SW Beyond The Movies R1: PLAYA1 vs SirFizzWhizz - [Finished]

PLAYA1

• Darth Tenebrous (5) (Balanced)
• Darth Bane (DOE) (3) (Balanced)
• Darth Zannah (2) (Force)

vs.

SirFizzWhizz

• Cade Skywalker (4) (Balanced)
• Asajj Ventress (4) (Balanced)
• Quinlan Vos (2) (Balanced)

Settings:

• In character, morals on
• Standard gear only
• Fights are to the death, knockout or incapacitation

Location:

Good luck. You have a few weeks to debate before this goes to votes, where anyone can vote providing they go into a reasonable amount of detail for who they're voting for.

@playa1@sirfizzwhizz

@sirfizzwhizz You start.

@playa1: I will start this when I get home.

@sirfizzwhizz: Sounds good.

@playa1: Ok lets start off.

I feel your using some hard to argue for Sith, meanwhile I have some well establish Force users. While yours are Sith, all mine had touch the Darkside heavily as well the light side, except for Ventress.

Lets start off with some basic Bios.

"I get it now, everything that's happened all my life… You shaped me to do this. Doesn't matter if I'm a Jedi or not.. Or if I'm a Skywalker or not. Everyone has a destiny. This one is mine. I can feel it in my gut. So, me and Krayt… One final round. Never expected to get old. Never figured to die in bed. I got a job to do -- Even if it's my last." - Cade Skywalker

Cade Skywalker

Cade Skywalker, son of Kol Skywalker, grandson of Luke Skywalker, and great grandson of Ankain Skywalker. Cade Skywalker was a teenage Jedi Padawan who forsake his Jedi beliefs after Darth Krayt sent his Sith to kill all the Jedi on Ossus. He nearly died in the battle, witness his father's death, and touched the Dark Side heavy that day. Content with death, he was found by Pirates, and raised himself to be one. Cade for seven years ran around the Galaxy as a successful Bounty Hunter, never using the Force, and even using Death Stick to keep from feeling the Force. During this time he learn alot of flying, hand to hand fighting, and blasters. He could not escape hi destiny however, and was force to spend a mere 2 weeks re learning some of his Jedi training to fight Darth Krayt. He even became a Sith for a time under Krayt, training in the ways of Sith for a week straight. During this very short re training period, Skywalker showed a huge connection to the force, and the Spirits of both Luke and Kol Skywalker shared many secrets of the force with Cade in his adventures. Cade is unique in the fact he does not approve of Jedi or Sith. Walking a fine line on the light and dark side of the force.

"I am fear. I am the queen of a blood-soaked planet and an architect of genocide. I have helped to crack the galaxy in half with this war and conquered every enemy I have ever faced—including death. All except for you." - Asajj Ventress

Asajj Ventress was a powerful dark force assassin during he Clone Wars. Used by Dooku to carry out missions of sabotage, and assassination on his behalf. While never officially considered a true Sith, she was a avid Dark Force user who started off as a Jedi Padawan. When her master died in front of her, she became full of hate, and was on the path of the Dark Side since. She was also a Dathomir Witch, and had powerful connections to the Dark Side through that before being picked up for a Jedi. In the end her master abandon her several times, and she wandered her own path as a Bounty Hunter with a less evil view of the Galaxy.

"I am not part of the dark—simply deeper in the shadows." - Quinlan Vos

Quinlon is a well known Jedi with a unique role, and ability in the Order during the time of the Clone Wars. He has the very refine and rare talent of psychometry, the ability to read images from objects. A gift that made Vos become the infamous double agent at the time. His main job in the order was in infiltrate criminal, or separatist circles, and provide info from there. He was also used to track down secretes or targets with his gift. As such he ventured dangerously close to the Dark Side, and crossed a few times with it. In the end he always pulled through as a Jedi, and showed much promise as a duelist, and force user during the war. He was a survivor of Order 66, and did raise a son.

Now thats out of the way, lets discuss battles.

Cade Skywalker or even Ventress should match Teneborus in a duel alone. I also think Vos is more than adept at handling Zannah, or dueling with even Bane for a time. As shown, all my characters are very skilled force users, and accomplish duelist. They have a variety of force abilities at hand, and more martial knowledge, and feats to win against yours for the most part.

I am more curious what feats you can bring up to counter my teams own, but we will see when that comes. For now I see Cade more than likely taking on the Sith Lord Tenebrous, I see Ventress greatly relishing to take on the infamous Bane, and vos will have no issue in character dueling with a pretty lady.

Overall your team has some benefit of Bane and Zannah having great teamwork, I can say the same for all my characters who shown time and again to work with Jedi or Sith at the drop of a dime in well order fashion. Big issue for your team in Teneborus, who is not much a team player really, and was very selfish even with his own apprentice. Add to my teams benefit, Vos and Ventress knew of the other, and both trained under Dooku in the same war, even though not together. They still would likely work well together, and have some good synchronicity.

@sirfizzwhizz: Can't believe my post was eaten...

I feel your using some hard to argue for Sith, meanwhile I have some well establish Force users.

Don't worry, I got it.

Cade Skywalker or even Ventress should match Teneborus in a duel alone.

Tenebrous*.

And no. Tenebrous trained Venamis to the extent that Venamis not only was an expert in Plagueis' style [confirming Tenebrous' mastery of at least one form] but also to the extent that Venamis succesfully mixed forms, ambidextrously switching up his lightsaber between his own hands [confirming Tenebrous' mastery of multiple forms; adding that Tenebrous enjoyed lightsaber duels himsef definitely makes it possible that his preferred form was Juyo, a form requiring high-end mastery of multiple forms (Fightsaber)]. Not to mention that Tenebrous was almost certainly as skilled as Plagueis with a lightsaber, considering their relatively equalness at the time of Tenebrous' death, the fact that Tenebrous both enjoyed lightsaber duels more than Plagueis [who found them to be ''tedious affairs''] and that he himself pronounced Plagueis ''a master of the art'' [of lightsaber dueling], which would have been foolish and naive had he not been as or more skilled than Plagueis. Plagueis' own dueling abilities exceeds Cade's, Ventress' and Vos', as adapting the way he did against Venamis, who had complete knowledge of Plagueis' style and thereby an inherent advantage, and then beating him demonstrates tremendous lightsaber skill which Tenebrous then would share, based on the above. Add to that Tenebrous considerable speed [running at similar speeds as Plagueis, who, during his fight with Venamis, was conjuring thick enough afterglows that it would look like lightning bolts flashing through the forest they were fighting in] and his love for dueling, he'll definitely be the one to instigate the attacks, always keeping up the offense, eventually outpacing, outmaneuvering and outskilling whoever he's facing.

I also think Vos is more than adept at handling Zannah, or dueling with even Bane for a time.

Vos may or may not be better than Zannah, but her defensive stance will definitely take time to penetrate. As for Bane? Besides also possessing knowledge of more than one form, he's as quick, clever and aggressive with a lightsaber as Vos, and if he uses the Force, then it could have fatal results [telekinetically ravaging campsites and scorching stone with lightning, as examples].

As shown, all my characters are very skilled force users, and accomplish duelist.

Where? You have only posted irrelevant bios, unless raising a child demands considerable Force mastery or lightsaber ability [?].

They have a variety of force abilities at hand

Bane's knowledge of the Force and his versatility in it probably exceeds Ventress' and Vos', and perhaps Zannah's does too. Tenebrous is considerably more knowledgable and powerful than either Jedi of your team - his status as one of the last Sith in the Banite line grants him the position of one of the most knowledgable Sith in the mythos, and his few but impressive feats back it up [defending himself against a huge fireball that was created as the result of an exploded mine with a Force barrier, telekinetically supporting parts of a ceiling heavy enough to crush his starship with only moderate effort, developing his own maxi-chlorians which he used to shortly possess Plagueis' body without Plagueis knowing it, despite Plagueis being absolutely devoted to the study of midi-chlorians and the relation between life and death and immortality itself], etc.

and more martial knowledge

Tenebrous has more martial knowledge than your entire team, unless you have proof for or can infer that they are high-end masters of multiple forms with the ability to switch them up and mix them mid-fight.

For now I see Cade more than likely taking on the Sith Lord Tenebrous, I see Ventress greatly relishing to take on the infamous Bane, and vos will have no issue in character dueling with a pretty lady.

What is this based on? If it stood to me then Tenebrous would face Ventress and Vos alone simultaneously while Bane took on Cade and Zannah prepped some sorcery in the back.

Big issue for your team in Teneborus, who is not much a team player really, and was very selfish even with his own apprentice

Tenebrous isn't an issue, he's my heavy-hitter. And he is selfish, yes, but so what? So are all Sith. Being selfish doesn't mean he won't help his team win, that's ridiculous.

Add to my teams benefit, Vos and Ventress knew of the other, and both trained under Dooku in the same war, even though not together. They still would likely work well together, and have some good synchronicity.

Just because both Ventress and Vos were trained by Dooku doesn't mean they'll have good synchronicity [see Grievous and Ventress, as an example]. I'll be generous, though, and give you the benefit of the doubt, since there's coming a book where Ventress and Vos apparantly work together to down Dooku.

A few observations from my perspective:

• Tenebrous is more skilled, more knowledgable, more experienced, more powerful and faster and will be able to comfortably take on any pair of your Jedi by himself
• Bane can hold his own against anyone on your team and has the ability to dish out some lethal Force attacks
• Zannah's defensive approach will serve to prolong the fight until help comes along - if she gets the chance, then her sorcery could spell the end of your team.

That's all for now.

@sirfizzwhizz: Bump

@playa1:

And no. Tenebrous trained Venamis to the extent that Venamis not only was an expert in Plagueis' style [confirming Tenebrous' mastery of at least one form] but also to the extent that Venamis succesfully mixed forms, ambidextrously switching up his lightsaber between his own hands [confirming Tenebrous' mastery of multiple forms; adding that Tenebrous enjoyed lightsaber duels himsef definitely makes it possible that his preferred form was Juyo, a form requiring high-end mastery of multiple forms (Fightsaber)]. Not to mention that Tenebrous was almost certainly as skilled as Plagueis with a lightsaber, considering their relatively equalness at the time of Tenebrous' death, the fact that Tenebrous both enjoyed lightsaber duels more than Plagueis [who found them to be ''tedious affairs''] and that he himself pronounced Plagueis ''a master of the art'' [of lightsaber dueling], which would have been foolish and naive had he not been as or more skilled than Plagueis. Plagueis' own dueling abilities exceeds Cade's, Ventress' and Vos', as adapting the way he did against Venamis, who had complete knowledge of Plagueis' style and thereby an inherent advantage, and then beating him demonstrates tremendous lightsaber skill which Tenebrous then would share, based on the above. Add to that Tenebrous considerable speed [running at similar speeds as Plagueis, who, during his fight with Venamis, was conjuring thick enough afterglows that it would look like lightning bolts flashing through the forest they were fighting in] and his love for dueling, he'll definitely be the one to instigate the attacks, always keeping up the offense, eventually outpacing, outmaneuvering and outskilling whoever he's facing.

All this sounds good on paper, but thats all it is. One guy can teach another all he wants, does not make him a equal master of the student. Example, Qui Gon is to Obi Wan. Obi Wan was by far the superior duelist, even though he was mostly train by Qui Gon. Another example is say Tranya to Meetra. Tranya was clearly the less duelist to Meetra who was primarily train all by Tranya. In both examples there is factors to them surpassing the master, but still the examples are not just these, there are many more where a student surpassess the master.

In the end Tenebrous best feats are all base on who he really train others. If I was to throw say Dooku, or Anakin, or even Obi Wan against him, how will he fair? You cant really say he would win, he only face one other with any establish skill, and another he train as suppose feats for him. In short, he is not clearly establish to say he is better than Assajj Ventress who dueled and match Obi Wan, Anakin, Luminara and both Obi/Anny at the same time. She is in short simply establish. Same for Cade who match feat establish people like Nihl, Talon, or Krayt who in turn match many others. Same could be said for Vos who match and bested Sora Bulq who was one of the top duelist of the era in statements, and has establish feats outside that as well.

Again, I am not seeing Tenebrous outdueling anyone easy, if at all. Also all my characters heavily use the force in their duels anyway.

Vos may or may not be better than Zannah, but her defensive stance will definitely take time to penetrate. As for Bane? Besides also possessing knowledge of more than one form, he's as quick, clever and aggressive with a lightsaber as Vos, and if he uses the Force, then it could have fatal results [telekinetically ravaging campsites and scorching stone with lightning, as examples].

Thing is Bane feats outside Obalisk Armor, and outside his Force Nexus was really meh for a Sith Lord. Vos can more than match for a time. Which is what he is there for, to buy time.

Gallery

Vos using the force several times against the very veteran and pretty well establish Jedi like K'Kruhk.

Gallery

Vos using force abilities to out right beat the very establish and skilled Aayla.

Gallery

Against the Cortisis wielding Salje, he uses the Force for a easy win again, using it in a smart way.

Gallery

While fighting his former master Tholme, he wins again, not with Force this time, but the Cortsis gauntlets he wore towards the end on the Clone Wars.

Four fights that highlight well establish characters, outside Salje, and he defeats them all in a duel, but not thanks to superior skill, but superior cunning. He uses the Force, enviroment, and other hidden tricks as shown in all four showings here for wins. Something I really dont see any consistency for in your characters. While he may be outdueled, he can either hold his own, or mix it up with Force, Cortisis, and/or cunning for wins.

Where? You have only posted irrelevant bios, unless raising a child demands considerable Force mastery or lightsaber ability [?].

I guess I could Scan spam all day. However I really do not need too.

Lightsaber

Cade has no known stated Lightsaber forms, however both his on panel fighting style, and his shown training shows what forms he clearly masters. In this case Form IV and Form VII. He has by feats shown to be a prominent duelist of his era, and is shown to be a master of Hand to Hand fighting, sometimes opting never to use a Lightsaber. Cade training was from since birth by his Father Kol Skywalker, however Cade never picks up a lightsaber for seven years after the destruction of his Temple. He does train two more weeks with his former Master and Sado. Cade also trains for a week heavily with the Sith in fighting. Cade also master hand to hand and blasters for seen years as a well known Bounty Hunter.

Gallery

Form IV Ataru involves heavy use of acrobatics, and the use of hand to hand in Lightsaber duels. Cade is shown all the time using acrobatics, and mixing punches or kicks with his Lightsaber attacks. Its a style he falls back to alot, even when not using the Lightsaber as he fights alot of foes without it, using his Bounty Hunter train martial prowess.

Gallery

Form VII Juyo is heavily dependent on rage with overwhelming offense. This is a style he likely trained in with the Sith, who train in this form the most, and do to Cade' nature to rely on anger and rage to win fights, he likely uses this.

Now Cade is not limited to his insane hand to hand abilities, lightsaber. He is also a avid user of the Force in every fight. He abuses the Force in combat.

Gallery

Cade filled with rage takes on Talon, Nihl, and Krayt at the same time. Many examples of his Force coming into play which he abuses, inclding TK and the Force Lightning like power he has.

Gallery

Cade in a long battle against overwhelming Sith numbers. Its start with Cade taking out squads of 3rd Generation Sith, who studied the older Sith teachings, with total ease. The Krayt summons his genetically enhance, and Force enhance super Sith. These super Sith also engage Cade in heavy numbers, and all the Jedi around Cade begin to get slaughtered, Cade is the only one to hold his ground, and survive the wholesale slaughter. "I began this project decades ago, culling those strongest in the Force shortly after their births... Augmenting and improving them... Forging them into my Sith Troopers. Their loyalty is unquestion-able."- Darth Krayt. More examples of the abuse of Force in here in Lightning and TK.

Cade has more feats, by why waste time posting them? He is a exellent hand to hand fighter, adn uses that in his Lightsaber forms. He is also a force power house, and abuses Lightning, TK, and even a Dark Essence Transfer power he has. As for Ventress, she is by far the best dueler here base on feats period.

Light Saber Forms

Ventress was a master duelist, even before training from Dooku.

She was a original practitioner of Form VI's Jar Kai, and after training from Dooku added Form II to compete with Jedi.

Gallery

Form VI is all about balance, and the key form for dual blade wielding of Jar Kai. Its a jack of all trades, master of none form.

Gallery

Form II is all about the Lightsaber duel, and the perfect form of well place attacks with your Lightsaber.

She has also many well establish battles of her Force ability and skill against the best of the Clone Wars.

Ventress fights Jedi Master Kit Fisto, and beats him.

Gallery

Easily handles and taunts a late Clone Wars Anakin the whole fight, till he goes all out from rage tp dominate with his overwhelming Force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBMeNMP9Fk

Ventress in a three way battle with Dooku and Savage Opress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtO1U79HSqo

Fights Obi Wan and Anakin in extended duels. The first battle was a cat and mouse game to keep them busy. The second match is when Ventress battles them after she is fatally wounded in a star ship crash, something Obi Wan notes before the fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH3v1n7uMjo

Ventress takes on Ahsoka and Jedi Master Luminara. Luminara was handily beaten till Ahsoka saved her.

Most people reading these debates know my characters, and seen the accomplishments. Yours is a grey area at best. In the end I think my characters prowess, use of Force in Battle with skill, as shown above, far outweighs what your own shown.

Bane's knowledge of the Force and his versatility in it probably exceeds Ventress' and Vos', and perhaps Zannah's does too. Tenebrous is considerably more knowledgable and powerful than either Jedi of your team - his status as one of the last Sith in the Banite line grants him the position of one of the most knowledgable Sith in the mythos, and his few but impressive feats back it up [defending himself against a huge fireball that was created as the result of an exploded mine with a Force barrier, telekinetically supporting parts of a ceiling heavy enough to crush his starship with only moderate effort, developing his own maxi-chlorians which he used to shortly possess Plagueis' body without Plagueis knowing it, despite Plagueis being absolutely devoted to the study of midi-chlorians and the relation between life and death and immortality itself], etc.

Honestly anything you can show, Cade can match. Ventress EU feats like wise more than surpass Zannah or Bane regardless of their knowledge. Vos force wise by feats probaly only just matches, and even then by feats I showed above, I think its hard for you to disaprove he is smarter fighter in battles than your own IMO. I will wait to whay you break out for feats before I start the compare, and match game.

Tenebrous has more martial knowledge than your entire team, unless you have proof for or can infer that they are high-end masters of multiple forms with the ability to switch them up and mix them mid-fight.

I see no proof of this. He is stated a master of all forms? Last time I check you just wrote he is master of one form, and knowledgeable in the rest. Ventress is a master of Jar Kai. Cade is a master in other martial arts which overwhelm Lightsaber duelist, even when Cade has no lightsaber. Vos is not a master of eny form, but did train Aanya who was very high in skill, and bested Sora Bulq in their final encounter.

Im not sure why your character with mostly guesswork and vagueness is superior by fact. The best part of my team is they do not rely on Martial skill, as they combine Force in all their battles.

What is this based on? If it stood to me then Tenebrous would face Ventress and Vos alone simultaneously while Bane took on Cade and Zannah prepped some sorcery in the back.

This idea you have Tenborus taking on both Vos and Cade is silly to me. While I have NO DOUBT Ventress can hold her own against the inferior Zannah and Bane, after all she face Obi Wan and Anakin all the time with little trouble, but Cade by feats of who he taken on is more than a match for Tenebrous who you still have trouble proving is more powerful than anyone on my team beside Vos. That will sound arrogant to SW fans, but what feats he really has to his name against "establish" Lightsaber and Force users in duels? None really. Basically by feats he match Plagues, who dislike Lightsabers, and train another which is not really a accurate reflection of himself.

Also Vos is well adept to Dark Side sorcery, the guy has alot of experience with the Witches of Dathomire, and adamant Dark Side users in the Clone Wars. Doubt he will let Zannah slip his notice. Also Ventress knows more about the Darkside than you think.

Reanimate Dead

A ability more akin to Sith Incantation to make the dead rise.

Ventress use this ability once to force dead Gungans to fight for her.

"She was the strongest of us all, and for a brief moment, I could feel how strong. I suspect she would have lived forever, if not for this one sacrifice."―Obi-Wan Kenobi

Nearly force crushes Master Fay's heart. She was stated as one of the most powerful Jedi Kenobi knew. She states Ventress knowledge in the Dark Side was pretty impressive.

All in all I see no reason for Ventress, a Dathomire Witch whose background is base on Dark Side Sorcery, to allow Zannah to do anything either.

Tenebrous isn't an issue, he's my heavy-hitter. And he is selfish, yes, but so what? So are all Sith. Being selfish doesn't mean he won't help his team win, that's ridiculous.

Just because both Ventress and Vos were trained by Dooku doesn't mean they'll have good synchronicity [see Grievous and Ventress, as an example]. I'll be generous, though, and give you the benefit of the doubt, since there's coming a book where Ventress and Vos apparantly work together to down Dooku.

Team plaeyer does matter. Team work matters. All my guys have set aside their conflicts with those they hate, or despise, for a common goal. Ventress has shown no matter how much she hated Kenobi, she worked damn well with him. Cade shown no matter how much he hated Jedi and Sith, he train and worked with them. Vos hates Dark Siders period, but he still worked for them and did terrible things to stay undercover.

All in all my whole team has a history of clearly define team work abilities. Tenebrous say the same? Nope. He is a out only for himself Sith. I hardly think he will help Bane or Zannah much at all, and may think himself superior to them anyway, something I doubt they will take kindly too, or even entertain.

Team work matters, and mine has great teamwork feats and history.

A few observations from my perspective:

• Tenebrous is more skilled, more knowledgable, more experienced, more powerful and faster and will be able to comfortably take on any pair of your Jedi by himself
• Bane can hold his own against anyone on your team and has the ability to dish out some lethal Force attacks
• Zannah's defensive approach will serve to prolong the fight until help comes along - if she gets the chance, then her sorcery could spell the end of your team.

That's all for now.

• All this is speculation, and fan bias power scaling more than actual feats.
• He could against Vos, but the version of average Bane with no Dark Side Nexus is not owning Ventress whomatch greater, or Cade who dispatch Krayt at all.
• Zannah has one gaping weakness, force attacks. Her lightsaber skill in Form 3 is pretty useless against the TK abusing characters I have, and Vos alone can uses his gauntlets to short out her lightsaber, something she never encounter before.

All in all my team is a good counter to your own, and your reliance on the "heavy hitter" was a poor decision.

@sirfizzwhizz:

All this sounds good on paper, but thats all it is. One guy can teach another all he wants, does not make him a equal master of the student. Example, Qui Gon is to Obi Wan. Obi Wan was by far the superior duelist, even though he was mostly train by Qui Gon. Another example is say Tranya to Meetra. Tranya was clearly the less duelist to Meetra who was primarily train all by Tranya. In both examples there is factors to them surpassing the master, but still the examples are not just these, there are many more where a student surpassess the master.

Traya*.

And obviously students surpass their masters. But none of the examples are comparable to the situation with Tenebrous and Plagueis:

• Tenebrous and Plagueis appear of relatively equal Force mastery by the time of the formers death - both Qui-Gon and Traya are more powerful than their apprentices
• Tenebrous found joy in lightsaber dueling where Plagueis found wasted time (such a contrast isn't found in your examples)
• Tenebrous called Plagueis a ''master of the art'' [of lightsaber dueling], a foolish accolade to pass on had he not himself been as good (neither master said as much)

So clearly, all of the factors relevant to the situation with Tenebrous and Plagueis are irrelevant to your situations. Gon' need to come up with something better, bro.

In the end Tenebrous best feats are all base on who he really train others.

And it's explained pretty damn well above, bro. You don't have to agree with what is technically speculation (although reasonable speculation at that) but at least explain why (again, being as logical as I was).

If I was to throw say Dooku, or Anakin, or even Obi Wan against him, how will he fair? You cant really say he would win, he only face one other with any establish skill, and another he train as suppose feats for him. In short, he is not clearly establish to say he is better than Assajj Ventress who dueled and match Obi Wan, Anakin, Luminara and both Obi/Anny at the same time. She is in short simply establish. Same for Cade who match feat establish people like Nihl, Talon, or Krayt who in turn match many others. Same could be said for Vos who match and bested Sora Bulq who was one of the top duelist of the era in statements, and has establish feats outside that as well.

Going by my line of thinking he'd be equal to Plagueis who beat Venamis in a lightsaber duel despite Venamis being a complete expert on Plagueis' form [an advantage so considerable that ''... and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis' every move.'' That's as good as anything Dooku, for example, has ever done. If not, then prove your point.

Again, I am not seeing Tenebrous outdueling anyone easy, if at all.

Because you used irrelevant examples to disprove my ''theory'', if you will.

Also all my characters heavily use the force in their duels anyway.

Tenebrous could virtually ragdoll Ventress and Vos simultaneously. Cade, perhaps not, but his knowledge and study of the Force still makes him a more masterful Force wielder.

Thing is Bane feats outside Obalisk Armor, and outside his Force Nexus was really meh for a Sith Lord. Vos can more than match for a time. Which is what he is there for, to buy time.

And if Bane feels it'll take too long to outskill him, he'll probably use the Force to get an advantage, don't you think? Bane isn't a moron who'd love nothing more than to stray away from using the Force if that's what he feels could help him.

While he may be outdueled, he can either hold his own, or mix it up with Force, Cortisis, and/or cunning for wins.

Probably not, considering Bane's superior Force mastery and similar level of cunning.

Cade has no known stated Lightsaber forms, however both his on panel fighting style, and his shown training shows what forms he clearly masters. In this case Form IV and Form VII

So you judging Cade's mastery via. his on-panel fighting style is more reasonable than what I concluded pertaining to Tenebrous? By the way, I'd like to see the scans of his fighting style where it's clear that he's mastered Juyo.

Now Cade is not limited to his insane hand to hand abilities, lightsaber. He is also a avid user of the Force in every fight. He abuses the Force in combat.

That's all well and good but Tenebrous and Bane are more powerful than anyone Cade has overpowered with the Force.

Ventress was a master duelist, even before training from Dooku.

Palpatine considered her impressive in the quote. Where does he even consider her a ''master duelist'', much less before her training even began?

Form II is all about the Lightsaber duel, and the perfect form of well place attacks with your Lightsaber.

That's cool. Good for me, then, that Bane uses Djem So, which is Makashi's weakness:

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. (Dooku in Revenge of the Sith).

Ventress fights Jedi Master Kit Fisto, and beats him.

Form II (Ventress' form) is at a pretty significant advantage against Form I (Kit's form), bro:

Because the ancient Jedi did not have lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. (Drallig in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force).

Most people reading these debates know my characters, and seen the accomplishments. Yours is a grey area at best.

Not really. Your point, though?

Honestly anything you can show, Cade can match.

From Zannah? Yup. Bane? Probably. Tenebrous? His telekinetic feat outmatches Cade's, his knowledge of it almost certainly outmatches Cade, his use of the Force to augment his physical abilities outmatches Cade's, his Force barrier matched Cade's, etc.

Ventress EU feats like wise more than surpass Zannah or Bane regardless of their knowledge.

Based on what does she surpass Bane?

Vos force wise by feats probaly only just matches,

Again, based on what?

I see no proof of this. He is stated a master of all forms? Last time I check you just wrote he is master of one form, and knowledgeable in the rest.

Never said he mastered all forms, bro. And you didn't check right. Venamis mixed between multiple forms against Plagueis, pretty much confirming Tenebrous' own mastery of multiple forms.

Vos is not a master of eny form,

I'm pretty sure he's mastered Ataru, actually.

and bested Sora Bulq in their final encounter.

An encounter riddled with circumstances. Bulq is more skilled than Vos and has the feats to back it up, such as comfortably beating Tholme whom Vos only was about even with, or fighting nigh-even with Mace, which is beyond Vos' capability (until you prove otherwise). Not saying Vos can't hold his own, but I don't think Bulq's superiority can be questioned.

Im not sure why your character with mostly guesswork and vagueness is superior by fact

Because I applied logic and reasoning in explaining why, bro. Not sure why you're mad, though.

The best part of my team is they do not rely on Martial skill, as they combine Force in all their battles.

Your teams strength is their Force abilities, even though my team is more powerful than yours? Doesn't look good, bro.

This idea you have Tenborus taking on both Vos and Cade is silly to me.

Apparantly you can't read. I said Tenebrous could take on Ventress and Vos, not Cade, whom Bane would fight.

after all she face Obi Wan and Anakin all the time with little trouble

Anakin is pretty clearly her superior, bro. Bane would give Obi-Wan a good fight.

but Cade by feats of who he taken on is more than a match for Tenebrous who you still have trouble proving is more powerful than anyone on my team beside Vos

lol

That will sound arrogant to SW fans, but what feats he really has to his name against "establish" Lightsaber and Force users in duels? None really. Basically by feats he match Plagues, who dislike Lightsabers, and train another which is not really a accurate reflection of himself.

So basically you didn't really read my paragraphs on Tenebrous at all. Noted.

Also Vos is well adept to Dark Side sorcery, the guy has alot of experience with the Witches of Dathomire, and adamant Dark Side users in the Clone Wars. Doubt he will let Zannah slip his notice.

Your point?

Also Ventress knows more about the Darkside than you think.

I lol'd.

All in all I see no reason for Ventress, a Dathomire Witch whose background is base on Dark Side Sorcery, to allow Zannah to do anything either.

Did I say as much? Your strawmans are flooding all over the place, bro.

Team work matters.

Never said it didn't. Another strawman.

All in all my whole team has a history of clearly define team work abilities. Tenebrous say the same? Nope. He is a out only for himself Sith. I hardly think he will help Bane or Zannah much at all, and may think himself superior to them anyway, something I doubt they will take kindly too, or even entertain.

Is this even allowed as an argument? To argue that a character of mine won't help his team?

All this is speculation, and fan bias power scaling more than actual feats.

I'm not really fond of you either, bro, but I'll let it slide this time.

He could against Vos

Bane can't hold his own against Ventress?

but the version of average Bane with no Dark Side Nexus is not owning Ventress whomatch greater, or Cade who dispatch Krayt at all.

Two strawmans in one sentence. You're on a roll, bro.

Zannah has one gaping weakness

Does it start with a V? >:]

Her lightsaber skill in Form 3 is pretty useless against the TK abusing characters I have

Proof?

Vos alone can uses his gauntlets to short out her lightsaber, something she never encounter before.

Perhaps.

All in all my team is a good counter to your own, and your reliance on the "heavy hitter" was a poor decision.

That's nice.

Are we done here? Or do you wanna go one more time?

@playa1:

And obviously students surpass their masters. But none of the examples are comparable to the situation with Tenebrous and Plagueis:

• Tenebrous and Plagueis appear of relatively equal Force mastery by the time of the formers death - both Qui-Gon and Traya are more powerful than their apprentices
• Tenebrous found joy in lightsaber dueling where Plagueis found wasted time (such a contrast isn't found in your examples)
• Tenebrous called Plagueis a ''master of the art'' [of lightsaber dueling], a foolish accolade to pass on had he not himself been as good (neither master said as much)

So clearly, all of the factors relevant to the situation with Tenebrous and Plagueis are irrelevant to your situations. Gon' need to come up with something better, bro.

You still have not shown much of anything that Tenebrous is as good as you think.

• Appear, is the key word your suing, my point exactly. Tenbrous in this argument is weaker than Plagues, which is all that matters.
• Yes he love it, and Plagues hated it, yet Plagues with no interest in it still better than Tenebrous. My point exactly.
• Master of this and that is thrown around ALOT. Exar Kun, Sora Bulq, Ventress, Anakin, Qel Droma, Revan, Traya, The Exile, Obi Wan, Yoda, and many more countless examples are "Masters" of Lightsaber combat, yet they are not equals at all in duels. Thats the point. Feats > Vague Accolades. How much of a master? Better than Windu? Yoda? Dooku? Proof?!

In the end, your choice of a vague characters is a poor one.

And it's explained pretty damn well above, bro. You don't have to agree with what is technically speculation (although reasonable speculation at that) but at least explain why (again, being as logical as I was).

Students tend to surpass their teachers, like Exar Kun had, like Anakin had, like Obi Wan had, like the Exile had, like Revan had, Quinlon Vos had, and so on and so forth. Your proof is really nothing more that the characters Tenebrous train are simply better than him, with feats. Thats all.

Going by my line of thinking he'd be equal to Plagueis who beat Venamis in a lightsaber duel despite Venamis being a complete expert on Plagueis' form [an advantage so considerable that ''... and so the Bith could not only anticipate but counter Plagueis' every move.'' That's as good as anything Dooku, for example, has ever done. If not, then prove your point.

Plagues is superior IMO. He matches a guy in something he loves, even though he hates it. Thats like me hating Math, hardly investing time in it, yet getting higher grades than the kid who loves it, and studies it for fun. Thats not how life works.

At least my characters are from a time more sophisticated than Tenebrous own time, and have establish feats, and accolades to go together. Period. I posted them above.

Because you used irrelevant examples to disprove my ''theory'', if you will.

Again you really have no proof. I did. It will show come vote time.

Tenebrous could virtually ragdoll Ventress and Vos simultaneously. Cade, perhaps not, but his knowledge and study of the Force still makes him a more masterful Force wielder.

Ventress Force powers are vastly underestimated on this site, and is everybit as powerful as people like Maul, or pre prime Anakin. she used the force on beings who are either stated, or held in higher regard all the time.

Here Ventress nearly crushes Master Fay's heart, breaking through her TK defense. Master Fay was stated by Obi Wan to be far more powerful than himself.

"She was the strongest of us all, and for a brief moment, I could feel how strong. I suspect she would have lived forever, if not for this one sacrifice."―Obi-Wan Kenobi

Here she blows Kenobi through a reinforce wall, flying hundreds of feet.

While injured badly Force chokes both Anakin and Obi Wan.

Visibly shows forming cracks in the solid stone wall, and no the Flamethrower guy did not "loosen" the stone that had no visible cracks with his napalm. The cracks are shown when she applies her Force to it, and the huge solid chunks fall.

Easy 50+ ton solid stone column she breaks apart, and throws around like nothing.

You already admit Cade possible matching in force. Between him and Ventress, Tenebrous, your only real hard hitter that you so far only focused on arguing for, is not ragdolling by feats either these two, at all.

And if Bane feels it'll take too long to outskill him, he'll probably use the Force to get an advantage, don't you think? Bane isn't a moron who'd love nothing more than to stray away from using the Force if that's what he feels could help him.

I agree, but his force feats as normal Bane is not going to help him. Bane is only at his best when on a Darkside Nexus or has his armor.

Probably not, considering Bane's superior Force mastery and similar level of cunning.

Yet Vos more than held his own against some of the worst. I showed some great examples above already of establish Jedi he beaten, and then there is these as well.

Gallery

This is Quinlon Vos facing both Aayla and Volfe Karkko. Who is the Volfe?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Volfe_Karkko

A well establish fallen Jedi, with great power, and killed several councilors in his time before being subdued. He has incredible illusion, lightning, and TP abilities. He was a major threat. yet after fighting his own apprentice, Vos dispatch this foe.

Gallery

Then we see this level of great skill again as Vos fights Skorr, a dark jedi, and his former master Sora Bulq right after Skorr. Sora Bulq is very acclaim in skill and ability.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sora_Bulq

I really do not need to justify how good Vos is in a pinch.

Now would Vos easy beat either the above? no, but he is more than a match for the force abilities and lightsaber skill of a average Bane IMO.

So you judging Cade's mastery via. his on-panel fighting style is more reasonable than what I concluded pertaining to Tenebrous? By the way, I'd like to see the scans of his fighting style where it's clear that he's mastered Juyo.

That's all well and good but Tenebrous and Bane are more powerful than anyone Cade has overpowered with the Force.

Palpatine considered her impressive in the quote. Where does he even consider her a ''master duelist'', much less before her training even began?

Can you really counter my assessment? What style would Cade use? What other style uses hand to hand heavily with acrobatics in its style? Only Form 4, at least I made a educated guess with feats to support it. Whats your excuse for what Tenebrous may favor or not favor? Also I never said mastered Juyo, in fact I doubt he mastered any style other than raw martial arts. I said training with Sith trying to get Cade to use his rage would likely train in Juyo.

Vos however has training with Juyo as it was stated, and Vos has shown good use of Form 4 as well. We know Ventress forms base on feats of her Jar Kai, and Form 2 thanks to her saber hilts, and training with Dooku. We do know by feats and what who they fought that Ventress and Vos are top notch fighters as well. So is Cade.

That's cool. Good for me, then, that Bane uses Djem So, which is Makashi's weakness:

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. (Dooku inRevenge of the Sith).

Yes, too bad Ventress already shown time and again able to lock blades with obi Wan and Anakin, the user of Form 5, at the same time with little hindrance. Testament to her own skill and strength. While RotS Anakin would likely best Ventress in a duel, it would not be as easy as you think, and Bane is nowhere near Anakin in Force Amps or skill.

Form II (Ventress' form) is at a pretty significant advantage against Form I (Kit's form), bro:

Because the ancient Jedi did not have lightsaber-wielding enemies, Form I does not address the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.(Drallig in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force).

Again this is Kit Fisto, a Jedi with super speed, and so much skilled that he was the only Jedi to last a time against Palpatine blitz. The Jedi who defeated Grievous rather easily even though Greivous is train in all styles. Form advantage means little unless Ventress own skill and stats can compete with the competition.

From Zannah? Yup. Bane? Probably. Tenebrous? His telekinetic feat outmatches Cade's, his knowledge of it almost certainly outmatches Cade, his use of the Force to augment his physical abilities outmatches Cade's, his Force barrier matched Cade's, etc.

This is false. Show me Tenebrous knowing Shatter Points, or Dark transfer. he did not know either the way Cade did, something Cade learn and taught Krayt who with all his access to Sith knowledge never knew either. So tight there Cade knows things Tenebrous never had, unless you can prove otherwise.

While Cade is not a studies of the Force, his Skywalker linage is underrated badly on this site. Like all Skywalkers, he has a affinity to learn things of the force without real training, and he is able to learn Lightsaber combat, as well force abilities with a degree of mastery faster than any other. He shows this time and again in the Legacy comics that get low balled badly. I am not saying he is equals with say Anakin in his prime, but Cade is still as good as Anakin, or Luke RotJ.

Based on what does she surpass Bane?

TK strength, use of TK in combat, how she applies it, raising the dead, and use of Force Concealment from even the greatest of Jedi cannot sense through till she drops it. While Bane knows more sorcery, lightning, and such, Ventress still surpasses average Bane in certain uses of the Force.

Again, based on what?

Base on ALL the battles, and managing to match or come out on top that I showed above.

Never said he mastered all forms, bro. And you didn't check right. Venamis mixed between multiple forms against Plagueis, pretty much confirming Tenebrous' own mastery of multiple forms.

You can switch between forms, does not mean you "master" or have "mastery" of them, just that your knowledgeable in them. Which so is Vader, or Dooku, or many more. All have great knowledge in forms, but all use on form or two over the rest, or simply make their own hybrid. Nothing new here.

I'm pretty sure he's mastered Ataru, actually.

Your right, the game Clone Wars Adventures is cited to say this, though i never seen a statement in the vids on Youtube, untill I see this proof my self, I question the source. I do know he knows Form 7 as Sora taught it to him, and he applied a little of it to Mace. I also think it is hinted Vos knows Shien well as he does show time and again a reverse grip on the lightsaber. Anyone reading this debate, please do show me the part of the game the Ataru mastery for Vos is stated.

An encounter riddled with circumstances. Bulq is more skilled than Vos and has the feats to back it up, such as comfortably beating Tholme whom Vos only was about even with, or fighting nigh-even with Mace, which is beyond Vos' capability (until you prove otherwise). Not saying Vos can't hold his own, but I don't think Bulq's superiority can be questioned.

I agree, there is circumstance to it, but it is not a feat to take away when Vos just got done fighting Skorr, and still kept from being killed by Sora Bulq, and managing to slay him. Same for Aayla and Volfe fight. Vos still won a impossible battle, which is testament to his skill, and scoundrels luck in a fight lol.

Im just saying base on Vos feats and accomplishments of impossible odds, time and again, he will simply be a factor more than say Zannah in this fight IMO.

Because I applied logic and reasoning in explaining why, bro. Not sure why you're mad, though.

heh, the classic "You must be Mad bro!" comment. Im not sure were my lol translate to rage, but ok. I see you really have no counter here anyway.

Your teams strength is their Force abilities, even though my team is more powerful than yours? Doesn't look good, bro.

You have not proven their stronger at all, in any way.

Apparantly you can't read. I said Tenebrous could take on Ventress and Vos, not Cade, whom Bane would fight.

Then thats even more of joke to me. He would be slaughtered by Asajj and Cade.

Anakin is pretty clearly her superior, bro. Bane would give Obi-Wan a good fight.

Yet I posted all the fights where she in a duel matches, and done as I siad, matching pre RotS Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time. It happen, many times.

lol

No counter, good to know.

So basically you didn't really read my paragraphs on Tenebrous at all. Noted.

i read your limited and vague feats. not impressed. I think he is run of the mill Sith Lord who knows more than applies it. Lets face it, he is no Plagues or Sidious by feats. I think he is barely Dooku level honestly from what i read and seen you argue for him.

Your point?

The point you missed is Vos will reconise the threat your weakest link Zannah is, and break her. Ventress and Cade matches the rest of your team nicely enough anyway.

I lol'd.

More lol with no real counters.

Did I say as much? Your strawmans are flooding all over the place, bro.

What straw Man arguments? You said she will run away top cast spells on my team who will effectively ignore her? Thats a pretty failed argument in itself when my team will recognize the threat when they see it, and end her, as I "debated". Something you done hardly at all in this match.

Never said it didn't. Another strawman.

There goes that "Strawman" being mis applied again.

i stated the team work factor in a fight, and you chose to ignore it. You never defended your teamwork either. You have one powerhouse with no real history of teamwork, and filled with back stabbing doing his own thing, leaving your Master and Apprentice who betrayed each other already doing there own thing. I have three characters who shown through feats to hold alliances with those they hate, and work with people they hate nicely. Two of my team know each other from files and mentors as well. Its a edge, slight as it may be.

All in all my whole team has a history of clearly define team work abilities. Tenebrous say the same? Nope. He is a out only for himself Sith. I hardly think he will help Bane or Zannah much at all, and may think himself superior to them anyway, something I doubt they will take kindly too, or even entertain.

Is this even allowed as an argument? To argue that a character of mine won't help his team?

Welcome to comicvine, and debating.

I'm not really fond of you either, bro, but I'll let it slide this time.

If you cant take someone trying to debate why their team wins, then go somewhere else.

Bane can't hold his own against Ventress?

He wont win. Thats for sure. Guy already showed trouble with Jar Kai wielders in the past, and never had much experience with them anyway. Another benefit for Ventress.

Two strawmans in one sentence. You're on a roll, bro.

Since you have no clue what the term means. Your welcome. Everything I am arguing is why my team wins while you really had not defended or even try to disprove with facts.

Does it start with a V? >:]

Proof?

Well, Zannah has never really fought many TK abusing foes with TK feats like Cade or Ventress have. The only person she fought of worth was Bane, and he was weaker in the end then he was at his peak, and she still only won with much pre battle planning. The only reason was stunning Bane with a mental assault giving her time to summon Dark tendrils that Bane stupidly plowed through like a idiot.

None of that will really work on my characters. Vos already been assaulted by Volf, Sora, and more by mental assaults, and shrugged them off. Cade like wise shrug off several mental assaults, and even wiped the memory of another as a counter mental assault. Ventress never been mentally assaulted really except by Fay, and she recovered quickly enough to end Fay right after it, she may stagger, but all in all my characters will shrug off the mental assaults Zannah uses. As for Dark tendrils, its called TK. Zannah as I said was never really TK or showed great TK defense by feats. I see no reason for three characters with TK assaults in combat to Force Choke, Force Crush, or Force ragdoll to lose against Zannah.

Perhaps.

Another major factor to come into play. Shorting out the lightsaber.

That's nice.

Are we done here? Or do you wanna go one more time?

Go ahead and try to mount some kind of debate if ya want, my arguments back by feats is solid. My team would deal with Tenebrous, Zannah is the weakest link, and this end game version of Bane will be meh against any of my characters besides Vos.

@sirfizzwhizz

Appear, is the key word your suing, my point exactly. Tenbrous in this argument is weaker than Plagues, which is all that matters.

Students tend to surpass their teachers, like Exar Kun had, like Anakin had, like Obi Wan had, like the Exile had, like Revan had, Quinlon Vos had, and so on and so forth. Your proof is really nothing more that the characters Tenebrous train are simply better than him, with feats. Thats all.

So what? Plagueis surpassed Tenebrous as time went on. Do you have proof that he was more powerful than Tenebrous by the time of Tenebrous' death? In fact, that Plagueis got rid of Tenebrous via. deception and trickery instead of fighting him directly definitely indicates that Plagueis wasn't more powerful than Tenebrous at the time. Zannah was not more powerful than Bane when she killed him either, and neither was Palpatine more powerful than Plagueis. Absolutely nothing supports your idea that Plagueis was more powerful than Tenebrous at the time of Tenebrous' death.

Yes he love it, and Plagues hated it, yet Plagues with no interest in it still better than Tenebrous. My point exactly.

Your reading comprehension fails you miserably. The proof that Plagueis was ever more skilled than Tenebrous is lacking. Your point never agrees with what I said. Do you even read what you write?

Master of this and that is thrown around ALOT. Exar Kun, Sora Bulq, Ventress, Anakin, Qel Droma, Revan, Traya, The Exile, Obi Wan, Yoda, and many more countless examples are "Masters" of Lightsaber combat, yet they are not equals at all in duels. Thats the point. Feats > Vague Accolades. How much of a master? Better than Windu? Yoda? Dooku? Proof?!

Again with you attacking a position I haven't asserted. In fact, I never even claimed that Plagueis was impressive because Tenebrous said he was ''a master''. I used Tenebrous' claim to support my argument for him being as skilled as Plagueis, nothing more.

Plagues is superior IMO. He matches a guy in something he loves, even though he hates it. Thats like me hating Math, hardly investing time in it, yet getting higher grades than the kid who loves it, and studies it for fun. Thats not how life works.

I don't care about your opinion because it's unsubstantiated. You ''countered'' by using irrelevant examples, and when I then went on to explain why they were irrelevant and not proof of your position, you answered with a mix of reading comprehension and strawmans.

Again you really have no proof. I did. It will show come vote time.

I can't tell if you're serious. I explained my reasoning. All you did was use the relationship between character such as Jinn and Kenobi or Traya and the Exile, despite them being incomparable to the relationship between Tenebrous and Plagueis. To dig your own grave even further, you didn't concede that your examples were totally and utterly irrelevant but instead tried to save face by constructing points that had no relevance to mine and attack claims that I never agreed with.

Ventress Force powers are vastly underestimated on this site, and is everybit as powerful as people like Maul, or pre prime Anakin. she used the force on beings who are either stated, or held in higher regard all the time.

As powerful as Maul? Nonsense. He has dragged shuttles across surfaces and telekinetically dominated Kenobi to a higher extent than Ventress ever have. She might be about as powerful as AotC Anakin, though no more. Ventress doing as good as she did against Kenobi and Anakin simultaneously is nothing more than a completely inconsistent performance, considering how Anakin has telekinetically dominated her before (In Obsession, he uses telekinesis to easily strangle her with electric cables, and he has other feats well beyond hers, such as collapsing a dome facility of considerable size with a Force scream, telekinetically moving gigantic dreadnaughts, etc.), and how she always fought on par with Kenobi, not beyond him, and Kenobi is a tier below Anakin as a swordsman (confirmed in The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, where Nick Gillard says that Kenobi is tier 8 and Anakin tier 9), and how she was beaten fairly quickly by Mace, another swordsman more skilled than Kenobi (also confirmed by Nick Gillard in the same book), and how she has fought Koon twice without getting any distinct advantage despite Koon being only as skilled as Kenobi at best, and so on. Ventress was easily immobilized by Dooku on multiple occasions, even though Tenebrous' one TK feat is beyond what Dooku has ever shown. She was easily immobilized by Anakin, as I mentioned, and his TK feats are only about equal to what Tenebrous has accomplished. Vos is no better. He is hardly more powerful than Ventress, if at all. Penetrating their Force defenses will, if he really wants to, be a light task.

You already admit Cade possible matching in force.

No, I didn't.

Between him and Ventress, Tenebrous, your only real hard hitter that you so far only focused on arguing for, is not ragdolling by feats either these two, at all.

Characters with equal or lesser Force mastery have ragdolled Ventress. Never said that Tenebrous would ragdoll Cade.

I agree, but his force feats as normal Bane is not going to help him. Bane is only at his best when on a Darkside Nexus or has his armor.

Which is of no relevance, considering that Bane with his orbalisk armor or amped by a nexus would destroy Vos.

Yet Vos more than held his own against some of the worst. I showed some great examples above already of establish Jedi he beaten, and then there is these as well.

So what? Characters such as Aayla and Tholme are respectable Force users but not on Bane's level. If you read looked at your own scans, you'd see that Volfe was throwing around Vos with TK.

Now would Vos easy beat either the above? no, but he is more than a match for the force abilities and lightsaber skill of a average Bane IMO.

More than a match, as in he would beat Bane? Bane has pulverized organs in guards and ravaged campsites via. TK, as examples. If he unleashes his TK, it will certainly stagger Vos, if not outright injure him if he throws Vos into a wall, or similar. Vos doesn't really have superior feats of skill either. Holding advantages over Aayla and Tholme is impressive but hardly beyond contending with Kas'im before his own prime, or being even with Zannah, and so on.

Can you really counter my assessment? What style would Cade use? What other style uses hand to hand heavily with acrobatics in its style? Only Form 4, at least I made a educated guess with feats to support it. Whats your excuse for what Tenebrous may favor or not favor? Also I never said mastered Juyo, in fact I doubt he mastered any style other than raw martial arts. I said training with Sith trying to get Cade to use his rage would likely train in Juyo.

All of this is pretty much irrelevant.

Yes, too bad Ventress already shown time and again able to lock blades with obi Wan and Anakin, the user of Form 5, at the same time with little hindrance. Testament to her own skill and strength.

Right, and I never said that Bane would overpower her, did I? I just pointed it out, since you seem to think that Makashi is a free ''get out of jail card''.

Form advantage means little unless Ventress own skill and stats can compete with the competition.

I never said Ventress would be unable to compete with him had she not had an advantageous form, bro.

Show me Tenebrous knowing Shatter Points, or Dark transfer. he did not know either the way Cade did, something Cade learn and taught Krayt who with all his access to Sith knowledge never knew either. So tight there Cade knows things Tenebrous never had, unless you can prove otherwise.

LOL. So because Cade knows a few powers that Tenebrous didn't, he's more knowledgable?

The Rule of Two worked so that over generations, power and knowledge of the Sith that were a part of it grew. By being one of the last Sith in the Banite line, which were the Sith line that operated under the Rule of Two, his power would be beyond what the first Sith were capable of, such as Bane and Zannah, by a considerable amount, since there were several Sith in between Zannah and Tenebrous. That alone makes him more knowledgable. Bane already had considerable amounts of knowledge after studying various holocrons, and even though the progression of the Banite line was set back by Gravid, much of the knowledge as still passed down the generations. Further more, even though knowledge of Essence transfer had gone lost after Gravid's betrayal, Tenebrous created his own maxi-chlorians to compensate, which he used to possess Plagueis, in spite of Plagueis' knowledge and study of midi-chlorians and practically everything related to it. So yes, Tenebrous is more knowledgable than Cade.

While Cade is not a studies of the Force, his Skywalker linage is underrated badly on this site. Like all Skywalkers, he has a affinity to learn things of the force without real training, and he is able to learn Lightsaber combat, as well force abilities with a degree of mastery faster than any other. He shows this time and again in the Legacy comics that get low balled badly. I am not saying he is equals with say Anakin in his prime, but Cade is still as good as Anakin, or Luke RotJ.

That Cade is part of a prodigious lineage isn't objected to, but studying the Force is still central for gaining more knowledge of it and, thereby, mastering it better. Tenebrous might not have the same potential as Cade, but his study of the Force and its mechanics is more thorough, his understanding is deeper, and so on. Anakin and Luke are irrelevant.

TK strength, use of TK in combat, how she applies it, raising the dead, and use of Force Concealment from even the greatest of Jedi cannot sense through till she drops it. While Bane knows more sorcery, lightning, and such, Ventress still surpasses average Bane in certain uses of the Force.

So what if her TK matches his (it doesn't, by the way) and she knows a power or to he doesn't? He knows several more powers than her regardless.

Base on ALL the battles, and managing to match or come out on top that I showed above.

None of his feats outweigh Bane's. Bane is much more dangerous as a Force wielder and equally dangerous with a lightsaber.

You can switch between forms, does not mean you "master" or have "mastery" of them, just that your knowledgeable in them. Which so is Vader, or Dooku, or many more. All have great knowledge in forms, but all use on form or two over the rest, or simply make their own hybrid. Nothing new here.

LOL. Are you seriously contesting that Tenebrous, a Sith master who found joy in the arts of lightsaber dueling, simply practiced the forms to the extent that he only had knowledge of them, and then stopped, instead of continuing and mastering them?

Then thats even more of joke to me. He would be slaughtered by Asajj and Cade.

Do you lack the ability to read or to fomulate yourself to an understandable level? I just said that he wouldn't take on Cade and Ventress at the same time for the second time, yet you still consider the outcome if it would happen.

read your limited and vague feats. not impressed. I think he is run of the mill Sith Lord who knows more than applies it. Lets face it, he is no Plagues or Sidious by feats. I think he is barely Dooku level honestly from what i read and seen you argue for him.

Your ignorance is noted. Regardless, he doesn't need to be Sidious or Plagueis, both of whom would effortlessly crush your entire team by themselves.

The point you missed is Vos will reconise the threat your weakest link Zannah is, and break her. Ventress and Cade matches the rest of your team nicely enough anyway.

By that line of logic, Tenebrous would recognize that Vos is your weak link and eliminate him from the start.

What straw Man arguments? You said she will run away top cast spells on my team who will effectively ignore her? Thats a pretty failed argument in itself when my team will recognize the threat when they see it, and end her, as I "debated". Something you done hardly at all in this match.

You ask for examples of your strawman arguments, then create another one immediately? I never said she would run away. Quote me when I said that. I said that she would use sorcery is she got the opportunity, which is not at all the same as deliberately running away.

i stated the team work factor in a fight, and you chose to ignore it. You never defended your teamwork either. You have one powerhouse with no real history of teamwork, and filled with back stabbing doing his own thing, leaving your Master and Apprentice who betrayed each other already doing there own thing. I have three characters who shown through feats to hold alliances with those they hate, and work with people they hate nicely. Two of my team know each other from files and mentors as well. Its a edge, slight as it may be.

Please. Teamwork is practically useless unless your team is either smaller or bigger (by numbers) than the opposite team. Here, both of our teams consist of three characters who, most likely, will fight one of mine each.

If you cant take someone trying to debate why their team wins, then go somewhere else.

Coming from the guy playing the bias card in his second post.

He wont win. Thats for sure. Guy already showed trouble with Jar Kai wielders in the past, and never had much experience with them anyway. Another benefit for Ventress.

This is out of context. Bane had trouble with Jar'Kai in Path of Destruction against Kas'im because he had never seen it before. Ventress' Jar'Kai won't take him by surprise.

Since you have no clue what the term means. Your welcome. Everything I am arguing is why my team wins while you really had not defended or even try to disprove with facts.

No, what you're doing is attacking and arguing againsts claims I never made. No wonder you're feeling so good when you're arguing with yourself, bro.

Well, Zannah has never really fought many TK abusing foes with TK feats like Cade or Ventress have.

Not really relevant. Plagueis hasn't fought anyone with the tendency to use TK in a fight: doesn't mean he won't crush either of them.

The only person she fought of worth was Bane, and he was weaker in the end then he was at his peak, and she still only won with much pre battle planning.

Again, not relevant. Bane at his peak with the orbalisk armor would beat both everyone on your team. She didn't prep anything.

None of that will really work on my characters. Vos already been assaulted by Volf, Sora, and more by mental assaults, and shrugged them off.

Are you serious? She penetrated Bane's mind, despite Bane being able to shield his mind against Kaan's telepathy, which was influencing the entire Brotherhood, if I recall correctly.

Cade like wise shrug off several mental assaults, and even wiped the memory of another as a counter mental assault.

Then again, did I ever claim she'd beat Cade via. a mental assault? Don't think so.

Ventress never been mentally assaulted really except by Fay, and she recovered quickly enough to end Fay right after it, she may stagger, but all in all my characters will shrug off the mental assaults Zannah uses.

Your opinion is irrelevant compared to what Zannah has shown: the ability to infiltrate Ventress' mind if given the opportunity.

I see no reason for three characters with TK assaults in combat to Force Choke, Force Crush, or Force ragdoll to lose against Zannah.

''Force ragdoll''? That isn't even a power. Cade is the only one on your team that have the feats to support the idea that he can sufficiently injure Zannah with his TK that it'll increase his chances of winning.

Another major factor to come into play. Shorting out the lightsaber.

Pretty sure it isn't part of his ''standard gear', though, as the OP demands.

@sirfizzwhizz

You wanna let it go to votes now?

@playa1: ready for votes.

@sirfizzwhizz: @playa1: Votes it is. I'll keep votes up for a week before closing them. Whoever has the most by the end wins and will move on to round 2.

@darthmanhunter@jacthripper@higorm@cosmicallyaware1@darthant66@dedmanwalkin@thenewbluebeetle007@aurbere- Tagged for votes at request.

@burnface@juiceboks@laflux@shootingnova@wollfmyth209@sirfizzwhizz@banthabot@draukin@playa1@dccomicsrule2011@jkbart@thevivas@selenial - Participants

You guys and anyone else who wants to can vote on this match, providing:

• You are impartial
• You vote based solely on the content of the thread from the two debaters, without considering your own knowledge/views on the characters
• You give at least a sentence or two explaining why you voted for the user of your choice

@i_like_swords: ok let me give this a proper read before I can vote..

Voting for sir fizz wiz. I am voting for sir fizz wiz because of better counters, better scans to Katie in with his explanations.

@haoalchemist: You're going to have to be more specific than "better counters" and "better scans".

@i_like_swords: ok so going into detail how I believe sirfizz wins (this was a good match gj both debators). The scan of ventless almost crushing master Fay's heart. Now that was impressive and that scan wasn't debunked unless I missed something when I read this match. Also PLAYA did not prove how his team force abilities was stronger IMO. Also instead of countering sir fizz, sometimes playa said lol. Which IMO did not impress me and overall also made me lean toward sirfizz. Also I could not find the Ataru feat that Playa mentioned which I think may have been fabricated (unless someone finds it). So in conclusion sirfizz debated his team better, counters were better (some of playas counters were "lols") and the scans were better and it tied into his overall point (if u need more examples let me know)

@haoalchemist: Ah, thanks for all the detail. I just needed some more specifics is all.

With that counted it's 1-0 so far.

Edit: Gonna use this post to track votes.

PLAYA1 (9)

• Selenial
• Aurbere
• Wollfmyth209
• Burnface
• i_like_swords
• DarthAnt66
• ShootingNova
• JKBart
• NewGuy12

SirFizzWhizz (7)

• HaoAlchemist
• TheNewBlueBeetle007
• Lukehero
• cosmicallyaware1
• Higorm
• Killerwasp
• Caseiden

@i_like_swords: no problem bro, if u can, tag me for the other matches when voting time comes for them too.

@i_like_swords

I'm going to have to throw my vote in for Playa, pretty conclusively proved Tenebrous' mastery of many forms, to me at least, and aptly disproved the notion that his students would not have learned everything they did from him. Won the debate about Zannah's mind powers and pretty much everything stated about Bane and Zannah in the thread, I feel Fizz was attempting to lowball characters he himself knew little about.

In all honesty I see Playa as being the one who's actually looking at the fight objectively, since he has been happy to concede on multiple flaws in his team where Fizz carried on after being disproved, which leads me to believe the most accurate representation of this fight belonged to Playa1.

Great debate, @playa1 and @sirfizzwhizz , but that's what I came out of this thinking.

@selenial: suspicious.

XD, I calls em how I sees em. Lol

If you're calling me suspicious because I have nine (now ten) posts, then you can see me actually participating in this tournament here: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/sw-beyond-the-movies-r1-draukin-vs-selenial-1675210/?messageId=14624882#js-message-6

I don't post on ComicVine much, just blogs. I was invited here from another forum after it appeared you wouldn't have the numbers to run.

I'm going to have to lend my vote to Playa1 on this one. In my opinion, he argued his characters better, generally formed better counter-arguments, and generally demonstrated his team as superior.

He showed Tenebrous' obvious mastery of lightsaber combat and how it translated to Plagueis and Venamis. Sufficiently showed how potent Zannah was with her Sorcery, and also seemed to disprove, in my opinion, the notion that any of Fizz's team could take Bane. All around, he seemed to argue his characters better.

People with less than fifty posts does strike me odd... But I will assume integrity is important here :)

@sirfizzwhizz: Aurbere is from the SWTOR forums, he makes some respect threads over here. I believe Sel is from there as well and she's participating so, they should be fine.

@i_like_swords: Are only hardcore star wars fans allowed to vote(which is what I originally thought)?

@lukehero: Anyone can vote, although I imagine it'd be easier if you were a SW fan for the terminology etc. It's good to have more neutral voters too though.

@i_like_swords: If you want my completely unsolicited advice: you could make a voting system where true SW fans votes count as 2 and noob votes(like mine) count as 1. But, yeah thanks for letting me vote this looks fun.

@lukehero: that's a terrible idea, so far most of these votes are from non debaters, I pretty much crush Playa as far debating goes, and he's getting votes from the "SW" fans, then that's bad sign. Leave it as it is, or at the least let people with many posts, or HOFs have more say, they know what this tourney is about.

@i_like_swords: ok that sounds good then.

@sirfizzwhizz: Hmm. Sometimes an outsiders eye can be good. :D

@lukehero: outsider eye is fine, like your own, you know what to look for in a debate ;)

I'm gonna vote for PLAYA1 on this. It really is a tuff decision, and both presented their team well. But PLAYA1 seemed to look at things a bit more objectively. Knowing how SFW debates, he's usually quite direct, and follows his intuition and own view on feats, which can make him correct a number of times, but in this case it works against him. It's was definitely a good debate, both of you, but I'm voting for PLAYA1 on this. Sorry, SirFizz.

Dont aplogize bro, your right about my debate style. it works and other times does not, and if this how you feel about it this time around, thats all good man lol :)

awesome, thanks for that.

Go back to KMC. :) With your gifs

In all seriousness though, your knowledgeable, I just dont think you "debate" well at all.

True that on KMC, I did enjoy swearing on there. As for Nova...... I plead the 5th. I like the guy's knowledge, and dislike the guy's debating myself. So I will leave it at that. In fact the only "good" Debators on the Star War scene on Comicvine IMO is DCcomics, JediXman, I_Like_Swords, and I was impressed with Wolfmyth how far he came along from the first time I debated him.

Thats just me though lol.

this sums it up well. SFW gets my vote.

And @i_like_swords: just my two cents as a fellow tourney host, I think that a post limit for voting would be good.... not saying that that's what happening here, but I've seen people make alts and vote for themselves a couple times.

@playa1: @sirfizzwhizz: @i_like_swords:

Always keep in mind this is just an opinion. I'm not a Star Wars expert by any means and the only character I was familiar with was Ventress. This is just my humble opinion on this wonderful debate, it was fun. I felt like I learned a lot about Star Wars characters from this.

Grades:

Teams:

Scans/Feat Mentions:

Initial Plan:

Counters:

Stand Out Statements & Keys To Winning The Game:

Playa1:

Sirfizzwhizz:

Grade for Standout Statements:

@wollfmyth209: @haoalchemist: @thenewbluebeetle007: Thanks for voting.

@higorm@cosmicallyaware1@lukehero@tparks@juiceboks As SW fans and people I trust on votes, hope ya get a chance to read through. Thanks.

@lukehero: Thanks for the time to make a break down as always Luke.