Superman Vs. Dante

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

So according to you, constants don't matter, it's what we think of the character that matters? Well, I will never agree with you on that. It would be like saying that any situation in which the hero faces a difficulty is just a plot device, something to allow the story to be.

No. Consistency only matters when it's not contradicted. Superman is faster than every character you just named by miles and that's a fact, you can't deny it so the only way they would be capable of hitting him is by way of plot device. The writers can't make EVERY character he fights as fast as him, but the writer will allow those characters to hit Superman, otherwise he'd be untouchable to many of his enemies. It's the same thing with Spider-Man. His speed is superhuman, they've shown on tons of occasions that he has speed and reaction time that far exceeds that of even a peak human character..but Peak humans and regular humans hit him all the time. They HAVE TO, otherwise what would be the purpose of the comic? It's not like saying ANY time a hero faces difficulty it's a plot device because some characters actually have villains that have advantages over them or some type of defense for their abilities.

That is the way you CHOOSE to see things. There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Even the opposite of your logic can be backed up i.e. that the sudden speed or power surge is the thing constituting the plot device.

That's why I'l stick to what the writers and artists show us: Superman can be and is regularly hit by people broadly slower than he is and broadly slower than Dante is. Therefore he can be cut in half by the Yamato sword, a powerful magic tool that cuts through everything.

@Vance Astro said:

@KingofComix said:

No one ever says anything when superman fanboys do it though. If it's a forum rule, then they should get called out on it as well.

How would you know? You have 128 posts...Also I wasn't moderating the users post that I responded to. I was telling him that for debates sake. I don't have to call "Superman fanboys" out specifically on using plot devices to make a case, you can do it yourself. It's not the type of rule where going against it gets you in any sort of trouble, we just set that rule to make sure people are debating fairly and honestly.

What does my post count have even a sliver of anything to do with me noticing an inconsistency in moderation? 

that's what you're supposed to do. 

While Dante has some fairly fierce enemies, I dont see them on Superman's level. None of Dante's fights were against planet busters. Superman is one and then some, so he packs a punch that Dante hasn't felt yet. Supes FTW!

if you want to know who wins this then think of this. Yamato can cut off superman's head BUT will it if Dante is holding it?

That is the way you CHOOSE to see things. There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Even the opposite of your logic can be backed up i.e. that the sudden speed or power surge is the thing constituting the plot device.

That's why I'l stick to what the writers and artists show us: Superman can be and is regularly hit by people broadly slower than he is and broadly slower than Dante is. Therefore he can be cut in half by the Yamato sword, a powerful magic tool that cuts through everything.

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

That is the way you CHOOSE to see things. There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Even the opposite of your logic can be backed up i.e. that the sudden speed or power surge is the thing constituting the plot device.

That's why I'l stick to what the writers and artists show us: Superman can be and is regularly hit by people broadly slower than he is and broadly slower than Dante is. Therefore he can be cut in half by the Yamato sword, a powerful magic tool that cuts through everything.

That's not the way I choose to see things, that's the way they are. My point is logical..yours is not. If DC already has shown that Superman is damn near flash level whether he's running or flying as far as speed and that he can react to characters and objects that are faster than those you named because of the powers that have been set for him, than how can you sit here and act as if characters who are far slower can get hits off on him? There's no explanation for it other than a plot device. You can't argue that Superman moving at high speeds or having superhuman reaction time is a plot device..THOSE ARE HIS POWERS. There is no reason they SHOULDN'T work 100% of the time, and if there was you don't think that after over 50 years of Superman books, at least 1 writer would have put something in comics to let you know that what you were saying is true? There is nothing in Superman's history that suggests he can't move as fast as he wants to move at any given time or that he has trouble reacting to characters that are CLEARLY slower than him for any reason other than a plot device.

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

Supermans alot faster and more durable than Dante...... I'm not to sure if Dantes ever faught anybody as powerful as Superman before. Question is would Dantes typical Magic effect Superman? I personally have no seen it happen.

I'll go with Superman here.

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Superman squints at dante......

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. 

You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. 

 You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting.

That not only makes no sense it's not backed up by anything that was ever stated.

@DocFatalis said:

You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character.

I can call something illogical when it's a direct contradiction to the characters powers and there's no explanation for it. If Superman is fighting another character unless he's holding back there's no explanation as to why he wouldn't be able to dodge far slower characters EVERY TIME. I think how long this has been happening PROVES my point more so than it discredits it.

@DocFatalis said:

You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

Well obviously I don't believe that but I'm not going to argue with you about it. If you really feel that way you can stop responding to me if you want. I'm not saying your argument is illogical for the sake of being condescending, I'm saying that because what you're saying doesn't make any sense.

1) Unless of course your perception of the way the character usually employs his powers would be erroneous.

2) Only according to you and once again you have absolutely no solid proof of that, only your opinion, but you get all sanctimonious and announces it like it would be an indisputable truth. That is precisely one of the aspects of being condescending.

@DocFatalis: he doesn't adjust at all, he just decides to stop going easy.

1) Unless of course your perception of the way the character usually employs his powers would be erroneous.

2) Only according to you and once again you have absolutely no solid proof of that, only your opinion, but you get all sanctimonious and announces it like it would be an indisputable truth. That is precisely one of the aspects of being condescending.

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

Is this a joke? LOL! So you think there are just random, never before explained, fluctuations with respect to Superman's ability to use HIS OWN POWERS? LOL! Let me guess, you think after Superman takes off his outfit and becomes Clark Kent that he just randomly forgets how to use his own power? Let me guess, you think Kobe Bryant forgets how to play basketball when the final buzzer sounds in the 4th quarter? LOL! Listen to what you're saying man. One of Superman's abilities is superhuman performance. In order for what you're saying to be true, Superman would have to have superhuman performance but be incapable of properly using his own powers when he needed them. That's a flat out contradiction with how the character is supposed to work. There's nothing in any Superman comic book ever published which says that Superman has to adjust to using his powers as a fight goes on.

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

Superman squints at dante......

LOL, I don't know, Dante supporters are going to say he uses Royal Guard, charges up his attack and sends the blast back 10 fold with demonic energy.

Dante is better against marvel heavy hitters IMO. When it comes to fighting beings like Superman, we have to debate gameplay mechanics and abilities that Dante only used once or twice in a cutscene...

This is a topic that people should agree to disagree. There hasn't been many facts posted here and only speculation or opinion.

@SlimJ87D said:

@rpottage said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Epicbeast3000 said:

@SlimJ87D: superman can go far faster than speed of light

He can fly at FTL. What good is flying at faster than light speed if you can't control it. It's like Fighting someone and trying to fly a jet into a target over and over again. Iron Man can fly at Mach 10, doesn't mean he fights at Mach 10.

If you fly a Jet into someone, that'll do a lot of damage.

The point is it's a hard feat to do. You would have to take them completely by surprise. And Superman has no control of this ability whatsoever. He won't be able to hit the breaks on top or stop like the Flash does when he punches and moves at light speed and above. Because there are morals on also, he's not going to do this move because it could kill 100s of people.

@ComicStooge said:

@Spydey said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Spydey said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@Spydey said:

So..you really don't think Superman would be able to keep up with Quicksilver? Are we serious right now? Tell me we're not serious. His fight with Flash in the first JL issue showed he's got insane reaction time. The issue where he chased down the Outlaws showed how fast he can move.

Two, Supes DOES have the ability to put down Dante. Even if it's super powered DMC2 Dante.

OP says Pre-New 52 Superman. And if we were talking about New 52, Barry hasn't even used his powers to its full extent. Read his series, he's only using a small portion of the speed force.

When supes chased down the Outlaws when they teleported back to earth, didn't he do that from the Pluto or something?? So that would mean, Supes flew from Pluto then had to search the planet to find them.

He does have insane reaction time, because his mind has insane processing speeds..like when he became an expert doctor in like...4 minutes after reading all the medical books in a library. Supes has it. :\

I don't know about New-52 Superman, they have not elaborated on his combat speed but after what I heard about Cheetah giving the JL trouble I'm not really impressed with them right now compared to their old counterparts. . But traditionally Superman is fully capable of flying at FTL no problem, but it does not mean he can think at FTL.

Old Superman is still fast, but he's not FTL.

He has to be able to think close to it though, right? If he was able to read every book in the medical library in five minutes. And is Quicksilver moving Dante at lightspeed? I remember playing and they were still kinda moving a bit. Just incredibly slow.

He can think just fine at FTL, he fought Wonder Woman while going at speeds faster than light and has seen Barry while he was running at his top speed.

The fight with WW lasted a short amount of time but they still FLEW to the sun. If you said they ran all the way there then that's a different story.

You mean this is seeing Barry?

.

I can't upload pictures for whatever reason, but yeah, Barry ran past him away from death in Final Crisis and Superman saw and knew it was him. I might be reading into it wrong, however.

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

1) Unless of course your perception of the way the character usually employs his powers would be erroneous.

2) Only according to you and once again you have absolutely no solid proof of that, only your opinion, but you get all sanctimonious and announces it like it would be an indisputable truth. That is precisely one of the aspects of being condescending.

1.That's seems to be what you're not understanding. Is that the way Superman employs his powers or is that being disregarded for the plot? What sounds more logical to you, the idea that a characters powers randomly doesn't work for no stated reason or the fact that a writer would need to disregard speed in order for slower characters to make the fight worth reading? Why would such a huge detail about his speed never be stated? That makes sense to you? 2.I'm not the only one who thinks that your point doesn't make any sense. It's not condescending to compare our arguments. But again I'm not going to argue with you about whether that was my aim or not. It has nothing to do with the topic.

1) I understand perfectly, but I don't agree with you. The option you are presenting does not correspond to what I have said. If you re-read my previous post you will see that: I am not talking about involuntary fluctuations at all.

2) No, it has to do with your general behaviour and the tone you use with those who disagree with you, as I have already stated it. I think this is not the correct tone for a moderator so I just tell you, otherwise that would be condoning, which I try not to do in general.

@ComicStooge: i'm just baiting you in. Superman does not think or fight at FTL. I have dozens of post I could share with you but I'm just tired of copy and pasting them. Take my word for it or ask any notable debater here. Superman can't.

@SlimJ87D: They say he can take Superman's punches, tank everything and kill him before he can do anything, because of his vulnerability to magic. Also they think Superman's only option is to try and slug it out like a slow brick, instead of using his ranged abilities. Superman supporters know exactly why he wins and how, Dante supporters think he's gonna pull some final fantasy BS where Superman has to wait his turn and can't move until Dante's done, and all of his attacks are insta kill lol.

@NeonGameWave said:

@ghost_rider1: I don`t believe Superman to be FTL in reflexes, combat speed or just speed but more so traveling speed and his attacks won`t actually K.O Dante as Dante has suffered much worse in regards to punishment. During his younger years he has been impaled through the chest (4-5 times) by giant swords, smashed by a demon of great strength, slashed up by Yamato which can cut through anything, hit by meteorites, impaled by demonic lasers and more. Most of that consists of Dante being in human form and Dante with a mere thought can activate Quicksilver as shown in the following DMC 3 cutscene. That`s not true most if not all of Dante`s weapons stem from magic in some kind of shape or form although they are rooted and composed of demonic energies but that doesn`t mean they don`t have a magical or mystical element. Superman is going to have more problems than Dante as his attacks are more so physical and confrontational while Dante has the more range advantage as well as versatility. Superman is going to have to get in real close if he wants to hurt Dante, as Dante alone without including his time abilities is hypersonic+ in speed, combat speed, reflexes and reaction time. Yamato would hurt Superman a lot as it can cut through anything, and the sword itself is imbued with magic as well as magical properties. Dante is going to be the one to wreck Superman not the other way around.

It's ridiculous, but there's no convincing em' just like in the Naruto vs Superman thread ... lol

I don't know enough about Dante. Can anyone tell me a bit about him?

@SlimJ87D said:

@ComicStooge: i'm just baiting you in. Superman does not think or fight at FTL. I have dozens of post I could share with you but I'm just tired of copy and pasting them. Take my word for it or ask any notable debater here. Superman can't.

Point taken.

In any case, Dante can't move anywhere close to FTL either, so that won't really come into play.

1) I understand perfectly, but I don't agree with you. The option you are presenting does not correspond to what I have said. If you re-read my previous post you will see that: I am not talking about involuntary fluctuations at all.

2) No, it has to do with your general behaviour and the tone you use with those who disagree with you, as I have already stated it. I think this is not the correct tone for a moderator so I just tell you, otherwise that would be condoning, which I try not to do in general.

@SlimJ87D: They say he can take Superman's punches, tank everything and kill him before he can do anything, because of his vulnerability to magic. Also they think Superman's only option is to try and slug it out like a slow brick, instead of using his ranged abilities. Superman supporters know exactly why he wins and how, Dante supporters think he's gonna pull some final fantasy BS where Superman has to wait his turn and can't move until Dante's done, and all of his attacks are insta kill lol.

@NeonGameWave said:

@ghost_rider1: I don`t believe Superman to be FTL in reflexes, combat speed or just speed but more so traveling speed and his attacks won`t actually K.O Dante as Dante has suffered much worse in regards to punishment. During his younger years he has been impaled through the chest (4-5 times) by giant swords, smashed by a demon of great strength, slashed up by Yamato which can cut through anything, hit by meteorites, impaled by demonic lasers and more. Most of that consists of Dante being in human form and Dante with a mere thought can activate Quicksilver as shown in the following DMC 3 cutscene. That`s not true most if not all of Dante`s weapons stem from magic in some kind of shape or form although they are rooted and composed of demonic energies but that doesn`t mean they don`t have a magical or mystical element. Superman is going to have more problems than Dante as his attacks are more so physical and confrontational while Dante has the more range advantage as well as versatility. Superman is going to have to get in real close if he wants to hurt Dante, as Dante alone without including his time abilities is hypersonic+ in speed, combat speed, reflexes and reaction time. Yamato would hurt Superman a lot as it can cut through anything, and the sword itself is imbued with magic as well as magical properties. Dante is going to be the one to wreck Superman not the other way around.

It's ridiculous, but there's no convincing em' just like in the Naruto vs Superman thread ... lol

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

Is this a joke? LOL! So you think there are just random, never before explained, fluctuations with respect to Superman's ability to useHIS OWN POWERS? LOL! Let me guess, you think after Superman takes off his outfit and becomes Clark Kent that he just randomly forgets how to use his own power? Let me guess, you think Kobe Bryant forgets how to play basketball when the final buzzer sounds in the 4th quarter? LOL! Listen to what you're saying man. One of Superman's abilities is superhuman performance. In order for what you're saying to be true, Superman would have to have superhuman performance but be incapable of properly using his own powers when he needed them. That's a flat out contradiction with how the character is supposed to work. There's nothing in any Superman comic book ever published which says that Superman has to adjust to using his powers as a fight goes on.

Keep your familiarities and electronic laughters for you will you? Those are impolite childish ways.

Nothing in what I have written talks about involuntary fluctuations or memory losses. If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent. Wether it is a choice of the writers to tell a longer story or not doesn't change a thing to the fact that this is what happens very regularly. Ignoring that would be ignoring part of the continuity or part of the way Supes usually behaves. That can be your choice, but it's not mine. It's a question of opinion and there is no mocking the people for it or telling them "here's the way you should think because I know". The facts have been present all through 50 years of comics.

@SlimJ87D: I'm not saying Dante doesn't have a lot of abilities, or that those abilities aren't good. What I'm saying is his reaction feats don't lead me to believe he could react to a blitz from Superman. And his durability feats don't lead me to believe he would still be around after said blitz.

I could beat Superman easily and video game Dante is only a virtual extension of my skill so therefor; Superman gets owned

Keep your familiarities and electronic laughters for you will you? Those are impolite childish ways.

Nothing in what I have written talks about involuntary fluctuations or memory losses. If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent. Wether it is a choice of the writers to tell a longer story or not doesn't change a thing to the fact that this is what happens very regularly. Ignoring that would be ignoring part of the continuity or part of the way Supes usually behaves. That can be your choice, but it's not mine. It's a question of opinion and there is no mocking the people for it or telling them "here's the way you should think because I know". The facts have been present all through 50 years of comics.

@Ancient_0f_Days: From a neutral perspective, I do feel like Dante supporters have a good point on that magic part as all holy and demonic things in comics, specially marvel, are related to magic like Vance Astro pointed out.

But I feel their weakness is finding a gauge on how fast Dante is naturally and how much time does quick silver or bangle of time actually slow down.

I think Superman has a lot of facts laid out. We know how fast, strong and smart he is. BFR is allowed in this fight too. So if Dante supporters can't find a reasonable number on how fast Dante becomes then Superman takes it.

I personally don't think Dante with quicksilver can move like Superman does at Mach 500 from what I have seen and my personal approximations of his speed.

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

1) I understand perfectly, but I don't agree with you. The option you are presenting does not correspond to what I have said. If you re-read my previous post you will see that: I am not talking about involuntary fluctuations at all.

It's fine for you to disagree but you're not giving me anything to work with. Opinions can be baseless and nonsensical. The idea that what happens to Superman's speed and reaction time in combat is INVOLUNTARY, makes even less sense.

@DocFatalis said:

2) No, it has to do with your general behaviour and the tone you use with those who disagree with you, as I have already stated it. I think this is not the correct tone for a moderator so I just tell you, otherwise that would be condoning, which I try not to do in general.

Either PM this part to me or drop it.

1) I have precisely stated that there was NO involuntary fluctuation.

2) Why would I PM you that: there is nothing secret and when you do your remarks and adopt a condescending tone, you do it in public, so why on Earth would I tell you what I think about it in private. The rules work for everyone I believe and I am respecting them.

superman is going to win

1) I have precisely stated that there was NO involuntary fluctuation.

2) Why would I PM you that: there is nothing secret and when you do your remarks and adopt a condescending tone, you do it in public, so why on Earth would I tell you what I think about it in private. The rules work for everyone I believe and I am respecting them.

@SlimJ87D: if anything, magic is the only thing going for Dante right now, and I doubt it's even as powerful magic as they claim it is. They like to bring up the magic tiara cutting supes, that's cus it was forged from the same material as the Sword of Hephaestus. They can't prove how dantes magic will effect him so badly, but anyway....I think this thread was kinda pointless to begin with...

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@SlimJ87D: if anything, magic is the only thing going for Dante right now, and I doubt it's even as powerful magic as they claim it is. They like to bring up the magic tiara cutting supes, that's cus it was forged from the same material as the Sword of Hephaestus. They can't prove how dantes magic will effect him so badly, but anyway....I think this thread was kinda pointless to begin with...

He was also able to heal from the tiara cut it seconds.

@ComicStooge said:

@Ancient_0f_Days said:

@SlimJ87D: if anything, magic is the only thing going for Dante right now, and I doubt it's even as powerful magic as they claim it is. They like to bring up the magic tiara cutting supes, that's cus it was forged from the same material as the Sword of Hephaestus. They can't prove how dantes magic will effect him so badly, but anyway....I think this thread was kinda pointless to begin with...

He was also able to heal from the tiara cut it seconds.

more like a minute, but yeah that too

@NeonGameWave said:

Dante wrecks. If Superman tries to speedblitz, Dante could use Quicksilver, Bangle of Time and Chrono Heart to counter. Also most if not all his weapons are magical in nature which would further his chances of winning. The Dante from the new DmC is not the same one from the original DMC he is a Dante from another reality and its a new take on the DMC universe.

This

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

Keep your familiarities and electronic laughters for you will you? Those are impolite childish ways.

Nothing in what I have written talks about involuntary fluctuations or memory losses. If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent. Wether it is a choice of the writers to tell a longer story or not doesn't change a thing to the fact that this is what happens very regularly. Ignoring that would be ignoring part of the continuity or part of the way Supes usually behaves. That can be your choice, but it's not mine. It's a question of opinion and there is no mocking the people for it or telling them "here's the way you should think because I know". The facts have been present all through 50 years of comics.

@uberhikari before you respond to this, leave anything regarding DocFatalis personally out of it. If you want to debunk anything he said, be my guest but please, let's not turn this into a flame war.

I'm confused, nothing I wrote to DocFatalis was personal. If you think there was maybe you can quote it specifically.

Superman.

I'm confused, nothing I wrote to DocFatalis was personal. If you think there was maybe you can quote it specifically.

@NeonGameWave said:

Dante wrecks. If Superman tries to speedblitz, Dante could use Quicksilver, Bangle of Time and Chrono Heart to counter. Also most if not all his weapons are magical in nature which would further his chances of winning. The Dante from the new DmC is not the same one from the original DMC he is a Dante from another reality and its a new take on the DMC universe.

This

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@uberhikari said:

@DocFatalis said:

@Vance Astro said:

@DocFatalis said:

You mean nothing apart from the fact that it's been happening constantly for the past 50 years?

That's not proof of anything obviously. If Superman's powers only worked half the time, it would at least say that in a bio. Saying that a character is physically superhuman and then showing the opposite of that on several occassions, only doesn't need an explanation if it's a plot device. Captain Cold has a way of slowing down the Flash and it's stated in comics how he does it. Don't you think it would be an important detail to share if Superman's speed and reaction time only worked half the time? Wouldn't there have to be something wrong his powers or him physically for that to be the case?

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting. You can't call something inconsistent or illogical when it's been there for the entire life of the character. Just like you can't call my reasoning illogical when you have nothing else than your opinion to oppose it. You tend to be condescending to people who disagree with you, that's not the only time I have noticed that.

I can only think that you're either lying or trolling. There's no evidence in any Superman comic book ever published that Superman needs to get into the rhythm of fighting or adjust to use his powers effectively, in fact, the exact opposite is true. That's why Clark Kent goes into a phone booth, spins around, and Superman comes out instantaneously using all the powers granted to him by being underneath a yellow Sun. Superman has these powers naturally, therefore, there's nothing to which he needs to adjust. Moreover, superhuman performance is also a power that he possesses naturally. Even if you want to argue that Superman needs time to adjust to his powers your position would be contradicted by the evidence showing that he has preternatural, super human performance. Do you deny this? What you're doing is playing semantics. Your position is logical, and in the absence of evidence it might even be a plausible explanation, however, evidence trumps everything. You have no evidence to support your position and there's actually evidence contradicting your position.

Which evidences? You have never seen a Superman story beginning with him dominated by a character old or new and then he progressively comes back and ultimately wins by using more power than he previously had? Because that's something I see happening a lot.

Is this a joke? LOL! So you think there are just random, never before explained, fluctuations with respect to Superman's ability to useHIS OWN POWERS? LOL! Let me guess, you think after Superman takes off his outfit and becomes Clark Kent that he just randomly forgets how to use his own power? Let me guess, you think Kobe Bryant forgets how to play basketball when the final buzzer sounds in the 4th quarter? LOL! Listen to what you're saying man. One of Superman's abilities is superhuman performance. In order for what you're saying to be true, Superman would have to have superhuman performance but be incapable of properly using his own powers when he needed them. That's a flat out contradiction with how the character is supposed to work. There's nothing in any Superman comic book ever published which says that Superman has to adjust to using his powers as a fight goes on.

Keep your familiarities and electronic laughters for you will you? Those are impolite childish ways.

Nothing in what I have written talks about involuntary fluctuations or memory losses. If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent. Wether it is a choice of the writers to tell a longer story or not doesn't change a thing to the fact that this is what happens very regularly. Ignoring that would be ignoring part of the continuity or part of the way Supes usually behaves. That can be your choice, but it's not mine. It's a question of opinion and there is no mocking the people for it or telling them "here's the way you should think because I know". The facts have been present all through 50 years of comics.

Now your just playing semantics and word games by slowly changing what you say over time. On page 6 you said this:

There is an other one that would be to acknowledge the fact that the heroes can not immediately deploy their might or speed entirely and that need to get into the battle rhythm first.

Then on page 6 you said this:

No, the powers are there all the time ,it's just that using them at a level or an other requires a deliberate effort and adjusting.

Then on page 7 you said this:

If you re-read it with a cool head instead of trying to be sarcastic, you see that I depict something we have seen in a very large number of occasions all along Supermans carrier i.e. him gradually adjusting to the threat and progressively using enough power to triumph over his opponent.

So, you've said no less than three things, some of which directly contradict each other. First you said Superman can't immediately use his power to their fullest extent and, therefore, needs to get into "battle rhythm," then you said that Superman possesses these powers "all the time" but using them requires deliberate effort, then you say he needs to adjust as the fight goes on. So, which one is it? Is it battle rhythm, is it deliberate effort to use powers he naturally possesses, or is it adjusting to his opponents?

Number 1 is flat out nonsensical given the fact that Superman is a superhero who engages in fights all the time. Why would he need to get into "battle rhythm"? It's like saying that Kobe Bryant needs to get into rhythm in order to be a great basketball player even though his whole life revolves around playing basketball. Kobe Bryant has practiced so much over such a long period of time that his rhythm comes to him naturally. Superman is no different. It simply makes no sense to say that someone possesses a skill naturally but can't deploy it when they need it, even though they've used that skill on countless occasions. Are you really saying that Superman possesses powers naturally but can never deploy them to their fullest extent if he doesn't use them continuously? What evidence do you have for this?

Moreover, it's flat out contradicted by the evidence. There are innumerable instances where Clark Kent changes into Superman and can instantaneously access all his powers and use them with out any prep time whatsoever.

Number 2 is also nonsensical because you've already conceded that Superman possesses his powers naturally. However, if Superman possesses his super powers naturally and one of his superpowers is superhuman performance, then why would he need deliberate effort to use them? Either Superman really doesn't have superhuman performance, which would allow him to manipulate and use his powers with preternatural skill on a consistent basis, or he's forgetting to use his powers or they fluctuate uncontrollably. There's no evidence for the last 2 and the first one is a built in character contradiction. How could a character possess superhuman performance but consistently fail to use his own powers properly when he needs them? Why would he even need deliberate effort to use his powers properly if he'd already mastered using them through repeatedly deploying them in dire circumstances? How could a character be blocked from fully accessing powers they naturally possess? This would mean that Superman has a never before mentioned or explained character limitation.

Number 3 doesn't make sense either. Surely if Superman had problems adjusting to his powers and/or opponents he would sometimes kill his opponents accidentally, right? But instead Superman frequently gets beat up first. It would make more sense if you said Superman always starts his fights with what he believes to be the minimal force necessary to win and then gradually increases his strength to reach a level that allows him to defeat his opponents. At least this way you could plausibly explain why he frequently loses before he wins.

Moreover, you're absolutely talking in circles and contradicting yourself. For example, if someone is slower than Superman, why would Superman need to adjust to them? The only explanation without assuming a plot device is being used is to assume that Superman somehow forgets how to use his powers. If Superman possesses super speed naturally, then why would he start his fights slower than people he's naturally faster than? This doesn't make sense.

@Vance Astro said:

@uberhikari said:

I'm confused, nothing I wrote to DocFatalis was personal. If you think there was maybe you can quote it specifically.

In your first response to him you said he was either lying or trolling. That's about HIM and not the topic.

Right, because I think he's trolling. If I think someone is trolling am I not allowed to say so? Show me the rule that says I can't accuse someone of trolling if I think they're trolling.

Right, because I think he's trolling. If I think someone is trolling am I not allowed to say so? Show me the rule that says I can't accuse someone of trolling if I think they're trolling.

Stay On Topic

Stay on topic, now from time to time a thread can be taken off topic, now this can at times have it’s place, But often will lead to some type of argument or flaming. If you are talking in a topic you must focus on the characters at hand and anything else relevant to the battle, if you wish to talk about something else use the PM facility or use one of the many community chat areas often found in the RPG section or in Gen Discussion. 

I am suprised to see some ppl on the vine don't know that superman have super combat speed. Dante won't even hit superman.

Number 1 is flat out nonsensical given the fact that Superman is a superhero who engages in fights all the time. Why would he need to get into "battle rhythm"? It's like saying that Kobe Bryant needs to get into rhythm in order to be a great basketball player even though his whole life revolves around playing basketball. Kobe Bryant has practiced so much over such a long period of time that his rhythm comes to him naturally. Superman is no different. It simply makes no sense to say that someone possesses a skill naturally but can't deploy it when they need it, even though they've used that skill on countless occasions. Are you really saying that Superman possesses powers naturally but can never deploy them to their fullest extent if he doesn't use them continuously? What evidence do you have for this?

@NeonGameWave said:

@dondave: Even if Superman lands a hit, I doubt it would knock out Dante.

Lol, yeah it wouldn't knock him out. It would kill him. Well if this is morals off Dante, but I agree Dante has time powers, and could win.

@Vance Astro said:

@uberhikari said:

Right, because I think he's trolling. If I think someone is trolling am I not allowed to say so? Show me the rule that says I can't accuse someone of trolling if I think they're trolling.

Stay On Topic

Stay on topic, now from time to time a thread can be taken off topic, now this can at times have it’s place, But often will lead to some type of argument or flaming. If you are talking in a topic you must focus on the characters at hand and anything else relevant to the battle, if you wish to talk about something else use the PM facility or use one of the many community chat areas often found in the RPG section or in Gen Discussion.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/battle-forum-rules-please-read-for-more-information/675391/#1 Whether he's trolling or not is none of your concern, what you're SUPPOSED TO do if you believe he's trolling is flag his post and the mods will deal with it, if that IS what he's actually doing. Obviously from his response he doesn't believe he's trolling so all that's going to to do is start an argument.

I'm not going to sit here and have you dictate to me like I'm a child. I thought he was trolling, so I called him a troll. You don't like it, so what? He responded by saying that I was condescending and I ignored him. No personal attacks ensued and the argument continued in an orderly fashion. You need to learn how to pick and choose when to intervene. I could understand if the argument got out of hand but that didn't happen.

I thought he was trolling, so I called him a troll.