#1 Edited by Esquire (3827 posts) - - Show Bio

Team @sovereign91001 Spiders

  • Spider-Man
  • Spider-Girl (Mayday)
  • Scarlet Spider (Kaine)

Team @dextersinister McCool Swords

  • Deathstroke
  • Zealot
  • Nemesis

Rules:

  • In character
  • Win by Death, KO, BFR, or Incapacitation
  • Team Chemistry does come into play
  • No Prep
  • All DC Characters are Pre-52, but Post-52 Feats can be used in most cases
  • All Marvel Characters are Current unless otherwise specified
  • Standard Gear unless otherwise specified
  • Nemesis' Forcefield is limited to the size of Cap's Shield
  • Location is unpopulated
  • Contestants start on the bridge at opposite ends.
#2 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

This isn't a true response just a lazy one I'll give until I have some basic info from Sovereign and we can get the battle underway.

My team walks up and stabs the other guys, stabbity, stabbity.

#3 Edited by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: What info do you need?

I am not overly familiar with the Spider man comics but the character Kaine's powers seem to be all over the place and change frequently. He was listed as a 30 tonner who went up against 3 spider men, is that still the case?

#5 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Nah, those were his old abilites Kaine currently has around Spider-Man level Strength, retractable stingers, organic webbing and Night vision. A stealth suit that grants a cloak. He has the mark of Kaine but no Spider-Sense. He has a 'spider form' where he get's stronger, gains claws and fangs and grows spider like limbs.

#6 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Nah, those were his old abilites Kaine currently has around Spider-Man level Strength, retractable stingers, organic webbing and Night vision. A stealth suit that grants a cloak. He has the mark of Kaine but no Spider-Sense. He has a 'spider form' where he get's stronger, gains claws and fangs and grows spider like limbs.

That's fine.

#7 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

Deathstroke: Nth armor / 2 handguns high impact shots / promethium sword / jet pack / grappling gun / thermal charges

Zealot: armoured vest with bare midriff?!? / Kusar blade / handguns same

Nemesis: stealth suit / creation blades / meta grenades switched to thermal for fairness / handguns same.

The golden gate bridge is long so I may as well make this simple to start, when my team gets in comic book handgun range of your team they will open fire unless you take any unorthodox actions.

Neither team knows anything about the other so I assume they are your typical hero group with matching pyjamas and the group uses gun fire to learn of their capabilities if possible.

@sovereign91001

#8 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: I think Deathstroke's Nth Metal Armor is above durability limits; he survived having a Submarine dropped on his head.

As for my team I guess I'll start with gear:

Mayday: Stinger's, web shooters.

Peter: Freeze Pellets, Magnetic, Acid & Standard Webbing. For the non-standard piece of equipment I'll have Spidey decked out in his armor from Spider-Man # 656 aka Spider-Man Armor 2.0:

Kaine: Stealth suit.

Since the Golden Gate span is almost 9000 feet from end to end your team is going to have some distance to traverse, even with their Superhuman powers and all, it should take them at least a minute The night sky is no issue for anyone on my team: May and Peter can fight blinded and Kaine has natural night vision.

We'll start off with Kaine activating his Stealth suit and getting up to the first gap on the next closest tower in front of my team. While cloaked he's undetectable by sound or sight. The second your team opens fire he's going to leap down and web her and toss Zealot off the bridge. May and Peter will close in, now given Zealot's durability I have no doubt she'll survive but she's been removed from the battlefield. Your team no doubt wondering what the hell happened will be caught flatfooted they shouldn't remain that way for too long given who they are but it'll be long enough to get the job done for my team.

The default webbing in the Spider Armor 2.0 is magnetic which in addition to doing what it says on the label blocks radio signals. Spider-Man will take on Slade and Spider-Girl & Kaine will go after Nemesis.

Now regardless if Slade is using Promethium or Nth Metal Spidey's going to get him in a cocoon of magnetic webbing. Given that both are metals and in addition to the strength of his webbing, Slade should effectively be neutralized (pinned down due to magnetics).

That leaves Nemesis, between the three of them, their speed, agility, May and Peter's Spider-Sense and webbing she should go down too.

#9 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001:I avoided listing non standard equipment as I assumed we need the ok from Esquire, the suit is also outright bullet proof so against the rules.

Esquire is aware of his suit. It has excellent durability against physical blunt trauma but has merely slowed swords, a mere handgun at point blank has also wounded him.

My team also has enhanced senses across the board so the battlefield shouldn't be a problem.

I was hoping you would send Kaine ahead but I didn't want to make any assumptions. Nemesis is an empath and is able to visualize how people will attack before they have even reacted and can pinpoint locations from long distances, she has been capable of gunning down 3 men within the air using her empathy alone, coincidentally all of them where riding stealth bikes which had practically the same effect as the suit, it will be even easier to locate Kaine on a deserted bridge as there is no bystanders nearby to occupy her empathic radar, without warning Kaine will suddenly be gunned down in midair.

Below is the best example that represents how she visualizes attacks with her empathy.

An example of how fast she is below but take into account Kaine did not expect her to be aware of his attack, his speed does not come close to Majestics and as I've said before he will be in midair without the ability of flight.

Assuming everything works out in my teams favour I will attempt to end this in an unusual manner. Deathstroke is very well versed in the hero mentality and has exploited it on numerous occasions from there spider motif costumes, teen sidekick and non lethal weaponry they fit the bill of a bunch of do-gooders.

As his job is merely to hold the bridge he will offer to let them take their possibly still living comrade and leave. He has let heroes live before as long as he believed they wouldn't interfere with the job. So what will be your teams reaction to this offer if it gets that far?

#10 Edited by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Even caught unaware and without the benefit of a Spider-Sense Kaine has dodged Sniper fire point blank. He's also in midair been able to avoid sub and full machine gun fire from multiple shooters (I'll put some scans up soon) avoiding a pair of pistols shouldn't be a problem.

That scan of Nemesis and Majestic looks impressive but: first off there's no way to tell how fast Majestic was flying and I gaurentee you he wasn't using even a fraction of his top speed and from the distance they were apart (~10 feet) he couldn't have gotten up that much speed. Second she can't be any faster than Kaine due to the tournament rules Spider-Man (and by extension Kaine) is the ceiling of speed. So even if she was faster than him to begin with her speed is capped at his level.

I had Kaine going after Zealot anyway but since you've put Nemesis' attention onto attacking Kaine she's left herself vulnerable to be attacked by Spider-Girl. Spider-Man will still engage Deathstroke.

Now if @esquire rules that my Spider Armor is over the limit, I'll remove it but I don't see how Nth metal while not violating the bullet rule does go way over Cage's general durability is alright but my armor (who's greatest feat btw is survivng a grenade) isn't.

Edit: Post 777= Lucky post :)

#11 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: I'll need those scans and they will need to be incredibly impressive as there is multiple points against him, he has his attention turned towards Zealot, bullet dodging at this level is reacting to the shooter she has comparable reflexes and with her empathy is reacting to where he is going to be not where he is so has a massive edge, her skill should dwarf the previous shooters as she has been using handguns before mankind had even invented them, he is in midair so has no leverage to change direction and finally Zealot and Nemesis have been training together for hundreds if not thousands of years and is well aware of her ability so she will quickly join in with gunplay or swordplay.

Nemesis was able to do that with a combination of enhanced reflexes, superior training and most importantly her empathic ability.

As stated earlier you said they where hanging back until he had leapt down which is when they open fire, the distance they are at is at comic book standard military grade handgun range and as I'll point out again

she will not be surprised.

The Nth metal's best confirmed durability feat is surviving an explosion, you never actually see the Sub drop on his head and the next issue has him in the ocean when the Sub was being thrown at the dock in the previous issue.

#12 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: One more point to add to the list before I switch off for the day, Peter has had trouble dodging bullets without his sense and Kaine isn't as skilled as Peter.

#13 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister:

bullet dodging at this level is reacting to the shooter she has comparable reflexes and with her empathy is reacting to where he is going to be not where he is so has a massive edge, her skill should dwarf the previous shooters as she has been using handguns before mankind had even invented them,

I disagree for a couple reasons. One her reflexes may allow her to acquire a target faster but the bullet is traveling at the same speed regardless of how fast she acquires her target. Two she's limited to the firing cap of the pistol, so even if she's burning through all her ammo with both pistols she can only get so many rounds down range. And generally speaking pistols have a much lower firing cap compared to automatic weapons Which Kaine has dodged before.

he is in midair so has no leverage to change direction.

He doesn't need leverage, he can flip, twist and spiral, in addition to that he has webbing if he absolutely needed to alter his path of descent.

and finally Zealot and Nemesis have been training together for hundreds if not thousands of years and is well aware of her ability so she will quickly join in with gunplay or swordplay.

That's cool but she's firing blind; Kaine is cloaked.

Peter has had trouble dodging bullets without his sense and Kaine isn't as skilled as Peter.

That's mainly because over his career Peter has developed a dependdency on his Spider-Sense, so when it's taken away or supressed he's at a large disadvantage (he was recently over to compensate that with training). As for Kaine he's not less skilled than Peter, he just has a different set of skills then Peter; he was a former hit-man for instance and his fighting style is more direct than Peter's. Anywho his lack of Spider-Sense has translated to him getting shot one time during the entire Scarlet Spider run thus far, he's also quite a bit more durable than Peter with an almost Wolverine level of pain tolerance.

Scans:

First up Kaine catching an arrow from behind, getting his chest cut open, shot and not slowing down.

Next up Kaine dodging machine gun fire in mid-air

Kaine dodging lightning

And finally getting stabbed and electrocuted.

#14 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: As I've stated earlier bullet dodging at this level is reacting to the shooter as a bullets speed is far beyond that of anyone allowed in this tournament, what would he be reacting to if he where to dodge a character who he believes can't see him when he is focused on someone else? and if he somehow reacted to her slight arm movements in his direction from someone with incredible reflexes he would be reacting to trigger pulls and the speed of a bullet.

You said that he could use webbing to alter his path but he has his shooters focused on Zealot so he would need to aim for something else entirely, the webs would need to hit that target and then yank him out of his momentum in the time it takes her to pull a trigger and a bullet that travels at twice the speed of sound to reach him, if webbing traveled at close to a bullets speed it would kill or cripple people.

How does the cloak stand up to tears from bullets and Zealot could react to the the where Nemesis is aiming adding to the danger zone.

Unlike Spider Man Kaine is listed as having no formal training and you seem to be in the vast minority of Spider Man fans as Kaine has a fraction of the experience of Spider Man being a clone and has a handful of fights against individuals of this level.

The first scan is an arrow

The machine gun fire has him reacting against mook opponents who he is fully aware of and he has the ability to push himself off the floor to begin with.

A lightning dude who he is aware of and again is on the ground. Who is the lightning guy?

None of your scans come close to the scenario you have placed him in.

Pain tolerance is fine but I doubt that would help when he is diving towards the best swords fighter in the Wildstorm universe with bullet wounds and a blood smeared stealth suit.

Another example below of Nemesis reacting to Grifter possibly the greatest shooter in the Wildstorm universe.

#15 Posted by Esquire (3827 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister @sovereign91001

I don't really have a problem with the 2.0 Armor. Spidey even said it hurt when bullets hit it. And about non-standard gear, each character is allowed one piece of non-standard gear that they've used before, as long as it doesn't break any limits.

#16 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@dextersinister @sovereign91001

I don't really have a problem with the 2.0 Armor. Spidey even said it hurt when bullets hit it. And about non-standard gear, each character is allowed one piece of non-standard gear that they've used before, as long as it doesn't break any limits.

All I have from the wiki's are him expressing discomfort when being hit. In the scan below you see bullets just bounce off the armour

and the armour was selected after the match up had been selected with a non standard webbing that seems to be able to one shot a specific character.

#17 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: Just continue as normal until Esquire gets back to us as we technically haven't even reached the part where the other 4 are properly utilized so the armour isn't currently a factor.

#18 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: Magnetic webbing btw is part of Spidey's standard gear post Big Time. So are all the other things I listed: freeze pellets and acid webbing. The only non-standard piece of equipment I selected was the armor.

I have some stuff to do today but I'll be back in a couple hours to post something just wanted to clear that point up though.

#19 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: Fortunately for me none of their materials are ferromagnetic.

#20 Edited by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister: As I've stated earlier bullet dodging at this level is reacting to the shooter as a bullets speed is far beyond that of anyone allowed in this tournament.

Not true, Spider-Man has caught bullets twice that I'm aware off. He's also dodged bullets well after they've been fired and since he's the ceiling in terms of speed, reacting to bullets is definetly on the table for Kaine.

You said that he could use webbing to alter his path but he has his shooters focused on Zealot so he would need to aim for something else entirely, the webs would need to hit that target and then yank him out of his momentum in the time it takes her to pull a trigger and a bullet that travels at twice the speed of sound to reach him

Twice the speed of sound? To my knowledge most pistol rounds are subsonic, what you're talking about sounds like rifle speed. Now Kaine like Spidey's reflexes are around 40 times faster than a normal human.

But for the sake of argument let's use your number Mach 2 is about 2,200 fps now to bring that to their reaction speed divided that by a factor of 40 and your left with 55 fps, that equates to 37.5 mph. So to a person with their level of reflexes a bullet (moving twice the speed of sound) is moving (relative to their reaction speed) slower than a baseball. Given that it's no wonder Spider-Man and other characters with Spider powers generally dance around bullets like they're moving in slow motion. I say all that to say it is highly unlikely that given his reactions and agility Kaine is going to get tagged. Now I can here you asking; Hey Sovereign If Kaine can move so fast why was he shot before? And the answer is: The gunman could teleport.

How does the cloak stand up to tears from bullets and Zealot could react to the the where Nemesis is aiming adding to the danger zone.

Well he was shot and slashed before he engaged the cloak in my earlier scans so It doesn't affect the cloak. And as for Zealot I don't buy that and I'll get into that in a minute.

what would he be reacting to if he where to dodge a character who he believes can't see him when he is focused on someone else? and if he somehow reacted to her slight arm movements in his direction from someone with incredible reflexes he would be reacting to trigger pulls and the speed of a bullet.

Since you haven't said otherwise I'm going to assume your characters are relatively close together (~5 feet or so), I'm also going to assume they have their firearms drawn since they are in a combat situation, I'm going to take another assumptoion and say she's probably tracking her gun looking for her opponents. Kaine has picked his target (Zealot), he leaps at her cloaked, Nemesis with her psychic ability senses him and raises her gun to fire. Now unless Kaine is so completely focused on Zealot that he's blocked out everything else going on around him (that would be very dumb of him as he's leaping into the midst of three armed opponents without a spider-sense) he's going to notice Nemesis raising her gun.

At best Nemesis is as fast as him (the jury is still out on this imo.) and as I showed above reacting to the bullets is completely in Kaine's ability. Meanwhile Zealot's going to be wondering what's gotten into Nemesis and why she's emptying her guns at thin air. That seems much more likely than her aiming her gun and blindly firing at something she can't see. Now if you'd had Nemesis shout out a warning or something I could buy it, but from Zealot's P.O.V Nemesis is firing at nothing, they don't know what their opponents are capable of, she might even assume Nemesis is under some kind of mind control or under attack mentally and try and either talk to her or disarm her. Anyway you slice it, there's confusion and that plays into my team's hands.

Not to mention the second Nemesis opens fire my team is going to be on the move.

Pain tolerance is fine but I doubt that would help when he is diving towards the best swords fighter in the Wildstorm universe with bullet wounds and a blood smeared stealth suit.

He's been shot and had his chest slashed open and kept fighting at full capacity so I'd say it's definetly a factor in this equation since you're claiming Nemesis can tag him.

Unlike Spider Man Kaine is listed as having no formal training and you seem to be in the vast minority of Spider Man fans as Kaine has a fraction of the experience of Spider Man being a clone and has a handful of fights against individuals of this level.

Kaine spent years tracking Ben Riley, killing as a hitman etc. Peter's got him beat in experience in being a Superhero. But despite that experience advantage Kaine's shown the ability to fight Ben and Peter at the same time, Ben, Peter and Spidercide, kill Doc Ock, One shot Rhino etc. Kaine's experience or lack thereof is a non-factor.

The machine gun fire has him reacting against mook opponents who he is fully aware of and he has the ability to push himself off the floor to begin with.

He flips over gun fire and lands on the console (dodging gunfire in mid-air), I don't know what you mean.

A lightning dude who he is aware of and again is on the ground. Who is the lightning guy?

Living Lightning.

Fortunately for me none of their materials are ferromagnetic

I'm going to need proof of that.

#21 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: @sovereign91001: Do you have scans or even links of him catching bullets so I can see what he was reacting to, if it was the sound of bullet being fired then that means he had already been hit, most likely it was his danger sense something Kaine doesn't have.

The scan says that it can be as much as 40 times that as a normal person, that is at his best, his spider sense is listed as being a major factor in regards to his reflexes accelerating how he moves by pumping adrenaline and stimulating the muscles in that area which again is something Kaine doesn't have.

It would actually be 38.05 mph, every little helps. Hand guns of this level no longer use standard bullets, standard handgun bullets would be shattered by the force at which they are launched from the gun. The draw back is the recoil which is a non factor for these characters.

Once again I must highlight the situation he is in and give a better analogy as the baseball feels inappropriate. How hard would it be for a man mid fall to dodge between 10-12 thrown baseballs as he is falling in that direction when he is only aware mid fall and even then he may not be aware? and baseballs are lowballing when as I said earlier he doesn't have the reflexive advantage of Peters spider sense.

You have made too many assumptions a better idea would have been to describe how the situation has played out so far and base their reactions from there.

//My characters are approaching yours and Kaine is watching this from above believing he is invisible to them but Nemesis is aware of his location.

//My characters take shots at your 2 visible characters then Kaine jumps down from his position towards Zealot while aiming for her.

//I didn't mention pacing but we will base it on the width of the bridge, taking into account spacing for maneuverability but giving the same distance between the edges to avoid ambush they would be about 16 or 33 feet between them but I will assume Zealot would closer to Nemesis at 16 feet.

//Again Kaine has launched himself at Zealot believing he is invisible to everyone below. Nemesis pictures within her mind his actions and takes shots at him. Kaine is moving towards the bullets and Zealot will quickly catch on to what is going on because there first encounter together for thousands of years coincidentally had opponents utilizing stealth tech and she is aware there is a third opponent who is suspiciously absent she has reacted without looking depending on instinct and training countless times before. If there is any confusion it will be between your lot considering that their plan his just gone tits up.

Actually in the earlier scans the artist has removed the slash in that period and only returns it at the end but even then they show the blood being washed away in the pool.

He gets shot once in the arm and he's seen holding it, he takes that stab and lets out a sigh of pain. Not very impressive when Zealot has taken machine gun fire and simply not reacted. Her opponents are the same race as Zealot with thousands of years experience and trained by Zealot herself.

You are using the fight between multiple Spider Men as an example despite you yourself saying that he no longer has the advantages he had there. Is Kaine still wiling to kill he seemed willing to kill Zealot if so then why is he on the same team as the other 2?

You see him dodging fire simply by moving in the opposite direction that the mooks are strafing, he has simply pushed himself away from oncoming fire that he was aware was coming.

Most metals aren't ferromagnetic, it's just that the commonly used metals steel and Iron are. Steel because there is iron within it. Steel is one of the most common metals in the world but the ultra rare metals used by my characters have properties more along the lines of those that have a very weak magnetic field. Just in case you where thinking you shouldn't use Magneto as an example of whats ferromagnetic as he can manipulate the chemical bonds and manipulate nonferrous metals.

#22 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: Normally I wouldn't focus so much on a single attack, these are bullets, heroes dodge them all the time in normal circumstances but you just happened to place one of your characters in an OH SHIT! moment.

I am going to summarize why I think it hits him for future reference.

Why it shouldn't hit him

// he has dodged bullets before

// he has enhanced reflexes to a high degree being a clone of Spiderman

why it should hit him.

// he is jumping in the gunners direction so momentum is against him carrying him towards the bullets.d

// he is focused on someone else and although he may notice the shooters actions it is a moment where every fraction counts.

// he has no leverage he is in midair

// his shooter has experience far beyond that of anyone he has ever faced including that guy that tagged his arm in the scan you provided who he was aware of.

// his shooter also has incredibly fast reflexes byond that of peak human which is very rare for gun wielding characters in Marvel.

// that shooter has a reflexive advantage as they are reacting with empathy utilizing what your character is going to do.

#23 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio

why it should hit him.

// he is jumping in the gunners direction so momentum is against him carrying him towards the bullets.d

// he is focused on someone else and although he may notice the shooters actions it is a moment where every fraction counts.

Covered this a couple times.

// he has no leverage he is in midair

He doesn't need it to maneuver in the air, as I said earlier he can flip, spin, etc add that to his greater than human flexability and he shouldn't have a problem here.

// his shooter has experience far beyond that of anyone he has ever faced including that guy that tagged his arm in the scan you provided who he was aware of.

Aware of? The guy teleported in and got the drop on him.

// his shooter also has incredibly fast reflexes byond that of peak human which is very rare for gun wielding characters in Marvel. While that may allow her to acquire the target faster, it has no effect on the bullets speed and those speeds are reactable for him.

// that shooter has a reflexive advantage as they are reacting with empathy utilizing what your character is going to do. The only advantage she has is that she knows his general whereabouts, I haven't seen a reflexive one.

@sovereign91001: @sovereign91001: Do you have scans or even links of him catching bullets so I can see what he was reacting to, if it was the sound of bullet being fired then that means he had already been hit, most likely it was his danger sense something Kaine doesn't have.

Now before you say Ah ha! He only caught one of those bullets! Spidey was sick at the time and his powers were failing him, so he wasn't even at full fighting capacity. Neither time was the sound, but the bullet itself, reacting to a bullet shouldn't be above Kaine either.

It would actually be 38.05 mph, every little helps. Hand guns of this level no longer use standard bullets, standard handgun bullets would be shattered by the force at which they are launched from the gun. The draw back is the recoil which is a non factor for these characters.

I'd like to see proof (in the form of scans) that these character's handgun rounds are as fast as you claim, as I said before most handgun bullets are sub sonic so that 38.05 gets slashed in half at least to 19.025 mph (making it mach 1 relative to his reflexes) and likely even less than that. Bullets aren't going to be a problem for him to dodge; even mid-air.

Once again I must highlight the situation he is in and give a better analogy as the baseball feels inappropriate. How hard would it be for a man mid fall to dodge between 10-12 thrown baseballs as he is falling in that direction when he is only aware mid fall and even then he may not be aware?

Well you also need to factor in the fact that the man in question has enhanced flexability far greater than any normal man.

and baseballs are lowballing when as I said earlier he doesn't have the reflexive advantage of Peters spider sense.

Lowballing was not the intent, so use whatever analogy you feel is appropriate, the point I was trying to make is that the bullets are unlikely to hit him As their speed relative to him is much slower than they are perceived by normal humans.

You have made too many assumptions a better idea would have been to describe how the situation has played out so far and base their reactions from there.

//My characters are approaching yours and Kaine is watching this from above believing he is invisible to them but Nemesis is aware of his location.

//My characters take shots at your 2 visible characters then Kaine jumps down from his position towards Zealot while aiming for her.

//I didn't mention pacing but we will base it on the width of the bridge, taking into account spacing for maneuverability but giving the same distance between the edges to avoid ambush they would be about 16 or 33 feet between them but I will assume Zealot would closer to Nemesis at 16 feet.

//Again Kaine has launched himself at Zealot believing he is invisible to everyone below. Nemesis pictures within her mind his actions and takes shots at him. Kaine is moving towards the bullets and Zealot will quickly catch on to what is going on because there first encounter together for thousands of years coincidentally had opponents utilizing stealth tech and she is aware there is a third opponent who is suspiciously absent she has reacted without looking depending on instinct and training countless times before. If there is any confusion it will be between your lot considering that their plan his just gone tits up.

So she's taking shots at Peter and May and she looks away from the moving bouncing targets to fire at a blank stretch of air because he comrade is firing at it?

That is very very tactically unsound for a trained warrior taking her eyes off a current and known threat to fire on what looks like empty air as she's left herself vulnerable to attack. Now you talk about her instincts and training and all that good stuff given that it seems highly unlikely she'd do what your purposing. Now given that you said these character's Zealot and Nemesis have known each other for a thousand years and have worked together extensively that makes the scenario even more unlikely; Unless Zealot has some kind of complex it is much more likely she'd trust her partner to work out whatever she was firing on or as I said earlier she might be concerned that she's firing into what appears to be empty air.

And Again unless Kaine is the biggest moron on the planet when he's leaping into a pack of enemies he's not going to be so focused on one target that he isn't paying attention to his surroundings. I mean think about this for a second. He had a precognitive danger sense before that's now gone, if anything he would be extra vigilant to his surroundings. Not leap around willy-nilly and focus on one character to the point that he wasn't paying attention to his surroundings.

Actually in the earlier scans the artist has removed the slash in that period and only returns it at the end but even then they show the blood being washed away in the pool.

Okay, well that's artist error; the sequence of events showed he was still slashed and shot before he engaged his cloak.

He gets shot once in the arm and he's seen holding it, he takes that stab and lets out a sigh of pain. Not very impressive when Zealot has taken machine gun fire and simply not reacted. Her opponents are the same race as Zealot with thousands of years experience and trained by Zealot herself.

I wasn't aware we were comparing pain tolerance between our character's, I was saying that Kaine's been shot and had his chest slashed open and continued to fight at full capacity and that it was relevant to you saying Nemesis can tag him. As if he's been shot his combat ability will come into question. Now while Zealot's pain tolerance is interesting and might factor into this battle later it ultimately has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

You are using the fight between multiple Spider Men as an example despite you yourself saying that he no longer has the advantages he had there. Is Kaine still wiling to kill he seemed willing to kill Zealot if so then why is he on the same team as the other 2?

We're not talking about advantage you brought up his experience, I elaborated on it to show that he does have experience in fighting super powered individuals. Yes Kaine is willing to kill and despite their differing moral code, Kaine and Spider-Man have teamed before with no issue (the last time was during Spider-Island), I forsee none here.

You see him dodging fire simply by moving in the opposite direction that the mooks are strafing, he has simply pushed himself away from oncoming fire that he was aware was coming.

Well I disagree, to me it reads he's flipping through the air lands on the console, pushes off of it and takes out the guards, but since we can't agree I guess we'll let the voters decide.

Most metals aren't ferromagnetic, it's just that the commonly used metals steel and Iron are. Steel because there is iron within it. Steel is one of the most common metals in the world but the ultra rare metals used by my characters have properties more along the lines of those that have a very weak magnetic field. Just in case you where thinking you shouldn't use Magneto as an example of whats ferromagnetic as he can manipulate the chemical bonds and manipulate nonferrous metals.

I wasn't going to bring Magneto into this discussion but I'd like some scans backing what you're claiming. Otherwise I'm going to work from the point of view that your metals can be affected by Spidey's magnetic webbing.

#24 Edited by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@dextersinister said:

Covered this a couple times.

Yes we did, I did say I was referencing past posts after all I was just nice enough to list the advantages he has rather than just the disadvantages

He doesn't need it to maneuver in the air, as I said earlier he can flip, spin, etc add that to his greater than human flexability and he shouldn't have a problem here.

Flipping in middair isn't going to be that useful when your shooter is capable of predicting your movements and your still restricted by momentum, you are limited as you are in midair working against your own center of mass without leverage.

Aware of? The guy teleported in and got the drop on him.

Good catch the guy who teleported behind him and shouted out gotcha who he was looking right at before he fired and still got tagged, a bullet would reach a man by the time he heard that gotcha.

While that may allow her to acquire the target faster, it has no effect on the bullets speed and those speeds are reactable for him.

Only reactable if we say his reflexes are equal to Peter at his best which his highly unlikely as Peter has spider sense to augment his reaction and even then he is moving towards the bullets so the calculations are schewed further in my favour.

The only advantage she has is that she knows his general whereabouts, I haven't seen a reflexive one.

Actually you have

and it's even more impressive than it looks as that's a teleporting speedster who travels at supersonic speeds

@dextersinister said:

@sovereign91001:

Now before you say Ah ha! He only caught one of those bullets! Spidey was sick at the time and his powers were failing him, so he wasn't even at full fighting capacity. Neither time was the sound, but the bullet itself, reacting to a bullet shouldn't be above Kaine either.


I expected that bullet catching feat but then again Spider Man has Spider Sense which is something I've already pointed out numerous, do you have any feats of Kaine catching bullets so they can be compared.

I was looking for something similar to the situation you had put him not another scan where he is out reacting mook opponents.

I'd like to see proof (in the form of scans) that these character's handgun rounds are as fast as you claim, as I said before most handgun bullets are sub sonic so that 38.05 gets slashed in half at least to 19.025 mph (making it mach 1 relative to his reflexes) and likely even less than that. Bullets aren't going to be a problem for him to dodge; even mid-air.

You've already shown a scan of him getting tagged by a relative nobody within the Marvel universe who cries out gotcha before he fires. The best commercial handgun bullet in the world travelled at 3000 ft/s nearly 25 years ago in the real world which I would still be willing to work with. Deathstroke has his own personal weaponsmith who as comic book standard is a prodigy in the field and has been contracted to take down the enhanced on a majority of his assignments utilizing comic book level technology, Zealot and Nemesis on the other hand have Kherubim technology and use guns which pierce there flesh as if they where normal people.

Well you also need to factor in the fact that the man in question has enhanced flexability far greater than any normal man.

I did factor that in that's why where using baseballs and not bullets and only baseballs based on Peter at his best with Spider sense and moving away from the target not towards.

Lowballing was not the intent, so use whatever analogy you feel is appropriate, the point I was trying to make is that the bullets are unlikely to hit him As their speed relative to him is much slower than they are perceived by normal humans.

That may not have been the intent but it was the result as a thrown base ball does not come close to describing the situation he is in.

So she's taking shots at Peter and May and she looks away from the moving bouncing targets to fire at a blank stretch of air because he comrade is firing at it?

I wouldn't call it tactfully unsound to switch your focus to people that are down the round avoiding and not returning your fire to one one that's clearly ambushing you from above. It's not like the other 2 Spiders are right next to them so she clearly would focus on the actual threat.

And Again unless Kaine is the biggest moron on the planet when he's leaping into a pack of enemies he's not going to be so focused on one target that he isn't paying attention to his surroundings. I mean think about this for a second. He had a precognitive danger sense before that's now gone, if anything he would be extra vigilant to his surroundings. Not leap around willy-nilly and focus on one character to the point that he wasn't paying attention to his surroundings.

You left out the part where he believes he is invisible to everyone below. Regardless of him being a moron or not even if he where to notice her while aiming for someone else he would still be surprised that she reacted to him, you made the assumption that my battle hardened characters Deathstroke and Nemesis would be at a disadvantage when taken by surprise when Zealot is caught by the webs but you think it's silly when a character with a minute fraction of their experience gets surprised.

Okay, well that's artist error; the sequence of events showed he was still slashed and shot before he engaged his cloak.

At least the writer was smart enough to justify the blood on his costume not showing up with the pool which will still be there in this scenario when he gets tagged.

I wasn't aware we were comparing pain tolerance between our character's, I was saying that Kaine's been shot and had his chest slashed open and continued to fight at full capacity and that it was relevant to you saying Nemesis can tag him. As if he's been shot his combat ability will come into question. Now while Zealot's pain tolerance is interesting and might factor into this battle later it ultimately has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Being able to fight at full capacity is always hard to measure for heroes because you aren't going to have the writer call out percentages after every injury, most importantly he was shown clutching the shoulder in pain after taking a single gun shot not exactly a great pain tolerance feat, except this time he will take more than one bullet when oneicould very well cause him to crash among elite swordsmen.

The slash isn't that important Slashes are superficial 99% of the time unless shown going in deep.

We're not talking about advantage you brought up his experience, I elaborated on it to show that he does have experience in fighting super powered individuals. Yes Kaine is willing to kill and despite their differing moral code, Kaine and Spider-Man have teamed before with no issue (the last time was during Spider-Island), I forsee none here.

Experience when he had a different set of powers. The way it was worded didn't clarify that he was more powerful then than he is now, I was clarifying for anyone who may think that he held his own against 3 Spider Men with his current powers.

I may be unclear but are you saying that Spider Man is willing to work with a guy who's first move is to fling a seemingly normal looking woman to her death and he is ok with this plan as you've said he is waiting for her removal so he can run up and attack the other 2. I think it would be more likely that he would call Kaine a pyscho as he went to save her if it succeeded.

Well I disagree, to me it reads he's flipping through the air lands on the console, pushes off of it and takes out the guards, but since we can't agree I guess we'll let the voters decide.

Agreeing may have actually looked better if you played it right your characters don't need to win for you to win the debate after all. He is moving away from where they are firing and they apparently can't shoot for shit as not a single bullet is shown going close to the center of where they are standing, they don't even appear to hit that other guy but that's mooks for you.

I wasn't going to bring Magneto into this discussion but I'd like some scans backing what you're claiming. Otherwise I'm going to work from the point of view that your metals can be affected by Spidey's magnetic webbing.

Scans of magnets being used are incredibly specific so you can continue to make that assumption if you wish but physics is against so if you have scans of his magnetics webbing rare nonferrous metals that would be handy.

The best I can give you is that he is using Promethium and Nth metal which have much more in common with nonferrous metals bar the exception of Nths magical properties.

#25 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3964 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by Dextersinister (5706 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: You've left it very late and voting is almost upon us so if you do reply give me a heads up tomorrow before it goes to voting.

As it stands you have placed your character in a bad situation, I have even made a list of how bad that situation is and you yourself have provided an example of Kaine getting tagged by a nobody in situation where he is afforded a lot more options and who also gives away his element of surprise.

You also gave bullet dodging examples of Spider Man in place of Kaine where he uses his spider sense.

Kaine is further ahead of the other 2 so the fight will end up being a 3 against 2 if he where still able to stand while landing amongst them. Deathstroke has been capable of tagging someone with enhanced speed because of a change in air currents.

The remaining Spiders are outnumbered, placed in a fight with people with comparable reaction times, excellent durability against blunt trauma which is their opponents main offensive attack, they use weapons which would cut their flesh as if it was air and Spider Man often performs his worst against an opponent in his first encounter or 2 which is normally standard for the genre one of the exceptions being Deathstroke, a criticism of his book is that he is too competent.

#27 Posted by Dredeuced (5296 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote for DexterSinister. I agree that Sovereign left his debate and team in a precarious position.

#28 Posted by Esquire (3827 posts) - - Show Bio

Announcement:

Due to unfortunate scheduling and overall business, Sovereign91001 has regretfully and respectfully bowed out, giving DexterSinister the default but very much earned victory.