Superman vs Wonder-Woman

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#151  Edited By Valtot
@comicdude23:
youv only been asking for her combat feats for a few pages but im sure someoen will give you a few eventually
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@Valtot said:
"@comicdude23: youv only been asking for her combat feats for a few pages but im sure someoen will give you a few eventually "

Lol.
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I'm at work, so I'm limited to internet - kinda tough to find specific feats since her entire character ethos and personality revolves around her being a warrior, born and bred, that usually chooses non-violent methods, but I'll try to post some until other WW fans contribute better and more rare scans. And also, as noted before, most of their matchups involved mind-control, power boosts or inhibitions, so it's hard to find them going at each other full force.
 
Superman getting surprised by Wonder Woman in a surprise attack (looks '80s era), so just because he is potentially faster doesn't mean he can't be surprised and overwhelmed by combat techniques:
    
 
Wonder Woman holds her own against Superman (after Darkseid manipulated them into thinking they were fighting duplicates - they were staging a fight, though, so while making it look believable, were not trying to seriously hurt each other): 
 (Wonder Woman takes a punch and gets up again, without looking worse for wear)  
(Wonder Woman dodging Superman, and counter-attacking)     
 
Wonder Woman slices Superman's jugular vein with her tiara, so though he is faster, he can't match her reflexes and dexterity with her standby weapons and she can damage him (from Max Lord fight): 
 
 
That's all I can find atm, and really have to get back to work. Even though Superman is more powerful, it doesn't mean that he automatically trumps her combat prowess. Training in a martial art doesn't equal being raised to be  warrior, and trained to be a master combat tactician and strategist.

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#154  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides: Stop posting selective portions of fights. The first two you showed are not the full battles, and the last scan you posted is out of context. Wonder Woman hit Superman with her tiara because he flew in, unaware that she would attack when he arrived. 
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@PhoenixoftheTides said:

"I'm at work, so I'm limited to internet - kinda tough to find specific feats since her entire character ethos and personality revolves around her being a warrior, born and bred, that usually chooses non-violent methods, but I'll try to post some until other WW fans contribute better and more rare scans. And also, as noted before, most of their matchups involved mind-control, power boosts or inhibitions, so it's hard to find them going at each other full force.
 
Superman getting surprised by Wonder Woman in a surprise attack (looks '80s era), so just because he is potentially faster doesn't mean he can't be surprised and overwhelmed by combat techniques:

     
 
This isn't skill. It's just her throwing him over her shoulders. Many other people have done this before. Even non skilled people with the right amount of Strength can do this.

Wonder Woman holds her own against Superman (after Darkseid manipulated them into thinking they were fighting duplicates - they were staging a fight, though, so while making it look believable, were not trying to seriously hurt each other): 

 (Wonder Woman takes a punch and gets up again, without looking worse for wear) 

 

(Wonder Woman dodging Superman, and counter-attacking)

      
 
 This is just Wonder Woman getting into a slugfest
 

 

Wonder Woman slices Superman's jugular vein with her tiara, so though he is faster, he can't match her reflexes and dexterity with her standby weapons and can damage him (from Max Lord fight): 

"

 
 
Superman was mind controlled here. He wasn't fighting back.
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#156  Edited By Valtot
@PhoenixoftheTides:
that last scan wouldnt count as superman was blood lusted and not thinking straight, (he thought she was doomsday and he wouldnt be prepared to block a tiara if he thought he was wonderwoman)  than in another scan you showed it was him backhanding her not a punch, first scan he didnt even try to stop her he was asking what she was doing but i guess it showed her doing a flip over superman while holding him than throwing him.
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@Silver2467 said:

" @PhoenixoftheTides: Stop posting selective portions of fights. The first two you showed are not the full battles, and the last scan you posted is out of context. Wonder Woman hit Superman with her tiara because he flew in, unaware that she would attack when he arrived.  "

Read message in my post: I'm limited to internet; if you have the full battles, feel free to post - the point is that Superman doesn't automatically swat her away and she doesn't crumble if hit by him. Anyway, you obviously didn't read the description for the second battle since there were other story things going on that I pointed out. Anyway, re: last scan the fact that he flew in and was automatically attacked by her goes to show that Wonder Woman has better combat ability than he does - she won't wait for her opponent to get set to take him out if necessary, which is why she is a warrior while he is more like a civilian with greatly increased capabilities.
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#158  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:
because Wonder Woman is acknowledged to be the best martial artist in the world by Batman, and is stated to be superior in these skills among the Big Three. "
Batman made the same assertion about Lady Shiva. Tell me which statement is correct. I'll wait. 
 
This is why statements need to be supported by showings. Batman said that Superman is the most powerful hero on the planet, but he said the same about Firestorm. He also said that Gorilla Grodd is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. He said that Huntress is better than people think. None of these statements are true, and many of them contradict one another.  Diana is a superior fighter to Superman but not by such a large degree that he would be incapable of holding his own against her purely hand to hand (as he has already done that before). And feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements. So if all you have to base your argument on is a statement by a character who regularly misrepresents the abilities of other characters, then you really have no case.
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#159  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:

" @Silver2467 said:

" @PhoenixoftheTides: Stop posting selective portions of fights. The first two you showed are not the full battles, and the last scan you posted is out of context. Wonder Woman hit Superman with her tiara because he flew in, unaware that she would attack when he arrived.  "
Read message in my post: I'm limited to internet; if you have the full battles, feel free to post - the point is that Superman doesn't automatically swat her away and she doesn't crumble if hit by him. Anyway, you obviously didn't read the description for the second battle since there were other story things going on that I pointed out. Anyway, re: last scan the fact that he flew in and was automatically attacked by her goes to show that Wonder Woman has better combat ability than he does - she won't wait for her opponent to get set to take him out if necessary. "
So, the fact that he approached her position, without understanding that she would attack, implicates that she is a better fighter? Care to explain how that works? 
 
And I never even said that Diana would crumble before him either. So I would appreciate it if you not assume my intentions. 
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Yup. Statements mean nothing. 
 
Wolverine said Elektra is a better fighter than him (Wrong) 
 
Spider-Man said he can kill the Hulk (Wrong) 
 
Superman said Martian Manhunter is the most powerful being on the Planet (MM is powerful. But not the most powerful) 
 
Damian Wayne said he can beat Tim Drake (Wrong) 
 
Need scans and feats

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#161  Edited By Valtot

than scan not just shows she threw something at him when flying in so has nothing to do with combat skill, he also thought she was doomsday if he saw doomsday throwing something at him he most likely thought it was some rock not a magical tiara

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@Silver2467 said:

" @PhoenixoftheTides said:

because Wonder Woman is acknowledged to be the best martial artist in the world by Batman, and is stated to be superior in these skills among the Big Three. "
Batman made the same assertion about Lady Shiva. Tell me which statement is correct. I'll wait.  This is why statements need to be supported by showings. Batman said that Superman is the most powerful hero on the planet, but he said the same about Firestorm. He also said that Gorilla Grodd is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. He said that Huntress is better than people think. None of these statements are true, and many of them contradict one another.  Diana is a superior fighter to Superman but not by such a large degree that he would be incapable of holding his own against her purely hand to hand (as he has already done that before). And feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements. So if all you have to base your argument on is a statement by a character who regularly misrepresents the abilities of other characters, then you really have no case. "
I'm not misrepresenting any of Superman's abilities - I'm going off of the fact that basically, Wonder Woman has more combat feats than Superman because he tends to use his powers, while she uses skill. You need to provide feats where Superman has out-fought Wonder Woman using his skill or martial arts if you are going to argue that with her combination of skills and abilities, she can't beat him in combat. This isn't a contest of weightlifting or power comparison - we are trying to determine who could defeat the other, and many powerful opponents have been beaten by "weaker" heroes.
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#163  Edited By Valtot
@PhoenixoftheTides:
he hasnt fought wonderwoman with his skills and martial arts yet like he hasnt fought anyone really with his levels since most fights happened before he started developing all these abilities- he has never fought wonderwoman properly its always some form of mind control or another where hes not thinking straight
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@Valtot said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides: he hasnt fought wonderwoman with his skills and martial arts yet like he hasnt fought anyone really with his levels since most fights happened before he started developing all these abilities- he has never fought wonderwoman properly its always some form of mind control or another where hes not thinking straight "
Exactly - which I mentioned quite a few pages ago. If we are going off of feats, it's very hard to show any for either character; their power levels aren't consistent.
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#165  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides said:
because Wonder Woman is acknowledged to be the best martial artist in the world by Batman, and is stated to be superior in these skills among the Big Three. "
Batman made the same assertion about Lady Shiva. Tell me which statement is correct. I'll wait.  This is why statements need to be supported by showings. Batman said that Superman is the most powerful hero on the planet, but he said the same about Firestorm. He also said that Gorilla Grodd is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. He said that Huntress is better than people think. None of these statements are true, and many of them contradict one another.  Diana is a superior fighter to Superman but not by such a large degree that he would be incapable of holding his own against her purely hand to hand (as he has already done that before). And feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements. So if all you have to base your argument on is a statement by a character who regularly misrepresents the abilities of other characters, then you really have no case. "
I'm not misrepresenting any of Superman's abilities - I'm going off of the fact that basically, Wonder Woman has more combat feats than Superman because he tends to use his powers, while she uses skill. You need to provide feats where Superman has out-fought Wonder Woman using his skill or martial arts. "
LOL. If she has so many combat feats, then why have you neglected to post any? And just so you know, judo throwing Superman and throwing a tiara at him while unprepared are not skill feats. You need to do better than that.  
 
And once again, stop assuming my intentions. I actually said that Wonder Woman supersedes Clark in fighting skill. I never said he would outfight her. He can and has held his own against her in a fist fight (more than once, no less). He is skilled and powerful enough that whatever knowledge and experience she may have in unarmed combat is more or less nullified. 
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@PhoenixoftheTides:
But what i am saying is don't underrate Supermans skill. Wonder Woman BARELY passess him in fighting skill.
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#167  Edited By Silver2467

Based on their fighting track record, powers, and abilities, Superman should win the majority.

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@Valtot said:
" than scan not just shows she threw something at him when flying in so has nothing to do with combat skill, he also thought she was doomsday if he saw doomsday throwing something at him he most likely thought it was some rock not a magical tiara "
That does show combat skill. Martial arts or combat prowess depends upon capacity to injure or incapacitate someone, often by using the most simple, direct way to accomplish this. This means that you utilize combat tactics to take advantage of any weakness your opponent displays. In this case, while Superman was not prepared, Wonder Woman neutralized him to deal with the immediate threat.  
 
Combat skill and martial arts mastery doesn't mean trading blow for blow; for that matter, using brute strength to overwhelm someone, shows a failure of strategy (that's from Sun Tzu's "Art of War").
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@Silver2467 said:
"Based on their fighting track record, powers, and abilities, Superman should win the majority. "

This.
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@Silver2467 said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides said:
because Wonder Woman is acknowledged to be the best martial artist in the world by Batman, and is stated to be superior in these skills among the Big Three. "
Batman made the same assertion about Lady Shiva. Tell me which statement is correct. I'll wait.  This is why statements need to be supported by showings. Batman said that Superman is the most powerful hero on the planet, but he said the same about Firestorm. He also said that Gorilla Grodd is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. He said that Huntress is better than people think. None of these statements are true, and many of them contradict one another.  Diana is a superior fighter to Superman but not by such a large degree that he would be incapable of holding his own against her purely hand to hand (as he has already done that before). And feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements. So if all you have to base your argument on is a statement by a character who regularly misrepresents the abilities of other characters, then you really have no case. "
I'm not misrepresenting any of Superman's abilities - I'm going off of the fact that basically, Wonder Woman has more combat feats than Superman because he tends to use his powers, while she uses skill. You need to provide feats where Superman has out-fought Wonder Woman using his skill or martial arts. "
LOL. If she has so many combat feats, then why have you neglected to post any? And just so you know, judo throwing Superman and throwing a tiara at him while unprepared are not skill feats. You need to do better than that.   And once again, stop assuming my intentions. I actually said that Wonder Woman supersedes Clark in fighting skill. I never said he would outfight her. He can and has held his own against her in a fist fight (more than once, no less). He is skilled and powerful enough that whatever knowledge and experience she may have in unarmed combat is more or less nullified.  "
Then go ahead and post the scans to prove your point. I think it's accepted that he is more powerful than she is, but if you are going to say he is equal in fighting skill, you'll need to prove who is more lethal in combat.
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@comicdude23 said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides: But what i am saying is don't underrate Supermans skill. Wonder Woman BARELY passess him in fighting skill. "
Where did I underrate him? My point is that her skills are superior to his, and she backs this up with her training and life experiences. Apparently, you agree, because you say she passes him in fighting skill. The point I and others have made in her favor, is that she is a master of all things combat related - strategy, tactics, weaponry, technique, etc., while he has training in one or two aspects of the same, mainly relying on his power.
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#172  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:

" @Silver2467 said:

" @PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides said:
because Wonder Woman is acknowledged to be the best martial artist in the world by Batman, and is stated to be superior in these skills among the Big Three. "
Batman made the same assertion about Lady Shiva. Tell me which statement is correct. I'll wait.  This is why statements need to be supported by showings. Batman said that Superman is the most powerful hero on the planet, but he said the same about Firestorm. He also said that Gorilla Grodd is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. He said that Huntress is better than people think. None of these statements are true, and many of them contradict one another.  Diana is a superior fighter to Superman but not by such a large degree that he would be incapable of holding his own against her purely hand to hand (as he has already done that before). And feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements. So if all you have to base your argument on is a statement by a character who regularly misrepresents the abilities of other characters, then you really have no case. "
I'm not misrepresenting any of Superman's abilities - I'm going off of the fact that basically, Wonder Woman has more combat feats than Superman because he tends to use his powers, while she uses skill. You need to provide feats where Superman has out-fought Wonder Woman using his skill or martial arts. "
LOL. If she has so many combat feats, then why have you neglected to post any? And just so you know, judo throwing Superman and throwing a tiara at him while unprepared are not skill feats. You need to do better than that.   And once again, stop assuming my intentions. I actually said that Wonder Woman supersedes Clark in fighting skill. I never said he would outfight her. He can and has held his own against her in a fist fight (more than once, no less). He is skilled and powerful enough that whatever knowledge and experience she may have in unarmed combat is more or less nullified.  "
Then go ahead and post the scans to prove your point. I think it's accepted that he is more powerful than she is, but if you are going to say he is equal in fighting skill, you'll need to prove who is more lethal in combat. "
Are you purposefully not reading my posts? I said multiple times now that Wonder Woman is the superior fighter. Superman has advantages in versatility, and he is skilled enough that he can hold out against her in hand to hand (as he has already managed to do several times).
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@PhoenixoftheTides:
Supermans superior power levels, versatility, more consistent showings and high level of fighting skill give him the win.
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@Silver2467 said:

Are you purposefully not reading my posts? I said multiple times now that Wonder Woman is the superior fighter. Superman has advantages in versatility, and he is skilled enough that he can hold out against her in hand to hand (as he has already managed to do several times). "
ComicDude asked for people to post scans showing that Wonder Woman has better fighting techniques and combat feats than he does, and you complained about the ones that were posted. If you have better evidence or the complete battles, go ahead and post the scans - all I have is Google. 
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#175  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:

Are you purposefully not reading my posts? I said multiple times now that Wonder Woman is the superior fighter. Superman has advantages in versatility, and he is skilled enough that he can hold out against her in hand to hand (as he has already managed to do several times). "
ComicDude asked for people to post scans showing that Wonder Woman has better fighting techniques and combat feats than he does, and you complained about the ones that were posted. If you have better evidence or the complete battles, go ahead and post the scans - all I have is Google.  "
What does this have to do with what I said? You are not making any sense, and you seem to be pulling an appeal to ignorance. It is not my obligation to post combat feats for Wonder Woman when you are the one who was making a case about it. 
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@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:

Are you purposefully not reading my posts? I said multiple times now that Wonder Woman is the superior fighter. Superman has advantages in versatility, and he is skilled enough that he can hold out against her in hand to hand (as he has already managed to do several times). "
ComicDude asked for people to post scans showing that Wonder Woman has better fighting techniques and combat feats than he does, and you complained about the ones that were posted. If you have better evidence or the complete battles, go ahead and post the scans - all I have is Google.  "

What i said is those scans aren't even fighting skills. 
 
This is Supermans fighting skills 
 

 
 


 
 
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@Valtot:
I already posted Supermans fighting skills (scans)
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@Silver2467 said:

What does this have to do with what I said? You are not making any sense, and you seem to be pulling an appeal to ignorance. It is not my obligation to post combat feats for Wonder Woman when you are the one who was making a case about it.  "
Incorrect. My position is that Wonder Woman's fighting skills, magical equipment and overall abilities make this an even match. It is generally assumed that she is the better fighter of the two. You appear to agree. So why are you asking me to post scans proving her better fighting abilities? It seems to me that your issue is with the scans posted and not with my argument. If you have better scans, than go ahead and post them.
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#179  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:

What does this have to do with what I said? You are not making any sense, and you seem to be pulling an appeal to ignorance. It is not my obligation to post combat feats for Wonder Woman when you are the one who was making a case about it.  "
Incorrect. My position is that Wonder Woman's fighting skills, magical equipment and overall abilities make this an even match. It is generally assumed that she is the better fighter of the two. You appear to agree. So why are you asking me to post scans proving her better fighting abilities? It seems to me that your issue is with the scans posted and not with my argument. If you have better scans, than go ahead and post them. "
Did I say this was one-sided? And if so, when? I said that Superman would win the majority. I never said this was uneven. 
 
I asked you to post scans for Wonder Woman's combat skill because you were under the impression that she vastly outweighed him combat skill (when you mentioned that her combat feats were significantly greater and that she was the greatest fighter out of the Trinity), when there is nothing to suggest that.  She is a better fighter but not to the extent that you made it out to be. I deconstructed the scans you posted because they prove next to nothing.  
 
And again, this is an appeal to ignorance. It is not on me to post scans to back up your argument. 
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@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467 said:

What does this have to do with what I said? You are not making any sense, and you seem to be pulling an appeal to ignorance. It is not my obligation to post combat feats for Wonder Woman when you are the one who was making a case about it.  "
Incorrect. My position is that Wonder Woman's fighting skills, magical equipment and overall abilities make this an even match. It is generally assumed that she is the better fighter of the two. You appear to agree. So why are you asking me to post scans proving her better fighting abilities? It seems to me that your issue is with the scans posted and not with my argument. If you have better scans, than go ahead and post them. "

I already tossed one out. 
 
I said she has no combat feats. And you said "are you serious?" so i asked for you to show them and you didn't 
 
He can evade her Lasso 
 
Evade her Tiara 
 
She won't even use her lightning. She doesn't consistentley use it. 
 
Disarm her if she has a sword 
 
and Superman has a high magical resistance now 
 
Superman is more powerful than her, more consistent showings, more versatile and has a high level of fighting skills to win
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Superman wins. Too many advantages over her.

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#182  Edited By Valtot
@comicdude23:
1 thing he could do is sit on the moon and blast her with heat vision for fun during the fight --- till she comes near him and they fight in space
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@Valtot said:
"@comicdude23: 1 thing he could do is sit on the moon and blast her with heat vision for fun during the fight --- till she comes near him and they fight in space "

I don't think that would happen...... 
 
I can just see him overwhelming her eventually..... 
 
He can either beat her till she can no longer carry on.....or just KO her 
 
Superman wins 6/10
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@Silver2467: Sounds more like you interpreted my statement to mean something that I never said. Go back to page 5 - I never said anything about her degree of prowess in relation to Batman or Superman. I specifically said she is considered the best martial artist in the world (by Batman) and is stated to be the best warrior in the Big Three. I never said anything about how she "vastly outweighs him in combat" - my original point was that it was a combination of her fighting ability, powers and experience that makes them even.  I think you are confusing my posts with others, because I wasn't even responding to you before you referenced the scans I posted. ComicDude wanted some of her feats, I posted some I found on the net, and then you critiqued the ones I posted. 
 
And on another note, this is not an appeal to ignorance. An appeal to ignorance would be saying that "we can't prove who would win because neither has fought each other to the death or in a real battle, so there is no way to figure this out or extrapolate from other showings, anything that would have bearing on this discussion." If someone doesn't have scans to back up something they said, that does not invalidate their argument, only indicates limitations on their ability to present evidence.
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@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @Silver2467: Sounds more like you interpreted my statement to mean something that I never said. Go back to page 6 - I never said anything about her degree of prowess in relation to Batman or Superman. I specifically said she is considered the best martial artist in the world (by Batman) and is stated to be the best warrior in the Big Three. I never said anything about how she "vastly outweighs him in combat" - my original point was that it was a combination of her fighting ability, powers and experience that makes them even.  I think you are confusing my posts with others, because I wasn't even responding to you before you referenced the scans I posted. ComicDude wanted some of her feats, I posted some I found on the net, and then you critiqued the ones I posted.  And on another note, this is not an appeal to ignorance. An appeal to ignorance would be saying that we can't prove who would win because neither has fought each other to the death or in a real battle, so there is no way to figure this out or extrapolate from other showings, anything that would have bearing on this discussion. If someone doesn't have scans to back up something they said, that does not invalidate their argument, only indicates limitations on their ability to present evidence. "

You still didn't even show a scan of her fighting ability 
 
and how does she win if he has the advantage?
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@comicdude23: We disagree on what indicates fighting ability - I think taking the moment to hurt Superman and then neutralize the major threat indicates superior fighting ability and tactics, while your scan only showed Superman using a few combat techniques, but mostly his powers - I haven't seen anything that indicates Superman is the better combatant of the two, and can't really compare another villain to Wonder Woman. Both are smart, and both have good powersets, so it really isn't a case IMHO of one having a better powerset at the outset. A part of superior fighting ability means being able to make your disadvantages, your advantages, and best being able to apply your strengths to shore up any weakness - I do think WW has the edge here, but I think who wins depends on what version of each character is fighting. 
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Could go either way.
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@PhoenixoftheTides said:
" @comicdude23: We disagree on what indicates fighting ability - I think taking the moment to hurt Superman and then neutralize the threat indicates superior fighting ability and tactics, while your scan only showed Superman using a few combat techniques, but mostly his powers - I haven't seen anything that indicates Superman is the better combatant of the two, and can't really compare another villain to Wonder Woman. I think who wins depends on what version of each character is fighting.  "

Obviously this is Mainstream Superman vs NON retcon Wonder Woman.
 
I never said he is better than Wonder Woman. I said he has enough skill to hold his own. 
 
And that i have showed a scan with Superman actually using his fighting ability.
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#189  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said:

" @Silver2467: Sounds more like you interpreted my statement to mean something that I never said. Go back to page 6 - I never said anything about her degree of prowess in relation to Batman or Superman. I specifically said she is considered the best martial artist in the world (by Batman) and is stated to be the best warrior in the Big Three. I never said anything about how she "vastly outweighs him in combat" - my original point was that it was a combination of her fighting ability, powers and experience that makes them even.  I think you are confusing my posts with others, because I wasn't even responding to you before you referenced the scans I posted. ComicDude wanted some of her feats, I posted some I found on the net, and then you critiqued the ones I posted.  

If Batman says that she is the best martial artist on the planet, then she is more skilled than him. The only other thing I can tell is for you to clarify your meaning. When people discuss fighting skill, they are not referring to powers. They are referring to a character's knowledge of tactical analysis and physical attacks to incapacitate or kill their enemy. You also never said they were even; you said Diana was superior to Clark in combat skill. 
 

And on another note, this is not an appeal to ignorance. An appeal to ignorance would be saying that we can't prove who would win because neither has fought each other to the death or in a real battle, so there is no way to figure this out or extrapolate from other showings, anything that would have bearing on this discussion. If someone doesn't have scans to back up something they said, that does not invalidate their argument, only indicates limitations on their ability to present evidence. "

It is an appeal to ignorance because you placed it on me to post scans of evidence for her fighting skill over his when it was never my case or position to do so in the first place. 
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@Silver2467 said:

" @PhoenixoftheTides said:

" @Silver2467: Sounds more like you interpreted my statement to mean something that I never said. Go back to page 6 - I never said anything about her degree of prowess in relation to Batman or Superman. I specifically said she is considered the best martial artist in the world (by Batman) and is stated to be the best warrior in the Big Three. I never said anything about how she "vastly outweighs him in combat" - my original point was that it was a combination of her fighting ability, powers and experience that makes them even.  I think you are confusing my posts with others, because I wasn't even responding to you before you referenced the scans I posted. ComicDude wanted some of her feats, I posted some I found on the net, and then you critiqued the ones I posted.  

If Batman says that she is the most best martial artist on the planet, then she is more skilled than him. The only other thing I can tell is for you to clarify your meaning. When people discuss fighting skill, they are not referring to powers. They are referring to a character's knowledge of tactical analysis and physical attacks to incapacitate or kill their enemy. You also never said they were even; you said Diana was superior to Clark in combat skill. 
 

And on another note, this is not an appeal to ignorance. An appeal to ignorance would be saying that we can't prove who would win because neither has fought each other to the death or in a real battle, so there is no way to figure this out or extrapolate from other showings, anything that would have bearing on this discussion. If someone doesn't have scans to back up something they said, that does not invalidate their argument, only indicates limitations on their ability to present evidence. "

It is an appeal to ignorance because you placed it on me to post scans of evidence for her fighting skill over his when it was never my case or position to do so in the first place. "
I  clarified my meaning quite a few times - if you want to ignore it or misinterpret what I say, that's on you. My language has always been consistent - I said that Superman was more powerful, but Wonder Woman had a good mix of skills to match him and make this more even. My post on Page 5 specifically states "   Wonder Woman, has the skills, warrior spirit and competence in her favor, while Superman has the raw strength and power...If Wonder Woman had the right weapons and access to tools such as kryptonite and magical weaponry or accessories, the scale tips even more in her favor. I really think this would normally be a 5/5 tie - the tie-breaker would be if WW had access to her special weaponry, a bit of prep time and was at her strongest possible power level." So I'm really of the opinion that you are confusing my posts with another persons', because all of the things you just mentioned were discussed in my initial post.
 
Once again, the scans were posted in response to Comic Dudes' request - I was not refuting your case or position in the first place. And just so you know, that's not what an appeal to ignorance is - Wikipedia has a good description of it right here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance. Basically - that's not what's happening here. You didn't like the scans I provided because you didn't think it proved my point.
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@PhoenixoftheTides said:
"@Silver2467 said:

" @PhoenixoftheTides said:

" @Silver2467: Sounds more like you interpreted my statement to mean something that I never said. Go back to page 6 - I never said anything about her degree of prowess in relation to Batman or Superman. I specifically said she is considered the best martial artist in the world (by Batman) and is stated to be the best warrior in the Big Three. I never said anything about how she "vastly outweighs him in combat" - my original point was that it was a combination of her fighting ability, powers and experience that makes them even.  I think you are confusing my posts with others, because I wasn't even responding to you before you referenced the scans I posted. ComicDude wanted some of her feats, I posted some I found on the net, and then you critiqued the ones I posted.  
If Batman says that she is the most best martial artist on the planet, then she is more skilled than him. The only other thing I can tell is for you to clarify your meaning. When people discuss fighting skill, they are not referring to powers. They are referring to a character's knowledge of tactical analysis and physical attacks to incapacitate or kill their enemy. You also never said they were even; you said Diana was superior to Clark in combat skill. 
 
And on another note, this is not an appeal to ignorance. An appeal to ignorance would be saying that we can't prove who would win because neither has fought each other to the death or in a real battle, so there is no way to figure this out or extrapolate from other showings, anything that would have bearing on this discussion. If someone doesn't have scans to back up something they said, that does not invalidate their argument, only indicates limitations on their ability to present evidence. "
It is an appeal to ignorance because you placed it on me to post scans of evidence for her fighting skill over his when it was never my case or position to do so in the first place. "
I  clarified my meaning quite a few times - if you want to ignore it or misinterpret what I say, that's on you. My language has always been consistent - I said that Superman was more powerful, but Wonder Woman had a good mix of skills to match him and make this more even. My post on Page 5 specifically states "   Wonder Woman, has the skills, warrior spirit and competence in her favor, while Superman has the raw strength and power...If Wonder Woman had the right weapons and access to tools such as kryptonite and magical weaponry or accessories, the scale tips even more in her favor. I really think this would normally be a 5/5 tie - the tie-breaker would be if WW had access to her special weaponry, a bit of prep time and was at her strongest possible power level." So I'm really of the opinion that you are confusing my posts with another persons', because all of the things you just mentioned were discussed in my initial post.
 
Once again, the scans were posted in response to Comic Dudes' request - I was not refuting your case or position in the first place. And just so you know, that's not what an appeal to ignorance is - Wikipedia has a good description of it right here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance. Basically - that's not what's happening here. You didn't like the scans I provided because you didn't think it proved any point. Done. "

The scans were nothing.....it wasn't even her fighting skills
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#192  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said: 
I  clarified my meaning quite a few times - if you want to ignore it or misinterpret what I say, that's on you.  
You say this after you repeatedly failed to comprehend my posts and assumed my intentions? LOL. 
 
My language has always been consistent - I said that Superman was more powerful, but Wonder Woman had a good mix of skills to match him and make this more even. My post on Page 5 specifically states "   Wonder Woman, has the skills, warrior spirit and competence in her favor, while Superman has the raw strength and power...If Wonder Woman had the right weapons and access to tools such as kryptonite and magical weaponry or accessories, the scale tips even more in her favor. I really think this would normally be a 5/5 tie - the tie-breaker would be if WW had access to her special weaponry, a bit of prep time and was at her strongest possible power level." 
You said that their combat skill was uneven, not the outcome, which is exactly what I have been responding to.
 
So I'm really of the opinion that you are confusing my posts with another persons', because all of the things you just mentioned were discussed in my initial post.  
If you want to have that opinion, you can, but this is not the case. 
 
Once again, the scans were posted in response to Comic Dudes' request - I was not refuting your case or position in the first place. And just so you know, that's not what an appeal to ignorance is - Wikipedia has a good description of it right here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance. Basically - that's not what's happening here. You didn't like the scans I provided because you didn't think it proved any point. Done. "
I know what an appeal to ignorance is, thank you. Let me lay this out for you. You posted scans in attempt to prove that Diana has a greater skill advantage over Clark. I explained these away. In return, because your scans were invalidated, you told me to post something more solid. So you had nothing to base your claim on but at the same time were waiting for scans posted for Clark to refute it (which comicdude later posted). At the same time, you expected me to present "better" evidence for your case instead (the general point of an argument from ignorance is to wrongly place it on the opposition to post proof against your claim when you failed to prove your point). So, yes, I saw this as an appeal to ignorance.
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@Silver2467 said:


My response was to Comic Dude, not you. Also, never said anything about the outcome anywhere in my post, so you're doing exactly what you accuse me of and putting words into my mouth. I actually said they were relatively equal. Not sure where you get the statement about the outcome from because in general terms, if someone says two characters are about equal, that generally means the outcome is not clearcut or easy to call. It could be 6/4 or 4/6 for either side, but I don't think it is a 9/10 curbstomp for either. Don't know your intentions - I'm not a mind-reader and I'm just going off of your comments, all of which seem to think that I'm talking to you. 
 
Also, you're wrong - that is not not an appeal to ignorance. What I said was that I did not have better scans, and those were the only ones I found online. Since you critiqued them, I invited you to post any betters ones. The issue here is whether there is an absence of evidence or some issue issue preventing the evidence from being posted because the point of content is whether any evidence exists (ie. better scans showing this) or whether any of us have found or access to any. Key point here is that I'm not trying to prove anything to you, so am under no obligation to provide anything for your satisfaction - I was responding to Comic Dude's request with some scans I found online of various WW combat feats, and admitted up front that these would be limited. He didn't like them or think they were proof, which is fair enough. You interjected. Done.
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#194  Edited By Static Shock
@Silver2467 said:
"I thought you said Trinity was canon. "
Trinity, written by Kurt Busiek, is canon. I'm talking about a different Trinity. The Elseworlds mini-series.
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#195  Edited By Static Shock
@PhoenixoftheTides said:
"
Superman getting surprised by Wonder Woman in a surprise attack (looks '80s era), so just because he is potentially faster doesn't mean he can't be surprised and overwhelmed by combat techniques:
    
Pre-Crisis fight. Just saying.
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#196  Edited By cascadeking09

Again?

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#197  Edited By Silver2467
@Static Shock said:
" @Silver2467 said:
"I thought you said Trinity was canon. "
Trinity, written by Kurt Busiek, is canon. I'm talking about a different Trinity. The Elseworlds mini-series. "
Oh, alright.
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#198  Edited By Silver2467
@PhoenixoftheTides said: 
My response was to Comic Dude, not you. Also, never said anything about the outcome anywhere in my post, so you're doing exactly what you accuse me of and putting words into my mouth. I actually said they were relatively equal. Not sure where you get the statement about the outcome from because in general terms, if someone says two characters are about equal, that generally means the outcome is not clearcut or easy to call. 
@PhoenixoftheTides said: 
I  clarified my meaning quite a few times - if you want to ignore it or misinterpret what I say, that's on you. My language has always been consistent - I said that Superman was more powerful, but Wonder Woman had a good mix of skills to match him and make this more even. My post on Page 5 specifically states "   Wonder Woman, has the skills, warrior spirit and competence in her favor, while Superman has the raw strength and power...If Wonder Woman had the right weapons and access to tools such as kryptonite and magical weaponry or accessories, the scale tips even more in her favor. I really think this would normally be a 5/5 tie - the tie-breaker would be if WW had access to her special weaponry, a bit of prep time and was at her strongest possible power level." So I'm really of the opinion that you are confusing my posts with another persons', because all of the things you just mentioned were discussed in my initial post.  
How does this not pertain to the outcome of the fight? And, no, I am not putting words in your mouth.
 
It could be 6/4 or 4/6 for either side, but I don't think it is a 9/10 curbstomp for either. D  
When did I say that? 
 
Don't know your intentions - I'm not a mind-reader and I'm just going off of your comments, all of which seem to think that I'm talking to you.   
When you make comments on something I never said (like that Diana would crumble before Clark), this is not a good excuse. 
 
Also, you're wrong - that is not not an appeal to ignorance. What I said was that I did not have better scans, and those were the only ones I found online. Since you critiqued them, I invited you to post any betters ones. The issue here is whether there is an absence of evidence or some issue issue preventing the evidence from being posted because the point of content is whether any evidence exists (ie. better scans showing this) or whether any of us have found or access to any. Key point here is that I'm not trying to prove anything to you, so am under no obligation to provide anything for your satisfaction - I was responding to Comic Dude's request with some scans I found online of various WW combat feats, and admitted up front that these would be limited. He didn't like them or think they were proof, which is fair enough. You interjected. Done. "
Fair enough.
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@PhoenixoftheTides:
I need real scans of WW fighting skill.
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#200  Edited By Static Shock
@comicdude23 said:
" @PhoenixoftheTides: I need real scans of WW fighting skill. "
Wonder Woman's fighting skill is prevalent in many of her fights. She's Amazonian, and probably the best Amazonian warrior, besides Artemis. You can search KMC for that. It's already been established that Wonder Woman is a better fighter than Superman. It's only difficult for her to fight him because of his decent fighting ability + all of his powers combined.