@Laurcus: Its kl, im kinda late as well. Well yeah, not only did they downgrade goku but they donwngraded superman as well: 2 links, remember to try them.
@VinoVash1234: They got a few things wrong but I'm glad they reached that verdict. It's the one that has the most reasonable arguments and better feats to support it IMO.
@Laurcus: Its kl, im kinda late as well. Well yeah, not only did they downgrade goku but they donwngraded superman as well: 2 links, remember to try them.
@Lvenger: Im glad with the results as well, i simply know that there was tons more to superman and goku, waay waay more feats to cover, which they excluded, but in the end, superman is the victor, the second link i posted proves this, as it has some of his greatest feats, which is backed up by calculations, so superman wins in stats and feats.
@Laurcus: Understandable, theres a lot more to cover in terms of feats for both goku and superman, the second link covers post-crisis supermans greatest feats, thats why i posted it.
@VinoVash1234: They should have spent more time on analysis but that would have cut down on animation time I guess. But battle forum users like us would have preferred that IMO
@Lvenger: Well they couldnt have, if they wanted to analyse goku and superman at their max, then it would have been waay to long of a video, covering all their best feats, mainly supermans, will be time consuming, as they'll have to show every feat and the calculations behind it. To my understanding they displayed goku and superman at their average state of power, and compared both of them through their average means, that way no one can complain, why? because goku and superman have not been displayed at their max, and if superman wins whilst on his average scale then it would be a curbstomp if they used a fully powered superman.
@Lvenger: Well they couldnt have, if they wanted to analyse goku and superman at their max, then it would have been waay to long of a video, covering all their best feats, mainly supermans, will be time consuming, as they'll have to show every feat and the calculations behind it. To my understanding they displayed goku and superman at their average state of power, and compared both of them through their average means, that way no one can complain, why? because goku and superman have not been displayed at their max, and if superman wins whilst on his average scale then it would be a curbstomp if they used a fully powered superman.
No. That's not Goku at an average, that's Goku lowballed to hell. Much of their analysis is actually meaningless assumption because they didn't want to put real work into it. It doesn't mean Superman beats Goku on an average, it means literally nothing, because it's not in any way accurate to the character.
For example, they used the "Gero bomb" to calculate Goku's durability. They literally just made crap up about this. This isn't an examination of feats, it's their arbitrary whims. There is no reason to believe Gero's bomb would have even been able to kill Goku, as it's completely featless and we don't even know when it was made, so we don't know what version of Goku it was even intended for. They also just made up the bomb's output. When Bulma is examining the bomb, there's some numbers that flash on the screen. They assumed that these numbers are the bomb's output. They also assumed that the numbers were just stand ins for quadrillion megatons of TNT. They just made up whatever the hell they wanted with no basis in facts. You may as well pull up a random number generator program and just punch in number ranges while blindfolded and take whatever data comes up, because that's how accurate their calculations were.
They also didn't even calculate Goku's output. They just assumed their Gero bomb calculation for his durability was correct, and then they put his output as equal with his durability because of Newtonian physics. They didn't even look at his offensive feats and try to find some consistency with the durability they set. Their entire thing was bogus and they just made up random stats for Goku using arbitrary numbers for a bomb that could have been Gero's address for all we know. If they weren't up to the task of calculating the character's stats correct then they should have just manned the F up, admitted it and cancelled the Death Battle episode. Instead, they have not only vehemently defended their work, they have stated that this is the be all end all of the Superman vs Goku debate and that they have forever solved the argument. Bull crap with a side of dung.
@Lvenger: Well they couldnt have, if they wanted to analyse goku and superman at their max, then it would have been waay to long of a video, covering all their best feats, mainly supermans, will be time consuming, as they'll have to show every feat and the calculations behind it. To my understanding they displayed goku and superman at their average state of power, and compared both of them through their average means, that way no one can complain, why? because goku and superman have not been displayed at their max, and if superman wins whilst on his average scale then it would be a curbstomp if they used a fully powered superman.
No. That's not Goku at an average, that's Goku lowballed to hell. Much of their analysis is actually meaningless assumption because they didn't want to put real work into it. It doesn't mean Superman beats Goku on an average, it means literally nothing, because it's not in any way accurate to the character.
For example, they used the "Gero bomb" to calculate Goku's durability. They literally just made crap up about this. This isn't an examination of feats, it's their arbitrary whims. There is no reason to believe Gero's bomb would have even been able to kill Goku, as it's completely featless and we don't even know when it was made, so we don't know what version of Goku it was even intended for. They also just made up the bomb's output. When Bulma is examining the bomb, there's some numbers that flash on the screen. They assumed that these numbers are the bomb's output. They also assumed that the numbers were just stand ins for quadrillion megatons of TNT. They just made up whatever the hell they wanted with no basis in facts. You may as well pull up a random number generator program and just punch in number ranges while blindfolded and take whatever data comes up, because that's how accurate their calculations were.
They also didn't even calculate Goku's output. They just assumed their Gero bomb calculation for his durability was correct, and then they put his output as equal with his durability because of Newtonian physics. They didn't even look at his offensive feats and try to find some consistency with the durability they set. Their entire thing was bogus and they just made up random stats for Goku using arbitrary numbers for a bomb that could have been Gero's address for all we know. If they weren't up to the task of calculating the character's stats correct then they should have just manned the F up, admitted it and cancelled the Death Battle episode. Instead, they have not only vehemently defended their work, they have stated that this is the be all end all of the Superman vs Goku debate and that they have forever solved the argument. Bull crap with a side of dung.
That was my whole point to begin with, goku and superman, BOTH have been heavily lowballed, you cant simply say it was goku.
Have you put any thought into this at all? Heres the truth, Bulma stated that Dr Geros bomb could destroy the planet, to destroy a planet the bomb has to have a TNT measurment, afterall it is a bomb, bombs run on TNT measurment, they found the measurment by observing the Tsar Bomba, it was 50 megatons, enough to level an entire city, to get the overal destructive capacity of Geros bomb, you have to divide the amount of megaton required to destroy earth by 50 megatons, giving you a general calculation of the TNT, which becomes the TNT measurment for Geros bomb. These numbers dont come with a price, why? because they've already been established even by Derek. So these numbers stand corrected.
Why is it directly related to gokus durability? Why not? if goku died from cells explosion, which was enough to level the planet, then its destructive capacity is directly proportionate to the TNT measurment required to destroy a planet, which falls under quadrillion megatons, in short the amount of force generated by Dr geros bomb which is capable of destroying the planet is equivalent to the amount of force generated when cell exploded killing goku, which was also equivalent to destroying a planet.
Get it? Gokus durability alongside his strength, is the only thing i agreed with on deathbattles video, nothing else is agreeable.
@VinoVash1234: Screw Attack did not know what they were doing, in short this previous post of mine which contains new points explains it.
DBZ gets too much hate and Comics are definitely more inconsistent as well as less defined. Superman realistically would lose to Goku and Screw Attack`s video is full of error as well as has some form of bias, I don`t like it when DBZ fans such as myself have to be labelled as power levels and power scaling fanboys or that we just use the planet busting excuse. Superman fanboys aren`t innocent they are the real problem and Superman is one of the most inconsistent comic character in regards to feats, there are too many versions and too many writers.
Someone made a good point and brought it to my attention within another debate and that awesome point is if the Superman fans want the DBZ fans to use only Akira Toriyama and canon material then the Superman fans should only use Jerry Siegel Superman which is GA/Action Comics and Goku stomps based off of that, the Superman Screw Attack should of used was Post Crisis the more modern and truly defined Superman who would also lose to Goku, New 52 Superman would be by current standards and Goku wrecks that version. The Goku that should of been used is SSJ3 Goku and that form is more than enough to defeat Post Crisis, New 52 and Action Comics/Golden Age. Silver Age was retconned therefore his feats are contradictory and don`t match with the original Supes who is supposed to be Golden Age, Pre Crisis was retconned also, Superman Prime One Million is another timeline. Red Son is non canon it is an Elseworlds `s story, and All Star Superman is non canon as well.
Screw Attack used All Star Superman feats within their calculations and presentations, they are very biased, also not all of Goku`s feats were accounted for from the manga, they downgraded Goku`s character.
It should of been these logical options:
SSJ3 Goku (No GT or Movies feats included both are 100% non canon although GT is debatable, some filler may be okay) vs Golden Age Superman this Superman is the Superman that was intended by the creators Jerry and Joe, not Silver Age and so on so forth, Goku destroys this version, realistically this would make sense however because both would be accurately used without the interference from non canon, retconned and unrelatable material. Akira`s original Goku vs Jerry and Joe`s original Superman.
SSJ3 Goku vs Post Crisis Superman: This Superman in my opinion is the most modernly defined version and the one in my opinion that should of been used, Goku beats this version as well.
SSJ3 Goku vs New 52 Superman: By current logic it would be up to date and current which would mean, SSJ3 Goku would be up against New 52 Superman, however this Superman is overrated because of the bench pressing feat and he in my opinion would get wrecked, Screw Attack probably knows this too.
They decided to use a Superman who is an amalgamation of other versions and they screwed up with the numbers and the presentations of Goku`s true feats, they used GT to downgrade Goku as much as they can they just picked stuff from different places and sources and did not narrow down the material properly. Also I believe Screw Attack should of waited until Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods came out because that would be Goku at his most canon and current as he now has his Super Saiyan God form which arguably could be stronger than SSJ4 and also this form could of shaped the outcome completely. Overall in simplified points this is what Screw attack should of done:
1. They should of used only 100% canon material for both characters, not retconned or non canon feats.
2. They should of used Post Crisis Superman because he is the most Modernly Defined Superman and he is the proper version to use.
3. They should of waited for Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods to release on March 30th because obviously we would know more about Goku`s Super Saiyan God form and it can possibly be greater or equal but special to Super Saiyan 4, also it is canon 100%.
4. They should of done more research and studies in regards to the calculations, also they should of gotten feedback from both sides, they could of gotten votes and they also could of been more creative for this specific match-up.
Excuses the Superman fans and fanboys use:
1. Well Screw attack wanted to show them at their strongest. Even if it includes non canon and retconned material in regards to the calculations as well as presentations? Screw Attack did not know what they were doing for either character.
2. All Goku and DBZ fans use is the power-scaling excuse as well as oh Goku can bust a planet: What Superman fanboys and fans fail to realize is that Its true and power-scaling as well as ABC logic fits within the context of how ki is used and it defines the characters of Dragon Ball, also its not hard to understand and ABC logic is not a problem when it comes to the universe of Dragon Ball.
3. Screw Attack did the numbers right, they are not biased. Actually they did the numbers wrong and included non canon feats also they did not include all of Goku`s feats and the ones included weren`t thoroughly explained or were not completely accounted for, they missed a ton of feats for Goku.
4. Even if Screw Attack gave Goku 1,000000000000000000000 and etc of power in regards to his ki, he still would lose or get stomped, Screw Attack underestimated Superman, they were being nice to Goku: This is not true at all, numbers aren`t everything and what should be accounted for in a fight is canon material, principles of a fight such as who has the greater, speed, stamina, range, combat ability, combat speed, reflexes, agility, durability, variety of abilities, strength, intelligence, experience and raw power. Superman`s numbers are wrong and a lot of his showings contradict one another, if Goku had that power level he would utterly vaporize Superman.
This article is false and uses Screw Attack`s false numbers as well as evidence to further support their biased theory and claims. This is what Superman fans like to use also. - http://www.screwattack.com/news/final-analysis-superman-and-goku-w-power-levels
Goku always needs help from his friends: Wrong, he does receive help to a degree but he is the overall standing threat to the enemy and Superman receives help too also in regards to his more powerful enemies, Goku`s main enemies in my opinion are more powerful than Superman`s main enemies within his Rogues Gallery that is why I think Goku needs the extra help when battling enemies such as Buu, Frieza, Cell and etc.
Superman can sundip and is invincible, he can`t die, he carries the earth, holds a black hole, he survives when a planet explodes and etc: Under PIS, circumstances and etc he did those things, also a thing I realized is that many Superman fans and fanboys seem to forget the fact that Superman does these things while under a yellow sun, Goku doesn`t need a yellow sun at all or an energy source of some kind, he battles it out on his own power while Superman needs the sun to recharge him and keep him stable however Doomsday managed to get passed that defense and kill him. When does Superman regularly sundip during a fight or before one? Any critical examples?
Now I think Superman is an awesome character and I like him equally in terms of character in comparison to Goku but in terms of a fight Goku would win.
This is why Goku would win, the info is in the following links
To be honest for a fair fight the versions of superman that should be use should correlate with the DBZ timeline from somewhere in December 3, 1984 –June 5, 1995 (specify on where Z begins and Z ends). Whatever wins let that be forgotten.
I don't even understand why Screwattack bothered to calculate theoretical SSJ4 Goku strength and pegging him at 160,000 tons, when he clearly trounced that in GT by lifting segments of a city which would put him in the 1,000,000s or even 10s of millions of tons.
@NeonGameWave: So much bias lol. I don't do anime vs comics arguments anymore but this is so full of subjective interpretation it isn't funny. DBZ fanboy much? Realistically Superman would win far more easily. He has the better striking feats
Goku has never shown striking feats like this. And as for durability
we have him surviving this
This and 2 planet busting attacks
Then we have nanosecond reaction times and combat speed feats that let him keep up with Goku. I can't rule out Goku winning but I don't see it as being more likely than Superman winning
@Lvenger: Well they couldnt have, if they wanted to analyse goku and superman at their max, then it would have been waay to long of a video, covering all their best feats, mainly supermans, will be time consuming, as they'll have to show every feat and the calculations behind it. To my understanding they displayed goku and superman at their average state of power, and compared both of them through their average means, that way no one can complain, why? because goku and superman have not been displayed at their max, and if superman wins whilst on his average scale then it would be a curbstomp if they used a fully powered superman.
No. That's not Goku at an average, that's Goku lowballed to hell. Much of their analysis is actually meaningless assumption because they didn't want to put real work into it. It doesn't mean Superman beats Goku on an average, it means literally nothing, because it's not in any way accurate to the character.
For example, they used the "Gero bomb" to calculate Goku's durability. They literally just made crap up about this. This isn't an examination of feats, it's their arbitrary whims. There is no reason to believe Gero's bomb would have even been able to kill Goku, as it's completely featless and we don't even know when it was made, so we don't know what version of Goku it was even intended for. They also just made up the bomb's output. When Bulma is examining the bomb, there's some numbers that flash on the screen. They assumed that these numbers are the bomb's output. They also assumed that the numbers were just stand ins for quadrillion megatons of TNT. They just made up whatever the hell they wanted with no basis in facts. You may as well pull up a random number generator program and just punch in number ranges while blindfolded and take whatever data comes up, because that's how accurate their calculations were.
They also didn't even calculate Goku's output. They just assumed their Gero bomb calculation for his durability was correct, and then they put his output as equal with his durability because of Newtonian physics. They didn't even look at his offensive feats and try to find some consistency with the durability they set. Their entire thing was bogus and they just made up random stats for Goku using arbitrary numbers for a bomb that could have been Gero's address for all we know. If they weren't up to the task of calculating the character's stats correct then they should have just manned the F up, admitted it and cancelled the Death Battle episode. Instead, they have not only vehemently defended their work, they have stated that this is the be all end all of the Superman vs Goku debate and that they have forever solved the argument. Bull crap with a side of dung.
That was my whole point to begin with, goku and superman, BOTH have been heavily lowballed, you cant simply say it was goku.
Have you put any thought into this at all? Heres the truth, Bulma stated that Dr Geros bomb could destroy the planet, to destroy a planet the bomb has to have a TNT measurment, afterall it is a bomb, bombs run on TNT measurment, they found the measurment by observing the Tsar Bomba, it was 50 megatons, enough to level an entire city, to get the overal destructive capacity of Geros bomb, you have to divide the amount of megaton required to destroy earth by 50 megatons, giving you a general calculation of the TNT, which becomes the TNT measurment for Geros bomb. These numbers dont come with a price, why? because they've already been established even by Derek. So these numbers stand corrected.
Why is it directly related to gokus durability? Why not? if goku died from cells explosion, which was enough to level the planet, then its destructive capacity is directly proportionate to the TNT measurment required to destroy a planet, which falls under quadrillion megatons, in short the amount of force generated by Dr geros bomb which is capable of destroying the planet is equivalent to the amount of force generated when cell exploded killing goku, which was also equivalent to destroying a planet.
Get it? Gokus durability alongside his strength, is the only thing i agreed with on deathbattles video, nothing else is agreeable.
The numbers may not have been the output of the bomb to begin with. They were random numbers that flashed on screen for a second. They could have just as easily been a serial number for the bomb, or any other random thing you could come up with.
The bolded is wrong. Cell's explosion destroyed a planet, but nowhere was that established as a maximum for the power of that blast. The output of Cell's explosion is entirely unknown. Just because it destroyed a planet, (a tiny one) does not mean it is or is not capable of destroying more, as the planet was the only physical object around, and what's more, blast size has no correlation with energy output in DBZ.
To give an example that you should understand. Let's say the Living Tribunal comes to Earth, and decides to blow it up. He then states that he will fire his most powerful blast at the Earth. He is then shown charging up his blast for several panels. He vaporizes the Earth, then his blast shoots off into a space and dissipates after a while. Is that blast perfectly equal to the amount of TNT required to destroy the Earth, or is its exact power unknown? Cell's blast destroyed the only thing it touched. Therefore there is no established maximum output for it.
They also didn't even look at his output, and they only looked at his lowest showing for strength.
For one thing, Supes wasn't lowballed by them. All they did was not use his PC self or Alternate Universe versions of Superman with ridiculous power ups and God Status.
For Goku, it's not that they didn't do some research, but they put too much stock in the supposed "Guru's of Dragonball" from Kanzenshuu and other areas instead of taking what we've seen and applying calculations and estimations based on the visual evidence we do have. And the "milking cinematics" was just in poor taste to say. The fact that Roshi and Piccolo had both fired beams to the moon means they weren't milking a scene, especially since it's performed in the Manga as well. It was a visual representation of their abilities at that time.
It is something I have expressed on both Death Battle areas and other forums concerning this debate about that particular Death Battle, that their estimations on Goku and the Z-fighters in general are quite a ways off.
However, the end result of the DB was exactly as predicted. Superman was going to win. There was no getting around it. Not unless they used a character that could actually destroy a galaxy (like Brolly). The only thing that couldn't be accurately measured for most of DBZ is destructive output, because such visual scenes are not shown except in Movies which're non-canon.
One thing I had noted is that the Nimbus doesn't go at Mach 1.5. If that were true, it would've taken Goku 6hrs to go from Kurins Tower to the battlefield, at least. Instead it only took him roughly 10min on the Nimbus. That means it was moving around or above Mach 50.
How would I know that? Well, I actually took the liberty of looking at the DBZ world Map in comparison to a Real World map. Since both are Planet Earth, the relative size of them would be equal since the DB Earth was never stated as being smaller, only possessing a different topography.
That leads me to believe the Nimbus' speed is proportional to the power of the rider. If that wasn't the case, Goku wouldn't have wasted time using something that couldn't go as fast or faster than himself. Especially since he was in a hurry. So the estimation of Goku being Mach 9.5 on Snake Way is quite a lowball figure, since it was under the impression that the Road of Snake Way is what was 1mil km long and not the distance between the Check-in Station and King Kai's planet.
The road being 1mil km doesn't make sense. If Goku can run at least Mach 1 on the way to King Kai's, it would've taken him 34days if he ran straight there. Estimate double that time if he slept half the day each day he was on Snake Way. So, 68 days. Little over 2mo. Yet it took Goku 6mo to get there. Which would indicate that the Road is several times longer than the projected distance.
Why would I say Goku could go at least mach 1? Well, considering he could evade and catch machinegun fire as a 12yr old kid, knock away missiles, become invisible to the naked eye with pure speed and trick a three-eyed opponent with after images would more than suggest that even Mach 1 for an Adult Goku is a lowball figure, even if it was prior to King Kai training.
Another fact being Piccolo flew alongside the Nimbus to Raditz's ship with Goku from Kame house, which only took at beast 10-15min. Given the relative distance shown on the Maps, that would make Piccolo at the time around Mach 20, while weighted. Goku didn't do any real flying on his own until after King Kai trained him.
@Lvenger: Bias? Did you even read my post or tried to understand it? I think Superman is as good as Goku when it comes to character but in terms of a legit fight he loses, I`m not a DBZ fanboy although it can be in the sense of inner respect, I can see a Superman fanboy accusing me of being biased it seems clear to me. I really don`t like when Superman fans and fanboys criticize the DBZ fans and label them as well as insult them.
Goku actually has the better striking feats he hit Vegeta across an entire island and their fight ravages entire landscapes as well as islands Superman`s feats are very inconsistent.
Goku is far faster in combat speed also he is massively FTL and he is the better fighter that gives him the edge. Superman is so powerful yet this happens. Superman accelerates when in those speeds. Lifting strength is not striking power he cannot harness that same strength and deliver it within the striking of his blows this another popular misconception. Superman does have great durability but he has been koed and forced back before by lesser beings or by individuals who are not as fast as Goku in combat speed. Darkseid`s Omega Beams aren`t even planetary level, Goku is able to dodge, counter and tank Frieza`s planet busting attacks and this is Goku not even achieving SSJ3 form yet.
Goku`s punches while in SSJ1 form are strong enough to damage Frieza severely and Frieza survived a planetary explosion while cut in half and beaten.
As shown in the manga scans Goku is extremely fast and even dodged lasers, bullets and lightning as a kid and becomes more faster once he is older and transforms.
In regards to your scans which are really cool however I must address them, Superman is fast in flight speed not combat speed and he cannot apply that same speed either to his combat movements, the force of the blast forced back Superman and he wasn`t entirely at the core. Also that was a bloodlusted Superman who hit Captain Marvel not Superman at standard and I doubt Superman would be able to catch up with Goku who is massively FTL in combat, reflex, agility and reaction time. Goku has the better combat feats he is a pure fighter many Superman fans say but how can that be true when Superman trained in Valhalla for 1000 years? Or learned how to use techniques regarding pressure points? Well the point is he doesn`t constantly apply that knowledge when in combat, Goku always is training and applying what he learned in combat, he`s always honing his skills while Superman isn`t, Superman is more of a brawler, Goku uses tactics, he parries, dodges, counters and makes use of his entire body such as legs, arms and etc. He punches, kicks and also grapples he created his own technique when fighting Roshi and this was based on instinct. Goku creates after images when he is fighting and seems as though the perception of time and movement changes also remember that this even occurs when Goku is fighting in his base for not using any time of amp or power up, Kami a god can`t even see Goku.
Goku was able to do all of these great things while in SSJ1 or base form, with each transformation all of his abilities, powers and attributes would drastically increase this includes, durability, strength, speed, stamina, endurance and striking power.
Goku tanks Kid Buu`s planet busting attacks and he keeps going while in SSJ3 form. Goku can endure through more punishment and his fights last for a long time while Superman can get koed far faster by lesser enemies, Goku keeps going and going he keep getting stronger and stronger.
Superman`s advantages
Durability
Physical strength (Lifting strength and prowess)
Flight speed
Intelligence
Goku`s advantages
Physical striking power
Combat prowess (trains more, hones his sklls, applies his techniques when fighting, he uses different maneuvers and strategies such as dodging, parrying, countering, evading, and grappling.
Combat Speed (Goku is FTL in combat speed, agility, reflex and reaction time as a kid he dodged lasers, bullets, lightning but as an adult he improves tremendoulsy being able to dodge Frieza`s attacks and Piccolo`s light beam attacks as well, he makes after images, and moves so fast to the point where it seems as though time and perception has changed)
Range
Techniques and abilities
Determination
Conclusion
Superman may have the advantages when it comes to strength and durability however within the nature of combat his advantages do not apply so well as Goku`s advantages more so lie within the nature of combat he has trained since he was a kid and has been trained by martial arts masters and he self taught himself as well also he keeps training as well as honing his skills, while Superman doesn`t Goku`s combat prowess will give him the victory over the Man of Steel.
For one thing, Supes wasn't lowballed by them. All they did was not use his PC self or Alternate Universe versions of Superman with ridiculous power ups and God Status.
For Goku, it's not that they didn't do some research, but they put too much stock in the supposed "Guru's of Dragonball" from Kanzenshuu and other areas instead of taking what we've seen and applying calculations and estimations based on the visual evidence we do have. And the "milking cinematics" was just in poor taste to say. The fact that Roshi and Piccolo had both fired beams to the moon means they weren't milking a scene, especially since it's performed in the Manga as well. It was a visual representation of their abilities at that time.
It is something I have expressed on both Death Battle areas and other forums concerning this debate about that particular Death Battle, that their estimations on Goku and the Z-fighters in general are quite a ways off.
However, the end result of the DB was exactly as predicted. Superman was going to win. There was no getting around it. Not unless they used a character that could actually destroy a galaxy (like Brolly). The only thing that couldn't be accurately measured for most of DBZ is destructive output, because such visual scenes are not shown except in Movies which're non-canon. One thing I had noted is that the Nimbus doesn't go at Mach 1.5. If that were true, it would've taken Goku 6hrs to go from Kurins Tower to the battlefield, at least. Instead it only took him roughly 10min on the Nimbus. That means it was moving around or above Mach 50. How would I know that? Well, I actually took the liberty of looking at the DBZ world Map in comparison to a Real World map. Since both are Planet Earth, the relative size of them would be equal since the DB Earth was never stated as being smaller, only possessing a different topography. That leads me to believe the Nimbus' speed is proportional to the power of the rider. If that wasn't the case, Goku wouldn't have wasted time using something that couldn't go as fast or faster than himself. Especially since he was in a hurry. So the estimation of Goku being Mach 9.5 on Snake Way is quite a lowball figure, since it was under the impression that the Road of Snake Way is what was 1mil km long and not the distance between the Check-in Station and King Kai's planet. The road being 1mil km doesn't make sense. If Goku can run at least Mach 1 on the way to King Kai's, it would've taken him 34days if he ran straight there. Estimate double that time if he slept half the day each day he was on Snake Way. So, 68 days. Little over 2mo. Yet it took Goku 6mo to get there. Which would indicate that the Road is several times longer than the projected distance. Why would I say Goku could go at least mach 1? Well, considering he could evade and catch machinegun fire as a 12yr old kid, knock away missiles, become invisible to the naked eye with pure speed and trick a three-eyed opponent with after images would more than suggest that even Mach 1 for an Adult Goku is a lowball figure, even if it was prior to King Kai training. Another fact being Piccolo flew alongside the Nimbus to Raditz's ship with Goku from Kame house, which only took at beast 10-15min. Given the relative distance shown on the Maps, that would make Piccolo at the time around Mach 20, while weighted. Goku didn't do any real flying on his own until after King Kai trained him.
There's a reason Snake Way being 1 million km doesn't make sense. It was a random meaningless number. Toriyama even says as much in one of the interviews. I don't have a link right now, I'll go find the quote later. Toriyama actually drew Snake Way and the rest of the universe though, and it's clearly a lot bigger than 1 million km. So for now, have fun looking at the universe.
Eyeballing it, it looks to me like Snake Way is ~2/5 the length of the universe as the bird flies. That's a bit bigger than 1 million km.
@xlab3000: I believe the blasts are FTL or are close to being FTL, and they are pretty much in a sense light beams, Goku also dodges those same beams within the manga.
@dccomicsrule2011: Why? If not, he`s at least FTL in overall combat speed, reflex and reaction time also he surpasses Superman by a great range.
Why is he massively faster then light? I have watched/read almost all of Dragon Ball Z and I have yet to see any solid evidence he is FTL. I'm not going to debate Superman vs Goku ,but I will say I believe he is faster then Goku.
From what I posted on another thread:
I disagree Superman has shown better reaction feats, Superman has shown nanosecond time as has perceived Lighting in slow motion.
Gallery
Even when slowing down time to within a fraction of a nanosecond, Superman can accelerate himself back to real space speed.
Gallery
He can vibrate his body so fast punches go right through him and he can also cause stuff to explode by vibrating atoms and making them unstable.
Goku moves extremely fast and so fast to the point where he cannot be seen by Kami`s god eyes also this is Goku in base form not SSJ1, 2 or 3 form these transformations increase all of his attributes.
Dodges Frieza`s death beams close range even while damaged and this in SSJ1 form not SSJ3.
My point is that Goku is faster in overall combat speed, Superman usually accelerates when going in those speeds and he doesn`t react like Goku does when it comes to instinct and reflex when in dodging, or countering an enemies` moves. Raditz dodged Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon which is FTL, the same beam Piccolo used to destroy the Moon in 1-2 second and Raditz`s PL was 1200+, Goku surpasses him during the Saiyan Saga I did not even include SSJ3, Kaioken or SSJ3 which enhance the level of performance in regards to ki and through all attributes are defined within DBZ.
There's a reason Snake Way being 1 million km doesn't make sense. It was a random meaningless number. Toriyama even says as much in one of the interviews. I don't have a link right now, I'll go find the quote later. Toriyama actually drew Snake Way and the rest of the universe though, and it's clearly a lot bigger than 1 million km. So for now, have fun looking at the universe.
Eyeballing it, it looks to me like Snake Way is ~2/5 the length of the universe as the bird flies. That's a bit bigger than 1 million km.
That is more of a diagram of what he was going for and doesn't really give any specifics as to the actual size of the universe itself. Considering it also consists of the four main galaxies that're observed by the four King Kai's.
I don't believe the 1m km line was meant to be off base, but more refer to the distance between the Check-in Station and North Kai's planet as opposed to the length of the actual Road. Like the difference between flying (taking a plane) or driving (road map). Going by car would be a longer distance due to roundabouts, inclines, declines, winding roads, turns and other such things. Whereas taking a plane is much more of an arcing line straight from Point A to Point B.
That's why i say the Air Space here is 1mil km and that the Snake Way Road is more along the lines of 3mil km. Which would make more sense given the amount of time Goku spent on it.
Dodges Frieza`s death beams close range even while damaged and this in SSJ1 form not SSJ3.
That's impressive be we don't exactly know how fast said beams are going.
My point is that Goku is faster in overall combat speed, Superman usually accelerates when going in those speeds and he doesn`t react like Goku does when it comes to instinct and reflex when in dodging, or countering an enemies` moves.
He does accelerate,but when he does he is faster then Goku. When he see's Goku moving at fast speeds he would accelerate his speed on the spot and Superman has dodged and caught bullets and have dodged oppenets as well (albiet not as much as Goku) but he does do it occasionally and part of that could be because of the plot i mean they do not want Superman finishing off slow bricks like Mongul in a second do they? that does not make for interesting read.
Raditz dodged Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon which is FTL, the same beam Piccolo used to destroy the Moon in 1-2 second
How may seconds did it take exactly It take's reflected sunlight from the moon, 1.278 seconds to travel to the earth.To lightspeed seconds matter ex-specificity when Light 186,000 mps even a half a second matter.Also I could point out when it takes said beams longer to cross even shorter distances so that traveling to the moon in 1-2 seconds is pretty much inconsistent.
Raditz dodged Piccolo`s Special Beam Cannon which is FTL, the same beam Piccolo used to destroy the Moon in 1-2 second and Raditz`s
Read above.
Goku surpasses him during the Saiyan Saga I did not even include SSJ3, Kaioken or SSJ3 which enhance the level of performance in regards to ki and through all attributes are defined within DBZ.
I know Goku is fast very very fast i'm just saying I believe Superman is faster,and yes if you want I could make a case for Superman being light speed the same way you made one for Goku the problem is it won't be consistent just like the beams traveling to the moon is not.
Its really annoying, overused, and doesn't even apply to New 52 Superman or Pre-52 either. That's All-Star Superman, and as far as I know, they didn't use that version for the Death Battle.
@dccomicsrule2011: The beams I believe are hypersonic+ - being FTL.
Not really. Superman more so accelerates during flight, for sure he is FTL in flight speed but not combat speed he doesn't accelerate during combat that much and he limits himself, combat speed is not the same as flight speed also besides plot and him limiting himself he find it to being a consistent showing to his character but I understand what you mean. Goku should be able to catch Superman off guard and Goku has amazing experience in regards to fighting opponents who are extremely fast in combat and reflex such as Piccolo, Vegeta, Roshi and etc. While Superman gets bested by slower opponents such as Wonder Woman, Lobo, Hawkman, and etc. Many use his experienes with The Flash and Wonder Woman as examples or evidence of him fighting at light speed or responding in nanoseconds however those events are misinterpreted completely the same goes for him being able to apply the strength of carrying and lifting to striking which is not true he cannot harness or focus the same type of strength or force, there is too much of a difference for it to be so, lifting strength is not physical striking power.
Awesome point. However I can provide the calculations and source here for the actual calculations, Piccolo's beam is not a normal beam and in regards to short distance its more so him harnessing as well as focusing the beam, when he focused the beam when in firing at the Moon you could tell how fast it was going.
Superman is faster in flight not in combat speed, he accelerates in flight not combat, he hasn't shown or suggested the capability, Goku is far faster in combat and he has the feats to prove it, Superman's character is far more inconsistent also he doesn't start that way when in a fight he usually fights at normal or base levels, he doesn't go all out like Goku from the beginning.
Its really annoying, overused, and doesn't even apply to New 52 Superman or Pre-52 either. That's All-Star Superman, and as far as I know, they didn't use that version for the Death Battle.
Actually they did. It was basic equivalency. And that was after Superman had sundipped and tripled his strength.
@NeonGameWave said:
@dccomicsrule2011: The beams I believe are hypersonic+ - being FTL.
The instance with Piccolo's moonbusting can be estimated at around one-quarter lightspeed. And that was when he was at the level he was when facing Raditz. I've seen some haters try and argue that the beam took hours to hit the moon, even when we're all aware it took only a few seconds.
Some don't wish to admit or acknowledge that energy attacks in DBZ can move at these speeds, and that the visual in H2H fights couldn't be made to express this, simply because the Audience would then never actually see any fighting. It's the same with comics where the Readers can see Flash moving around and Supes going through space at FTL speeds even though we shouldn't be able to.
Some then argued Hercule and the camera crew seeing Goku while fighting Cell. Yeah, they did. When they Stopped Moving. It was already proven back in early Dragon Ball during the 21st Budokai Tournament that these guys were so fast Ordinary people couldn't perceive them. When Roshi (as Jackie Chun) fought Krillin in the tourny, they both had to actually stop and explain to the announcer in detail what just transpired in the space of an instant.
Superman held a device that held a mini black hole. Atom discover a device containing a black hole the size of a dust particle. The device almost opens up but superman says that he stopped it before it could be released. Superman is strained from the small bit of gravity that got out before it was released.
Larger particles - larger then 100 μm terminal velocities > 0.5 m/s fall out quickly includes hail, snow, insect debris, room dust, soot aggregates, coarse sand, gravel, and sea spray
This gives a black hole that size a mass comparable to the moon. Using this calculator: http://xaonon.dyndns.org/hawking/, and the moon's mass value here: 7.34767309 × 1022 kilograms, The gravitational feild energy of a black hole is half its mass-energy, so this feat is highish planet level.
Superman struggled moving Warworld
That warworld was the size of Pluto, but had the power of a galaxy pushing against Superman behind it, something that has an output able to propel Warworld across the galaxy at FTL speed, which Superman pushed against. That is beyond Moon level considering how much energy would be used in moving against Superman.
Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter failed to move the Earth… yet they did.
They didn’t fail to move the earth, hey did pull the earth, you can tell that with the smoke cloud coming from the earth. They just weren't doing it quickly enough,which is necessary because wonder woman's lassos could only hold the earth for a limited time, afterwards they'll have a hard time moving it without destroying it. Let’s look at what can be known in that scan.
Using ke and a timeframe of 10 seconds (Low end)
3.693^36 Joules = 8.826481836e+17 Gigatons of tnt
/3 = 2.94216061 × 10^17 Gigatons / 1,000,000,000,000,000 = 294.2 Yottatons for each one of them
Large planet level +
LOW END , Likely higher given their speed .
If superman only contributed a tenth of that, that would still be 29.4 YottaTons. Gravitational Binding Energy of the Earth is 60 ZettaTons.
The issue there was less about moving the Earth but getting it in control before the construct they were using to pull it, breaks. Otherwise moving it would provide hazardous to the Earth itself.
Superman can’t move at Lightspeed? The evidence shows otherwise. Also this:
The idea basing things solely on combat speed is stupid and flawed. If one has the capacity to move at a certain speed and react to various objects while travelling at that speed, then ‘combat speed’ is irrelevant. Example:
Character A has travel speed that’s FTL.
Character B has no quantifiable travel speed at all and there is nothing to state how fast their so-called 'combat speed' actually is.
Accepting that Character B is faster in combat than Character A is flawed then.
Superman’s Fight with Wonder Woman took place in less than two minutes while travelling from the Sun and back.
I've talked about this feat a lot but this is the first time I've actually tried to calc it. Max Lord is controlling Superman's mind and projecting an illusion to make him think Wonder Woman is Doomsday and that she just killed Lois. They fight both on Earth and into space, getting close to the sun before coming back. At the end, we get a timeframe, as Max Lord was using the Satellite/AI Brother Eye to record the fight. The whole thing took 1 minute and 54 seconds.
Now you might question the timeframe since Max Lord only begins the visual recording in the second scan, when they're already at the sun, however in the first scan he beings the tracking program right as they're leaving the Earth's atmosphere, and considering he said "start to finish", it makes more sense to assume the entire fight took place in that timeframe.
Next is to determine how close they got to the sun.
In the second scan, we can see the edge of the sun. There are a few panels in the pages following where the sun is so large behind them you can't see the edge, meaning they were likely closer, but that can't be measured so we can get a low-end distance from Earth here.
First some curvature scaling:
Diameter of the sun = 1,392,684 km, so the width of the visible part of the sun in the panel = 795,819.4286 km.
Width of panel = 642 pixels Height = 360 px.
2*atan(tan(70/2)*(642/360) = 102.62236652125963
Rescaling the width of the sun on the panel, since I missed a part that was slightly off to the left not covering the whole panel, I get 633 px.
Distance from the viewer to the sun = 323,190 km. I could use the calculator again to determine the distance from the viewer to Superman and Wonder Woman and then subtract that from the above value, but the distance would be so close it would be negligible so I think I can safely skip that step.
Distance from the Earth to the Sun: 149,597,870.7 km. Subtracting Supes and Diana's distance from the sun: 149,274,680.7 km. Doubling since they went there and back: 298,549,361.4 km. Divided by 1 minute and 54 seconds: 2,618,854.047 km/s or ~8.735556808c. The speed of light is 220 000 km/s so this feat is at least 12 times the speed of light.
Keep in mind this is an extreme low-end, as a large part of the fight took place on Earth after they returned, and they would have been fighting at much lower speeds within the atmosphere in order to avoid collateral damage, so the actual sun trip part of the fight might have taken only a few seconds even accounting for 'acceleration.'
Another feat measured in nanoseconds.
You cannot dismiss Superman flying Darkseid to the Sun as not FTL.
Talking about this scan:
A conversation which likely took less than 8 minutes, making it FTL. The feat would have been unreliable, but Superman and Wonder Woman’s fight earlier on would support the fact that going to the sun in a few minutes is something he’s capable of easily enough.
A weakened Superman couldn’t fight at light speed. Says the conclusion gathered here:
This, however is a durability feat that he failed to address. What is stated there was that the explosion was fifty times the size of Kepler’s Supernova, and he was still caught in it and survived. Radiation or not, he escaped a portion of it after the initial blast already hit his weakened form.
Not moving at light-speed in one scene doesn’t invalidate other speed feats.
He had to make a conscious effort not to go light speed.
Extra Information conveniently left out. (Many of which are also durability feats)
Superman going fast enough against another gravitational pull of a black hole.
The scan shows him with his feet in or very near to the black hole. It is also a very small black hole, and the smaller the black hole, paradoxically, the bigger the forces. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification
Quote:
The point at which tidal forces destroy an object or kill a person depends on the black hole's size. For a supermassive black hole, such as those found at a galaxy's center, this point lies within the event horizon, so an astronaut may cross the event horizon without noticing any squashing and pulling, although it remains only a matter of time, as once inside an event horizon, falling towards the center is inevitable. For small black holes whose Schwarzschild radius is much closer to the singularity, the tidal forces would kill even before the astronaut reaches the event horizon.
Survives the explosion of a star.
You can see a planet already being destroyed in the first panel yet Superman still survived such an explosion. There is no instance of Goku performing a similar feat.
Turns the wheels of the Mageddon. (Important Feat) Some people claim that he didn’t actually move anything but these scans say otherwise.
Superman has two notable feats involving Mageddon, the first being when he was captured by it and forced to turn its wheels to help move its body. The second was when he absorbed the power in the "anti-sun" warhead designed to wipe out the galaxy.
First of all, how big is Mageddon? In a word, Big. This is the clearest picture one could find of its whole body:
Yes, that's the sun in the foreground.
Now if one were to simply pixel scale it from the sun, I would be underestimating its real size, since it's further away from the viewer than the sun.
First I'll scale the sun and then use the angular size calculator to find the distance from the viewer:
Now as we were measuring the diameter of the sun from one visible edge to another, and the farthest edges would be on the plane bisecting the sun perpendicular to our angle of vision (crappy diagram to illustrate what I'm talking about):
This means the distance we got above is the distance from the viewer to the closest edge of the sun + the radius of the sun. Now since Mageddon is behind the sun, it is at least a further solar radius away, so it minimum distance would be 8,811,742 km (again, the real distance would be much greater than this, since Mageddon is obviously not physically touching the sun and there is likely a great deal of space between the sun and its body, but it's closer than the previous number).
Now I'll use the angular size calculator again, but this time I'll input the diameter of the sun and the distance I got above, then solve for the angle. I got 9.0367 degrees, which corresponds to 172.284989263888339368388306 px. This means the sun would appear this size if it was one further solar radius away. This is a difference of 108.5410869507457368286906617486%. So now I can pixel scale Mageddon from the sun, and multiply the numbers by this factor to get his size if he were one further solar radius away, which would be closer to his true size.
Since the edges of Mageddon's body extend past the page, I used the ellipse select and brush tools in GIMP to extend the outlines of its body. I think these are pretty accurate, considering they resemble the contours of an octopus, which Mageddon's shape seems to be based on.
Now to actually scale the thing.
Length = 1315px = 9,793,473.048 km. Applying the multiplier, we get 10,629,942.09652752877132682988964198651733 km.
Height = 1484px = 11,052,101.9 km. With the multiplier, it's 11,996,071.5331640216442127203722395938234 km.
We can't see the depth, but as it's a rough ellipsoid I believe the standard is to use the shortest known axis as the third axis.
Now for the tentacles. I couldn't find a pic showing their total length, so I'm going to have to lowball it and scale only the parts shown on-panel. There are 6 visible tentacles in the picture, 4 in the foreground and 2 in the background. They should all be the same size, roughly (just appearing different due to perspective). Scaling one of them gives it a width of 216.8893727 px, which equals (after applying the multiplier) 1,753,248.26848862672371842037765084468754 km. The visible length of the tentacle (394.5072876 px), using the same method, is 3,189,041.53892112151524991989311794619585 km.
Volume of a cylinder = pi * r^2 * h. So the volume of the visible part of one tentacle = 7,699,045,653,143,722,653.287106675773443006019493 1798365898948 km^3. Multiplying this by 6, we get 46,194,273,918,862,335,919.72264005464065803611695 90790195393688 km^3. Adding this to the volume of the head, we get a total volume for Mageddon of 756,207,336,148,564,535,919.7226400546406580361169 590790195393688 km^3.
Now for density. It was never stated what Mageddon was actually made of, but it must have been some pretty hardcore shit, considering it can not only maintain its non-spherical shape despite its size, but it casually shrugs off planet busters with no visible damage and it essentially pulled itself out of a black hole (not to mention its chains could restrain even Superman). Given these facts, I think the density of osmium(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmium) would be a very conservative estimate. Now obviously Mageddon is not completely solid, but as we are only measuring the part Superman pulled, which would be solid, that's immaterial (no pun intended).
The first scan has him ‘turning the endless millwheels.’
I'll estimate that 60% of Mageddon is empty space, so Superman would be pulling 40% of its volume: 302,482,934,459,425,814,367.8890560218562632144467 8363160781574752 km^3. Using the density of osmium, that's 6,833,089,489,438,429,146,570,613,775,533,732,986. 0143528422380205577364768 kg.
Now we just need to find the speed at which he pulled it. There was no indication that he was turning the wheels at any kind of insane relativistic or FTL super speed, but he was doing it fast enough to move the entire thing around in a reasonable amount of time. So as a low end I'll use the speed required to move Mageddon one of its own body lengths (measured by its shorter axis) in one hour, which is equal to 2952.7616934798691031463416360116629215 km/s.
Now KE = 0.5 * m * v^2. So the total energy involved in this feat is 29,788,175,849,874,416,436,740,588,643,341,052,300 ,501,390.153934195361739869296143779199863126295 joules, or7,119,544,897.197518268819452352614974259202053096 0645782 yottatons
@reikai: Not true, read my last post, im gonna upload more tomorrow, although PC supes is being used, his high end feats are being ignore, therefore he is also being low-balled.
@Ferdelance: LOL, exciting much?
@NeonGameWave: The problem with your arguement is that, you exclude all of supermans high end feats, you dont even look for them, then you assume everything through reaction speed, there hasnt been any proof as to how much goku is capable of as you have no proof to back it up- in short everythng about goku is an assumption theres never any proof, as for superman, its not, its there and its happened. As goku, i think his reaction speed is LS, his travel speed is hypersonic, his strength is in the 1000 or 10,000 range of tons, his durability is planetary and his intellect is that of a pea.
This ended long ago, I don't see anything new by anyone here or in that video of screwattack noobs using non-canon material like GT and whatnot. Just let the topic die no one here so far is illegible for this, and there is not enough to reach a final decisions due to lack of details, and the retcons due to different writers for superman in the mainstream.
Oh well, Rules here say current/final version, NEW52 GETS STOMPED.
@VinoVash1234: Very interesting read, you could surely get that "kakarot88" guy (http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-battle-erred-goku-vs-superman) from screwattack a run for his money.;).
I agree with you 110%, Goku was perhaps lowballed, but it's just ignorant to claim the same wasen't the case with Superman. They were both lowballed! But in the end a agree with the outcome nevertheless. Keep up the good work!
How may seconds did it take exactly It take's reflected sunlight from the moon, 1.278 seconds to travel to the earth.To lightspeed seconds matter ex-specificity when Light 186,000 mps even a half a second matter.Also I could point out when it takes said beams longer to cross even shorter distances so that traveling to the moon in 1-2 seconds is pretty much inconsistent.
The calculations and explanations are here, and can be found at this source.
Goku learned the Kamehameha immediately and can do the same. Villains and warriors dodge Kamehamehas regularly, Beams proven to be FTL. Heck, Raditz can dodge FTL and then his traverse speed was too slow to out run it:
Raditz was fast enough to dodge the FTL Kamehameha (as established by Roshi's moon feat) but Raditz's top long distance traverse speed was not enough to outrun it:
@VinoVash1234: I have seen many of Superman`s so called high end feats however the problem is that these feats are more so exaggerated then anything else and many resort to using the Flash race event as well as Wonder Woman fight for examples of his supposed FTL and nanosecond combat speed, however he is being greatly overestimated. Goku on the other hand is being underestimated he has many feats to back up his FTL combat speed performances its just no one believes that DBZ characters can reach that level but comic book characters are a favoured exception. Superman feats are very inconsistent and they contradict unlike Goku who`s feats although not 100% perfect are logically explained and demonstrated its just takes hard work as well as research to finding and understanding. Superman is not FTL in combat, he is in flight speed but he accelerates when in the performance of these feats, Goku does this naturally in his fights and he keeps improving. Goku is the better fighter and even though he might not be as durable, he at least has more tolerance for pain unlike Superman who needs the yellow sun to keep him stable and replenished, and I`m not trying to make Superman look weak, he outclasses Goku in physical strength, flight speed, intelligence and durability however Goku has the better fighting skills, variety of abilities that help within combat and he has the better striking power, Superman`s advantages are more so beneficial when it comes to saving the day, his physical strength is greater when it comes to lifting, his intelligence is not grounded within combat but more so within a situation where he has to save the people of earth and find out new things in regards to the world and defeating his villains, his speed is more beneficial when it comes to flying, these advantages are not linked to combat like Goku`s advantages. Its a fact that Goku is the better and more grounded fighter, he wins thanks to his superior combat abilities and destructive power.
Clearly Goku outnumbers Superman in this category, and his techniques are more useful, versatile and stronger in battle. Right off the bat his his Super Sayain levels increase his power level.
SSj = 50X multiplier
Full Power SSJ The Stronger Super Sayain after training in Hyperbolic time chamber Cell Saga
SSj2 = 100X multiplier
SSj3 = 400X multiplier
As seen his PL of Namek was 3 million, in SSJ it jumps up to 150 million. This is official by Akira Toriyama as writen in the Daizenshuus.
Goku has more experience with SSJ and SSj2 level he can use them without getting tired, but his SSJ3 tired him out, but puts him at insane levels of power. Also Super Sayain can provide new KI which can revive Stamina. Goku fought Frieza and went all out in base form, he was tired and beaten, but when he went SSJ he was perfectly fine.
Time it takes to transform
Now some people think that Goku takes 10 minutes just to transform into Super Sayain 3 and that Superman would just attack then. However this is terribly wrong. The only reason it took Goku long to do it was
A. Akira wanted to make it an epic moment
B. First time transforming in the living world
Needed to stall for Trunks
Goku later turns SSJ3 against Super buu(Gotenks absorbed) in an INSTANT
Coupled with this is his Kaio Ken Technique provides a boost of speed and power. And can be easily used up to 2-20X. Like in the battle vs Frieza where his speed and power jump insanely, also his K iblasts get stronger as well.
Of course, Solar Flare would not be of much use vs Superman since he flies to the sun on a regular basis. However Solar Flare can really be put to good use vs Superman. When Superman uses heat vision, Goku would use light as bright as the sun and stun. Leaving Goku with an opportunity to attack.
While Superman can use Heat Vision, he can only use it to a certain extent. He was only able to clear a feild of Clone Doomsday that even Batman could take down with an axe. Then he said he couldn't do that again. And was in pain after a shot like that.
WW clearing tanking the close range heat vision without much problem.
SSj Goku stood lightning which is as hot as the sun.
Ki attacks, Deadliest of Goku arsenal
Another thing to note is the speed at which ki is collected for the genki dama. In just a few minutes, ki from all over the universe and spirit realm were collected to make the genki dama which killed Majin Buu. An indication of how fast ki can travel.
Goku Ki blasts are deadly energy attacks that can easily blow up planets if he wanted to. He can put more or less energy into it if he wants to and can even make the beams turn.
Ki Sense is the ability to detect a person's Ki from great distances. Goku can detect people across the planet with ease. Now it is unsure whether Goku would detect Superman's KI, but Ki is living aura, everyone has it. The average human has a Power Level of 5, and Goku could sense other alies from across the Galaxy. So sensing Superman's Ki wouldn't be any different.
Also Superman can detect Goku with enhanced sense, so there would be no hiding on ether side. (Not that they would want to)
Was able to pinpoint Bulma's KI out of billions of people on Earth
Instant Tranmission
Goku's most versatile techniques. It's teleportation that can be used for multiple effects. It's so fast Goku can travel across the Galaxy and hit Namek in an instant.
Using the Instant Tranmission to travel across the galaxy, and between dimensons to Namek.
His Instant Transmission speed is thousands of times faster then light, and can be used to cross dimensions between living and dead. This would be a huge factor and requires little to no Ki.
Goku has trained to use it without putting a finger to his head.
Goku also uses it in combat vs Cell and Kid Buu as defensive purposes and offensive purposes
Furthermore instant transmission can teleport other people on contact. This could be used by Goku to move Superman to another location away from the sun, draining him of his solar reserves.
Warp- Kamehameha
If Goku and Superman ever fought, this would be one of Gokus trump cards. This technique allows Goku to power up a Kamehameha, then instant tranmission right to the enemy and blast it straight in his face.
Over the DBZ series Goku has shown signs of telepathy and emotion reading. As seen in the scans above he predicts Trunks attack not hitting him. This would help him dodge attacks, and sense what Superman's going to do as soon at the thought reaches Supermans mind.
Goku's telekensis can be used in combat as a push and can lift objects. Frieza lifted a mountain and threw it at Goku, this was when Frieza was only using 1% of his power. Goku can do much, much more.
Goku using Telekensis vs Frieza
Cell also shows this ability and Goku is much stronger when SSj2
Now let's look at Base Goku on Namek. He kicks Frieza through two mountains + resistance from the bottom of the ocean and throws him through. And both of them were just warming up.
Now as said in the durability section, Frieza had +++++Planet busting durability, as he survived Namek exploding chopped in half.
And this is all Base Goku, SSJ could do this in his sleep let alone SSj2 and SSJ3.
Goku's martial arts
Goku is an amazing martial arts fighter and one of the best ever in Dragon Ball Z, ever since Goku was a kid he trained in martial arts. He has been trained by the Legendary Martial arts Master, Master Roshi in the Turtle School and has been trained by the God King Kai as an adult. Furthermore Goku trained by himself for tournaments and has self-taught himself in martial arts when he left Master Roshi.
Furthermore Goku is a Sayain meaning it's in his instinct to fight, he actually enjoys it. This is a factor because he would enjoy fighting Superman and wouldn't be disouraged.
Kami a god praises Goku on his fighting sense, and that he always evolves and learns the opponents techniques. He would have no trouble doing it to Superman.
God is literally praising Goku for his fighting and tactics.
Goku is a martial arts master and is constantly learning, and always finding out a weakness in his enemy. Goku thinks on his feet in battle, this is seen when he exhales strongly to change the trajectory of his descent and throw off his opponent, Chappa O at the 22nd Budokai.
Goku was able to actually invent a new martial arts style based on animal mimicry during the heat of battle, to counter Muten Roshi's Sui Ken (drunkenfist) at the 21st Budokai. In addition to fighting entire battles at very high speeds and blocking, parrying and countering attacks with blinding speed.
Goku also utilizes grappling moves in certain situations
Kid Goku smart enough Exhales to stop his trajectory
In DBZ fights they fight in martial arts and can block, dodge, parry, grab and attack at incredible speed. If you watched the Anime you will see there intense fights, here are some scans of Goku martial arts fighting at incredible speed, and intensity.
However Superman is mostly a brawler and doesn't have the skills to combat martial arts masters. For example Wonder woman who is -Weaker
-Slower in flight speed (Only Supersonic/Hypersonic)
-Less abilities
-Less durability
However due to her having amazing combat skills and speed she goes toe to toe with a bloodlusted Superman(who thinks Wonder Woman is Doomsday) in Infinite Crisis, and they go blow for blow, with actually Wonder Woman using her martial arts to get the advantage.
Furthermore Goku fights martial arts through instinct and feels the life force(KI) of his opponent when he cannot see them, and feels the movement and anticipates the attacks of who he is fighting.
Feeling the air currents when he can't see, and determining Yakons moves.
Because of Goku's martial arts, fighting ability, and overall training he should beat Superman. Goku trained his entire life, while Superman had to go to school, and be Clark Kent with his wife Lois.
Reminds me of Haggar vs Zangief, and how Zangief didn't have to have a normal life like Haggar allowing him more training, and becoming a better fighter.
Goku uses various types marital arts, techniques, uses weaknesses to his advantage and always come out ahead even facing stronger opponents. Goku trained by gods and masters, is definitly the better fighter.
Combat Speed
Goku as a kid
Goku's combat speed is one of the fastest of all characters. Kid Goku has been going hypersonic combat speed in his fights.
As an adult Goku can go way above FTL combat speed but that will be explained later on.
Now See Krillin and Master Roshi (who are both slower then Goku) fighting an entire fight in a 1/10 of a second, reacting and thinking at centisecond. Meaning Goku's reaction time is insane.
Goku who could dodge lasers, bullets, and fight and react at 1/100th of a second couldn't keep up with PoPo. Lightning travels at 0.5 the speed of light, meaning Kid Goku's combat speed is half of light speed.
As an Adult
Adult Goku's combat speed only increases to outstanding feats.
Kami who is more powerful then Mr. Popo can't keep up with Goku's combat speed at the end of DragonBall. God's eyes can't keep up with Goku's combat speed.
Now let's look at Dragon Ball z Combat speed.
We all know that Piccolo blew up the moon in about 2 seconds. Light takes 1.23 seconds to travel to the Earth from the Moon. And the time it takes the light to refract back to Piccolo, meaning his blast was FTL.
It's literally called, the Beam of Light and if Piccolo can fire a blast that destroys the moon in a second, then his charged more percise beam reached light speed.
And Raditz then goes to say that the Sayains are even stronger then he is.
Goku reacting to Nappa mouth beam at a very short distance and Vegeta is amazed he managed to use his the Kamehameha in time.
Now we can see Goku going so fast that Recoome, Burter and Jeice couldn't keep up with him and appears right behind them. And those three had PL of 40, 000+
Now there is proof that like the characters, the beams they use increase in speed, as seen here with Freeza. As Piccolo who destroyed the moon at light speed and fired a faster attack at Raditz, cannot see Freeza's beams. Meaning his Death Beams were way faster then light.
Goku in Base blocks these FTL deathbeams casually.
Goku goes Faster then light speed to break out of Frieza's imprisonment Light ball.
Note: Piccolo compares Goku's speed to a god and explains it.
If Goku was going anything below light speed he would of been hit by the blinding light, but he isn't, and moved faster then light to dodge it a an instant.
SSJ = 50X
SSJ2 = 100X
SSJ3 = 400X
Now i'm not saying Goku is 400X faster then light in combat speed, but he far surpasses Light Speed in base, and the Super Sayains already multiply that.
Although Goku's combat speed doesn't end there
Goku has in his combat speed is the use of Shunkan Ido (Instant Transmission) IT has been shown to go from earth to the afterlife (and in doing so passing the 1 mill KM snake way and Enma Daio's) INSTANTLY. Then IT was used again and this time went from a place beyond heaven, past the 1mill KM's, all the kai planets and all the afterlife, to Namek, which is in another galaxy than earth.
The idea that it is only light speed comes from the english dub error and is wrong. It is truly instant and Goku uses it in combat, and will against Superman
@Kuffs: Whats even better is the fact that this is just the begining, ill upload more tomorrow, you see even with all of gokus calculations, he's still nowhere near superman, and considering that im only using post-crisis, final crisis superman of post crisis will be over-kill.
@NeonGameWave: Did you not see the striking feats I gave for Superman? There's no way Goku has ever shown anything to match causing a huge crater in a moon, punching someone from Metropolis to Hawaii or from the Sun to Earth nor the durability to take such hits. So add striking power to that too please as you haven't proven Goku can hit harder than Superman. Nor can you I doubt
And his stamina is weak too. At best Goku can exert himself for maybe a day and that's being generous. Superman's survived on stored energy for 3 days. And I really don't see how Goku is FTL combat speed. There's no measurement of him moving at FTL speeds as dccomicsrules points out. As for your other points, they rely greatly on supposition and assumptions that these guys are holding back/controlling their ki when few have shown actual planet busting let alone solar system busting capacity
And finally I also don't like being labelled a Superman fanboy but when one such as you tosses the fanboy word about as a generalisation, it really shows what kind of position they're in. So if you want to avoid that criticism, lessen up on throwing that around
Instant Tranmission
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