513

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

I'm voting for @thevivas . While I do disagree with some statements(like Kun>Plagueis), he presented his team better. Right from the start, he organized his posts well and used solid examples and proof, with a greater addition of scans and quotes.

Avatar image for aurbere
Aurbere

172

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I'm going to vote for @thevivas for this one. In general, his arguments were more solid and he did a better job of countering the points @juiceboks presented. In addition, he used much more evidence to support his claims and arguments. So, for me, Vivas presented his team in a much better fashion. He gets my vote.

Avatar image for juiceboks
juiceboks

26044

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#31 juiceboks  Moderator

Kinda unfair to judge a debaters performance given only one post..regardless it's a rather decisive win for thevivas.

Avatar image for playa1
PLAYA1

456

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Kinda unfair to judge a debaters performance given only one post..regardless it's a rather decisive win for thevivas.

Pretty much. As it stands, Vivas was more thorough, but as your only post as an opener you hadn't the chance to refute some of his points which you might have found flaws in.

Avatar image for jkbart
JKBart

633

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#33  Edited By JKBart

My vote definitely goes to @thevivas. As much as I know the debate had much potential left, Juiceboks still had the second post in it, and it is already a place to make a potentially more convincing argument than the other party - perhaps I am wrong here of course, seeing as it was simply standard for me, as I almost always responded as the second, and already started including my opponent's line of thought, and I never even saw how I can potentially make the second post without trying to already make it a more solid line of thought than in case of my opponent.

One of the first things that really convince me to vote for Vivas is that he constructed arguments that stood to opposition with things usually saw as general consensus on these boards, and yet made them convincing, legitimate, and never reaching too far, basing that on solid analysis and comparison. I was the one that defended Plagueis against TPM Sidious in a CaV myself, and perhaps that's why I find Vivas's arguments against him more impressive, because I was actually surprised they were well-built and convincing, despite my disagreement.

Vivas also provided tons of intriguing, fresh thoughts, many good points on Plagueis's potential experiences, on the sole tactics of those characters, their standard mentality, their fighting styles, everything focused on how do they operate, not just comparing different areas, but the characters themselves, with intriguing points on things like their styles and lightsabers, elevated to really meaningful parts defining their whole fighting ethos and the manner of whole potential clash between characters. He didn't spam the thread with useless number of quotes and scans, operating rather on the elements behind the curtain of the feats and the character's lives, like in terms of Plagueis's training, and some general displays of logic of how the fighting itself works, including the terrain, including how one attunes to something they first encounter, etc. He blended all of that into one solid analysis, mixing those elements of characters, their fighting methods, their experiences, into solid, linear tangents on all of the characters, including any area possible. Vivas simply did a great job and proved insanely good logic behind his thinking, going with wide array of elements, aligning them perfectly into already mentioned solid, linear assumptions.

Really great job, full respect from me Vivas.

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Avatar image for thevivas
TheVivas

21096

Forum Posts

58734

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Kinda unfair to judge a debaters performance given only one post..regardless it's a rather decisive win for thevivas.

Let's have a debate one of these days where we don't have to worry about time limits, Juice. I still gotta pay you back for the "Sound 5 vs CP9" debate(I'm not gonna count this one). Lol

Avatar image for juiceboks
juiceboks

26044

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#36 juiceboks  Moderator

@thevivas: I will definitely take you up on that. I'm glad you didn't count this one, as I would have most certainly done the same if the tables were turned. Anytime you're game to throw down for keeps I'm ready.

Avatar image for deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e
deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

26473

Forum Posts

2126

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

@juiceboks: @thevivas: I think this is pretty unanimous... I'll bump this now and leave it up for a while but I Vivas is more than likely going through. Definitely interested in a CaV between you guys though.