SW Beyond The Movies R1: Caseiden vs Skillz - VOTING

Caseiden

• Antares Draco - Balance (3)
• Kenth Hamner - Balance (2)
• Valin Horn - Balance (2)
• Kam Solusar - Saber (1)
• Tionne Solusar - Balance (1)
• Aurra Sing - Balance (1)

Vs.

XSUPREMESKILLZX

• Freedon Nadd (Orbalisk) (Balanced) (5)
• Ludo Kressh (Balanced) (3)
• Aleema Keto (Force) (1 point)
• Teneb Kel (Force) (1 point)

Settings:

• In character, morals on
• Standard gear only
• Fights are to the death, knockout or incapacitation

Location:

Good luck. You have a few weeks to debate before this goes to votes, where anyone can vote providing they go into a reasonable amount of detail for who they're voting for.

@xsupremeskillzx@caseiden

I'll let Caseiden introduce his opening arguments first.

@xsupremeskillzx: @caseiden Bump

This Friday is the cut-off date for debating before I put your round to votes. When Friday hits, if you haven't already, you're only allowed to make one final post before we call it to votes. Preferably be done by Friday instead of waiting until then to finish.

tag

This match is void, I suppose, since neither posted.

@i_like_swords: I am sorry, I was arrested a week arrest I have no internet. I am sorry I return now only.

I will post great post tomorrow in 24 hours okay? Sorry. I arrested for fight on street, girlfriend of my friend was molested by one guy, we beat him on the street, and then was police. We live in bad city, there was many problems. I am sorry, post tomorrow!

.....can't really argue with that. You have a day, so does Skillz.

Oh sh!t, that's some serious business. Sorry for what happened and to me it sounds like you guys did the right thing. Look forward to seeing your post, T4V.

@i_like_swords: @thenaughtytitan: Thanks guys :) Today I relax and vote, after sleep time to my post :)

More problems with police. Here I go! Antares Draco quotes from I_LIke_Swords, thanks much!

1: Matchups

Okay. So the first thing we need to decide... Who will fight who in combat? In Star Wars usually it is strongest person vs. strongest person. People use Force Sense and they know who is the best. And they don't know strong persons slaughtering weak persons, because then it is still strong vs. strong.

If we have 3 fodder Jedi and 1 Master, and then 1 Sith Lord and 3 fodder Sith... If Master fights 3 fodder Sith, Lord fights 3 fodder Jedi. Everyone is dead and it is Master vs. Lord. So better start with Master vs. Lord, and 3 fodder vs. 3 fodder. Some fodder then have better chance... It depends who is better. You know what I mean.

I have many of proofs it is that.

1. The Clone Wars, Season 4, ending episode. Obi-Wan run to Maul, Asajj run to Savage.
2. The Clone Wars, Season 5, open episode. Obi-Wan run to Maul, Adi Gallia run to Savage Opress.
3. Rule of Two, ending chapters. Raskta Lsu, better fighter than Sarro Xaj, go vs. Bane, and Sarro Xaj vs. Zannah.
4. Revenge of the Sith. Yoda goes for Senate and Sidious, Obi-Wan vs. Anakin on Mustafar.
5. Legacy of the Force: Exile. Leia vs. Alema Rar, and Luke vs. Lumiya. The same room.

So I think Antares Draco and Valin Horn will go after Freedon Nadd. Antares is the best all areas here, and Valin is the greatest sword master in fight. I will explain why Valin is the best in special part.

Kenth Hamner and Kam Solusar will go to Ludo Kressh. The second bests.

And my females will fight Teneb Kel and Keto.

2a: Antares Draco

Okay, so Antares Draco will fight Freedon Nadd. I have proofs Antares Draco is good fighter, he is more skilled than Nadd.

1. Antares Draco is Imperial Knights Master. Imperial Knights are martial order, and rank means skill there.
2. Antares Draco have feats above Freedon Nadd in fighting. Freedon Nadd killed many, but Antares killed many too, and he killings are better pictured.
3. Antares Draco have equipment unknown to Freedon Nadd.

First point:

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights are every bit as capable in the use of the Force as their Jedi counterparts, though their training has considerably more martial focus."

"Though their numbers are small, the Imperial Knights are fully trained Force-users, with all the skills and abilities of a Jedi."

"Skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, the Imperial Knights use many of the same combat training techniques as the Jedi, and have learned to fight in many of the same lightsaber dueling styles. However, the Imperial Knights are also masters of two unique lightsaber combat forms that place greater emphasis on teamwork than one's individual prowess. The more aggressive style, known as praetoria vonil,focuses on moving quickly and striking hard. The more defensive style, known as praetoria ishu, emphasizes protecting one's allies to allow them to find openings in an opponent's defences."

And Antares Draco is highest there.

"The highest-ranking member of the Imperial Knights, Antares Draco is a powerful Force-user whose dedication to Roan Fel is second to none."

Second point:

Antares Draco fights 12 Sith at once and wins. It is on Nexus of the Dark Side, after Antares is tired from large fight. What Nadd has better than that? Nothing.

Third point:

Orbalisk armor is impenetrable, this is great thing, but Antares Draco has some advantage. He is character from later era. That means Freedon can't know anything about his equipment. Antares Draco has armor with phrik elements. Phrik is lightsaber-resistant. Electrostaffs of Magna Guards are made of freak. And electrostaffes never break in fight against Jedi in Clone Wars. He has cortosis gauntlets, and cortosis makes lightsaber turn off. Freedon can't know anything about this, he is from prievous era. Big advantage for Antares Draco.

There is problem of course. Antares Draco is very weak in Force against Nadd. He is better sword fighter, he must be very fast to fight with so many Sith at once, but he can be destroyed by the Force. So... What will Antares need?

Antares will need someone to attack Nadd too, so he can't have time to use the Force. Force is used in Star Wars rarely. You need to gesture and focus, and you can be hit in that. If you are less skilled, you worse in timing and this stuff, and if there are two better than you, you can't use Force too much. So...

2b. Valin Horn

Valin has few feats in Force, but if he and Antares keep Nadd attacked, he can't use the Force and must fight in sabering. 2 vs. 1. And Valin is the best swordfighter here.

Valin was making Caedus troubled in fight in Legacy of the Force: Fury. Valin was redeflecting blaster bolts into Caedus so much, Caedus was thinking that Jedi Mithric was blocking his strikes too much. He also said "he was losing strength". He also "didn't sense" the incoming bolt. So Darth Caedus was having problems because Valin was redirecting the bolts very good. This was unorthodox and weird tactic, very unusual, and he used that to surprise Caedus and make him think he is losing strength in fight against Mithric, and he described Mithric only as "mad fencer". :> Caedus was supressed by Valin wonderful team-fighting and had very good results with that. When Caedus redirected only one shot at Mithric, he already killed him, so Mithric was not that good... But Valin was, if beacuse of Valin support Mithric lasted so long and Caedus was troubled.

Valin Horn also was fighting his father good enough for Master Corran to not disarm him in time, and Valin managed to run away. And Corran is a great masterful swordfighter. He defeated great commander Shedao Shai of Yuuzhan Vongs, he defeated Mara in one sparring (weakened Mara, but it was still Mara) in NJO series. Valin managed to fight him long and escape.

2c. Freedon Nadd vs. Antares Draco and Valin Horn

Antares Draco was fast enough to fight with a horde of Sith at once in a Nexus after tiring escape from all Sith Temple. Valin was fast enough to supress Darth f**king Caedus, guy who fight good against Luke Skywalker with his blaster deflection. Speed will not be problem, and Antares proves he is better skilled than Nadd, and Valin too. With two of them at once, two more skillful, Freedon will not have place to use Force powers. His orbalisks armor will be problem, but Valin was tricky and intelligent enough to make such unorthodox tactic in blaster deflection. If they hit weak spot, it's over, and they are two more skilled than Nadd. Nadd will go down.

3a. Kenth Hamner

Kenth Hamner was powerful to hit Saba Sebatyne, and restrain Kyp f**king Durron in Swarm Wars. He will not have problem with Ludo power, and with Kam Solusar help he will take down Ludo. You can say that Ancient Sith have accolades from Kreia they are better than Kreia, Meetra and the rest, and Ludo was good opponent for Naga. Naga Sadow was better, he win, Ludo was pretender and died. And now Ludo is 2 vs. 1 against Kenth Hamner, who defeated two Jedi Knights without lightsaber, with melee fightings, and was holding good against Saba Sebatyne, and defeated many Yuuzhan Vong in The Unifying Force.

3b. Kam Solusar

Kam Solusar was fighting Corran Horn in Union in sparring, very hard duel, both going all out and very wet. He is at least around Corran level.

3c. Kam Solusar, Kenth Hamner vs. Ludo Kressh

Okay, we can say Ludo Kressh is good because he contends with Naga Sadow who should be better than Meetra Surik in fighting. Ludo Kressh also have epic strength. But strength is not that useful 2 vs. 1, you can't overpower too much, because you can't use your strength focusely on one person. And Kenth Hamner is somewhere around, Kam Solusar too, and it is 2 vs. 1. Both are offensive, so no problem like Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan, where Obi-Wan defensive. They will both press him at once. And Kenth Hamner can resist any power of Ludo.

4. Aurra Sing vs. Teneb Kel

No contest man. Aurra fought Caedus for a long time in duel. Caedus didn't overpower her in duel, he didn't use Force because he didn't do want to scare his daughter, but he was fighting full lightsaber. Aurra hold her own there. She was taken from surprise by sneak attack of this child... But understandable, because she was giving her all to fight Caedus. She was good enough to fight long time against him. She was fighting against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan TPM equal, and stunned them and escaped. She is too much for Teneb.

5. Tionne Solusar vs. Aleema Keto

So Tionne is fodder, but she is Jedi Master and Archivist. She has great knowledge, she was recording most of content in book "Jedi vs. Sith" about everything on Force and Sith. She will know about illusions and magic and try to resist long enough for Aurra to help before it is done. She survived attack from Serpa and loosing all limbs lol. She is durable and she can wait through. She knows what Aleema is doing, so she will stall her. In "I, Jedi" she thinks she is weak, so she knows to rely on rest and just wait.

So this is how I think all. Your move! @xsupremeskillzx

You have 24 hours to reply or Caseiden goes through by default.

@caseiden: Sorry for being afk for a week or more, just been busy with other things. Feats regarding Queen Amanoa and King Ommin are credited to @i_like_swords. Anyways:

1: Freedon Nadd's Dominance

My stance regarding how my team defeats yours is that no one on your team can hope to stand up to Freedon Nadd individually. To fully comprehend the nature and extent of Nadd's power, you'd have to first look at powerhouses King Ommin and Queen Amanoa. As far as Amanoa goes, she has:

• Defeated Ulic Qel Droma along with Tott Doneeta and other non force users utilizing waves of darkness.
• Sapped the will of the Onderonian beast riders, sowing fear and confusion within their ranks.

King Ommin, on the other hand, has:

• Permeated Onderon with dark side energy.
• Sapped the energies of a jedi strike team including the Droma Brothers and Nomi Sunrider.
• Overpowered Arca Jeth with the force and binded him with sorcery, keeping said bindings until Ommin's death.
• Decisively overpowered Nomi Sunrider's battle meditation with his own power, despite her being able to influence armies as well as overpower Aleema Keto's will while the latter was in a meditation sphere.

These characters are relevant when discussing Nadd's power because they directly inherited the entirety of their powers from a portion of Nadd's own power. When Nadd withdrew the strength he had granted to them, they instantaneously withered and died. Essentially, the entirety of their powers are but a portion of Nadd's, even as a spirit. That said, not only would Nadd in his physical form be more powerful, but the orbalisks would offer a tremendous boost to his raw power and physical strength/speed. Furthermore, this would grant him nigh invulnerability, making Nadd almost impossible to kill. And if there's any extra doubt in regards to Nadd's power:

"He only needed time to become the greatest sith sorcerer that had ever existed, and then he would return to take his revenge on the jedi."

"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all Jedi and Sith force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient holocrons and tomes."

Ultimately, this all points to the fact that no one on your team stands a ghost of a chance against Orbalisk Nadd alone, and even the duo of Antares Draco and Valin Horn would be swiftly dealt with.

2: Ludo Kressh

Ludo Kressh is a fairly underrated character due a lack of showings, but those he has, along with his hype, paint him as an immensely powerful sith lord. Ludo's feats include:

• Destroying a huge stone statue with telekinesis by clenching his fist.
• Matching/holding his own against Naga Sadow, a legendary sith lord who's fighting ability and style was revered and mimicked over 1000 years after his death by TOR Sith Marauders.
• Mindf*cking the Exile with illusions in his tomb while only his mere life force was still present:

"Buried under a mountain of rock at the back of the Shyrack Cave, this ancient tomb conceals a great evil power. Ludo Kressh, Sith Lord, is buried here, and his life force still haunts the halls and passages."

Again, his feats aren't numerous, but they remain very impressive and imply he is incredibly talented in the force. As for his hype, Ludo is stated to be infinitely more proficient in combat than the likes of the Jedi Exile and Darth Traya by Darth Traya herself, which according to Avellone is an accurate prediction/statement. This shows that Ludo is more than capable of, at the absolute worst, holding off Kenth and Kam, if not outright defeat them.

3: Aurra Sing vs. Teneb Kel

Admittedly, Sing's feat against Caedus is relatively inconsistent given both the other feats of Caedus/Aurra. That said, I think you're also shortchanging Kel a bit here. He's powerful enough to create a 100+ foot bridge of rubble with TK while dangling off a ledge in the vacuum of space, (credit to SirFizzWhizz for scans:)

He also frequently utilizes force lightning, destroying a metal stasis tank with a burst of lightning and injuring a Lenico Beast with the same. Even if Kel is ultimately defeated by Aurra, it would require a relatively lengthy battle to do so. By the time Kel is cornered or in danger of dying, Nadd will be finished with Draco and Horn to come help.

4. Tionne vs. Keto

As you said, Tionne is relative fodder, even admitting her own weakness. Keto, while probably the weakest member on my team as well, would most likely defeat Tionne. Considering her prowess with force blasts, (reducing a man to a charred skeleton with a relatively casual blast,) and her mastery of illusions, (While her best illusion feats occur within the meditation sphere, she still has the feats of casually stomping fodder with them and what not,) I'd wager they stalemate at the absolute least.

Conclusion

While Tionne vs. Keto, Kel vs. Aurra, and possible even Kam/Kenth vs. Ludo can be argued as good fights, It's Orbalisk Nadd vs. Draco and Valin that tips this battle in my team's favor. Nadd's already dominant force powers combined with the vastly enhanced strength, speed, durability, and invulnerability of the orbalisks will allow him to destroy both Draco and Valin, and help the rest of his teammates who require aid. Your move.

@caseiden: @xsupremeskillzx: Opening votes now. They'll close alongside the other matches.

@darthmanhunter@jacthripper@higorm@cosmicallyaware1@darthant66@dedmanwalkin@thenewbluebeetle007@aurbere

- Tagged for votes at request.

@burnface@juiceboks@laflux@shootingnova@wollfmyth209@sirfizzwhizz@banthabot@draukin@playa1@dccomicsrule2011@jkbart@thevivas@selenial

- Participants

You guys and anyone else who wants to can vote on this match, providing:

• You are impartial
• You vote based solely on the content of the thread from the two debaters, without considering your own knowledge/views on the characters
• You give at least a sentence or two explaining why you voted for the user of your choice

Based on what is seen here, within these two posts, I will vote for @caseiden pretty obviously. Within what is presented here, Caseiden's argument is more solid.

First of all, when regarding Freedon Nadd, Caseiden focused on the idea that under combative pressure Freedon won't have the necessary time and space for direct Force usage. This is a very good idea, albeit it was supported by the author very briefly, not as largely and convincingly, as it could be done. He demonstrated Valin's and Antares's superiority as duelists, and used the Caedus fight in a... pretty weird, but actually interesting and refreshing light. What obviously caught my attention there, was that it was some larger analysis of the feat, different than the usual, simple comparisons of encyclopedic fight. It was a point I could, I think, easily debate, but was convincing in that it was refreshing. Skillz's response was focused on how Freedon is far more powerful, but it didn't help in any way. His argument didn't refer to the idea of Force usage prevention in a 2 vs. 1 situation. Simply put, Caseiden opted to start with the idea how Freedon's Force advantage is nullified by other parties, while Skillz misaddressed the point and simply started refering Freedon's power itself, which in no way serves to counter Caseiden's point. This part is totally in favor of Caseiden.

In terms of Ludo Kressh and the other two, both participants did good. Caseiden had better, more logical explanation on his take on 2 vs. 1 situation, and shorter arguments about the characters himself. Skillz did here better, providing better line of thought; the one improper argument about Ludo's influence on Exile (simply because it was the nexus of his tomb itself, there was no mention of Ludo himself anywhere, and the Korriban in itself was a great nexus, etc.) was nowhere rebutted obviously, and it didn't destroy his case in any way. A draw.

Aurra vs. Teneb is a different thing. Caseiden provided more content, more depictions of Aurra's combative capability and analyzed them properly (although, again, too briefly) to ensure their legitimacy. Caseiden provided simply the more convincing case for someone with no outside knowledge.

Tionne vs. Keto is too little of a case to be of value. Caseiden presented a broader knowledge of his character, using the narrative of the book and the nature of its content to support the notion of Tionne's potential preparation, but that's it.

Quoted for truth, my vote goes to @caseiden

My vote goes to @caseiden . He had more solid points with a better layout of the battle, IMO.