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#51 Edited by spiderbuck (2406 posts) - - Show Bio

@DrEgonSpengler said:

Yet Superman can strike Hercules a hundred times, and also apply pressure points before Herc throws a punch.

Two things:

1) Superman won't be punching anyone a hundred times without super speed. Read the OP.

2 ) Pressure point fighting was addressed.

"....also the pressure points stuff won't work on Hercules, especially with the Lion Skin, but even without, he's too skilled of a fighter for that to work. Just like the best Wing Chun or Kung Fu guy would never step foot in a case and fight it out, because they would leave on a stretcher. Or rather they have left on stretchers, and that's why people who fight train wrestling, submissions and kickboxing (pankration essentially)."

Superman would stand more of a chance using his formidable boxing skills than pressure point hooey on a trained fighter. But when Herc mixes it up, it's curtains for Kent, as it would be for any pure boxer in a fight against a mixed martial artist.

#52 Edited by God_Spawn (35978 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck:

Must not be a big fight fan if you think there's not much skilled involved in "just punching things." Pugilism is an entire art form based on "just punching things." Muhammed Ali "just punches things" like Picasso "just paints stuff." And frankly, that is exactly the point. Hercules' existence is based on fighting, the art of fighting, and "the gift" of battle. It's his world, and the scenario here is stacked too heavily in his favor

I'm a fight fan but that's irrelevant so let's not focus on me shall we? Yes in comics it does make a difference. Amadeus Cho just said Herc punches things, he didn't saying anything about boxing or any technique involved in Herc's style so being grossly over-general about a statement is incompetent logic on your part. By your logic anybody who has thrown a punch and has been in multiple fights must be a great fighter right? Hulk and Juggernaut also "just punch things" but so do Wildcat Ted Grant and the Thing but you can't compare their skill level cause the latter have finesse and technique to their "just punching things" style of fighting and don't just flat out brawl. Herc is a decent fighter when he wants to be but he does brawl most of the time and Superman does brawl too sometimes but he has the added benefit of being trained in boxing "so just punching things" himself just like Herc does and martial arts training from Batman which he uses effectively. And in comics MA ability actually means something as far as skill levels go so any real world logic you might try passing on as evidence is faulty here in a non real setting.

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#53 Posted by sinestro_GL (3003 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone else waiting for to comment? ^^

#54 Posted by Lady_Liberty (7502 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules has a lot of unclear strength feats, and doesn't have a consistent history of skill feats. I don't see how he is more skilled then Superman. I also don't think he's even in the same strength class, much less an equal.

He also lacks any kind of secondary powers.

He has no defense against heat vision to the eyes, which would blind him at least momentary.

He has no defense against cold breath to the head. That would make it impossible to breath, or see until he removed it.

Both of these are things Superman can use, over and over, to control the tempo of the fight, and open Hercules up to powerful blows that he is unlikely to defend against.

Superman has every advantage, Hercules has none.

Therefore Superman will win.

#55 Posted by Saren (24284 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane: I am not addressing that wall of disingenuous text in it's entirety. You want me to "prove" about 17 different points, all the while not providing any proof for your statements.

Don't kid yourself, you can't address it at any rate.

1) Saying Hercules is less durable than Thor. Proove it. Everyone in here knows Herc > Thor without Mjolnir. That's just a fact. Thor admitted it, and it's time you do too.

That is because Thor does not have 99% of his powers without Mjolnir. This is idiotic, Herc does not have a single durability feat on Thor's level.

You say WW is more durable than Hercules. Prove it. Imo, that's laughable considering Superman has crushed WW's hand like a child's (there is NO way he would be able to do something like that to Hercules.

That's a good argument, really, calling everything "laughable" to cover up the fact that you can't prove anything. When did Superman crush Diana's hand like a child? And why on earth are we pretending that's anything other than a low showing? Wonder Woman has punched nukes and walked away without a scratch. She took a blast from an Imperiex drone that turned Captain Marvel inside out. You say Hercules is more durable than that? Prove it! You're the one arguing for Herc! Not me! You're the one who's supposed to counter that with things he's actually done! I'm not going to do your part for you! Are you going to do that or just go off on tangents about how everything's laughable? You can't possibly think refuting every "Prove this to be true" statement with "prove this is not true" is somehow a reasonable thing to do.

Just. No. .... meanwhile DC Hercules is ones hotting Superman into buildings.

Here's a tip: stop trying to quote instances from issues you've obviously never even read. It's an easy way to not embarrass yourself. DC Hercules never one-shotted Superman, he knocked him into a building, then he got smacked away by the Kingdom Come Superman, and when he landed the regular Superman picked him up and sent him flying through a building. He didn't get up. You've only seen some scans on CV, haven't you?

You say Herc "tried to wrestle with Hulk and got beaten to a pulp". Now... is that reaaaally what happened?? Or was it more like this:
Hulk vs Hercules 1 shot. Herc comes out looking pretty good.
Herc ducks a haymaker from Hulk and gets a single leg take down that sends them careening off the mountianside. (Hercules mastery of Pankraton is referenced* thats 2 skill references so far).

Yes, that is reaaaaaaaally what happened. It's in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed. Hulk thrashed Herc so badly that even he felt bad about it and told Herc to stay down for his own good. Herc's mastery of wrestling and Autolycus training is referenced in this fight. And it did him absolutely no good. Try again.

Saying Superman's heavt vision > Kly'bn's. You downplay Kly'bn's heat vision by using the fact that Ajaks' heat vision was even with his... but convenientlyignoring that in the very next panel Kly'bn's hv overpowers that of Ajaks.... and this happens:

Could you please point out what part of what I said previously is somehow hard to understand? I said Ajak's heat vision held off Kly'bn's for a while --which is true, post the pages prior to your image, if you will--, nowhere did I say it was even. You're the one who keeps insisting Herc can resist Superman's heat vision because he resisted Kly'bn's, thus equating the two attacks. If you can make a statement like that, there must be some proof that Kly'bn's heat vision is the equal or superior of Superman's. So where is it? I'm still waiting.

5) Marvel says the Nemean Lion skin is indestructible. You say it's not. Prove them wrong.

Marvel also says Sentry, Odin, Galactus, Death and Shuma-Gorath are all omnipotent even though they can't all be omnipotent at the same time and they've lost battles before. It's just a term that gets tossed around, for god's sake. It's not meant to be literal. How many countless times has adamantium been stated to be indestructible? And Captain America's shield as well? Both have been wrecked before.

Still waiting for this proof that you seem so reluctant to provide. Superman still wins.

Moderator
#56 Posted by termiteone4ever (6682 posts) - - Show Bio

Supes Got this

#57 Posted by PowerHerc (78161 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1

Hercules has a real chance of beating Superman in the morals round due to the limitations placed on the Man of Steel, Superman's stricter moral code and Herc's superior fighting skill and higher durability with the Nemean Lion skin. Still, heat vision and cold breath combined with Superman's strength advantage could still give Superman the win. This one could go either way. They split with Hercules and Superman each winning 5 of 10.

Round 2

The same factors applied in the first round apply here, too, except this time Superman isn't limited by his moral code. Superman wins 7 of 10.

#58 Posted by Jeronimo (670 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane: I am not addressing that wall of disingenuous text in it's entirety. You want me to "prove" about 17 different points, all the while not providing any proof for your statements.

For example:

1) Saying Hercules is less durable than Thor. Proove it. Everyone in here knows Herc > Thor without Mjolnir. That's just a fact. Thor admitted it, and it's time you do too.

2) You say WW is more durable than Hercules. Prove it. Imo, that's laughable considering Superman has crushed WW's hand like a child's (there is NO way he would be able to do something like that to Hercules. Just. No. .... meanwhile DC Hercules is ones hotting Superman into buildings. I know what you're going to say next... DC Herc > Marvel Herc. If so, prove it.

3) You say Herc "tried to wrestle with Hulk and got beaten to a pulp". Now... is that reaaaally what happened?? Or was it more like this:

Hulk vs Hercules 1 shot. Herc comes out looking pretty good.

Herc ducks a haymaker from Hulk and gets a single leg take down that sends them careening off the mountianside. (Hercules mastery of Pankraton is referenced* thats 2 skill references so far).

They land with Herc on top and immediately takes the mount posistion working down some monsterous ground and pound techniques. Landing at least 26 un answered blows (if you go by the sound effects), we get a close up of Hulks face and it looks like he has 1 swollen eye and his nose is busted.

The escape of Cronus and his army of giants imprisoned by Zeus interrupts the peaceful resolution, but in the end it is undeniably a draw when the two warriors end their battle!

4) Saying Superman's heavt vision > Kly'bn's. You downplay Kly'bn's heat vision by using the fact that Ajaks' heat vision was even with his... but conveniently ignoring that in the very next panel Kly'bn's hv overpowers that of Ajaks.... and this happens:

5) Marvel says the Nemean Lion skin is indestructible. You say it's not. Prove them wrong.

....I say Herc is so durable he doesn't even need the thing anyway. Case in point:

Takes Kly'bn's best shot....
And walks right through it.

@god_spawn said:

Amadeus Cho has pretty much just said Herc punches things. Not too much skilled involved there and I already debated Superman is a better fighter than Herc too. I'll see if I can scrounge up the thread and bring those points back up.

Must not be a big fight fan if you think there's not much skilled involved in "just punching things." Pugilism is an entire art form based on "just punching things." Muhammed Ali "just punches things" like Picasso "just paints stuff." And frankly, that is exactly the point. Hercules' existence is based on fighting, the art of fighting, and "the gift" of battle. It's his world, and the scenario here is stacked too heavily in his favor.

@Dex_Starr said:

Herc hasn't done anything to suggest he's even as good as a fighter as Superman either.

See asterisk under heading 3 - *Hercules mastery of Pankraton is referenced twice in his fight with Hulk. I know Superman has some pretty good boxing, and has some knowledge or pressure points, but Pankration (MMA) or Wrestling alone have proven to beat boxing 10/10 and 9/10 times respectively in a NHB (no holds barred) fight, and this is just a fact... also the pressure points stuff won't work on Hercules, especially with the Lion Skin, but even without, he's too skilled of a fighter for that to work. Just like the best Wing Chun or Kung Fu guy would never step foot in a case and fight it out, because they would leave on a stretcher. Or rather they have left on stretchers, and that's why people who fight train wrestling, submissions and kickboxing (pankration essentially).

Hercules stomps in these scenarios.

Nice arguements.

#59 Posted by Jeronimo (670 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules FTW

#60 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck:Even if wrestling did beat Boxing, Citizenbane already pointed out that Herc's fighting skills didn't do jack against Hulk, Supes would end up beating him to death.

@Jeronimo: Herc is going to die in this fight.

#61 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

how is this still a open debate?

superman would destroy Hercules

no contest

#62 Posted by spiderbuck (2406 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr said:

@spiderbuck:Even if wrestling did beat Boxing, Citizenbane already pointed out that Herc's fighting skills didn't do jack against Hulk, Supes would end up beating him to death.

@Jeronimo: Herc is going to die in this fight.

Fine. Take what Citizenbane "already pointed out" as true, instead of the FACT that in the fight, Herc got the takedown, landing in full mount, raining down 26 unanswered punches, breaking Hulk's nose and swelling his eye shut and cll that "not doing jack", then I don't know what I can say to you. It's clear you all aren't interested in genuine debate, but enforcing groupthink. @Jeronimo said:

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane: I am not addressing that wall of disingenuous text in it's entirety. You want me to "prove" about 17 different points, all the while not providing any proof for your statements.

For example:

1) Saying Hercules is less durable than Thor. Proove it. Everyone in here knows Herc > Thor without Mjolnir. That's just a fact. Thor admitted it, and it's time you do too.

2) You say WW is more durable than Hercules. Prove it. Imo, that's laughable considering Superman has crushed WW's hand like a child's (there is NO way he would be able to do something like that to Hercules. Just. No. .... meanwhile DC Hercules is ones hotting Superman into buildings. I know what you're going to say next... DC Herc > Marvel Herc. If so, prove it.

3) You say Herc "tried to wrestle with Hulk and got beaten to a pulp". Now... is that reaaaally what happened?? Or was it more like this:

Hulk vs Hercules 1 shot. Herc comes out looking pretty good.

Herc ducks a haymaker from Hulk and gets a single leg take down that sends them careening off the mountianside. (Hercules mastery of Pankraton is referenced* thats 2 skill references so far).

They land with Herc on top and immediately takes the mount posistion working down some monsterous ground and pound techniques. Landing at least 26 un answered blows (if you go by the sound effects), we get a close up of Hulks face and it looks like he has 1 swollen eye and his nose is busted.

The escape of Cronus and his army of giants imprisoned by Zeus interrupts the peaceful resolution, but in the end it is undeniably a draw when the two warriors end their battle!

4) Saying Superman's heavt vision > Kly'bn's. You downplay Kly'bn's heat vision by using the fact that Ajaks' heat vision was even with his... but conveniently ignoring that in the very next panel Kly'bn's hv overpowers that of Ajaks.... and this happens:

5) Marvel says the Nemean Lion skin is indestructible. You say it's not. Prove them wrong.

....I say Herc is so durable he doesn't even need the thing anyway. Case in point:

Takes Kly'bn's best shot....
And walks right through it.

@god_spawn said:

Amadeus Cho has pretty much just said Herc punches things. Not too much skilled involved there and I already debated Superman is a better fighter than Herc too. I'll see if I can scrounge up the thread and bring those points back up.

Must not be a big fight fan if you think there's not much skilled involved in "just punching things." Pugilism is an entire art form based on "just punching things." Muhammed Ali "just punches things" like Picasso "just paints stuff." And frankly, that is exactly the point. Hercules' existence is based on fighting, the art of fighting, and "the gift" of battle. It's his world, and the scenario here is stacked too heavily in his favor.

@Dex_Starr said:

Herc hasn't done anything to suggest he's even as good as a fighter as Superman either.

See asterisk under heading 3 - *Hercules mastery of Pankraton is referenced twice in his fight with Hulk. I know Superman has some pretty good boxing, and has some knowledge or pressure points, but Pankration (MMA) or Wrestling alone have proven to beat boxing 10/10 and 9/10 times respectively in a NHB (no holds barred) fight, and this is just a fact... also the pressure points stuff won't work on Hercules, especially with the Lion Skin, but even without, he's too skilled of a fighter for that to work. Just like the best Wing Chun or Kung Fu guy would never step foot in a case and fight it out, because they would leave on a stretcher. Or rather they have left on stretchers, and that's why people who fight train wrestling, submissions and kickboxing (pankration essentially).

Hercules stomps in these scenarios.

Nice arguements.

Thanks man. Reasonable people can read and entertain logic, but at this point some of "debaters" are just frothing at the mouth banging their responses out on the keyboard and ignoring arguments in favor of red herrings and straw men arguments.

I say "Hercules is a highly skilled fighter who created Pankcration (MMA) fighting style which has been proven over and over to be better than boxing or pressure point fighting techniques in a fight... the response I get is, "but Herc's a brawler! Supes trained with teh Batmanz!" (rolleyes.gif). And CB brings up showings to support his arguments (like Ajak's eyebeams being nearly as strong as Kly'bn's , or Hercules' fighting techniques being unsuccessful against Hulk, and when I debunk them he simply refuses to acknowledge a good point and flys off the handle trying to insult people and spitting at his computer screen.

@Jeronimo said:

Hercules FTW

HERC STOMPS - !!

#63 Edited by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck: Now that's irony, you completely ignored everything Citizenbane just said, instead addressed me in my one comment. It looks like you're not interested in genuine debate since you're purposely ignoring facts that someone's pointing out and addressing someone who's barely debating.

You were even caught referencing a comic that you never read involving DC's Hercules, when you were exposed putting it out of context, you completely ignored it.

#64 Posted by Dex_Starr (4772 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbuck said:

@CitizenBane: I am not addressing that wall of disingenuous text in it's entirety. You want me to "prove" about 17 different points, all the while not providing any proof for your statements.

Don't kid yourself, you can't address it at any rate.

1) Saying Hercules is less durable than Thor. Proove it. Everyone in here knows Herc > Thor without Mjolnir. That's just a fact. Thor admitted it, and it's time you do too.

That is because Thor does not have 99% of his powers without Mjolnir. This is idiotic, Herc does not have a single durability feat on Thor's level.

You say WW is more durable than Hercules. Prove it. Imo, that's laughable considering Superman has crushed WW's hand like a child's (there is NO way he would be able to do something like that to Hercules.

That's a good argument, really, calling everything "laughable" to cover up the fact that you can't prove anything. When did Superman crush Diana's hand like a child? And why on earth are we pretending that's anything other than a low showing? Wonder Woman has punched nukes and walked away without a scratch. She took a blast from an Imperiex drone that turned Captain Marvel inside out. You say Hercules is more durable than that? Prove it! You're the one arguing for Herc! Not me! You're the one who's supposed to counter that with things he's actually done! I'm not going to do your part for you! Are you going to do that or just go off on tangents about how everything's laughable? You can't possibly think refuting every "Prove this to be true" statement with "prove this is not true" is somehow a reasonable thing to do.

Just. No. .... meanwhile DC Hercules is ones hotting Superman into buildings.

Here's a tip: stop trying to quote instances from issues you've obviously never even read. It's an easy way to not embarrass yourself. DC Hercules never one-shotted Superman, he knocked him into a building, then he got smacked away by the Kingdom Come Superman, and when he landed the regular Superman picked him up and sent him flying through a building. He didn't get up. You've only seen some scans on CV, haven't you?

You say Herc "tried to wrestle with Hulk and got beaten to a pulp". Now... is that reaaaally what happened?? Or was it more like this:
Hulk vs Hercules 1 shot. Herc comes out looking pretty good.
Herc ducks a haymaker from Hulk and gets a single leg take down that sends them careening off the mountianside. (Hercules mastery of Pankraton is referenced* thats 2 skill references so far).

Yes, that is reaaaaaaaally what happened. It's in Incredible Hulk: Hercules Unleashed. Hulk thrashed Herc so badly that even he felt bad about it and told Herc to stay down for his own good. Herc's mastery of wrestling and Autolycus training is referenced in this fight. And it did him absolutely no good. Try again.

Saying Superman's heavt vision > Kly'bn's. You downplay Kly'bn's heat vision by using the fact that Ajaks' heat vision was even with his... but convenientlyignoring that in the very next panel Kly'bn's hv overpowers that of Ajaks.... and this happens:

Could you please point out what part of what I said previously is somehow hard to understand? I said Ajak's heat vision held off Kly'bn's for a while --which is true, post the pages prior to your image, if you will--, nowhere did I say it was even. You're the one who keeps insisting Herc can resist Superman's heat vision because he resisted Kly'bn's, thus equating the two attacks. If you can make a statement like that, there must be some proof that Kly'bn's heat vision is the equal or superior of Superman's. So where is it? I'm still waiting.

5) Marvel says the Nemean Lion skin is indestructible. You say it's not. Prove them wrong.

Marvel also says Sentry, Odin, Galactus, Death and Shuma-Gorath are all omnipotent even though they can't all be omnipotent at the same time and they've lost battles before. It's just a term that gets tossed around, for god's sake. It's not meant to be literal. How many countless times has adamantium been stated to be indestructible? And Captain America's shield as well? Both have been wrecked before.

Still waiting for this proof that you seem so reluctant to provide. Superman still wins.

I think I'll buy that comic.

#65 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (10233 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck: Well, I heard that Herc got beat so bad by Hulk so bad that big daddy Zeus had to come in and save him lol......if there is any truth to that, then Superman rick rolls this Greek and tosses his butt back to Olympus (superior strength, and reaction speed, not super speed). This is why BigCimmerian had to Nerf the guy so your fav could have a chance, and he still doesn't lol

#66 Posted by Saren (24284 posts) - - Show Bio

I think groupthink is my new favorite word of the day.

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#67 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally, I think Herc and Superman are close to the same in strength. Having said that, Herc is by far the more skilled fighter.

Hercules wins this.

#68 Posted by Jeronimo (670 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

Personally, I think Herc and Superman are close to the same in strength. Having said that, Herc is by far the more skilled fighter.

Hercules wins this.

Well said.

#69 Posted by spiderbuck (2406 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dex_Starr: Read this one too while you're at it.

@Ancient_0f_Days: Looks like you heard wrong.

#70 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10233 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck: That's not even the whole fight, just one page......that's like using the one where Wonder Woman cuts Superman's throat, or Batman damaging Wonder Woman by hitting her ears, or Spider-man staggering the Hulk and making it seem like that's how the whole fight went.......I heard right.

#71 Posted by 80sBaby (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Sooo, what happened AFTER the scan spiderbuck posted, I wonder...?

#72 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10233 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby: That's probably when Hulk got so mad that Zeus had to come in an ambulance to clean his son off the pavement

#73 Edited by spiderbuck (2406 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby said:

Sooo, what happened AFTER the scan spiderbuck posted, I wonder...?

They keep fighting, Hulk tries to smash Hercules with a column. Hercules meets the column with his fist and it shatters in the Hulks face and has Hulk blinded. Ares is coming too from his earlier trouncing at Huks hands and wants revenge. Hercules then Decks Ares from trying to strike a blinded opponent. At this point the fight ends as Athena explains whats going on to Herc and the Hulk and Herc team up to fight some Titans. Arguably Hercules won because he clearly does more damage, at worst it was a draw.

But really that's besides the point. Someone used this fight as an example of Herc's fighting techniques not working against Hulk, and that is clearly, undeniably and unequivocally incorrect, based on objective analysis of the fight, even in it's entirety.

@Ancient_0f_Days: Looks like you're still wrong.

#74 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (10233 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbuck: Scans?....and I'm thinking of one of their other many other encounters....unless that's the only one where Herc doesn't sraight up lose.

#75 Posted by TDK_1997 (13666 posts) - - Show Bio

Herc has good fearts but Superman still wins.

#76 Posted by jameshebrew (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jeronimo: supermans range attacks will ensure herc is very weakened or even defeated by the time they reach other for melee

#77 Posted by Lvenger (15969 posts) - - Show Bio

Even though the odds were more in Hercules' favour in this fight. Superman still takes the win. He still has a way more versatile power set than Hercules. In terms of fighting skills, Superman actually has better showings than Hercules so that's another advantage he has over Hercules.

#78 Posted by New_World_Order (11132 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman.

#79 Posted by Saren (24284 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman. Flat out better than Hulk's punching bag.

Moderator
#80 Posted by theDCkid (874 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman.

#81 Posted by jamesisaacs (211 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules has wrestling.

#82 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman.

#83 Posted by dondave (26498 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman

#84 Posted by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

Hercules

#85 Posted by Bo88gdan (4374 posts) - - Show Bio

Није што сам Марвел Фанбој али Херкулес је јебено и јачи и бољи борац од супермена . Херкулес би свакако победио !