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#1 Edited by cfrehse (1004 posts) - - Show Bio

Who wins and why?

New 52 supes vs PF Namor

Morals on fight takes place on the moon. NO BFR

WIn by KO or Death

#2 Posted by matchesmalone21 (8969 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor

#3 Edited by SHAZAM117 (3299 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman puts up a valiant effort but goes down eventually. He doesn't have the Hex magic that was needed to actually disrupt the Phoenix Force

#4 Edited by DrunkVader (794 posts) - - Show Bio

phoenix force wins cus its the f**king phoenix force

nuff said

#5 Edited by Wolverine08 (43672 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman puts up a valiant effort but goes down eventually. He doesn't have the Hex magic that was needed to actually disrupt the Phoenix Force

#6 Posted by BigCimmerian (8580 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor should win.

#7 Posted by Ratatat (697 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor

#8 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (6100 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor.

#9 Posted by homicidalmaniac (7904 posts) - - Show Bio

New 52 Superman Vs PF Namor=PF Namor 8/10 or 9/10.

#10 Posted by theONEtaichou (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

So what has PF Namor done to give him the win? Did the PF increase his strength, speed, tp? Matter/Reality manipulator? Exactly what??

good day

#11 Edited by 14NC3 (1766 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou:

This is the only scan I have, but he invaded wakanda and destroyed all of the avegers with ease. He was eventually defeated when the scarlet witch came because she has hex magic which is the phoenix fives weakness. I agree that superman will give namor a little difficulty but superman has no way to defeat him. Feats for namor include destroying the avengers, with the phoenix force he dropped a massive tidal wave onto wakanda destroying most of it, ripping of Rulks arm with his finger and durability to the point where he couldn't even be slowed down by the avengers best hits. He's also got both telepathy, tk, cosmic power manipulation through energy blasts and fire from the phoenix. From the fight with the avengers we can see that his strength was def increased

#12 Posted by theONEtaichou (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

@14nc3 said:

@theonetaichou:

This is the only scan I have, but he invaded wakanda and destroyed all of the avegers with ease. He was eventually defeated when the scarlet witch came because she has hex magic which is the phoenix fives weakness. I agree that superman will give namor a little difficulty but superman has no way to defeat him. Feats for namor include destroying the avengers, with the phoenix force he dropped a massive tidal wave onto wakanda destroying most of it, ripping of Rulks arm with his finger and durability to the point where he couldn't even be slowed down by the avengers best hits. He's also got both telepathy, tk, cosmic power manipulation through energy blasts and fire from the phoenix. From the fight with the avengers we can see that his strength was def increased

sorry mate, I see nothing there that Superman cannot do. He would do it differently with a combo of speed+strength+HV...

You say his strength was increased, to which levels? Equal to Mr 'I bench press Earth equivalent weight'?

But anyway I give it to Namor more often than not...

good day

#13 Posted by dondave (38505 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor

#15 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (6764 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor has this.

#16 Edited by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou:

Superman cannot win this he has nothing that could put namor down, Thor was trying to no effect and he was one shorting top tiers like nothing

#17 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou: they had to use Scarlet Witch as a serious plot device and even facing just 1 phoenix force host out of the p5, she was rendered useless. Superman can't beat this version of Namor, he does not have chaos magic or the life force to counter the phoenix force.

#18 Edited by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, I forgot that PF Namor took a donkey punch hit from Thor and shrugged it off.

#19 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou: they had to use Scarlet Witch as a serious plot device and even facing just 1 phoenix force host out of the p5, she was rendered useless. Superman can't beat this version of Namor, he does not have chaos magic or the life force to counter the phoenix force.

Well to be fair to Wanda, she casually BFRed Namora the first time around with a simple "go away", which seem to have really hurt him given we see him all sweat when he gets teleported forcefully.

#20 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4178 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1 said:

@theonetaichou: they had to use Scarlet Witch as a serious plot device and even facing just 1 phoenix force host out of the p5, she was rendered useless. Superman can't beat this version of Namor, he does not have chaos magic or the life force to counter the phoenix force.

Well to be fair to Wanda, she casually BFRed Namora the first time around with a simple "go away", which seem to have really hurt him given we see him all sweat when he gets teleported forcefully.

Being covered in sweat is not a sign of being hurt, it's a sign of strain, which would suggest he was sweating because he was trying to fight being teleported away, which makes sense with him yelling nnnnnooooo.

#21 Edited by Lvenger (20732 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I'm not convinced New 52 Superman can take this. I'm unsure Pre Flashpoint Superman could win. Namor swatted aside Rulk, Thor and the other Avengers with ease. Plus, when the P5 were fighting Gladiator, who's one of the closest to Superman power and feat wise, he got humiliated by the P5.

#22 Posted by NoBody134 (298 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor

#23 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1 said:

@theonetaichou: they had to use Scarlet Witch as a serious plot device and even facing just 1 phoenix force host out of the p5, she was rendered useless. Superman can't beat this version of Namor, he does not have chaos magic or the life force to counter the phoenix force.

Well to be fair to Wanda, she casually BFRed Namora the first time around with a simple "go away", which seem to have really hurt him given we see him all sweat when he gets teleported forcefully.

Through that series AvX Wanda struggled with the phoenix force 5, even when it was split into five and her encounters with Emma or Magik i can't remember which one, one of the blondes. She had a problem because of the way her chaos magic/and the life force powers affected the power of the phoenix which accelerated it, and she couldn't keep up with it. This became more apparent when Namor lost the phoenix force and the others gained his potion of the power. She became no match for them at all.

And when i say she was rendered useless, that was in concert to the scans above that were provided, she knocked herself out ,and had to be carried away.

#24 Edited by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor. This is a mismatch and should be closed shortly. In before the lock.

#25 Posted by Diamondlifer1 (128 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor ftw

#26 Posted by XxGin (1374 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor stomps on so many levels

#27 Edited by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

Not Namor, Phoenix Force Wins. However. . .

But still, PF wins.

#28 Posted by God_Spawn (38105 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor. Superman benching a planet for five days or shaking a planet with a punch is a useless feat when he doesn't have the necessary means to actually KO one of them.

Moderator
#29 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio


Being covered in sweat is not a sign of being hurt, it's a sign of strain, which would suggest he was sweating because he was trying to fight being teleported away, which makes sense with him yelling nnnnnooooo.

That "could" be. Point was that does show Wanda superior to him pretty clearly.


Through that series AvX Wanda struggled with the phoenix force 5, even when it was split into five and her encounters with Emma or Magik i can't remember which one, one of the blondes. She had a problem because of the way her chaos magic/and the life force powers affected the power of the phoenix which accelerated it, and she couldn't keep up with it. This became more apparent when Namor lost the phoenix force and the others gained his potion of the power. She became no match for them at all.

And when i say she was rendered useless, that was in concert to the scans above that were provided, she knocked herself out ,and had to be carried away.

She wasnt really struggling against Phoenix 5, the whole team were actually scared against her. At one point Avengers where pretending to be Wanda just to get P5 to back away.

Cyclops burnt himself simply by touching her.

It was only after they gained extra Phoenix force from Namor being fallen they had the superiority to Wanda.

Even then the series ended with Wanda and Hope with Wanda Power actually defeating Dark Phoenix Cyclops.

#30 Posted by RetconCrisis (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre52 would be more fair. Namor wins 8/10.

#31 Posted by cooljammy18 (982 posts) - - Show Bio

He would fair better than a lot of the people that fought Namor at the time, but the cosmic powers, telepathy and extreme multiplier to his natural abilities from the Phoenix Force would give The Submariner the win over Supes.

#32 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4178 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

That "could" be. Point was that does show Wanda superior to him pretty clearly.

All it really shows is that she is can teleport and he can't, there is no doubt that her powers can affect him, but as we see later at best she can only stalemate him and be rendered unconscious as a result and him still being conscious, so as it stands in a battle between them he stills wins via KO. That does not show superiority at all. After the Phoenix left him, it would have been simple enough for him to just walk over and kill her after, except her team was there, Cap. caught her and Thing kicked him when he was down.

Even then the series ended with Wanda and Hope with Wanda Power actually defeating Dark Phoenix Cyclops.

IIRC Jean telling him to let go and him actually doing it, is what caused the Phoenix to leave him, not them. They just took advantage of it as they were the ones battling him. They were barley affecting him, he was having internal dialog and inner turmoil was getting the best of him, then Jean came. And nothing Wanda did actually stopped the Phoenix Force 1/5 or not, it still remained active and just went to other hosts. The series ended with Wanda helping Hope let go of the Phoenix and it doing what it came to Earth to do, thus allowing Wanda her redemption.

#33 Posted by Killemall (18635 posts) - - Show Bio

All it really shows is that she is can teleport and he can't, there is no doubt that her powers can affect him, but as we see later at best she can only stalemate him and be rendered unconscious as a result and him still being conscious, so as it stands in a battle between them he stills wins via KO. That does not show superiority at all.

More like she can forcefully teleport him against his will, with him being helpless, that also apparently breaking him down as seen on the first panel.

And Namor was down on the ground, helpless, and had lost the Phoenix force. I think its fair to say thats at best stalemate, when other showing however show Wanda as more powerful.

IIRC Jean telling him to let go and him actually doing it, is what caused the Phoenix to leave him, not them. They just took advantage of it as they were the ones battling him. They weren't even slowing him down, he was having internal dialog and inner turmoil was getting the best of him, then Jean came. And nothing Wanda did actually stopped the Phoenix Force 1/5 or not, it still remained active and just went to other hosts. The series ended with Wanda helping Hope let go of the Phoenix and it doing what it came to Earth to do, thus allowing Wanda her redemption.

Jean asked him to let go, he was already struggling with Hope and Wanda before the scene, Jean scene was pretty much the last part where Cyclops then actually lost.

Phoenix 5 were outright scared of Wanda, they were teleporting away everytime they actually saw Wanda.

Its not about Wanda being more powerful than 1/5 of the Phoenix its more about Wanda , based on Chaos Magic, actually having what it takes to fight Phoenix 5.

#34 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4178 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: More like she can forcefully teleport him against his will, with him being helpless, that also apparently breaking him down as seen on the first panel.

That was kinda the point of my response, he can't teleport so anybody that can teleport others would have been just as effective in BFRing. IIRC from HOM that breaking down thing is more of kill move for her and not a teleportation so if you want to use that artistic rendering to show her being superior we can easily argue that teleportation was a result of her failing to erase him :)

And Namor was down on the ground, helpless, and had lost the Phoenix force. I think its fair to say thats at best stalemate, when other showing however show Wanda as more powerful.

The point is he was still conscious and she was not, and the Thing was on him the second he hits. There is no room to call him helpless from his fight with her as he was immediately attacked, she was the one that was helpless. Had her team not been there, there is nothing to suggest he couldn't have just walked over and killed her, since he was still conscious.

Jean asked him to let go, he was already struggling with Hope and Wanda before the scene, Jean scene was pretty much the last part where Cyclops then actually lost.

It's obvious he is struggling with himself, and not them. You said at the end it was them that defeated him as dark Phoenix, you then go on to say the Jean scene was the last part. Jean had already convinced him to let the Phoenix go, which is why when they struck their last blow it left him and went to Hope. They were not aware of his conversation with Jean it makes sense they would think it was them that caused the Phoenix to leave, when we as readers know that it left because he let it go and they essentially only defeated a Cyclops that had surrendered his power and was no longer fighting.

Phoenix 5 were outright scared of Wanda, they were teleporting away everytime they actually saw Wanda

That was based on her causing Scott pain, as we saw later it was just semi irrational fear, since one of them could got toe to toe with her and she would have been KOed for her trouble.

Its not about Wanda being more powerful than 1/5 of the Phoenix its more about Wanda , based on Chaos Magic, actually having what it takes to fight Phoenix 5.

How is it not about her being more powerful when you say she is superior? Based on Chaos magic she only has what it takes to fight one of them at a time before she is KOed.

#35 Posted by HellionVulcan (3867 posts) - - Show Bio

Namor all the way 10/10 .