#1 Edited by dorukesin (6955 posts) - - Show Bio
Pre-Flashpoint Clark

vs

New52 Diana and Clark

RULES

  • Bloodlust:ON
  • Morals:OFF
  • Out Character
  • Fight to the death
  • Pre52 Clark is fighting for Lois
  • Pre52 Clark have 30 minutes sundip

Fight Song

#2 Posted by Pizzaman (777 posts) - - Show Bio

New52 team wins.

#3 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-Flashpoint Superman.

#5 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

With the Sundip, I say Pre52 Wins. Without, New52 Supes could maybe solo.

#6 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

With the Sundip, I say Pre52 Wins. Without, New52 could maybe solo.

New-52 can't solo. At all.

#7 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

This is rather strange. Technically, Pre-52 is New-52 Superman.

#8 Posted by dorukesin (6955 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

This is rather strange. Technically, Pre-52 is New-52 Superman.

New-Earth Superman

#9 Edited by reaverlation (17115 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

This is rather strange. Technically, Pre-52 is New-52 Superman.

Hmmm?

Also Pre 52 Superman.New 52 Superman lacks overall power compared to his Pre 52 counterpart. New 52 Diana basically lacks feats lol

#10 Posted by Pizzaman (777 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Is New52 Wonder Woman and Pre52 Wonder Woman on the same level of strength? I also thought New52 Supes was bench-pressing the Earth in an early Superman issue. Wouldn't that put him above Pre52 Superman? If so they could at least survive long enough for the sundip to wear off.

#11 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

This is rather strange. Technically, Pre-52 is New-52 Superman.

New-Earth Superman

@frozen said:

This is rather strange. Technically, Pre-52 is New-52 Superman.

Hmmm?

Also Pre 52 Superman.New 52 Superman lacks overall power compared to his Pre 52 counterpart. New 52 Diana basically lacks feats lol

New Earth Superman was retconned into the New-52, so they're the same person, technically.

@pizzaman said:

@frozen: Is New52 Wonder Woman and Pre52 Wonder Woman on the same level of strength? I also thought New52 Supes was bench-pressing the Earth in an early Superman issue. Wouldn't that put him above Pre52 Superman? If so they could at least survive long enough for the sundip to wear off.

Benching The Earth is very high end and PIS-ish.

#12 Posted by dorukesin (6955 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo said:

With the Sundip, I say Pre52 Wins. Without, New52 Supes could maybe solo.

New52 Superman is nowhere against Post Crisis Superman.thats because I gave him Wonder Woman

#13 Posted by reaverlation (17115 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: The only strength feat besides the Earth feat that makes New 52 Superman noticeable is when he pushed away Warworld.

#14 Posted by Pizzaman (777 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: How was that PIS? I'm not trying to start an argument but i used to read Superman on and off and i just started reading Superman regularly. I'm out of the loop so i'm trying to catch up on stuff.

#15 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation said:

@frozen: The only strength feat besides the Earth feat that makes New 52 Superman noticeable is when he pushed away Warworld.

Yes, though were Warworld's thrusters working?

@pizzaman said:

@frozen: How was that PIS? I'm not trying to start an argument but i used to read Superman on and off and i just started reading Superman regularly. I'm out of the loop so i'm trying to catch up on stuff.

Completely inconsistent with the rest of his stories.

#16 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@dorukesin said:

@deaditegonzo said:

With the Sundip, I say Pre52 Wins. Without, New52 Supes could maybe solo.

New52 Superman is nowhere against Post Crisis Superman.thats because I gave him Wonder Woman

I disagree. Pre52 Superman only has New52 Supes distinctly and clearly beat in the category of durability.

#17 Posted by dondave (38906 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52

#18 Posted by Experio (17270 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52 Superman

#19 Posted by reaverlation (17115 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Don't think so. Clark seemed like he effortlessly pushed it away.In fact,it almost if not was moon size.

#20 Posted by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@reaverlation said:

@frozen: The only strength feat besides the Earth feat that makes New 52 Superman noticeable is when he pushed away Warworld.

Yes, though were Warworld's thrusters working?

@pizzaman said:

@frozen: How was that PIS? I'm not trying to start an argument but i used to read Superman on and off and i just started reading Superman regularly. I'm out of the loop so i'm trying to catch up on stuff.

Completely inconsistent with the rest of his stories.

Because we expect Superman to move planets all the time.......right??

#21 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation said:

@frozen: Don't think so. Clark seemed like he effortlessly pushed it away.In fact,it almost if not was moon size.

If the thursters were working, then that's an amazing feat because Pre-Flashpoint Superman with a 15 minute sundip moved Warworld. However, the thrusters enable it to move at light-speed so he was moving far more than Pluto's mass.

If the thrusters were not working, then it's quite good but below Moon level.

#22 Posted by dorukesin (6955 posts) - - Show Bio

I disagree. Pre52 Superman only has New52 Supes distinctly and clearly beat in the category of durability.

only lifting strength goes for New52 Superman

speed,durability,striking,vision power etc. goes for Pre52

#23 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@dorukesin said:

@deaditegonzo said:

With the Sundip, I say Pre52 Wins. Without, New52 Supes could maybe solo.

New52 Superman is nowhere against Post Crisis Superman.thats because I gave him Wonder Woman

I disagree. Pre52 Superman only has New52 Supes distinctly and clearly beat in the category of durability.

That's not true, Lobdell's PIS feat aside, Pre-Flashpoint is stronger, hits harder and faster.

#24 Edited by reaverlation (17115 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001: Well if there was a need to then Superman should be the right candidate for the job

@frozen:agreed.

#25 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@dorukesin said:

@deaditegonzo said:

I disagree. Pre52 Superman only has New52 Supes distinctly and clearly beat in the category of durability.

only lifting strength goes for New52 Superman

speed,durability,striking,vision power etc. goes for Pre52

See, a lot of Pre52 Superman speed feats are up to debate. He doesnt have as many speed feats back then that can be as easily clocked as New52 Supermans Pluto to the Earth, mere seconds slower than teleportation, in Red Hood and the Outlaws.

I'd also say striking is up for debate. I will give Pre52 Heat Vision, but I dont really feel its all that relevant in a fight between the two. And New52 Supes even has more than just heat vision, he can do various forms of radioactive visions. Id also give cold breath to new52, what with him freezing molecules.

I dont think Lobdells feat is PIS, the viners that do will have a hard time having a debate with me about New52 Supes, because we wont even agree on the evidence.

#26 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@dorukesin said:

@deaditegonzo said:

I disagree. Pre52 Superman only has New52 Supes distinctly and clearly beat in the category of durability.

only lifting strength goes for New52 Superman

speed,durability,striking,vision power etc. goes for Pre52

See, a lot of Pre52 Superman speed feats are up to debate. He doesnt have as many speed feats back then that can be as easily clocked as New52 Supermans Pluto to the Earth, mere seconds slower than teleportation, in Red Hood and the Outlaws.

I'd also say striking is up for debate. I will give Pre52 Heat Vision, but I dont really feel its all that relevant in a fight between the two. And New52 Supes even has more than just heat vision, he can do various forms of radioactive visions. Id also give cold breath to new52, what with him freezing molecules.

  • Pre-Flashpoint Superman is much faster in combat
  • Pre-Flashpoint Superman strikes much harder
  • Pre-Flashpoint Superman has more powerful heat vision
#27 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@deaditegonzo said:

@dorukesin said:

@deaditegonzo said:

I disagree. Pre52 Superman only has New52 Supes distinctly and clearly beat in the category of durability.

only lifting strength goes for New52 Superman

speed,durability,striking,vision power etc. goes for Pre52

See, a lot of Pre52 Superman speed feats are up to debate. He doesnt have as many speed feats back then that can be as easily clocked as New52 Supermans Pluto to the Earth, mere seconds slower than teleportation, in Red Hood and the Outlaws.

I'd also say striking is up for debate. I will give Pre52 Heat Vision, but I dont really feel its all that relevant in a fight between the two. And New52 Supes even has more than just heat vision, he can do various forms of radioactive visions. Id also give cold breath to new52, what with him freezing molecules.

  • Pre-Flashpoint Superman is much faster in combat
  • Pre-Flashpoint Superman strikes much harder
  • Pre-Flashpoint Superman has more powerful heat vision

Since you dont give any examples, i guess I just have to disagree. I think you are confusing MORE feats with better feats. Two different concepts.

#28 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: No, I'm not.

  • Plethora of speed feats, blitzing a kryptonian squadron and showings with Flashes
  • Punched through space/time
  • IIRC his heat-vision heated a planet
#29 Edited by DemonKnights (5394 posts) - - Show Bio

#30 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@deaditegonzo: No, I'm not.

  • Plethora of speed feats, blitzing a kryptonian squadron and showings with Flashes
  • Punched through space/time
  • IIRC his heat-vision heated a planet

I already said his heat vision was better.

New52 Supes easily flicked Flash, he could have knocked his head off. He has rushed and blitzed quite a few times.

Pre52 Kal-El and Kal-L punching eachother did that. And yeah, it is probably the best striking feat ive seen in a comic, but really, that could be more easily called PIS than New52 Superman's lifting feat. Are you telling me that when fighting Darkseid, or all those times Supes fought Doomsday, they never hit eachother as hard as they could? And if they did, why didnt time and space shatter?

That is a high end Superman feat, and if you only count the top end Pre52 Superman feats then: 1) He can lift eternity and has done so on two occasions 2) His punches can shatter reality 3) His durability is obviously beyond the universal level, as he survived that reality destroying punch 4) His perception is such that light stands still 5) His speed is equal to the Flashes', save for Wally West, etc.

Me, I usually make a mental scale, and combine the low end and the high end, and compare the characters at the high-middle side for fairness. So Pre52 Superman is slower than all Flash's, Jay included, his durability is at the level where he can survive Solar System ending events (such as Supernovas and Black Holes), his strength is such that he can move the moon and even 1/3 of the Earth's weight, his punches can shatter moons easily but even planets if it were called for, his heat vision is hotter than the core of a star and capable of being broad enough to encapsulate a planet or narrow enough to cut cells, etc. Compare that visualization of the character to the New52 version, and then you'll see where im coming from.

Disregard what anyone else tries to tell you, Pre52 Superman, if only his high level showings are taken into account, is cosmic, and easily more powerful than any character below skyfather level.

#31 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo:

New52 Supes easily flicked Flash, he could have knocked his head off. He has rushed and blitzed quite a few times.

It took him a dozen tries and his rushing feats aren't the best. He sucker-blitzed Shazam and Shazam still sent him flying with a punch.

Pre52 Kal-El and Kal-L punching eachother did that. And yeah, it is probably the best striking feat ive seen in a comic, but really, that could be more easily called PIS than New52 Superman's lifting feat. Are you telling me that when fighting Darkseid, or all those times Supes fought Doomsday, they never hit eachother as hard as they could? And if they did, why didnt time and space shatter?

No, I don't think so. Darkseid usually smacks him around and there's a context to the space/time feat, there is no context to Lobdell's high end feat.

That is a high end Superman feat, and if you only count the top end Pre52 Superman feats then: 1) He can lift eternity and has done so on two occasions 2) His punches can shatter reality 3) His durability is obviously beyond the universal level, as he survived that reality destroying punch 4) His perception is such that stands still 5) His speed is equal to the Flash's, save for Wally West, etc.

I consider this a high-end PIS feat for Pre-Flashpoint (Superman and Captain Marvel doing so, though they are equal in strength).

Me, I usually make a mental scale, and combine the low end and the high end, and compare the characters at the high-middle side for fairness. So Pre52 Superman is slower than all Flash's, Jay included, his durability is at the level where he can survive Solar System ending events (such as Supernovas and Black Holes), his strength is such that he can move the moon and even 1/3 of the Earth's weight, his punches can shatter moons easily but even planets if it were called for, his heat vision is hotter than the core of a star and capable of being broad enough to encapsulate a planet or narrow enough to cut cells, etc. Compare that visualization of the character to the New52 version, and then you'll see where im coming from.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman is slightly than Jay. Again again, I don't take into account ''solar system'' explosions because it's purely damage soak. I take into accounts showings agianst characters, to which Pre-Flashpoint Superman is superior. The New-52 Superman hasn't shown himself to that level yet, as he's in the process of gaining such feats.

#32 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: I like actually quantifiable feats. Feats like: Supes took a punch from Captain Marvel or whatever dont mean much to me, because no one can say what the actual force of that punch is. Same with the opposite: Supes punched Green Lanterns face. And? How hard is that punch? A solar system explosion says a lot to me as far as durability, because we on Earth know that such an explosion would erase everything we've ever known.

I also think the reality shattering punch from Infinite Crisis is more PIS-y than New52 Supes lifting Earth. I like the feat a lot, but it is way out of everyday Pre52 Superman's abilities to accomplish. So agree to disagree I guess.

#33 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: I like actually quantifiable feats. Feats like: Supes took a punch from Captain Marvel or whatever dont mean much to me, because no one can say what the actual force of that punch is. Same with the opposite: Supes punched Green Lanterns face. And? How hard is that punch? A solar system explosion says a lot to me as far as durability, because we on Earth know that such an explosion would erase everything we've ever known.

I also think the reality shattering punch from Infinite Crisis is more PIS-y than New52 Supes lifting Earth. I like the feat a lot, but it is way out of everyday Pre52 Superman's abilities to accomplish. So agree to disagree I guess.

I disagree. ''Solar system busting attacks'' is meaningless in combat and to me that's nothing more than damage soak. With punches, there is a consistency and it's a combat feat. In combat, durability is modified due to writing and generally, damage soak is not considered.

I don't think it was. Agree to disagree.

#34 Posted by Jayc1324 (13543 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: how are pre new 52 and new 52 superman the same person?

#36 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@frozen: how are pre new 52 and new 52 superman the same person?

They are technically the same being. The events of Flashpoint affected the New Earth versions, so imagine it as altered timelines, the Pre-52 Superman became the New-52 Superman.

#37 Posted by Jayc1324 (13543 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: so same physical body but different histories and memories? And is the same for all new 52 characters?

#38 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@jayc1324 said:

@frozen: so same physical body but different histories and memories? And is the same for all new 52 characters?

Same people in essence/bodies, different histories. Basically yes. Flashpoint affected them.

#39 Posted by Wolverine08 (45707 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre 52.

#40 Edited by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

Without the sun dip team 2.

Honestly, the way i see it , its just lack of feats, else current Superman looks every bit as impressive. He has pretty cool feat.

#41 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

Without the sun dip team 2.

Honestly, the way i see it , its just lack of feats, else current Superman looks every bit as impressive. He has pretty cool feat.

I disagree. Without the sundip, still Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Lack of feats speak volume, though he's done good for his number of appearances, if that's what you're saying, that still doesn't give the team a win.

#42 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by theONEtaichou (1564 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@killemall said:

Without the sun dip team 2.

Honestly, the way i see it , its just lack of feats, else current Superman looks every bit as impressive. He has pretty cool feat.

I disagree. Without the sundip, still Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Lack of feats speak volume, though he's done good for his number of appearances, if that's what you're saying, that still doesn't give the team a win.

...respectfully I have to disagree. It's quality that counts not quantity. New52 does have quality feats to hang with pre52, add in Diana also, well...

I still favour pre52 though just on fighting prowess and experience. An unfair advantage due to greater feats.

good day

#44 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@killemall said:

Without the sun dip team 2.

Honestly, the way i see it , its just lack of feats, else current Superman looks every bit as impressive. He has pretty cool feat.

I disagree. Without the sundip, still Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Lack of feats speak volume, though he's done good for his number of appearances, if that's what you're saying, that still doesn't give the team a win.

...respectfully I have to disagree. It's quality that counts not quantity. New52 does have quality feats to hang with pre52, add in Diana also, well...

I still favour pre52 though just on fighting prowess and experience. An unfair advantage due to greater feats.

good day

Nobody is denying that they don't have good feats (Wonder Woman has yet to impress me) however Pre-Flashpoint Superman has them outclassed.

#45 Posted by Lvenger (21257 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: I don't see why New 52 Superman tagging New 52 Barry supercedes any of Pre New 52 Superman's speed feats. Pre Flashpoint Superman uses his speed way more effectively than New 52 Superman. He speedblitzes both in terms of bullrushes and multi hit combos as well as using phasing to avoid some attacks. In terms of combat speed, New 52 Barry still doesn't supercede Pre New 52 Barry who was casually moving at FTL speeds in combat. Technically, New 52 Barry hasn't had a FTL showing in the New 52 to date both in travel speed and combat speed. By contrast, Pre New 52 Supes has tagged Professor Zoom who is Pre 52 Barry Allen's equal in speed. That's the kind of speed feats that make Pre New 52 superior in speed.

As for striking power, I'll ignore the space/time one for a second. Pre New 52 has still busted moons with his blows, decked Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth, punched Captain Marvel over 2,000 miles to Hawaii, caused the ground to quake with his punches and has one shotted numerously powerful foes. Only the Earth shaking punch stands up to these punches and even then the quantity of evidence is not in New 52 Supes' favour.

#46 Posted by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: With the Earth shaking punch, all he has to do is punch hard enough and the tectonic plates will do their work, considering he's a powerhouse, it's feasible. Regarding punching Captain Marvel, I always found that to be a good durability feat for Billy.

#47 Posted by Lvenger (21257 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Exactly, it doesn't necessarily surpass Pre New 52 Superman's moon busting punches in destructive output.

#48 Edited by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:


I disagree. Without the sundip, still Pre-Flashpoint Superman. Lack of feats speak volume, though he's done good for his number of appearances, if that's what you're saying, that still doesn't give the team a win.

I understand the lack of feat speaks volume, but its not like current Superman is really lacking feat at all in any department, he just has less number of feats.

@lvenger said:

@deaditegonzo: I don't see why New 52 Superman tagging New 52 Barry supercedes any of Pre New 52 Superman's speed feats. Pre Flashpoint Superman uses his speed way more effectively than New 52 Superman.

I disagree with this, and please bare in mind that i accept , on sheer number of feats you will have better from pre 52 Superman (specially under durability).

And tagging Barry is cool, but he has plenty of other feats that suggest he is extremely fast.

Like being able to keep up with Flash when Flash himself mentions he has just run few circles around Earth

When Appolo hit him , which supercharged Superman, he had to wear it off by running 300 circles around the earth, not a very feasible method if you dont consider him extremely fast

Even accounting for a sundip, this does say a lot about his speed.

Furthermore, the whole conversation with John (which was later retconned into them being trapped inside their own mind by Despero), Superman certainly thought he could go around faster than light and circles Earth enough time to reverse everything.

We also have the whole Pluto to Earth under a minute feat, and give the number of times that feat has been posted not reposting it.

Then we have the whole fight with Luthor, where Superman, a weaked one at that, drops Luthor, in middle of a fight, goes to the sun, sundips himself, comes back and blitzed Luthor by the time he can get up.

On top of that we have couple of really cool speed feats from young superman, alongside the idea that Superman was getting gradually more powerful, makes it hard to see him not being just as fast as his pre new 52 counterpart.

First the whole idea that young Clark was getting stronger and faster everyday.

Then we have couple of feats, that while not easy to quantify, will certainly give us a clear idea that he is extremely fast.

Like building house at superspeed without 2 pages.

We have seen him read through 10 years worth of research in 5 minutes, understand them, and them perform the said surgery.

Or being able to process enough data in seconds, which would take Super Computer years to process.

I really think we have enough speed feats to suggest Superman, in the new chronology , isnt really much slower.

He speedblitzes both in terms of bullrushes and multi hit combos as well as using phasing to avoid some attacks.

Phasing through attack aside , current Superman has done both really, and pretty consistently at that.

Blitzing a fire monster from Earth to outer atmosphere.

Blitzing Orion, with both bullrushing and multi-hit combos.

Blitzing Parasite

Blitzing Straith

then blitzing the whole Pax Galaxia

Pre New 52 has still busted moons with his blows, decked Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth, punched Captain Marvel over 2,000 miles to Hawaii, caused the ground to quake with his punches and has one shotted numerously powerful foes. Only the Earth shaking punch stands up to these punches and even then the quantity of evidence is not in New 52 Supes' favour.

This i can honestly agree with but just to be fair, we do have the whole statement that the said Earth shaking feat required more strength than lifting Earth for 5 days straight, although to be fair, for the oddest reason, the page immediately before the said earth shaking feat seem to suggest its a mountain busting punch.

That was really weird.

Then we have a couple of insulation about Superman power really.

Batman seem to think he could probably punch a moon into dust.

We also have Starfire thinking Superman could drop kick the moon out of orbit

In short, what i am trying to say is, ok yeah Superman lacks feats on durability (not saying he doesnt have some really cool durability feat, perhaps for the next post :p ), and striking power compared to the older counterpart, he does have feats in other areas that are just as good. We also have couple of statement, which while doesnt count as a proof, does give us an indication that its not too hard to imagine as time goes on, he is going to collect enough feat to match those areas too.

Its a new character, he has limited feat, but i dont really think new version was made to be any weaker than the old version, if anything the current version looks just as impressive and is more ruthless.

#49 Edited by Frozen (16587 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

Its a new character, he has limited feat, but i dont really think new version was made to be any weaker than the old version, if anything the current version looks just as impressive and is more ruthless.

The problem with this is that for every good feat New-52 Superman has, Pre-Flashpoint Superman will have the same feats and better feats. New-52 Superman cannot perceive anywhere near as fast as Pre-Flashpoint Superman (New-52 Superman can only perceive in milliseconds whereas Pre-Flashpoint Superman can perceive in nanoseconds) and his feat of holding The Earth for 5 days is PIS/high-end.

IIRC, Pre-Flashpoint Superman has tagged Barry on a number of occasions. If we take combat speed then Pre-Flashpoint has him beat, he's blitzed a kryptonian squadron, Doomsday, etc.

I don't really believe the New-52 Superman is written to be superior but he's not quite written to be Pre-Flashpoint's superior. For example, KC Superman was written to be Pre-Flashpoint's superior by a significant margin but as of now that's not the case with New-52.

#50 Posted by Klaus (587 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 52 takes this IMO.

Nu52 Superman seems very close to his pre-52 self, and would be tough to beat. Then you have Wonder Woman who has been playing on equal terms with Clark as of late, as we saw when she beat Supergirl, fought Zod and Faora 2v1 and had the advantage, and has her atom splitting sword as her standard gear now, and her skills have been for the most part impressive. Alone, either of the team will fall. Togther they have the edge.