#901 Edited by MPfly88 (179 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

@mpfly88:

1. The tiara stopped him, it didn't defeat him. He didn't roll on his back like a dog. As soon as he recovered, which I promise you would not have taken long, he would have gone straight at her again. He also got taken by surprise by the Tiara because he didn't expect Doomsday to throw it at him, which leads to my next point.

The thing the real WW fans look at is way before the tiara. How the entire fight she takes everything he has. She dodges most of his attacks easily and he doesn't dodge hers. How when she drops him she chooses to go after Lord instead. She had plenty of opportunity during that fight to end him.

2. Superman thought he was fighting Doomsday the whole time. And mind you, Doomsday is a very different fighter than Wonder Woman. How Superman fights Doomsday, is not how he would fight Diana.

This argument is decent but flawed. Superman can no longer beat Doomsday in a physical fight. He has to find a way to BFR him or get rid of him. He was mad and went at him with all he had. Doomsday is a tougher opponent than Wonder Woman.

3. Wonder Woman was NOT holding back during the fight. You're gonna sit there and tell me she wasn't trying against a bloodlusted Superman that was trying to kill her? Bull. Oh i'm sure Diana wasn't taken the fight seriously when he was in the middle of frying her face and breaking her wrist.

Have you actually read the fight?

1. Was that some lame attempt to say i'm not a "real fan" of WW?

2. First off Superman didn't go after Doomsday with everything he had. He was holding back during the fight because he wanted him to suffer first. There are panels showing this. In fact I believe Delta1938 showed the panel of this back in the battle between SM and WW(With Mjonir). I actually forgot about that little detail, but I refreshed my memory on it these past few hours. Secondly how Superman fights Doomsday, and how he fights Wonder Woman, does make a huge difference. Doomsday doesn't share the same tactics in combat that Diana does. Not even close. This is why Superman fought brawler style with Doomsday, and why Wonder Woman took him by surprise. Triple H is tougher than Jet Li. That doesn't mean the tactics someone uses to win a fight against Triple H would work on Jet Li.

3. She said she "barely" held back. This can only mean she didn't want to take it to the point where'd she try and kill him, but knocking him out or incapacitating him in some way were fair game. Which she couldn't do. She could only hold him back long enough to kill Max. I don't know what "opportunities" she had to end him that you're talking about. He was constantly going after her after each hit he took. She didn't have her sword either so good luck with that. If she did have her sword then it's possible she could've kill him, but again he wasn't aware he was fighting Wonder Woman.

In any other normal circumstances, Wonder Woman wouldn't have gotten as lucky as she did here. Superman is a lot smarter than people give credit, and he does know how to fight. It's just that most of the time he doesn't have to because his powers are enough. You don't think a clear headed Superman who isn't holding back, can't beat Diana? Because he has.

#902 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

It hasn't helped her to a win. And for the record I do think Wonder Woman has a 4/10 chance of winning. It'd be close that's for certain. Skill has helped her in other fights but Superman's versatility and experience does balance things out. What you forget is that neither has taken a clear majority over the other. In that Sacrifice fight you're so fond of spamming out of context, Wonder Woman only holds off rather than beats Superman. Look at the next text box in that scan of yours. "I need to buy time." Do try and get the right interpretation of the fight.She's not going for the win, she knows she can only stall Superman. She suffered damage as did Superman. Plus the tiara slice was also nullified by Superman's healing factor too.

She's never tried to win. She always just tries to stop him. She has just as much experience has he does. I know neither has ever ever clearly won but it's the way she handles him when they have fought. She can take/block all of his attacks and she can hurt him. I didn't use that fight out of context. I was very specific in why I referenced that.

"The thing the real WW fans look at is way before the tiara. How the entire fight she takes everything he has. She dodges most of his attacks easily and he doesn't dodge hers. How when she drops him she chooses to go after Lord instead. She had plenty of opportunity during that fight to end him."

^^^ My comment to mpfly. She has him in a position several times where she could do some serious damage to him but doesn't. Her fight isn't with him. He isn't the source. She knows that. i always disregard the Tiara thing. He can dodge the Lasso but not the Tiara. I dunno. Just something off about that.

#903 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@mpfly88 said:

2. First off Superman didn't go after Doomsday with everything he had. He was holding back during the fight because he wanted him to suffer first. There are panels showing this. In fact I believe Delta1938 showed the panel of this back in the battle between SM and WW(With Mjonir). I actually forgot about that little detail, but I refreshed my memory on it these past few hours. Secondly how Superman fights Doomsday, and how he fights Wonder Woman, does make a huge difference. Doomsday doesn't share the same tactics in combat that Diana does. Not even close. This is why Superman fought brawler style with Doomsday, and why Wonder Woman took him by surprise. Triple H is tougher than Jet Li. That doesn't mean the tactics someone uses to win a fight against Triple H would work on Jet Li.

3. She said she "barely" held back. This can only mean she didn't want to take it to the point where'd she try and kill him, but knocking him out or incapacitating him in some way were fair game. Which she couldn't do. She could only hold him back long enough to kill Max. I don't know what "opportunities" she had to end him that you're talking about. He was constantly going after her after each hit he took. She didn't have her sword either so good luck with that. If she did have her sword then it's possible she could've kill him, but again he wasn't aware he was fighting Wonder Woman.

In any other normal circumstances, Wonder Woman wouldn't have gotten as lucky as she did here. Superman is a lot smarter than people give credit, and he does know how to fight. It's just that most of the time he doesn't have to because his powers are enough. You don't think a clear headed Superman who isn't holding back, can't beat Diana? Because he has.

1) Sort of. Someone who knows the character wouldn't downplay her the way you are.

2) I remember Superman saying that but facts are facts. He can't beat Doomsday in a physical fight. He knows that. How would Superman fight Wonder Woman differently? It's the same where it counts. Doomsday is stronger more durable and arguably faster than she is. Triple H and Jet Li are real life. Comic book fights are a little different. The powers levels and stuff. Whatever someone did to beat Triple H would probably work on Jet too lol.

3) I took "barely" to mean she didn't WANT to beat him unconscious or cause significant damage to him. She had the fight somewhat under control at that point. She had him down and stunned several times. Her tiara could have killed him.

Superman is smart and no one can take that away from him, it's just she's smarter when it comes to combat. It's how she was raised. Plus the wisdom from the goddess of wisdom and strategy. I'm not saying he can't beat her. I'm saying she definitely takes a majority. A clear headed Superman who isn't holding back sounds like an oxymoron.

#904 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio
#905 Edited by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:

If the writers were competent, Superman would have slaughtered Doomsday. What makes you think he can't break Diana like a twig? To say that Supes will most of the time is ludicrous; it's like the people who think Hulk can beat Flash.

#906 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#907 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

She's never tried to win. She always just tries to stop him. She has just as much experience has he does. I know neither has ever ever clearly won but it's the way she handles him when they have fought. She can take/block all of his attacks and she can hurt him. I didn't use that fight out of context. I was very specific in why I referenced that.

OK she does have as much experience as he does, I'll grant that now. But if you're going to pull up the way Wonder Woman handles Superman in their fights, I can easily do the same. In a League of One (PISy as it was) Diana admitted she couldn't actually beat Superman or at least that she needed to save him til last to deal with so that he could go save the others whilst she dealt with the dragon. And there was a time when Superman got mind controlled by a vampire when he clobbered WW all over the place. And in Sacrifice he was really pushing Wonder Woman on her toes to survive. Superman's far more durable than Diana is and likewise can tank what she throws at him. His durability feats place him as being able to take all sorts of attacks as opposed to Diana's not so good showings against piercing attacks like those from bullets or arrows. Or blunt force. When it comes down to a straight out fight, Superman should be able to outlast her and his versatility adds something to the mix to counter Diana's skill.

#908 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:

If the writers were competent, Superman would have slaughtered Doomsday. What makes you think he can't break Diana like a twig? To say that Supes will most of the time is ludicrous; it's like the people who think Hulk can beat Flash.

The writers wanted a true unbeatable opponent. They made Doomsday. Certain people think Hulk beats everyone. He has unlimited strength and blah blah blah.

@hardcorefakes: Doomsday was created specifically to kill superman

He was created before Krypton was inhabitable. His creator wanted an ultimate survivor. It's what he got.

@lvenger said:

@pokeysteve said:

She's never tried to win. She always just tries to stop him. She has just as much experience has he does. I know neither has ever ever clearly won but it's the way she handles him when they have fought. She can take/block all of his attacks and she can hurt him. I didn't use that fight out of context. I was very specific in why I referenced that.

OK she does have as much experience as he does, I'll grant that now. But if you're going to pull up the way Wonder Woman handles Superman in their fights, I can easily do the same. In a League of One (PISy as it was) Diana admitted she couldn't actually beat Superman or at least that she needed to save him til last to deal with so that he could go save the others whilst she dealt with the dragon. And there was a time when Superman got mind controlled by a vampire when he clobbered WW all over the place. And in Sacrifice he was really pushing Wonder Woman on her toes to survive. Superman's far more durable than Diana is and likewise can tank what she throws at him. His durability feats place him as being able to take all sorts of attacks as opposed to Diana's not so good showings against piercing attacks like those from bullets or arrows. Or blunt force. When it comes down to a straight out fight, Superman should be able to outlast her and his versatility adds something to the mix to counter Diana's skill.

Even though she goes through the League, I never reference LoO. The whole story seems off. It doesn't matter what she said because of what she's shown. When Superman was mind controlled by the vampire she still handled him. People post that ONE out of context scan of the infamous back hand. Sacrifice, she handled him pretty well. When Circe had him under her control, that was tough for her. She's bad with piercing weapons but I think she has blunt force feats right up there with him. She tanks a nuke, shrugs off Zoom's punch and stuff like that. She's also magic remember. Chips at his durability a lot quicker. Along with Martian Manhunter, these are the two most formidable heroes in DC. Of course all of their fights would be close.

#909 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Even though she goes through the League, I never reference LoO. The whole story seems off. It doesn't matter what she said because of what she's shown. When Superman was mind controlled by the vampire she still handled him. People post that ONE out of context scan of the infamous back hand. Sacrifice, she handled him pretty well. When Circe had him under her control, that was tough for her. She's bad with piercing weapons but I think she has blunt force feats right up there with him. She tanks a nuke, shrugs off Zoom's punch and stuff like that. She's also magic remember. Chips at his durability a lot quicker. Along with Martian Manhunter, these are the two most formidable heroes in DC. Of course all of their fights would be close.

Agreed it did seem off. And note I didn't post that scan out of context. But she did struggle in that fight. As she did in the Sacrifice fight. All she could do was stall him then once she'd distracted him with some birds or something like that slice his neck which was healing very quickly before she killed Lord. The nuke scan is impressive as is the Zoom one but it's nothing Superman can't equal in terms of feats. And as for the magic argument, I find it quite unsubstantial. People do spam that out of context and although Wonder Woman was empowered by the gods, I haven't seen her perform any magical feats Pre Flashpoint. Care to provide proof of this because it's never been a factor in any of those other fights? Plus Captain Marvel has used his magic lightning on Superman and he's shrugged it off easily. Even grabbed Billy's mouth to stop him saying it again. So if Billy's actual magical attack can't beat Superman, I doubt Wonder Woman's 'magical' attacks will. And she doesn't have any to my knowledge. Aside from magical weapons.

#910 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio
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#911 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really fair to apply this to a Pre-52 Superman though mate. That was done during Kingdom Come and a far superior Superman fought against Billy from absorbing all the Yellow sunlight over the years.

Not just then my friend. It also happened in a Pre Flashpoint issue of Superman #216 - Lightning Strikes Twice Part 3 when Eclipso possed Superman and fought Captain Marvel. I have the scans to prove it. @lvenger said:

#912 Edited by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Good call! My mind instantly revered to thinking of Kingdom Come as he specifically grabbed Billy's mouth to prevent him from speaking whilst in those scans he more so choked him.

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#913 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: To be honest I should have made it clear that it was this fight I was talking about rather than the Kingdom Come one. That was a good fight too.

#914 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: You've seen these before .....

and Billy has KO'd Superman with a magically powered sucker punch .... but more to the point....Wonder Woman doesn't really use offensive "spells" besides the magic lightning (if it is even considered a spell). The difference between Billy and Diana using it is that Diana doesn't run the risk of turning into a child and risking the entire fight, also she can pour it on instead of one singular bolt of lightning. It's like the difference between a bolt action sniper rifle and a machine gun, or a taser and a flame thrower ..... he has one shot at a time and a period of vulnerability, she can blast him down and keep it on him for extended periods of time. But anyway, that's all she's got that I know of that's a magical energy based projectile....other than that it's her gear...thats all im clarifying.

#915 Edited by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I don't have a fond memory of that issue so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Eclipso inhabiting Superman's body allow for slightly enhanced protection against magical abilities because Clark seemed pretty confident a single blast would injure him enough to make his body useless if Eclipso took over.

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#916 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: You've seen these before .....

and Billy has KO'd Superman with a magically powered sucker punch .... but more to the point....Wonder Woman doesn't really use offensive "spells" besides the magic lightning (if it is even considered a spell). The difference between Billy and Diana using it is that Diana doesn't run the risk of turning into a child and risking the entire fight, also she can pour it on instead of one singular bolt of lightning. It's like the difference between a bolt action sniper rifle and a machine gun, or a taser and a flame thrower ..... he has one shot at a time and a period of vulnerability, she can blast him down and keep it on him for extended periods of time. But anyway, that's all she's got that I know of that's a magical energy based projectile....other than that it's her gear...thats all im clarifying.

I have. But Diana hardly uses them in most fights. She didn't in the Sacrifice one when she would have needed to anyway. And Billy's magical punch was a one time use which Billy has never used again in Pre Flashpoint continuity. So a one time feat like that can be discounted in favour of the more consistent showings of Superman being able to tank Billy's lightning bolt which I provided above. Nice analogy and it helps to reinforce your point well. The only thing I have to question is whether Diana's lightning attack from her bracelets has been confirmed to be magical in nature. Plus Superman is capable of seeing lightning in slow motion so chances are he can dodge it handily. It's not like Billy's homing in lightning.

#917 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: It's been brought up before but I don't recall any mention of Superman being enhanced in any way by Eclipso's possession against magical attacks. He's survived magical transmutation lightning that de-evolved the rest of the League which included Wally, Wonder Woman (who is supposed to be more resistant to magical attacks than Superman), MM and Zauriel amongst others. So it's not too far reaching to claim that Superman is at least capable of resisting some magical attacks. At least the non lethal ones.

#918 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Fair enough and it is a good point. Superman is more than capable of surviving magical attacks and from what I know, Diana has none in her possession besides her lasso and tiara which she rarely has ever used with lethal intention except to break Superman from Lord's spell.

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#919 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: Actually she does have the ability to fire lightning bolts from her bracelets. Since they were made from the remains of Zeus' shield, they have lightning powers. That's comic books for you. I have yet to confirm whether they're a magical attack or not though.

#920 Edited by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Zeus' shield? That makes no sense but alright, not really well versed in Wonder Woman lore! :P

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#921 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Well, the only time her magical lightning has been used was in her solo series, which had a different writer. The writer in Sacrifice probably didn't know about that ability or just didn't consider it. The fact that she doesn't use it in most fights doesn't really matter, it's like how Superman doesn't use martial arts in most fights, but we know he is skilled since he's used them in more than one fight (at least like 3). As for the sucker punch, I think billy did it twice...that one where he's holding his hand, and I remember him doing it a second time, but it was also a cheap shot....

Diana's lightning is magical in nature due to the fact that they are generated from the Aegis Bracers which were forged from Zeus's Aegis Shield and the shield contained his power, it is also stated that the bracers through the fragments of the shield can channel Zeus's magical bolts. So, it is magical .... Wonder Woman can also see Lightning and react to it with absolute ease...

I'm not implying you mean to say that she can't, but the way she uses it is different than Billy's use since it comes out of her bracers and off her hands which move faster than lightning, it's almost tactile, due to the proximity it's used in mostly. It's faster than Billy's because it's straight off her hands and she doesn't have to shout a word and wait for it....know what I mean? You pickin up what I'm puttin down, you smellin what I'm cookin, you catchin what im throwin, you lookin where I'm pointin.... etc...

#922 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget: she's used her tiara to kill a weak god once, you've probably seen it...

#923 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Well, the only time her magical lightning has been used was in her solo series, which had a different writer. The writer in Sacrifice probably didn't know about that ability or just didn't consider it. The fact that she doesn't use it in most fights doesn't really matter, it's like how Superman doesn't use martial arts in most fights, but we know he is skilled since he's used them in more than one fight (at least like 3). As for the sucker punch, I think billy did it twice...that one where he's holding his hand, and I remember him doing it a second time, but it was also a cheap shot....

A fair point. But I can only recall one sucker punch from Billy. Oh wait I thought of the other. The other was when Power Girl, who was being mind controlled, kissed Superman thus distracting him for Billy to whomp him. Superman has also suckered Billy whilst mind controlled so their showings whilst mind controlled are a bit iffy in judging any victories.

Diana's lightning is magical in nature due to the fact that they are generated from the Aegis Bracers which were forged from Zeus's Aegis Shield and the shield contained his power, it is also stated that the bracers through the fragments of the shield can channel Zeus's magical bolts. So, it is magical .... Wonder Woman can also see Lightning and react to it with absolute ease...

So that's specified within the series then? All right, I'll chalk that up to being a magical attack. But it's not as if Superman hasn't faced an attack like this before. And I never doubted WW's combat and reaction speeds. Those put her on at least an equal footing with Superman.

I'm not implying you mean to say that she can't, but the way she uses it is different than Billy's use since it comes out of her bracers and off her hands which move faster than lightning, it's almost tactile, due to the proximity it's used in mostly. It's faster than Billy's because it's straight off her hands and she doesn't have to shout a word and wait for it....know what I mean? You pickin up what I'm puttin down, you smellin what I'm cookin, you catchin what im throwin, you lookin where I'm pointin.... etc...

Yes I'm smelling what you're cooking. But you're not comparing the speed of Billy's lightning to Diana's. Granted Diana can produce it far quicker and for longer than Billy but the speed between their respective lightning attacks hasn't been measured yet.

#924 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

A fair point. But I can only recall one sucker punch from Billy. Oh wait I thought of the other. The other was when Power Girl, who was being mind controlled, kissed Superman thus distracting him for Billy to whomp him. Superman has also suckered Billy whilst mind controlled so their showings whilst mind controlled are a bit iffy in judging any victories.

That's the one, but yeah, the point about magical sucker punches is all I was trying to make.

@lvenger said:

So that's specified within the series then? All right, I'll chalk that up to being a magical attack. But it's not as if Superman hasn't faced an attack like this before. And I never doubted WW's combat and reaction speeds. Those put her on at least an equal footing with Superman.

Yep, it's in there, I just can't find the scans, but its the same info in every bio about how Zeus's Aegis shield was broken by Cronos and was reforged into bracers, then how his energy is channeled through them...but anyway, yeah it's nothing new, considering he's had to face Livewire numerous times.

@lvenger said:

Yes I'm smelling what you're cooking. But you're not comparing the speed of Billy's lightning to Diana's. Granted Diana can produce it far quicker and for longer than Billy but the speed between their respective lightning attacks hasn't been measured yet.

Na, I'm not comparing them in the sense of actual travel speed....like you said, it is unspecified...also I was wrong about the lightning from the bracers being tactile due to the fact that they were able to reach from under the water and into the sky in the first scan i showed...even if it's the same speed as Billy's though, she way she can use it allows her flexibility and unpredictability, Superman knows the lightning will strike where ever Billy is making it extremely predictable especially since he shouts shazam and it comes a second later. Wonder Woman can release it in an instant, and though long range wouldn't be of much use since Superman can dodge it, close range would get him.

#925 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep, it's in there, I just can't find the scans, but its the same info in every bio about how Zeus's Aegis shield was broken by Cronos and was reforged into bracers, then how his energy is channeled through them...but anyway, yeah it's nothing new, considering he's had to face Livewire numerous times.

To be honest, regarding Livewire, she's only harmed Superman Pre Flashpoint when he was weakened or she was amped. But nice understanding of WW lore there.

Na, I'm not comparing them in the sense of actual travel speed....like you said, it is unspecified...also I was wrong about the lightning from the bracers being tactile due to the fact that they were able to reach from under the water and into the sky in the first scan i showed...even if it's the same speed as Billy's though, she way she can use it allows her flexibility and unpredictability, Superman knows the lightning will strike where ever Billy is making it extremely predictable especially since he shouts shazam and it comes a second later. Wonder Woman can release it in an instant, and though long range wouldn't be of much use since Superman can dodge it, close range would get him.

Yeah Billy's having to speak a magic word ruins the element of surprise that Wonder Woman might have with a magical attack like the one she can muster. I suppose a close range attack like the one you've provided could get Superman. My only query is whether it'll be enough to drastically turn the tide in the fight.

#926 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

To be honest, regarding Livewire, she's only harmed Superman Pre Flashpoint when he was weakened or she was amped. But nice understanding of WW lore there.

True, and thanks.

@lvenger said:

Yeah Billy's having to speak a magic word ruins the element of surprise that Wonder Woman might have with a magical attack like the one she can muster. I suppose a close range attack like the one you've provided could get Superman. My only query is whether it'll be enough to drastically turn the tide in the fight.

Well, considering that Wonder Woman has an answer for many of Superman's abilities, as well as faster regen and magic stuffs, making this fight quite even, I think it will be enough cus it gives her a slight advantage...not drastically, but enough to give her more wins. Also, lightning at the very least has been able to stun him, magic lightning even moreso. Stunning Superman could give her the opening needed to use more lethal attacks like her tiara and lasso which could kill him.

Strength=Superman

Travel Speed= Superman

Durability=Superman

Versatility=Superman

Reaction Speed=Wonder Woman

Skill=Wonder Woman

Regeneration=Wonder Woman

Defense=Wonder Woman

The only advantage Wonder Woman has that matters is magic .... other than that, her other qualities seem to clash with Superman's. Both are capable of winning, but magic is what makes and breaks this IMO.

#927 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

.
@betatesthighlander1 said:

@hardcorefakes: Doomsday was created specifically to kill superman

He was created before Krypton was inhabitable. His creator wanted an ultimate survivor. It's what he got.

I meant created by the writers to kill Superman anyways, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

#928 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, considering that Wonder Woman has an answer for many of Superman's abilities, as well as faster regen and magic stuffs, making this fight quite even, I think it will be enough cus it gives her a slight advantage...not drastically, but enough to give her more wins. Also, lightning at the very least has been able to stun him, magic lightning even moreso. Stunning Superman could give her the opening needed to use more lethal attacks like her tiara and lasso which could kill him.

Strength=Superman

Travel Speed= Superman

Durability=Superman

Versatility=Superman

Reaction Speed=Wonder Woman

Skill=Wonder Woman

Regeneration=Wonder Woman

Defense=Wonder Woman

The only advantage Wonder Woman has that matters is magic .... other than that, her other qualities seem to clash with Superman's. Both are capable of winning, but magic is what makes and breaks this IMO.

Faster regeneration? I haven't seen any healing factor feats from Wonder Woman at all, let alone ones that are faster than Superman. And good analysis. I guess from my perspective, it's Superman's slight superiority in strength, durability and versatility that just give him the win. But Wonder Woman's skill and defense are definitely capable of making this close.

#929 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Faster regeneration? I haven't seen any healing factor feats from Wonder Woman at all, let alone ones that are faster than Superman. And good analysis. I guess from my perspective, it's Superman's slight superiority in strength, durability and versatility that just give him the win. But Wonder Woman's skill and defense are definitely capable of making this close.

Wonder Woman vs Decay (Wonder Woman v2 # 4)

The enemy she is facing is called Decay, you can guess what her powers are....her regen is explained in that scan.

This is Circe and she has a forcefield that eats away at whatever Circe doesn't allow within....

Regen FTW....it's mostly influenced by the lasso...

And, I agree with you on the evaluation, it's mainly an even fight, both have slight advantages....personally now that I think about it, Wonder Woman being a trained killer will influence the battle whether Superman is in character or not, but once he goes in and brings it to the sun like he's done to both her and Darkseid...he will win. But only if he brings it up there, I want to include the god wave but its just not relevant enough....

#930 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days: Interesting. Those are some good regeneration feats for Wonder Woman. Thanks for the illustration!

#931 Posted by Onemoreposter (4088 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman goes all Hercules and cuff's her. Game over.

#932 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Agreed it did seem off. And note I didn't post that scan out of context. But she did struggle in that fight. As she did in the Sacrifice fight. All she could do was stall him then once she'd distracted him with some birds or something like that slice his neck which was healing very quickly before she killed Lord. The nuke scan is impressive as is the Zoom one but it's nothing Superman can't equal in terms of feats. And as for the magic argument, I find it quite unsubstantial. People do spam that out of context and although Wonder Woman was empowered by the gods, I haven't seen her perform any magical feats Pre Flashpoint. Care to provide proof of this because it's never been a factor in any of those other fights? Plus Captain Marvel has used his magic lightning on Superman and he's shrugged it off easily. Even grabbed Billy's mouth to stop him saying it again. So if Billy's actual magical attack can't beat Superman, I doubt Wonder Woman's 'magical' attacks will. And she doesn't have any to my knowledge. Aside from magical weapons.

They both struggle in all of their fights. That's why this thread is 19 pages long lol it's a great fight. When I talk about magic with her I don't mean as a weapon type thing but more so how Cap Marvel's punches and what not seem to do more damage. I'm not sure if writers have ever pointed that out in any of their fights. She exists because of the gods. She is magically empowered like Marvel. Her lighting from her Bracelets is a mystery. Caps Shazam lightning is magical but he's been changed by regular old lighting so who knows what's going on there.

@ancient_0f_days: @lvenger:

I have. But Diana hardly uses them in most fights. She didn't in the Sacrifice one when she would have needed to anyway.

Zeus unlocked this ability of her Bracelets in Wonder Woman #39 of her 3rd volume. That volume ran 5 more issues. She didn't have that ability in any of their fights. The fact that Superman has had trouble with electricity has always bugged the crap out of me.

#933 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

.
@betatesthighlander1 said:

@hardcorefakes: Doomsday was created specifically to kill superman

He was created before Krypton was inhabitable. His creator wanted an ultimate survivor. It's what he got.

I meant created by the writers to kill Superman anyways, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

If you meant in real life than I agree. I thought you meant that's why he was created IN the comics.

#934 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

They both struggle in all of their fights. That's why this thread is 19 pages long lol it's a great fight. When I talk about magic with her I don't mean as a weapon type thing but more so how Cap Marvel's punches and what not seem to do more damage. I'm not sure if writers have ever pointed that out in any of their fights. She exists because of the gods. She is magically empowered like Marvel. Her lighting from her Bracelets is a mystery. Caps Shazam lightning is magical but he's been changed by regular old lighting so who knows what's going on there.

I was specifically referred to magical abilities Wonder Woman possessed. She's shown to have a greater defense to magical attacks than Superman but I haven't seen her use magic in an offensive way. It's the same with Captain Marvel. He may have more resistance to magical attacks than Superman but aside from that one dodgy lightning punch, he doesn't have much in the way of offensive magical attacks. At least on the go ones. I don't think her powers coming from the gods who I guess fall into the realm of magic in a sense influence her offensive capabilities.

Zeus unlocked this ability of her Bracelets in Wonder Woman #39 of her 3rd volume. That volume ran 5 more issues. She didn't have that ability in any of their fights. The fact that Superman has had trouble with electricity has always bugged the crap out of me.

So was this after the Sacrifice fight? The volume that started with Gail Simone's run on Wonder Woman where she was a Federal agent or something like that? If so then I can see why she didn't have access to that ability. Furthermore, Superman's showings against electricity are a tad dodgy. Livewire has been the main one to hurt him and she's only done so when he was weakened or she was amped.

#935 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

She doesn't have any magical attacks that I know of other than the lighting and that's iffy.

So was this after the Sacrifice fight? The volume that started with Gail Simone's run on Wonder Woman where she was a Federal agent or something like that? If so then I can see why she didn't have access to that ability. Furthermore, Superman's showings against electricity are a tad dodgy. Livewire has been the main one to hurt him and she's only done so when he was weakened or she was amped.

It was way after. Yup the Simone volume. The one where Circe was able to tie her powers in with her costume so she was powerless when she wasn't wearing it. Don't get me started. I think Livewire was kind of like Harley. She was a fan favorite so they added her to comics. Animated Supe was really weakened down though and it didn't translate as well.

#936 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

It was way after. Yup the Simone volume. The one where Circe was able to tie her powers in with her costume so she was powerless when she wasn't wearing it. Don't get me started. I think Livewire was kind of like Harley. She was a fan favorite so they added her to comics. Animated Supe was really weakened down though and it didn't translate as well.

Yeah it was another fan favourite addition like Harley Quinn. DCAU Superman was much weaker and only slightly grew in power each season. For Livewire to be a threat to Pre Flashpoint Superman, she had to be amped or fight Superman when he was weak. I never liked the adaptation of Livewire to the DCU. Didn't work as well as Harley's.

#937 Posted by laflux (17550 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@pokeysteve said:

She's never tried to win. She always just tries to stop him. She has just as much experience has he does. I know neither has ever ever clearly won but it's the way she handles him when they have fought. She can take/block all of his attacks and she can hurt him. I didn't use that fight out of context. I was very specific in why I referenced that.

OK she does have as much experience as he does, I'll grant that now. But if you're going to pull up the way Wonder Woman handles Superman in their fights, I can easily do the same. In a League of One (PISy as it was) Diana admitted she couldn't actually beat Superman or at least that she needed to save him til last to deal with so that he could go save the others whilst she dealt with the dragon.

I do think an argument can be made either way, but League of One was very PISy. Diana can handle Flash and MM, but not Superman? Smell fishy.................

#938 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Yes it was PISy even though Diana had prep time. Some of the ways that issue was written were poor. Like Batman being able to give WW a short fight. WTF?

#939 Posted by MPfly88 (179 posts) - - Show Bio

What does PISy mean? I can't even google it.

#940 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@mpfly88: PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidity. That'll give you something to google.

#941 Edited by MPfly88 (179 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@mpfly88: PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidity. That'll give you something to google.

Ah thanks for clearing that. While i'm not gonna give me two cents on League of One as a whole, I don't look at Wonder Woman losing to Superman as a case of PIS. I'll put it this way...

If she wanted to fight Superman, really fight him, then she wouldn't have given up like that. But in the case of League of One, I believe Diana knew if she fought him in a straight up fight, there was a pretty good chance she'd lose. Chance, I want to be fair here and avoid using the word "will". So she didn't risk going through that amount of trouble.

#942 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@pokeysteve said:

It was way after. Yup the Simone volume. The one where Circe was able to tie her powers in with her costume so she was powerless when she wasn't wearing it. Don't get me started. I think Livewire was kind of like Harley. She was a fan favorite so they added her to comics. Animated Supe was really weakened down though and it didn't translate as well.

Yeah it was another fan favourite addition like Harley Quinn. DCAU Superman was much weaker and only slightly grew in power each season. For Livewire to be a threat to Pre Flashpoint Superman, she had to be amped or fight Superman when he was weak. I never liked the adaptation of Livewire to the DCU. Didn't work as well as Harley's.

I didn't either. They should have made her a nuisance villain like Prankster or maybe Toyman. Not REAL threats to Clark but to the city.

#943 Posted by AngryHulks (3001 posts) - - Show Bio

If I remembered correctly, Wonder Woman once said that she couldn't truly beat Superman by herself.

#944 Posted by Spidermeat101 (260 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidermeat101 said:

@pokeysteve said:

@spidermeat101 said:

@pokeysteve said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm telling you flat out they wiil not and have not helped him with her. The Lasso isn't an issue. He will not be able to hit her pressure points. He'll barely be able to hit her. This is not my opinion. This has been SHOWN ON PANEL.

So now Wonder is too untouchable for Superman?If so,then why was Superman able to hit her when they were fighting.No it's not shown on panel because he was hitting her on the panels.This has gotten no where for me.And can you prove to me that Wonder Woman's lasso will be able to catch Superman who is on the other side of the world?

She isn't untouchable but he isn't going to be able to scan for pressure points, locate them, and then hit them all. She's not just gonna stand there while he's doing all that and now that I think of it, I don't think he's ever done that before. He gets hits in but it's on panel when she gets serious he has trouble hitting her AND that was when she was holding back. Stop worrying about the Lasso. It's a non factor here. But couldn't she just, I dunno, maybe follow him to the other side of the world if she wanted to Lasso him?

There strength, speed, and durability is all similar. His extra abilities aren't useful here. She has him out skilled and that's why she beats him. That's why she could always beat him.

I take that back.Actually,Superman has the speed to get a scan to do it to her.I never said she'll stop just for him to do it,but he's fast enough to do it.If you don't know Superman's speed,I suggest you read the comic where he races Flash.

That's travel speed and doesn't apply in a fight. Flash usually holds back in those races since they're for charity. Superman has no speed feats that put him anywhere near Flash. Especially Wally. Everyone has a speed feat against Flash. He'll be able to scan her but probably not hit her in the areas he needs too. And like I said before, I don't think he's ever done that. Neither has Supergirl or Power Girl against WW and Supergirl has some Amazon training from Artemis.

Yes it does.

#945 Posted by Spidermeat101 (260 posts) - - Show Bio

@mpfly88 said:

2. First off Superman didn't go after Doomsday with everything he had. He was holding back during the fight because he wanted him to suffer first. There are panels showing this. In fact I believe Delta1938 showed the panel of this back in the battle between SM and WW(With Mjonir). I actually forgot about that little detail, but I refreshed my memory on it these past few hours. Secondly how Superman fights Doomsday, and how he fights Wonder Woman, does make a huge difference. Doomsday doesn't share the same tactics in combat that Diana does. Not even close. This is why Superman fought brawler style with Doomsday, and why Wonder Woman took him by surprise. Triple H is tougher than Jet Li. That doesn't mean the tactics someone uses to win a fight against Triple H would work on Jet Li.

3. She said she "barely" held back. This can only mean she didn't want to take it to the point where'd she try and kill him, but knocking him out or incapacitating him in some way were fair game. Which she couldn't do. She could only hold him back long enough to kill Max. I don't know what "opportunities" she had to end him that you're talking about. He was constantly going after her after each hit he took. She didn't have her sword either so good luck with that. If she did have her sword then it's possible she could've kill him, but again he wasn't aware he was fighting Wonder Woman.

In any other normal circumstances, Wonder Woman wouldn't have gotten as lucky as she did here. Superman is a lot smarter than people give credit, and he does know how to fight. It's just that most of the time he doesn't have to because his powers are enough. You don't think a clear headed Superman who isn't holding back, can't beat Diana? Because he has.

1) Sort of. Someone who knows the character wouldn't downplay her the way you are.

2) I remember Superman saying that but facts are facts. He can't beat Doomsday in a physical fight. He knows that. How would Superman fight Wonder Woman differently? It's the same where it counts. Doomsday is stronger more durable and arguably faster than she is. Triple H and Jet Li are real life. Comic book fights are a little different. The powers levels and stuff. Whatever someone did to beat Triple H would probably work on Jet too lol.

3) I took "barely" to mean she didn't WANT to beat him unconscious or cause significant damage to him. She had the fight somewhat under control at that point. She had him down and stunned several times. Her tiara could have killed him.

Superman is smart and no one can take that away from him, it's just she's smarter when it comes to combat. It's how she was raised. Plus the wisdom from the goddess of wisdom and strategy. I'm not saying he can't beat her. I'm saying she definitely takes a majority. A clear headed Superman who isn't holding back sounds like an oxymoron.

You underrate Superman.

#946 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't either. They should have made her a nuisance villain like Prankster or maybe Toyman. Not REAL threats to Clark but to the city.

That would have made far more sense than what she was in the comics. More of a danger to others than Superman.

@mpfly88 said:

Ah thanks for clearing that. While i'm not gonna give me two cents on League of One as a whole, I don't look at Wonder Woman losing to Superman as a case of PIS. I'll put it this way...

If she wanted to fight Superman, really fight him, then she wouldn't have given up like that. But in the case of League of One, I believe Diana knew if she fought him in a straight up fight, there was a pretty good chance she'd lose. Chance, I want to be fair here and avoid using the word "will". So she didn't risk going through that amount of trouble.

League of One is a very dubious source for trying to cite how Wonder Woman might deal with Superman for certain. To be honest it could fall either side. Both are evenly matched and don't have clear cut advantages over the other. It's a matter of whether one set of advantages outweighs the other.

#947 Posted by Pokeysteve (8543 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidermeat101:

You overrate Superman and underrate Wonder Woman.

@lvenger said:

@pokeysteve said:

I didn't either. They should have made her a nuisance villain like Prankster or maybe Toyman. Not REAL threats to Clark but to the city.

That would have made far more sense than what she was in the comics. More of a danger to others than Superman.

@mpfly88 said:

Ah thanks for clearing that. While i'm not gonna give me two cents on League of One as a whole, I don't look at Wonder Woman losing to Superman as a case of PIS. I'll put it this way...

If she wanted to fight Superman, really fight him, then she wouldn't have given up like that. But in the case of League of One, I believe Diana knew if she fought him in a straight up fight, there was a pretty good chance she'd lose. Chance, I want to be fair here and avoid using the word "will". So she didn't risk going through that amount of trouble.

League of One is a very dubious source for trying to cite how Wonder Woman might deal with Superman for certain. To be honest it could fall either side. Both are evenly matched and don't have clear cut advantages over the other. It's a matter of whether one set of advantages outweighs the other.

Agreed. It contradicts everything we've seen from both of them. I see this fight as her skill vs his durability.

#948 Posted by Spidermeat101 (260 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidermeat101:

You overrate Superman and underrate Wonder Woman.

Nah,I'm doing good.Superman is smart.He'll find a way to win.

#949 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12349 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve said:

@spidermeat101:

You overrate Superman and underrate Wonder Woman.

Nah,I'm doing good.Superman is smart.He'll find a way to win.

too bad I and several others gave reasons why Wonder Woman would get 5.5-6/10 on Superman...You have no argument......

#950 Posted by Spidermeat101 (260 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidermeat101 said:

@pokeysteve said:

@spidermeat101:

You overrate Superman and underrate Wonder Woman.

Nah,I'm doing good.Superman is smart.He'll find a way to win.

too bad I and several others gave reasons why Wonder Woman would get 5.5-6/10 on Superman...You have no argument......

Too bad.I have an argument.