Superman vs Batman (Boxing Match)

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King_Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

I don't think you even realize how wack what you just posted was...it doesn't matter what you claim the gaps of Ted's so called physical capabilities are... he didn't display anything that was out of the ordinary in those scans against Killer Croc or Solomon Grundy to beat them... he did what skilled fighters tend to do... they evade and they strike... even if Ted's physical strength is superior to Ali's it's impossible to determine by how much... but considering Ali is a skilled fighter ( Elite Class Boxer ) and he has quality power... I see no reason why he couldn't duplicate what Ted did in those scans... the scans don't suggest that Ted was evading with some superhuman speed or he hit Croc with superhuman strength... so again, I don't see where you are going with this at all.

Killer Croc has killed other fodder with absolute ease. You fail to see that comic book characters will always be superior to real life humans. There is no evidence to suggest that Ali is fast, agile, or possesses the reaction time needed to evade Croc's blows in the first place. The reason why other humans have been able to defeat Killer Croc was because they were named characters. Without the assistance of plot, characters like Damian Wayne and Two-Face could be dead. He jobs because writers either downplay him or use him as a stepping stone so that important characters in the Batman mythos aren't killed off. Ali is not someone that is important to comic book mythology at all, and would be easily killed by Waylon. Yes, Ted did what skilled fighters what do, but the skilled fighters in the DC Universe make Ali look like the socially awkward wimp in high school. Even in the scans from Next Frontier, Ted remarked to have knocked out Ultra-Humanite with a single punch. That alone puts his striking power significantly above Ali's. You're also completely forgetting the fact that Ted has done well against Batman, easily defeated ninjas, and more. If you want to get into his high showings, he's went up against Hawkman, Tigress, Batman, and Creeper, all of whom are superior to Muhammad in every category. If you want to get into his lower showings, he's beaten up armed thugs, nameless robots, and fodder aliens, all of whom are superior to Muhammad in every category. Even an old Ted without the assistance of his gloves (often with metal spikes on them) has been able to put huge dents in walls with a single punch. He's also kicked a robot's leg clean off. He's far superior to Ali, and yet you fail time and time again to acknowledge this because you are too bias. Elite Class Boxer is a weightless title in the DC Universe, and his "quality power" is nothing for comic book characters. Vaguely describe Ali and wank his accomplishments all you want, but my point stands: Alfred would make Ali look like a clown. Croc and Wildcat would beat him in a minute tops.

  • Deduces Hush's disguise despite him having facial surgery to look exactly like Bruce, and displays martial arts techniques, temporarily downing the villain.
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  • Easily beats up a group of thugs armed with fully-automatic rifles.
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  • Gets the better of Dick Grayson, Nightwing, in a sparring contest in BATTLE FOR THE COWL.
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  • Beats up more goons armed with various handguns.

Do you see Muhammad Ali being able to get the better of Nightwing while sparring, and having the ability to take down multiple henchmen with various weapons? Yeah, I don't think so. And yet you honestly think that Ali would be able to defeat Wildcat or Killer Croc in a fight? You already made me laugh once. Don't make me do it again.

Ted is not exponentially more skilled at Boxing than Ali is... that is what is key. It doesn't matter what other skills Ted has... as we see in the scans he only used evasion and hand strikes... what is Ali known for ? That's right evasion and hand strikes.

Ted is significantly more skilled than Ali, especially if we this is Ted in his prime. The guy being able to take on armed goons with automatic weapons is already enough to put him over Ali. When you take in his other feats, such as facing off against Batman, only ignorance and bias would make you think he would be able be beaten by Ali. Peak humans in comic books are indeed superhuman. Ted Grant is none to use evasion and hand strikes with superhuman strength and speed (relative to our world). What does Ali lack to actually hurt Killer Croc? That's right: superhuman strength and speed. We're talking about someone who has easily killed heavily armed security and tanked a point-blank shotgun blast.

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  • Here's him tanking the shotgun bullets.
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Why would Killer Croc, who can maim armed SWAT members and easily tank a shotgun blast at point-blank range fall to a regular human using nothing but his hand-to-hand skill? Because they are named characters, and the writers use him as a stepping stone. If Croc was written right, he'd be able to give most street-levelers a hard time. The very fact that he even lasts more than thirty seconds against Batman is already a good feat compared to what Ali and other fighters in real life can do.

I brushed off nothing... I already told you it's irrelevant what stats Ali has... we already know he is a skilled boxer who used evasion and hand strikes... the same thing that was used by Ted to take him out. The gap between Ted and Ali at boxing is not great at all... I don't think one exists actually... plus, Ted is not physically on Croc's level either... yet, he could handle him.

You didn't brush off anything? How about Ali's incapability to give Batman a good fight whereas Wildcat was? How about the fact that Killer Croc has an advantage over Ali in strength, speed, and durability? Stats are relevant because all named characters in the DC Universe have better combat feats than people do in real life. Commissioner Gordon and Alfred alone can defeat Ali with minimal effort. Croc losing to Wildcat was because he has superhuman strength, speed, agility, and strength when compared to Ali. Saying "the two are human and skilled" isn't going to cut it pal. Stop using that excuse over and over again when I have already debunked it in every single post. You say the gap between Ted and Ali boxing is not great at all? Is that why the guy has been able to easily beat up thugs with fully-automatic rifles and handguns, aliens with futuristic equipment, robots, hordes of ninjas, and box with Batman himself? Ali cannot replicate a single feat that Ted has in his resume other than being his inconsistent feat of being beat up by thugs. Ted wasn't on Croc's level physically, but Ali is nowhere in Ted's league either. You also seem to forget that Wildcat's gloves have metal spikes on them (even without Waylon would have lost considering his job record). You're literally making the argument that just because both Ted and Ali are skilled boxers, dodge, and punch, that he would beat Croc. Are you kidding me? So you're saying that anyone in a boxing gym could defeat Croc because they are "skilled", dodge, and punch? C'mon now. This is getting ridiculous.

You posted scans of Killer Croc being handle by evasion and hand strikes from a Elite Boxer... that's what Ali is. Ali could do the same thing... Ali doesn't have to take on armed goons to beat Killer Croc... just evade and elbow. Well technically when Ali was apart of the comic book universe... and when he was one the few occasions... he beat up Superman and he was handling Ted Grant ( your boy ) so I don't think he is just a normal human even in the eyes of comic book writers.

You're assuming Ali is anymore in Ted's league. Again, Muhammad cannot replicate any of Ted's feats. Yet again you make the vague connection of "elite boxer", and "they're both human". If Ali cannot take on arm goons, he's not superhuman OR skilled enough to take on Killer Croc. He's not fast, strong, durable, or skilled enough to even beat some thugs with handguns. What makes you think he'll beat Croc, someone who has shrugged off shotgun bullets and ripped apart armed SWAT Members like they were nothing? Even if you make the incredibly weak argument that Ali will somehow evade and punch someone that is faster and more durable than him, you haven't even backed said argument with evidence, footage, or stats. If Ali has trouble with single boxers in matches, he's going to be stomped by Croc. It's plain and simple, but since you love Ali so much, you are deluding yourself into thinking he has a chance in a fight. Ali is awesome. He's one of boxing's greatest champions, and I have respect for the dude. However, he has NO chance in defeating Waylon. He beat up Superman, who was not skilled at all at the time. Even if he was skilled, all he knew was some pressure point techniques, which are prohibited in a boxing competition. Handling Ted Grant? Why don't you look at the scans again and say that with a serious face. Ali (your boy) lost to Ted Grant from an alternate universe. Even then the New Frontier Grant was able to punch out Ultra-Humanite, who has the body of a gorilla IIRC. An average gorilla, heck, monkey, would be able to manhandle even the toughest and skilled fighters we have today. Comic book writers not treating Ali like a normal human is irrelevant because this fight isn't happening in a comic book is it? Next time you respond to this, don't brush off all the feats I stated Wildcat has accomplished, the feats I posted Killer Croc has accomplished, and how the comic book peak humans would be superhuman in real life.

Keep telling yourself Ted is a better Boxer though... I mean if that's what makes you feel better. Than so be it.

Keep telling yourself Ali is better than Wildcat or Killer Croc, both of whom have easily wrecked fodder Ali would die fighting against. I mean, if that's what makes you feel better, than so be it.

Dude, your post is lame as heck...

It's totally irrelevant who fodder Croc has killed because Ali isn't like a regular human when portrayed in comics... when he has been portrayed in comics... initially he was able to beat down Pre Crisis Superman and as an inexperience fighter he was beating the crap out of the same guy you claim he is not in league with ( Ted Grant )... it doesn't matter what feats you show for Killer Croc... as you already shown that Croc can be beaten with evasion and hand strikes... Again, what does Ali use ? Evasion and Hand Strikes... we don't have to show Ali's stats or all the feats he has as obviously he isn't a natural comic book character... BUT when he has been portrayed in comic books he always does well against his opposition including "The Superhero" aka Pre Crisis Superman when engaging in battle... so if you are asking whether or not I think Ali could beat down goons in a comic book. I would say Yes he could... just like Ted Grant or possibly even worse as the implications are he is good enough to do so when in the comic book world.

I am lost... what is the point of the Alfred posts ? Are you still bent because I said I think you are crazy for thinking Alfred would lose to Muhammad Ali ? Well stay bent because none of those scans really do anything... I mean if Ali can beat up the character you claim he is supposedly weaker than and on top of that beat down PC Superman... I would think he could handle goons and Hush too.

It seems like you are heck bent on saying Ali isn't good enough to beat anyone in the comic book realm... but when portrayed in comic books... Ali beat the greatest superhero to ever exist... that just seems like terrible logic... Ted doesn't have Superhuman Strength or Speed or Durability... if that was truly the case then why the heck was Ali at a young age able to hurt up Ted so much in a Boxing Match ? Come on son... you got to do better than this man.

What makes you think Superman wasn't that skilled at the time at fighting ? Is it only because he lost to Ali ? Because this same Superman was fighting several super villains who was skilled at fighting and winning... so I really think you need to retract your statements man. Ali lost to Grant at the end because of a good strike at the end... but the totality of the fight had Ali beating the crap out of Grant... you can see it by Grant's face... and consider that this same Ali was an inexperience one. So again, the feat is highly impressive... it also shows that you are way off about your assessment of Ali's skills and strength... as if this Ali can hold up to this version of Grant... I think Ali in his prime would crack Grant's skull based on overall assessment.

I already told you why I think Ali could beat Croc... I told you like five times already... because Ali can evade and hit Croc in the head the same way Ted did... Ted did nothing in those scans that Ali can't really do. It's like you aren't even listening to the replies anymore. I mean you went off on a tangent to show scans about Alfred... and that was a side note. You show Croc tanking some gunfire... but who cares. The character was beaten by a Elbow of Wildcat essentially. I don't see why Ali can't use an Elbow to KO Croc either.

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek:

Skilled Superman would even wreck Ali in a boxing match. Even he's beaten thugs using his fists/no nerve strikes.

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@king_saturn said:

Dude, your post is lame as heck...

I'm sorry, did I happen to forget we were in kindergarten? Last time I checked you had to be around six or seven years old to say something was "lame" in order for it to legitimately discredit something. Refrain your lackluster insults, as they are only discrediting yourself.

It's totally irrelevant who fodder Croc has killed because Ali isn't like a regular human when portrayed in comics... when he has been portrayed in comics... initially he was able to beat down Pre Crisis Superman and as an inexperience fighter he was beating the crap out of the same guy you claim he is not in league with ( Ted Grant )... it doesn't matter what feats you show for Killer Croc... as you already shown that Croc can be beaten with evasion and hand strikes... Again, what does Ali use ? Evasion and Hand Strikes... we don't have to show Ali's stats or all the feats he has as obviously he isn't a natural comic book character... BUT when he has been portrayed in comic books he always does well against his opposition including "The Superhero" aka Pre Crisis Superman when engaging in battle... so if you are asking whether or not I think Ali could beat down goons in a comic book. I would say Yes he could... just like Ted Grant or possibly even worse as the implications are he is good enough to do so when in the comic book world.

Why is it not irrelevant that Ali can't even beat the fodder that Croc nonchalantly chomps and slices down with relevant ease? Why is it irrelevant that the enemies that Croc swats away like flies would be able to kill Ali? Why? You're still clinging onto your illusion that ABC logic isn't applicable in this situation, which it is. Ali was portrayed as a regular human in his fight against Pre-Crisis Superman, he was just portrayed as a human with lots of skill in boxing, which is what/who he is. You also do know that Superman was weakened due to Red Sun Radiation to dampen his superpowers right? So basically Ali beat up Superman, who at the time of the Silver Age had no hand-to-hand combat feats at all, let alone impressive ones, in his own sport that he had extensive history in. That's the equivalent of an international chess champion inviting a blind homeless man to play against him. I mean what did you expect? Not only was Superman weakened and had no boxing experience, but the issue was mostly advertising and praise for Ali. Hardly a legitimate or notable feat. If anything it's really just an embarrassing moment for the Man of Steel. Also, why do you keep saying that Muhammad was beating the crap out of Grant? You seem to forget that Ali..uh...kind of lost the fight. Did you forget that part of the scans? On top of his defeat, he was beaten by an alternate universe Wildcat, and he wasn't even as experienced as mainstream Wildcat, who has feats rooting back to the Golden Age. Stop using the extremely vague "evasion and hand strike" excuse in an attempt to refute and ignore my points. You're still brushing off my arguments after several posts. Give me footage, stats, and feats to suggest Ali is as fast, and has the adequate reaction time to evade Croc's blows, and is strong enough to produce hand strikes that would hurt Croc when shotgun bullets were shrugged off. Don't bother referencing to the match where Ali lost to an alternate universe Ted Grant, and when he beat a Silver Age Superman with no combat skills. Ali has about two comic book appearances from what I know, and possibly some other guest appearances and cameos. Tell me why he would be able contend with Croc and Wildcat without baseless speculation. When did I even say we were using comic book Ali? You were obviously referring to real-life Ali by comparing and analyzing his fights with other boxers, and now that it doesn't help your argument, you're suddenly now using his comic book counterpart. Nevertheless, without the assistance of PIS/WIS and jobbing, both Ted and Waylon would dispatch, with the latter possibly even killing, Muhammad Ali. Heck, even if we take the absurd route of using Ali's comic book counterpart from Pre-Crisis and the New Frontier alternate universe version, there's nothing to suggest he would defeat either combatant I am defending, because Ali's only feats are losing to Wildcat and beating up Superman when he didn't even have hand-to-hand prowess. Meanwhile, Killer Croc is shrugging off bullets and giving street-levelers like Batman a fight, and Wildcat is still possessing his encounters also with Batman with his belt, as well as being able to smite fodder including armed thugs, robots, aliens, and more. When we see real-life or comic book Muhammad replicate any of this call me.

I am lost... what is the point of the Alfred posts ? Are you still bent because I said I think you are crazy for thinking Alfred would lose to Muhammad Ali ? Well stay bent because none of those scans really do anything... I mean if Ali can beat up the character you claim he is supposedly weaker than and on top of that beat down PC Superman... I would think he could handle goons and Hush too.

I'm lost too! It seems I've fallen into your world of delusion where you think Muhammad Ali can defeat Killer Croc and Wildcat despite no hard evidence backing it up! My point was with Pennyworth that, even someone who has as little feats as Alfred is able to mop the floor with Ali, a top combatant in our reality when he was in his prime. What does this say for Ali when he goes up against Wildcat and Killer Croc, both with superior stats and feats (arguable for Waylon)? Those scans perfectly illustrate how Muhammad hasn't got a piece of dust of a chance against almost any DC combatant. You're not even providing reasoning for your arguments at this point. You're just simply shrugging and saying "none of this proves anything", when it quite clearly does. You continue on your debate only to degrade itself. You still seem to forget that Pre-Crisis Superman didn't have his powers, and without them, he's just a muscular dude who can swing his fists around.

- From the official DC website

The legendary science fiction epic that brought together The Man of Steel and The Greatest is back in two spectacular hardcover editions! In 1978, an alien race called the Scrubb demands that Earth's greatest champion battle their world's own greatest fighter. Both Superman and Muhammad Ali step forward — and to determine who is truly Earth's greatest fighter, Superman temporarily loses his powers and faces Ali in the ring. Ultimately, the duo must work together to defeat the Scrubb, with Ali taking on their champion while Superman battles their space-armada.The deluxe edition hardcover is printed at 7.0625" x 10.875" and features a new cover by Neal Adams, previously unpublished artwork and more!

Notice how it says "temporarily loses his powers and faces Ali in the ring." This means that Clark didn't have any of his powers at all when he lost to Ali, and even then, it's not like Muhammad stomped Superman. Give me combat demonstrations from Silver Age Superman that weren't inconsistent, made up on the spot, and already forgotten by the next issue. Ali held his own against an alternative universe version of one of the characters I'm defending, but still ultimately lost. How exactly does this help your argument? You keep bringing up this instance like Muhammad had won it, and the way you're referring his fight with Superman you seem to think he was still in possession of his powers. He wouldn't be able to defeat most of the armed thugs that even low street-levelers face off against, and you expect me to believe he'd defeat Hush, who has squared off with Batman? You honestly think Ali can beat Wildcat, Killer Croc, and Hush? Who else do you expect the almighty Muhammad Ali to defeat? Damian Wayne? Catwoman? Batman himself? Honestly this is getting ludicrous.

It seems like you are heck bent on saying Ali isn't good enough to beat anyone in the comic book realm... but when portrayed in comic books... Ali beat the greatest superhero to ever exist... that just seems like terrible logic... Ted doesn't have Superhuman Strength or Speed or Durability... if that was truly the case then why the heck was Ali at a young age able to hurt up Ted so much in a Boxing Match ? Come on son... you got to do better than this man.

Me? Using terrible logic? We must really be in your deluded fantasy after all! First of all, Ali can't beat anyone in the comic book realm who has displayed legitimate martial arts prowess, or have considerable superhuman physicals or intelligence. When portrayed in comic books, Ali beat Superman in a comic book crossover that was a cash-in to the boxer's hype. They even severely nerfed him to an extent very similar to the rules in this battle thread, and Clark lost. Not only does this strengthen my argument that Batman would stomp Superman in a boxing match, but it also isn't impressive for Ali either. Oh, and the "greatest superhero to ever exist" is extremely opinionated and holds absolutely no weight when you're discussing a fight. It's like the fanboys saying Batman wins because he has better character development. I never said Wildcat had superhuman strength, speed, and durability. I said relative to our reality and the top fighters of our world, WIldcat far outclasses them and would be considered to have superhuman strength, speed, and durability. You honestly haven't been reading my posts clearly. If you have, you must have been reading them through your Muhammad Ali beer goggles. Stop referring to the alternative universe encounter with Wildcat THAT HE LOST. I seriously need to drive these points. It's from an Elseworlds story, and he didn't even win. You expect him to beat Wildcat, who has feats going back from the Golden Age, without the assistance of PIS/WIS and jobbing? Come on "son", you've got to do better than that man.

What makes you think Superman wasn't that skilled at the time at fighting ? Is it only because he lost to Ali ? Because this same Superman was fighting several super villains who was skilled at fighting and winning... so I really think you need to retract your statements man. Ali lost to Grant at the end because of a good strike at the end... but the totality of the fight had Ali beating the crap out of Grant... you can see it by Grant's face... and consider that this same Ali was an inexperience one. So again, the feat is highly impressive... it also shows that you are way off about your assessment of Ali's skills and strength... as if this Ali can hold up to this version of Grant... I think Ali in his prime would crack Grant's skull based on overall assessment.

This is like the third time you've tried to make someone look more impressive than they really are by attaching weightless claims to someone and trying to make them look better by vaguely describing their accomplishments. What exactly does skilled at "fighting and winning" even mean? Most of the villains Superman faced in the Silver Age weren't even seen again, had absolutely no extensive history of impressive combat skill (nor did they demonstrate it), and Superman won with his powers, some of which he made up on the spot. You're acting like Superman and his villains relied on hand-to-hand combat skills, especially in the Silver Age when the Comics Code Authority tamed down violence to an intense degree. Ali lost to Grant in the end because of a good strike.....and? Is that suppose to somehow diminish the quality of the feat? It's not like Ali was distracted. It was a hit that was powerful enough to knock him out. What makes you think Killer Croc, who has enhanced strength, wouldn't be able to do the same? Talk about shooting yourself in your own foot. There also isn't anything to suggest that the alternate universe Wildcat was even injured that badly. All we saw was he was visibly bruised up on his face, but he wasn't showing extreme signs of pain or tire. In fact, he was completely fine at the end of the fight as the crowd cheered him. If Ali was really able to give a beating on Grant, he would have won, but have collapsed due to exhaustion or something along the lines. Obviously that isn't the case, because Wildcat is relatively fine and standing firm and proud. Oh, and did I mention this happened with an alternate universe Ted who isn't as impressive as mainstream Wildcat? You're the one that is way off about Ali's skill and strength. You're clearly overestimating him and sprinkling your bias over it. The feat may be impressive but it isn't enough to suggest he'd come anywhere near mainstream Wildcat, Killer Croc, or even Hush. Real life Ali doesn't hold up to the comic book standards, mainstream Ali only beat Clark that was immensely weakened, and New Frontier Ali was inexperienced yes, but still couldn't beat New Frontier Wildcat. Even if his real life and mainstream DC continuity counterpart are more experienced, they still lack the feats and stats to match up with the characters I've mentioned. At best Ali in his prime would crack an old, frail Wildcat, and even then I'm doubting that. Throw in all three versions and they'd still have trouble with Grant, but they'd still get stomped by Hush and Croc considering the former is an excellent hand-to-hand combatant with feats to prove it, and has a handgun, while the latter has enhanced strength, speed, durability, and a healing factor. Just because an inexperienced Ali held his own against "this" version of Grant, doesn't mean he is good enough to beat Waylon, Hush, and mainstream Wildcat. And why do you say "this" version of Grant? It's not like New Frontier Wildcat was more impressive than his mainstream version. Bottom line, your argument is vague, has no evidence, and is extremely flawed.

I already told you why I think Ali could beat Croc... I told you like five times already... because Ali can evade and hit Croc in the head the same way Ted did... Ted did nothing in those scans that Ali can't really do. It's like you aren't even listening to the replies anymore. I mean you went off on a tangent to show scans about Alfred... and that was a side note. You show Croc tanking some gunfire... but who cares. The character was beaten by a Elbow of Wildcat essentially. I don't see why Ali can't use an Elbow to KO Croc either.

You've also failed to provide footage, feats, and evidence for all five times that I've asked you. Ali can evade and hit Croc with the same speed and strength as Wildcat with gloves and metal spikes and comic book physics based on what? Stop brushing off my points and provide me with evidence. Everything Ted does Ali cannot replicate, because he hasn't, hasn't displayed that he can, and doesn't even have the raw stats to even open the option of speculating so. You are the one that aren't listening to my replies, because if you read, you can clearly see I've been asking for evidence for multiple posts. I showed you the Alfred scans to indicate how pathetic Ali is compared to the comic book standard of fighters. Who cares that Croc tanked point-blank shotgun bullets that would instantaneously kill Muhammad? Who cares? That is the most lazy excuse and excuse to brush off my points I've seen so far. Croc was beaten by Wildcat because he was jobbing against a named character, and I'm pretty sure I explicitly stated that despite Waylon jobbing, Ali shouldn't be able to replicate the same feat. Then, I proved evidence with Croc's own displays of durability and other stats. You on the other hand, persist with the vague explanation of "evading and hand strikes" without giving any evidence, but instead, make the defective connection of "both Ted and Ali are skilled, human, box, and dodge and punch". It takes someone with Batman's strength to break Killer Croc's leg as seen in the New 52, and even then some people it was PIS and/or Croc was jobbing. I'd ask you to provide me evidence for Ali striking power and how he'd knock out Croc with a hit when he's shrugged off weapon-fire, but I'm pretty sure you'd just ignore it and go on about "evading and hand strikes".

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#104  Edited By Wolverine008

I'm sorry, did I happen to forget we were in kindergarten? Last time I checked you had to be around six or seven years old to say something was "lame" in order for it to legitimately discredit something. Refrain your lackluster insults, as they are only discrediting yourself.

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#107  Edited By reaverlation
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King_Saturn

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@king_saturn said:

Dude, your post is lame as heck...

I'm sorry, did I happen to forget we were in kindergarten? Last time I checked you had to be around six or seven years old to say something was "lame" in order for it to legitimately discredit something. Refrain your lackluster insults, as they are only discrediting yourself.

It's totally irrelevant who fodder Croc has killed because Ali isn't like a regular human when portrayed in comics... when he has been portrayed in comics... initially he was able to beat down Pre Crisis Superman and as an inexperience fighter he was beating the crap out of the same guy you claim he is not in league with ( Ted Grant )... it doesn't matter what feats you show for Killer Croc... as you already shown that Croc can be beaten with evasion and hand strikes... Again, what does Ali use ? Evasion and Hand Strikes... we don't have to show Ali's stats or all the feats he has as obviously he isn't a natural comic book character... BUT when he has been portrayed in comic books he always does well against his opposition including "The Superhero" aka Pre Crisis Superman when engaging in battle... so if you are asking whether or not I think Ali could beat down goons in a comic book. I would say Yes he could... just like Ted Grant or possibly even worse as the implications are he is good enough to do so when in the comic book world.

Why is it not irrelevant that Ali can't even beat the fodder that Croc nonchalantly chomps and slices down with relevant ease? Why is it irrelevant that the enemies that Croc swats away like flies would be able to kill Ali? Why? You're still clinging onto your illusion that ABC logic isn't applicable in this situation, which it is. Ali was portrayed as a regular human in his fight against Pre-Crisis Superman, he was just portrayed as a human with lots of skill in boxing, which is what/who he is. You also do know that Superman was weakened due to Red Sun Radiation to dampen his superpowers right? So basically Ali beat up Superman, who at the time of the Silver Age had no hand-to-hand combat feats at all, let alone impressive ones, in his own sport that he had extensive history in. That's the equivalent of an international chess champion inviting a blind homeless man to play against him. I mean what did you expect? Not only was Superman weakened and had no boxing experience, but the issue was mostly advertising and praise for Ali. Hardly a legitimate or notable feat. If anything it's really just an embarrassing moment for the Man of Steel. Also, why do you keep saying that Muhammad was beating the crap out of Grant? You seem to forget that Ali..uh...kind of lost the fight. Did you forget that part of the scans? On top of his defeat, he was beaten by an alternate universe Wildcat, and he wasn't even as experienced as mainstream Wildcat, who has feats rooting back to the Golden Age. Stop using the extremely vague "evasion and hand strike" excuse in an attempt to refute and ignore my points. You're still brushing off my arguments after several posts. Give me footage, stats, and feats to suggest Ali is as fast, and has the adequate reaction time to evade Croc's blows, and is strong enough to produce hand strikes that would hurt Croc when shotgun bullets were shrugged off. Don't bother referencing to the match where Ali lost to an alternate universe Ted Grant, and when he beat a Silver Age Superman with no combat skills. Ali has about two comic book appearances from what I know, and possibly some other guest appearances and cameos. Tell me why he would be able contend with Croc and Wildcat without baseless speculation. When did I even say we were using comic book Ali? You were obviously referring to real-life Ali by comparing and analyzing his fights with other boxers, and now that it doesn't help your argument, you're suddenly now using his comic book counterpart. Nevertheless, without the assistance of PIS/WIS and jobbing, both Ted and Waylon would dispatch, with the latter possibly even killing, Muhammad Ali. Heck, even if we take the absurd route of using Ali's comic book counterpart from Pre-Crisis and the New Frontier alternate universe version, there's nothing to suggest he would defeat either combatant I am defending, because Ali's only feats are losing to Wildcat and beating up Superman when he didn't even have hand-to-hand prowess. Meanwhile, Killer Croc is shrugging off bullets and giving street-levelers like Batman a fight, and Wildcat is still possessing his encounters also with Batman with his belt, as well as being able to smite fodder including armed thugs, robots, aliens, and more. When we see real-life or comic book Muhammad replicate any of this call me.

I am lost... what is the point of the Alfred posts ? Are you still bent because I said I think you are crazy for thinking Alfred would lose to Muhammad Ali ? Well stay bent because none of those scans really do anything... I mean if Ali can beat up the character you claim he is supposedly weaker than and on top of that beat down PC Superman... I would think he could handle goons and Hush too.

I'm lost too! It seems I've fallen into your world of delusion where you think Muhammad Ali can defeat Killer Croc and Wildcat despite no hard evidence backing it up! My point was with Pennyworth that, even someone who has as little feats as Alfred is able to mop the floor with Ali, a top combatant in our reality when he was in his prime. What does this say for Ali when he goes up against Wildcat and Killer Croc, both with superior stats and feats (arguable for Waylon)? Those scans perfectly illustrate how Muhammad hasn't got a piece of dust of a chance against almost any DC combatant. You're not even providing reasoning for your arguments at this point. You're just simply shrugging and saying "none of this proves anything", when it quite clearly does. You continue on your debate only to degrade itself. You still seem to forget that Pre-Crisis Superman didn't have his powers, and without them, he's just a muscular dude who can swing his fists around.

- From the official DC website

The legendary science fiction epic that brought together The Man of Steel and The Greatest is back in two spectacular hardcover editions! In 1978, an alien race called the Scrubb demands that Earth's greatest champion battle their world's own greatest fighter. Both Superman and Muhammad Ali step forward — and to determine who is truly Earth's greatest fighter, Superman temporarily loses his powers and faces Ali in the ring. Ultimately, the duo must work together to defeat the Scrubb, with Ali taking on their champion while Superman battles their space-armada.The deluxe edition hardcover is printed at 7.0625" x 10.875" and features a new cover by Neal Adams, previously unpublished artwork and more!

Notice how it says "temporarily loses his powers and faces Ali in the ring." This means that Clark didn't have any of his powers at all when he lost to Ali, and even then, it's not like Muhammad stomped Superman. Give me combat demonstrations from Silver Age Superman that weren't inconsistent, made up on the spot, and already forgotten by the next issue. Ali held his own against an alternative universe version of one of the characters I'm defending, but still ultimately lost. How exactly does this help your argument? You keep bringing up this instance like Muhammad had won it, and the way you're referring his fight with Superman you seem to think he was still in possession of his powers. He wouldn't be able to defeat most of the armed thugs that even low street-levelers face off against, and you expect me to believe he'd defeat Hush, who has squared off with Batman? You honestly think Ali can beat Wildcat, Killer Croc, and Hush? Who else do you expect the almighty Muhammad Ali to defeat? Damian Wayne? Catwoman? Batman himself? Honestly this is getting ludicrous.

It seems like you are heck bent on saying Ali isn't good enough to beat anyone in the comic book realm... but when portrayed in comic books... Ali beat the greatest superhero to ever exist... that just seems like terrible logic... Ted doesn't have Superhuman Strength or Speed or Durability... if that was truly the case then why the heck was Ali at a young age able to hurt up Ted so much in a Boxing Match ? Come on son... you got to do better than this man.

Me? Using terrible logic? We must really be in your deluded fantasy after all! First of all, Ali can't beat anyone in the comic book realm who has displayed legitimate martial arts prowess, or have considerable superhuman physicals or intelligence. When portrayed in comic books, Ali beat Superman in a comic book crossover that was a cash-in to the boxer's hype. They even severely nerfed him to an extent very similar to the rules in this battle thread, and Clark lost. Not only does this strengthen my argument that Batman would stomp Superman in a boxing match, but it also isn't impressive for Ali either. Oh, and the "greatest superhero to ever exist" is extremely opinionated and holds absolutely no weight when you're discussing a fight. It's like the fanboys saying Batman wins because he has better character development. I never said Wildcat had superhuman strength, speed, and durability. I said relative to our reality and the top fighters of our world, WIldcat far outclasses them and would be considered to have superhuman strength, speed, and durability. You honestly haven't been reading my posts clearly. If you have, you must have been reading them through your Muhammad Ali beer goggles. Stop referring to the alternative universe encounter with Wildcat THAT HE LOST. I seriously need to drive these points. It's from an Elseworlds story, and he didn't even win. You expect him to beat Wildcat, who has feats going back from the Golden Age, without the assistance of PIS/WIS and jobbing? Come on "son", you've got to do better than that man.

What makes you think Superman wasn't that skilled at the time at fighting ? Is it only because he lost to Ali ? Because this same Superman was fighting several super villains who was skilled at fighting and winning... so I really think you need to retract your statements man. Ali lost to Grant at the end because of a good strike at the end... but the totality of the fight had Ali beating the crap out of Grant... you can see it by Grant's face... and consider that this same Ali was an inexperience one. So again, the feat is highly impressive... it also shows that you are way off about your assessment of Ali's skills and strength... as if this Ali can hold up to this version of Grant... I think Ali in his prime would crack Grant's skull based on overall assessment.

This is like the third time you've tried to make someone look more impressive than they really are by attaching weightless claims to someone and trying to make them look better by vaguely describing their accomplishments. What exactly does skilled at "fighting and winning" even mean? Most of the villains Superman faced in the Silver Age weren't even seen again, had absolutely no extensive history of impressive combat skill (nor did they demonstrate it), and Superman won with his powers, some of which he made up on the spot. You're acting like Superman and his villains relied on hand-to-hand combat skills, especially in the Silver Age when the Comics Code Authority tamed down violence to an intense degree. Ali lost to Grant in the end because of a good strike.....and? Is that suppose to somehow diminish the quality of the feat? It's not like Ali was distracted. It was a hit that was powerful enough to knock him out. What makes you think Killer Croc, who has enhanced strength, wouldn't be able to do the same? Talk about shooting yourself in your own foot. There also isn't anything to suggest that the alternate universe Wildcat was even injured that badly. All we saw was he was visibly bruised up on his face, but he wasn't showing extreme signs of pain or tire. In fact, he was completely fine at the end of the fight as the crowd cheered him. If Ali was really able to give a beating on Grant, he would have won, but have collapsed due to exhaustion or something along the lines. Obviously that isn't the case, because Wildcat is relatively fine and standing firm and proud. Oh, and did I mention this happened with an alternate universe Ted who isn't as impressive as mainstream Wildcat? You're the one that is way off about Ali's skill and strength. You're clearly overestimating him and sprinkling your bias over it. The feat may be impressive but it isn't enough to suggest he'd come anywhere near mainstream Wildcat, Killer Croc, or even Hush. Real life Ali doesn't hold up to the comic book standards, mainstream Ali only beat Clark that was immensely weakened, and New Frontier Ali was inexperienced yes, but still couldn't beat New Frontier Wildcat. Even if his real life and mainstream DC continuity counterpart are more experienced, they still lack the feats and stats to match up with the characters I've mentioned. At best Ali in his prime would crack an old, frail Wildcat, and even then I'm doubting that. Throw in all three versions and they'd still have trouble with Grant, but they'd still get stomped by Hush and Croc considering the former is an excellent hand-to-hand combatant with feats to prove it, and has a handgun, while the latter has enhanced strength, speed, durability, and a healing factor. Just because an inexperienced Ali held his own against "this" version of Grant, doesn't mean he is good enough to beat Waylon, Hush, and mainstream Wildcat. And why do you say "this" version of Grant? It's not like New Frontier Wildcat was more impressive than his mainstream version. Bottom line, your argument is vague, has no evidence, and is extremely flawed.

I already told you why I think Ali could beat Croc... I told you like five times already... because Ali can evade and hit Croc in the head the same way Ted did... Ted did nothing in those scans that Ali can't really do. It's like you aren't even listening to the replies anymore. I mean you went off on a tangent to show scans about Alfred... and that was a side note. You show Croc tanking some gunfire... but who cares. The character was beaten by a Elbow of Wildcat essentially. I don't see why Ali can't use an Elbow to KO Croc either.

You've also failed to provide footage, feats, and evidence for all five times that I've asked you. Ali can evade and hit Croc with the same speed and strength as Wildcat with gloves and metal spikes and comic book physics based on what? Stop brushing off my points and provide me with evidence. Everything Ted does Ali cannot replicate, because he hasn't, hasn't displayed that he can, and doesn't even have the raw stats to even open the option of speculating so. You are the one that aren't listening to my replies, because if you read, you can clearly see I've been asking for evidence for multiple posts. I showed you the Alfred scans to indicate how pathetic Ali is compared to the comic book standard of fighters. Who cares that Croc tanked point-blank shotgun bullets that would instantaneously kill Muhammad? Who cares? That is the most lazy excuse and excuse to brush off my points I've seen so far. Croc was beaten by Wildcat because he was jobbing against a named character, and I'm pretty sure I explicitly stated that despite Waylon jobbing, Ali shouldn't be able to replicate the same feat. Then, I proved evidence with Croc's own displays of durability and other stats. You on the other hand, persist with the vague explanation of "evading and hand strikes" without giving any evidence, but instead, make the defective connection of "both Ted and Ali are skilled, human, box, and dodge and punch". It takes someone with Batman's strength to break Killer Croc's leg as seen in the New 52, and even then some people it was PIS and/or Croc was jobbing. I'd ask you to provide me evidence for Ali striking power and how he'd knock out Croc with a hit when he's shrugged off weapon-fire, but I'm pretty sure you'd just ignore it and go on about "evading and hand strikes".

When someone keeps posting a bunch of crap that's irrelevant to a discussion... then it's Lame... your attempts to try to soften the blow of my replies is not working at all. You keep posting tons of stuff but 98 percent of it is not even relevant to the discussion at hand. That's Garbage.

You keep posting a lot of crap but it's all pointless and irrelevant... You showed earlier in a scan what it took to beat Killer Croc... evasion and hand strikes... that's exactly what Muhammad Ali uses. Then you went on to say how Ali wasn't on Ted's level... Yet, Ali at a young age and an inexperienced level showed he could beat the crap out of Ted. Then you said that Pre Crisis Superman getting beat by Muhammad Ali wasn't that good because he didn't have his powers... but you still neglect the point that PC Superman is still a skilled fighter... not Ali level at Boxing... but still skilled... I mean if a young Ali can hurt up Ted Grant like that... do you really expect Superman to do much better against Ali in his prime ? Come on dude... this is easy. Ali would beat Ted in Boxing if they fought again and both are in their prime.

Let's talk about Killer Croc... see the problem is Croc having enhanced strength doesn't mean he will hit Ali... Ali is known for his quickness and quality striking... yeah, Ted KO's Ali... but you Keep Forgetting that this was a Young Ali... Not Ali in his Prime... and at the same time the beating that Ali gave Ted beforehand... Oh, how we keep forgetting that. I think what's sad more than anything is you are bending the evidence to fit your own agenda... in the scans of Ali vs Grant... Grant's face is Battered... it's not just exhaustion that's got him... it's the beating he has taken from Ali... you also obviously don't know crap about Boxing... as if Ali was battering Grant that means he was winning the fight up until that point of him getting caught...

You have not made any points... you just keep posting pointless scans and then asking for stats... We have already been over what Ali has done and can do... but you seem hell bent on believing he can't beat Ted... yet even at a young age his was battering Ted up... but lets look at a few other things then shall we ?

You have been begging for other instances of Ali's abilities right ? Well lets look at somethings that happened in the Superman vs Muhammad Ali comic.

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Ali taking a blow from a Superhuman Alien and then returning a strike... Hmmmm, not good enough eh ? Well lets try something else. Cause I know how you folks like evidence so much...

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Muhammad Ali uppercutting a Giant Robot made out of Metal.... Hmmmmm, not good enough right ? It's just a Metal Robot. Okay, lets try something else.

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Notice how it's stated that Hun-Ya has the "Toughest Skin the Universe" and right after that he smashes a Metal Wall...

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Hmmmm... what's this ? Ali is smashing up Aliens and fight that Alien that can smash Metal Walls...

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Ali fighting with the Giant Alien again... as well as smashing up some Aliens on the other panel.

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Ali taking blows from the Giant Alien that can smash Metal Walls gets knocked down and gets back up...

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Hmmmm... now Ali is dodging and attacking the Alien.

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Hmmmm... that's interesting. Ali is able to knock an alien who can smash up Metal and supposedly is superhuman durable through the ropes for a KO... now how often do you have someone with just regular punching power smash someone through the ropes ? When Ted KO a young Ali... did he smash him through the ropes ? Consider also the size of Hun-Ya in comparison to Ali... Hun Ya is a Giant in comparison to him along with his superhuman attributes. Also, how does Ali just tank Punches from a Guy who can smash Metal Walls if he has just human durability ?

Oooooh, but Ali... he is just a Boxer... he don't have any real physical attributes to say he could contend with Wildcat... regardless of the fact he is punching out Robots and Superhuman Aliens in comics.

:P

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#110  Edited By Wolverine008
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Batman because of 7 years of ninja training.

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