#1 Edited by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

Team @diredrill Misdirection

  • Kid Karnevil (DC Comics)
  • T-girl (Jackie Chan Adventures)
  • Red X (Teen Titans Cartoon)

Team @myrmidonhero Martial Artists

  • Ryu (Street Fighter)
  • Richard Dragon
  • Taskmaster


  • In character
  • Win by Death, KO, BFR, or Incapacitation
  • Team Chemistry does come into play
  • No Prep
  • All DC Characters are Pre-52, but Post-52 Feats can be used in most cases
  • All Marvel Characters are Current unless otherwise specified
  • Standard Gear unless otherwise specified
  • Location is unpopulated
  • Contestants start on the bridge at opposite ends.
#2 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Red X and T-Girl both activate their invisibility powers and then just take out your team. No one on your team has super senses so they will be completely unable to see them approach and take your team out. Red X is armed with gadgets made to take down the Teen Titans and T-Girl has flight and super strength so none of these guys will be much problem. Kid Karnevil sits at the other while they do there stuff watching how their powers work so that he knows for next round. This battle ends in less than 5 minutes.

#3 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

Seeing Red X and T-Girl vanish, Ryu Hadoukens the center of the bridge and allows it to collapse into the water making foot crossing impossible, and as Ryu actually can sense people's fighting spirits, can launch volley after volley of Hadoukens at range at Red X and T-Girl, calling out their locations while Taskmaster and Richard Dragon Go back to back near Ryu to cover him. Ryu and Richard Dragon can use their superior reflexes to dodge Red X's shuriken and Taskmaster can copy their abilities in real time, he can fire arrows back at Red X and T-Girl while using his large Spartan shield to cover both him and his allies from attack. While Ryu calls out their locations whenever they go invisible. Red X goes down as Richard and Ryu are superior fighters and Taskmaster can copy all of Red's moves, T-Girl goes down after a three-man tag team involving martial distraction from Richard, various Hadoukens, Shakunetsu Hadoukens, Shinkuu-Hadoukens and Metsu Hadoukens and Taskmaster being able to pilfer what's left of Red X's gadget arsenal and using them exactly as Red X himself would against T-Girl. As Kid Karnevil can't make it across the bridge on his own, he's out of the fight by BFR.

#6 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Red X can teleport and T-Girl can fly, blowing up to the bridge does nothing but protect Kid Karnevil.

I need to see this fighting spirit sense that Ryu has because I have not been able to find anything about it. I have faced off against someone using Ryu and it never came up.

Considering how weak Hadoukens are when fired off quickly, T-girl can just tank them. Red X is good enough to out teleport Robin's batarangs so Hadoukens should be no problem. When you put your team back to back, that just makes it easier because Red X carries a an Electo-X that can shock anyone in range. He teleports above and throws it down and gets your entire team. You can try and dodge, but it is an AoE attack. Red X made the entire Teen Titan's team look like fools, your 3 guys will be cake. T-girl just draws Ryu's fire.

#7 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

<p>Task Master can copy anything Red X, Richard Dragon, Ryu and T-Girl can do physically, Ryu and Richard Dragon are both superior fighters compared to Red X and an inexperienced T-Girl (who barely understands her abilities and requires the aid of others to use them properly).</p><p>Hadoukens can range from small bursts of energy to leveling small areas of landscape. The Denjin Hadouken alone can't be blocked and will electro-stun anyone it hits. Red X isn't anywhere close to a threat to a couple of guys who are better trained than both Red X and Robin period. T-Girl is your strongest character and she's an inexperienced fighter with powers beyond her control. Kid Karnevil isn't even a threat if he could even get into this fight.</p><p>Ryu performs his sense in the Manga and the movies pretty often. Not too mention the degree he can control how powerful or how weak his fireballs are. Ryu is fast and agile enough to slip through bullets with ease, Red X throwing shuriken is nothing Ryu couldn't handle.Especially since either he or Taskmaster could sjoot Red X's projectiles down mid flight.</p><p>Richard Dragon alone could take Red X with little effort. He's largely considered by the DC universe at large as the greatest martial fighter there is before the 30th Century where Val Armorr would reign, and trains most of the human fighters in DC.</p><p>Taskmaster can literally copy any move Red X can pull off in real time and those X Shuriken he throws won't be very effective against Task Master's shield, and Task Master can always retaliate with his bow and arrow which he can fire with the skill of Hawkeye on command, not only that he could throw his shield in a pinch with the skill of Captain America, and use his sword in close combat.</p><p>Red X isn't a threat to these guys since his weapons at best are made specifically for the Titans, which he isn't fighting here.</p><p>T-Girl is your biggest hitter here and she's a super-powered, inexperienced kid at best.</p><p>Once X is out of the way the trio can simply range out and take her.</p><p>All three of my fighters are team players and will coordinate well, Red X doesn't play well with others at all, T-Girl's inexperience and impulsiveness make her less than ideal for a team dynamic, and Kid Karnevil is a murderer who is out for himself. My trio have way more effective team-work skills than yours would.</p><p>Ryu senses Akuma's prescence in Street Fighter Alpha: The Movie. Ryu is also shown as being able to sense where leaves will fall from trees and Oro makes a comment about Ryu's incredible ability to sense one's presence when he senses Oro trying to steal Ryu's travel bag while his eyes are closed and is resting. Ryu also survives a direct Raging Demon from Akuma which ends with Akuma impaling Ryu with his fist. All of those feats take place in the "Ryu Final" 2 book Manga series.</p><p> </p><p>Ryu Dodging Bullets at point Blank:</p><div data-embed-type="video" data-src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30RIXvcoRuw" data-width="640" data-height="360"><iframe


height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""

src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/30RIXvcoRuw?wmode=opaque&amp;feature=oembed"></iframe></div><p> </p><p>Richard doesn't even need to see his opponents to fight them:</p><figure data-align="left" data-size="medium" data-img-src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960816-3840961961-Richa.jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960816" data-resize-url="" data-resized="" data-embed-type="image"><a href="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960816-3840961961-Richa.jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960816"><img src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111111324/2960816-3840961961-Richa.jpg"></a></figure><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Some Taskmaster Feats for good measure:</p><figure data-align="left" data-size="medium" data-img-src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960822-8292364315-4-19b.jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960822" data-resize-url="" data-resized="" data-embed-type="image"><a href="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960822-8292364315-4-19b.jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960822"><img src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111111324/2960822-8292364315-4-19b.jpg"></a></figure><figure data-align="left" data-size="medium" data-img-src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960859-4756689102-1-13..jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960859" data-resize-url="" data-resized="" data-embed-type="image"><a href="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960859-4756689102-1-13..jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960859"><img src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111111324/2960859-4756689102-1-13..jpg"></a></figure><figure style="font-size:14px;line-height:20px;" data-align="right" data-size="medium" data-img-src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960854-2396153349-018.j.jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960854" data-resize-url="" data-resized="" data-embed-type="image"><a href="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111324/2960854-2396153349-018.j.jpg" data-ref-id="1300-2960854"><img src="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111111324/2960854-2396153349-018.j.jpg"></a></figure><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p>

#8 Posted by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm done ^^.

#9 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Taskmaster can only copy what he can see. T-Girl and Red X will both be invisible. He won't have time to copy his own teammates because there is no prep, he'll only be able to copy what they do to combat my team which will be fall down from being electrocuted.

If you are firing Hadoukens in quick succession then they won't be powerful enough to do anything to T-Girl. When I faced off against Ryu last, the quick Hadoukens were only capable of taking down wooden dummies who are not moving. You won't even touch Red X because he has out-teleported shuriken with little effort while also dodging attacks from multiple opponents effortlessly so dodging Hadoukens and Arrows will be childsplay.

Red X's Shurikens release a powerful electric blast in a field around where it is detonated. If you are within a couple feet of it, you will get electrocuted into unconsciousness as even Cyborg was unable to resist it. I don't care how good you are at dodging, you won't dodge an Area of Effect Attack like that. Likewise, since you put all your people together they all go down to one shuriken. None of your team members have anywhere near the durability of the Teen Titans so there should be no reason why they should be able to tank it. He can also fire an X strong enough to hold someone with Starfire's superstrength that is large enough to prevent someone from dodging it. Red X is far and away equipped to take on foes who are far faster, stronger, and more durable than everyone on your team. Taskmaster's shield is made of metal, once that shuriken is blocked it will electrocute Taskmaster. Red X's reaction time and teleportation make him a threat from all sides. You can't possibly block every direction all the time. Red X is far and away my most dangerous team member. What is Richard Dragon going to do against all of Red X's ranged attacks? They are all area of affect attacks which means that dodging is functionally useless and his teleportation will ensure that he can't ever get close enough to do anything. Richard Dragon is less than useless in this confrontation. Red X can solo your entire team.

T-Girl meanwhile will be drawing your fire because she can shrug it off. She is impulsive and a poor fighter but with the Ox and Horse Talisman it doesn't matter. She'll also be invisible and flying so she need not worry about any of your people getting to close. If needbe she can return fire with Heat Beams and Combustive Blasts that will keep you on your toes. She won't need to get into melee range to take your guys out so Dragon is also useless.

My team is designed to have bad team work. You pointing this out is exactly what I was going for. They will work more for themselves then each other. Red X will begin his attack not because he is protecting Kid Karnevil but because he is completing his objective. T-Girl will charge in invisible and hit your team because she wants to be like Uncle Jackie. Karnevil will sit on the sidelines because he can care less about his team mates.

I want to see the actual instances of Ryu using this power to detect an invisible foe. All it sounds like to me is just good hearing which is useless against invisible flying foes who will effectively create no sound to follow. Nothing I have found online in anyway suggests that he can sense a fighting spirit. He just has good hearing which is nothing impressive and won't allow him to detect my team.

Overall, you can't expect martial artists to stand any chance against my team.

#10 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

<p>Already gave you the references of his. Sensing abilities. Only some of X's projectiles are explosive. Plus a ll his abilities are battery powered which he seems to run out of eadily. Taskmaster can easily shoot down anything X fires off, as well as Ryu. T-Girl is clumsy and incapable, she's as likely to hit X in combat as anyone else, especially if they can't see each other and don't communicate well. She's also prone to rushing in, so X's own explosives could take her out.</p>

#11 Posted by Dredeuced (6137 posts) - - Show Bio

Already gave you the references of his. Sensing abilities. Only some of X's projectiles are explosive. Plus a ll his abilities are battery powered. Taskmaster can easily shoot down anything X fires off, as well as Ryu. T-Girl is clumsy and incapable, she's as likely to hit X in combat as anyone else, especially if they can't see each other and don't communicate well. She's also prone to rushing in, so X's own explosives could take her out.

Your post's formatting is completely screwed. Can't see any of your references without having to sift through coding jargon.

#12 Posted by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced Really? Crud it showed up fine in my screen after I put it up and reloaded it. I'll double check the references tomorrow. Sorry about that.

#13 Edited by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Ryu did not dodge bullets he dodged the muzzle of the gun, they show the gun firing before they show he dodges. It is no more impressive than Batman dodging bullets which puts him below Red X in terms of dodging. Also, bullets move far slower than the optic blasts that Starfire uses and Red X has dodged those. Show me him dodging automatic gunfire without looking at the muzzle.

Richard Dragon was fighting multiple Melee Opponents without sight, now show me him fighting multiple opponents at range who are firing Area of Effect weapons at him.

Again, T-girl is mainly going to draw fire because she doesn't generally fight hand to hand when she has access to Heat Beams and Combustion care of the Pig and Dragon Talisman. Even if she does rush in, Red X doesn't care if she gets taken out so long as she keeps your team focused on her long enough for his X's to do their job. Red X and T-Girl will be using their superior range, so they can't really get in each other's way because they never have to close the distance. Heat Beam Eye Blasts go to where you are looking so her aim should be no problem. Red X can literally solo here, T-Girl only really serves to be a distraction. Like I said, my team is designed to not work together, to work independently without support.

You are going to shoot down an X that can push back a full-sized rhino in mid charge with an arrow? Good luck with that. Arrows impart far less force than a charging rhino.

Red X taking down the Teen Titans like they were fools. Twice.



Full Episode if you are interested.


After sifting through your messed up code, I was able to pull most of the links but none of them showed Ryu sensing anything that he couldn't already hear.

Unless you can produce something of substance, I see no reason to not go to voting.

#14 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, still have the 5 post/day limit... Let’s see...

Alright, my final rebuttal is going to be primarily on feats/abilities:

Red-X: Fights like Robin, has been stalemated by Robin in one on one combat as well as “beaten” him. Has numerous “X” themed projectiles and can teleport OR has short form invisibility which lasts just long enough for him to seem like he’s teleporting as proven by the way this ability works in the only few showings he has had in the Teen Titans cartoon show. As he has no comic appearances I can find, the only evidence I have to go off of is how the ability was used in the show, which was not prolonged invisibility at all. To top it all off, his abilities require a battery powered belt which has been shown to run out mid-fight fairly easily. Thus leaving him without any projectiles or teleporting to speak of. (All of this evidence is in his only episodes.)

T-Girl: While formidable with her potential power, she has almost no experience with the powers she possesses, is reckless, unfocused and is as likely to hurt her own team as she is the others. Plus she has only been shown to be able to use one ability at a time, not in conjunction with other powers, so she would have to switch regularly which would make her hard pressed against seasoned warriors to keep that kind of focus up. The heaviest thing she’s also ever shown to lift is a tree and she has trouble controlling her heat ray eyes as well as mouth blast. (Her only episode is evidence of all this)

Kid Karnevil: Has no notable combat feats that I could find (other than he claims he is immortal and is good at torture) and his own sociopathic tendencies would get in his way if he were even able to fight.

And I know you pride this team on no one being a decent team player and able to work “well alone” here but Esquire did say: “Team Chemistry does come into play” and your team just doesn’t have it. You also seem to be running under the pretense that characters in the Street Fighter Universe are just normal people with some slightly special abilities which just isn’t the case...

Ryu: Has 5 different Hadoukens he can use alone, Normal, Shakunetsu (flame), Shinkuu (Vacuum), Metsu (Destructive) and Denjin (Electric) and vary the speed (up to the 100’s of mph) and power of each one from simple impacts to leveling landscape (including a minimum of 2 20ft granite statues when Ryu first learned the Shinkuu Hadouken). Ryu has been shown to lift massive boulders as well as carry them like a back-pack, he can sense people’s ki, he can punch boulders into rubble and Capcom staff have stated officially that he can indeed dodge gun-fire with little difficulty if need be in their DVD interviews. He’s also been shown to shrug off electrical attacks and has had to deal with teleporters before (Akuma and M. Bison/Vega). Again he’s also survived being impaled on an arm through his chest and finished the fight. None of that even covers what would happen if Ryu decided to access his Satsui-no-Hadou in battle either which grants him even greater strength, speed and teleportation of his own.

Richard Dragon: While not as “feat-tastic” as most heroes, he is still the number one martial artist in the DC Universe (again until the 30th century). He trained Batman, Huntress, Shiva and many others. He can locate hidden enemies simply by clapping his hands. While he may not be super strong, his martial skill alone would be more than a match for Red-X or T-Girl in close combat.

Taskmaster: Even without copying any of his opponents or allies abilities for this fight, he already has Cap’s shield-throwing mastered, Hawkeye’s Marksmanship mastered, as well as Spider-Man’s agility feats memorized along with Daredevil’s as well. Not too mention the numerous martial arts styles he’s memorized just by watching others fight or videos he’s watched. (in standard-speed and double-speed; double-speed study alone can double his own speed at a minimum). Making him a ranged threat and close combat threat to Red-X.

All of my characters have fought successfully on teams of varying size, and work and communicate well with team members.

All three of these guys are better martial fighters than any of yours are and as for “stopping X projectiles that can stop a Rhino”, Ryu can simply Hadouken those ones if he has too. Only some of X’s projectiles are area of effect and would drain his battery faster. Which is why he uses them sparingly. A well placed Denjin Hadouken would stun and fry T-Girl's nerves on contact taking her out of the fight as well. Won't let me post anymore scans for some reason, so I can't post Taskmaster scans. Ah well... I'm ready for voting ^^.


Ryu sensing Akuma's presence- 1st video :24; Ryu shrugs of electric attacks- 2nd video :34 and Evil Ryu feats start at 3:09

Loading Video...
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Ryu lifting boulders and surviving fatal blows:

#15 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio
Richard Dragon fighting Blind
Richard Dragon blocking bladed weapons

#16 Edited by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

So we are using Composite Ryu now? See you only get to use 1 set of Ryu Feats not everything that he has ever done anywhere. This is like the guy who chose to use Sonic and used every game and every appearance of him as proof of his abilities. If I choose Batman it does not mean that I can use Batman of Earth 1-52, Batman Beyond, Animated Batman, Movie Batman, and Every Other Batman Feats as proof of what Batman can do. I'd only get Earth-1 Batman or Pre-52 Batman or Post 52 Batman. So please pick your Ryu first before you continue.

His battery was only an issue because he did not have active access to his power source. By the end of the episode he has access to enough of his power source to keep going for years. Plus this battle will only last a couple moments anyways as no one on your team can counter his AOE attacks. Plus, all of UDON Taskmaster's feats can be replicated by Red X with no issue as during his robbery he was able to run from Robin through a large set of lasers without touching a single one without the need for using stolen moves. Invisibility was really on used by Robin when he was using Red X's Equipment but like you said, some of his teleportation feats may indeed be invisibility it is hard to tell since he is so fast already.

I assume you are talking about the episode specifically titled T-Girl wherein she has absorbed the powers of the Talismans through an electrical mishap? She only had difficulty there because she is more used to using them in their Talisman format not their absorbed forms. She had to figure out just what triggers she needed to do to activate the powers. I am not using that T-Girl but rather later incarnations whereby she was empowered by the Talismans in their Talisman Form. I have already discussed at length which Talismans she gets access to in this Tourney with Esquire and he approved a version of the character that has all but the Rabbit and Dog Talismans. In terms of Talisman use, Jade is by far the superior Talismanipulator as she is the one who figures out that you can combine them for various effects outside of their base uses. By far, she is the one that most understands them as she is the one who distributes them during team encounters to counter her allies weaknesses.

Even though she has to figure out how to use them, by the end of the episode she is trouncing all 3 of Daolon Wong's Superhuman Ninjas with ease. They are Super Durable, Super Strong, Super Fast, have magic senses, and use weapons that are charged with magic that they can control mentally. Additionally, these were the original ones with centuries of training not the more goofy ones used later after the first set were lost. She is only subdued when Daolon Wong uses magic to paralyze her. She only really limits herself to a few Active Talisman Abilities active at any one time but multiple passive abilities are engaged. During the last fight, she is using the Rat, Ox, Horse, Dog, Rooster, and any one of the active Talismans. She also is able to activate her heat beams after a hammer is swung at her and hit the hammer before it hits her. Taking out arrows or Hadoukens should be no problem. Given that Daolon Wongs Ninjas could sense her magic, her invisibility was useless but that is not the case here. None of your people can detect her when she is invisible. This is all assuming that she is using the form of these powers with which she is far less skilled. She will provide a very nice distraction for Red X to do his job.

Kid Karnevil doesn't even have to do anything in this fight as Red X and T-Girl can both solo your team relatively powerless team.

Let's assume that you have picked the one that has the presence Sensing power. It takes him a full 3 seconds to charge up his Hadouken and fire it. That is slow my friend, anyone could dodge or deflect that slow moving projectile and his stronger ones, namely his Dark Hado, took 40 seconds to charge up and fire. This battle will be over in 40 seconds. Fact is, all of his Hadoukens take far too long to charge and deploy while T-Girl and Red X can deploy any of their attacks in less than a second. He is simply not fast enough to compete. I can go to the fridge and get me a bottle of water in the time it takes him to fire a Hadouken. Now let's talk about this supposed sense he has. First and foremost, he doesn't even know where Akuma is, he just knows he is in the area. When he does fire off an Hadouken, it hits nothing but one of the many dummies in the area. His sense would be useless for detecting a invisible flying girl much less allow him the time needed to charge his Hadouken and fire it off. Also, he never says he has any superhuman senses, he just senses an evil presence. I sense evil presences all the time and I have no superhuman senses. Whenever I walk into a place that has no people in it, I often assume something sinister just like everyone else does. The fact that it takes Akuma Destroying a wooden dummy to give him an idea of who he is facing is further proof that even if this sense were legit, it is useless for determining anything beyond that there is someone nearby who is going to attack you which everyone in the battle knows. His Hadoukens and Senses are completely useless here.

Taskmaster is an wuss, he only takes jobs where he knows he can win and rarely gets into scuffles with superhumans and generally when he does, he loses. All of his skills are stolen and his application of them is slow. He won't be able to compete here against my superhuman team. Red X's X projectiles should easily constrict and confine him. regardless of what weapons or skills he is using.

Richard Dragon has only really fought human opponents, show me him taking on someone with legit superpowers and we have a ball game but until then he is useless here. By the way, Red X won't be firing knives, he'll be firing expanding constricting X's that can confine a Rhino. Red X takes him out in less than 5 seconds.

Your team only really has good close range feats while my team has excellent long range feats. Long Range beats close range every time. Your team goes down in less than a minute.

You have yet to show me anything that shows your team has any means of countering my teams superpowers.

#17 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

<p>He couldn't pinpoint Akuma's location because of how massive his power is. He'd have no trouble locating your characters. Hadoukens fire off as fast as he wants them to, instant or delayed firing is nothing difficult for him. I chose Ryu from the Street Fighter Universe, wasn't told I had to specify the exact game or anime since they're all the same Ryu, unlike Marvel/DC characters who have many versions. The only Alternate Ryu would be the Marvel incarnation of him (which is still his personal canon according to Capcom as he did meet Cyclops and Captain America). Every feat I mentioned though takes place specifically in the Street Fighter Universe canon only. Otherwise I could end this all by saying Ryu could use a Hadouken the size and strength of Cyclops' max optic blast. I don't have to convince you, it's the voters that count and it's time to let the voters decide ^^.</p>

#18 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

More power makes something easier to find not harder. It makes absolutely zero sense that he couldn't pinpoint Akuma's location because of his high power levels. In fact, most forms of no physical detection rely on energy levels to find. You can find a hotter flame more readily than a lower power flame using Infrared. It is like saying that you can't find a mountain when you are looking outside.

What I mean is that the series are not connected and not within Canon. For instance, the Games, excluding the whole Capcom Versus Whatever series of games, are completely separate from everything else except for a single Manga produced directly by Capcom. None on of the manga, comics, anime, animation or anything beyond the games is considered canon by Capcom. Everything else maintains its own internal canon but is not part of a single Ryu Canon. It is like Transformers, they all have similar broadstrokes but every incarnation is different and maintains its own internal canon. So you can't use a composite Ryu that is Game, UDON, Anime, Manga, Animation, or otherwise because these are all different canons. I am sure that Esquire only okayed what he believed was the Game Ryu in which case you lose your sense completely.

So I take it you are ready for voting once you finally decide which Ryu you in fact are using?

#19 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

You're right, it would be easier to find a higher power level's location... If it wasn't all encompassing like an inferno (which Akuma's is). Capcom staff have already gone on record in many interviews as saying that while most supplemental material outside of the games may not be canon for the storyline, all the feats are, which is the point. I'll pick "a Ryu" if Esquire wants me too (pretty sure he would've asked me which version if he thought there was a difference), but there is only one Ryu in the entire SF Universe, regardless of the media you see him in, all his feats are canon as stated by Capcom. Every animated movie was also produced by Capcom as well as the Ryu Final books that I posted scans from up above. The Udon books are also produced by Capcom. Like I said, I'm ready for the voters to decide ^^.

#20 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think you understand the definition of produced. There is a difference between licensed and produced. Capcom has only directly produced all the games and the one manga. They have licensed out their IP to various people to create the comics, manga, anime, and various other items so these things were not produced by Capcom but rather their producers. What do you think the GI Joe Ryu also counts? The Udon Books are produced by Udon not Capcom, they are licensed like the Spider-man Movies and those are produced by Sony not Marvel. Pretty much if something is on the "In Other Media" portion of the wikipedia page then it is a different continuity/canon unless specified. I would like to see your evidence that all Ryus are the same Ryu because you have yet to post a source nor can I find anything online beyond this incredibly extensive guide which supports my claim. Do you have anything that contradicts the information therein?

Again, @esquire is not an expert on everything and he shouldn't be required to be. He has a base knowledge of most things and uses his best judgement to derive balance. As such, he likely assumed you were using the only truly canon Ryu which is the one from the Games. I made sure to clarify my characters with Esquire so that should an issue pop up, I would have already gotten the go ahead from him. If you would be so kind Esquire as to make a ruling in this case as it is currently unclear.

I am also ready for voting but I would like this issue resolved before hand.

#22 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

Then I choose Street Fighter 3 Third Strike version of Ryu. All my latest scans and the 2nd video (featuring Evil Ryu transformation) are explicitly canon. The second video was made by Capcom and sold with the collector's edition of Street Fighter 4 and even made by Capcom's team that did the intro and outro videos for the game. My image scans were also taken from the game and from Ryu Final books which were made by Masahiko Nakahira and were adopted into Canon by Capcom (evidenced by them using stuff from the books in SF 3 and SF 4). So Evil Ryu feats are canon, as well as boulder lifting, and fatal punch surviving. All other feats were still adopted as Canon, but I'll pick a Ryu. Let the voting commence ^^.

#23 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because something from a book makes it into a game, does not mean it counts. Harley Quinn was invented for the Animated Series of Batman and she was later adopted into comics but you can't use Animated Harley Quinn feats for Comic Harley Quinn. There is a concept known as Canon Immigration that allows for the transference of characters from one canon into another canon without actually moving the entirety of that universe into canon. So just because some characters or events are used in the Game does not mean that the whole book is now canon. As my source explains, nothing in the comics, books, manga, anime, or otherwise except for one specific manga directly produced by Capcom can be considered canon. There is no such thing as Adopted as Canon, there is canon and not canon and nothing beyond the games is Canon. Again, you have yet to show me a source for your statements of canon whereas my source is quite extensive and includes direct quotes/translations where possible.

As you are using Game Ryu, then none of your posted feats count meaning my team can attack with impunity.

#24 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

<p>Now you're being picky. That's basically saying "he fights like a video game character only? Oh okay." You're confusing video game mechanics for canon performance. That's wrong. The game only plays that way because that's how it is designed. All the extra material (animes, books, etc) show how the characters behave in an actual world. If you're going to use video gameplay mechanics as the only form of canon and not actual universe or story canon, then this isn't a debate. You win because I'm dropping out if you're going to be so picky as to make me choose "does he fight like a video game character or an anime/manga character? Because if he's not in video game form it's not canon therefore you still lose." Which is pretty much what you're getting at at this point. Then I will simply quit and you can have the win.I appreciate you making my very first Comicvine tournament an enjoyable one, thanks ^^.</p>

#25 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

I am not being picky, I am simply using the rules set forth by Capcom. They determine what is and is not canon Non-Canon appearances do not count for the character. I did not come up with the rules, that is up to the creator/copyright holder. Think about all the animes and mangas and comic books like the JLA/Avengers books. They are entertaining but ultimately they don't mean anything at all when comparing Superman to Thor. This is why choosing video game characters especially those from a fighting game is generally a bad idea unless they have substantial evidence in the game to back up their abilities.

You need not quit, you just need to make sure you know what your characters can do and then restate your case.

#26 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

<p>&lt;p&gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;Like I said before. I know what the characters are capable of. The feats are canon as stated by Capcom themselves. It doesn't matter if a particular ability was or wasn't used in some particular way in the game. My point is that what Ryu is capable of has been pointed out numerous times, regardless of whether or not it happened in game, because it's part of his personal abilities. While the Udon comics storyline (for example) may not be SF storyline Canon, the feats Ryu performs are well within Ryu's actual abilities. That was my point. I'm perfectly aware of Ryu's official storyline, I followed it since his origin. I'm not debating storyline here, I'm debating what Ryu is actually capable of. Which is why Capcom either produces or licenses the extra media, to show what the characters can actually do outside of game-play. It would be like saying if you sat down with Yoshinori Ono himself or any other Capcom executive staff member and they said "See this Street Fighter Movie here? This story has absolutely nothing to do with the game series storyline, but the way Ryu moves here? Or throws his Hadouken there? That is exactly how it would be if it were to happen outside of game-play." and ignore that statement completely, simply because those things don't happen like that in game. Which is pretty much what you're telling me to do.&lt;/p&gt;</p>

#27 Posted by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, you have yet to show me a source that contradicts my source. Until you can show me Capcom saying what you are saying they said, then it is pointless to keep saying that they said this. Show me something at least.

Licensed media rarely ever counts because it is effectively a different universe. For instance, the Raimi Spider-man had biological web spinning but comic Spider-man has only really had organic web spinning for a single arc. Spider-man has been shown to be able to spin webs but how he does it differs from licensed media to official media which has a lot of bearing on Spidey's tactical abilities. Webshooters afford him many advantages over biological web spinning. Just because the character could potentially do something like that it doesn't count until they have been shown to do it. Another instance of this is AoA Iceman and 616 Iceman, AoA Iceman was using duplicates and using moisture teleportation long before 616 Iceman ever exhibited the ability but we could not say that 616 Iceman could do that until he actually did it despite it being something he should be able to do.

Canon rules exist for a reason, they make sure that should any of the licensed material portray their characters in a light that they do not want.

Actually every instance of Hadoukens that I can find in the anime or cartoon fire off substantially because they have a ridiculous DBZ charge up sequence that directly contradicts the speed at which Video Game Ryu can fire off an hadouken. I bring this up because it shows that both Ryus are indeed different in how they function.

Even if you get to use Composite Ryu, you have yet to show us how fairly nebulous sense that is ineffective at detecting what it is made to detect translates to him detecting both of my highly maneuverable stealth weapons platforms with enough accuracy to deploy one of his attacks against them.

Your martial artist team may have faired better had they been able to bring theirs skills to bear but my team completely invalidates all of their skills through versatility and superior ranged attacks.

I am a bit loathe to move on without @esquire's ruling but if you would like to go to voting we can now.

#28 Posted by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's just vote, if @esquire could rule on this before the vote, fantastic. If not? Ah well. I will yield to the voters ^^.

#29 Edited by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill @myrmidonhero Bleh. I hate it when things like this come up. When I accepted Ryu, I did indeed only think about his video game feats. (Since that's really all I'm familiar with.) But I don't see anything from his non-game appearances that really makes a big difference, since his Detection Power is pretty non-specific. I agree with DireDrill's reasoning, but I don't want to make things unfair for Myrmidonhero, since it seems he intended to pick a Composite Ryu. Since it doesn't really seem gamebreaking, I'm leaning towards letting him use all of Ryu's various appearences. Although I think DireDrill's point is correct, I don't feel right about limiting Myrmidon after telling him his character was allowed. It's my fault for not clarifying with him, sorry guys.

#30 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire @diredrill I would prefer to play by the rules here. I was personally under the impression that I could address his feats in other media as canon since Capcom staff members do in various interviews. I don't want to break the rules on my first battle. If I need to choose a game version of him to follow the rules here, then I will. Which would be Street Fighter 3: Third Strike, since it's at his latest point in life in the games. The results aren't unfair, it's up to voters, which is about as fair as it can be in anything. I apologize for the misunderstanding, this was a great learning experience for me as to the rules of tournaments on Comicvine. Rules are rules and if what I was interpreting for my character is against the rules, then it is. Let the voting commence ^^.

#31 Edited by DireDrill (2483 posts) - - Show Bio

If that is his ruling then I'll let it play. You now have access to your relatively untested detection ability but again, it has not been shown to be in anyway effective at determining location allowing my invisible T-Girl to pretty much move around uncontested.

@esquire we are ready for voting.

#32 Posted by OceanicSS (38 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought DireDrill had pretty convincing arguments for neutralizing Ryu and Task master's ability to detect invisibility. I also believe Red X has the ability to teleport, otherwise Cyborg wouldve detected him. My vote is for DD

#33 Edited by iamthewolf88 (349 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that Myrmidonhero's team has more feats and have defeated foes far greater than DD's team. Ryu by himself would be a good match. Besides, if we used only "game play" Ryu, than he could just blast the character with infinite combo's and frames of invulnerability......... so that doesn't make any sense. All of Ryu's comics and anime feats are canon for the character. FYI.

Richard Dragon is single handily arguably the greatest martial artist on Earth. I'm sure none of DD's team would really be too much of a threat.

All of that, on top of the fact that Taskmaster can replicate most of the other teams abilities.... I just don't see DD winning this.

I give the win to Myrmidonhero.

#34 Posted by The_Legendary_SuperSaiyan_Hulk (12145 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to go with Diredrill

#35 Posted by Dredeuced (6137 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting for Diredrill. He seemed to have a good grasp of the ways to counter Myrmidon's team.

#36 Posted by Sherlock (7401 posts) - - Show Bio

I would go with Myrmidonhero for this one

#37 Edited by myrmidonhero (64 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for me? Lol

#38 Posted by Tohoma (1785 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I'll go with myrmidonhero.

#39 Edited by oceanmaster21 (10871 posts) - - Show Bio

<p>myrmidonhero wins it was good debate i thought diredrill won till i re read the debate and i say myrmidonhero won but good debate from both great job</p>

#40 Edited by Pokergeist (23181 posts) - - Show Bio

@sherlock said:

I would go with Myrmidonhero for this one

Same here. Nice use of the Ryu scans.

#41 Posted by Clark_EL (2885 posts) - - Show Bio