@dccomicsrule2011: you've done a very good job debating for Superman Prime thus far, i hope you dont mind me poking my head in the debate.
Nah I don't mind poke away lol.
Thank you, people generally dont mind if i butt into their debate if they are clearly losing, your case is quite the opposite so i felt obliged to ask :) Also hey dont let me stop ya, you can still continue your replies to Issac, if a miss anything in it.
And he clearly shows everything was destroyed, the scan before that shows the blast engulfing the galaxy, the universe 52 after that was pronounced destroyed, the Monitor then loses his job becomes a thrall of the Darkseid during the final crisis story arc and finally revolves around it.
Sky remains, so what? The stars, the planets everything was said to be destroyed. The sky remained when Korvac was the one who destroyed the universe, in an alternate timeline using the Ultimate Nullifier as well. The Monitor explicitly says the only thing that remained is the planet and the plant and thats it. So again, you are nitpicking.
If the stars an planets were gone - there wouldn't be much light would there? Much less liquid water or clouds. The Korvac didn't quite destroy the universe did he? When we're talking about destroying the universe - it's a little more than just a massive explosion - the universe can still very much be the universe without any matter in it - it's a miracle this universe has anything in it really.
It's hilarious how a couple of ray guns a bunch of old farmers zap prime with do more damage to his attire than the supposed universe buster he tanked did.
It was never explained what or how Mxy was trapped. All we see in Countdown to Final Crisis 26 is Mxy hanging by a rope, being tortured by Prime who says he's used Zatanna Prime by threatening her. Also the on in the thread is superMAN prime which is as you put it, bumped up on a power on Oan juice and thats the one i use. So you are saying when he says it tickles, its hurting him? Thats more likely him just being a douche, its not like it has EVER harmed prime, not like he has been KOed despite having faced many magic users so yeah not see the point here.
I thought the lack of ability to use his power to leave - more or less defined why he was trapped. You have for one - Zatana muttering a spell that apparently prevented Mxy from using his powers (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/36536/1592682-prime6_super.jpg). Then you have Mxy stating how "I'm too punch-drunk to summon magic." (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/1911241-1416514_primeisweak2_super.jpg). They more or less redefined how Mxy's powers even work just so Prime could trash him.
No I'm saying he clearly isn't immune to said magic if he still feels that low end magic when used against him. Otherwise he'd be just as immune as Superman is immune to normal bullets.
No i am questioning Thor's ability to hit Quicksilver, in a battle, with his hammer. Even throw his hammer to his chest as you put it , instead of using his attacks. Given his record in throwing hammer in a fight, which has been blocked by Magneto, block by Loki, dodged by Hulk, grabbed by Ghost Rider, stopped by Thanos in 3 occasions i dont see how he can throw anything at Quicksilver that he cant dodge.
Why didn't he throw it at Wolverine. It must mean Wolverine is too fast for Mjolnir to tag him. Why didn't he throw it at Nul? Clearly it must mean Nul is too fast to for Mjolnir to tag him. Though he threw it at the Silver Surfer about half a dozen different times and hit hit him each time during their little conflicts in say Mighty Thor - so clearly the Hulk, Quick Silver and Wolverine are faster than the Silver Surfer. Not to mention Thor's own fist exceeding the speed of Mjolnir because he punched the Sentry off panel rather than toss his hammer at him.
Honestly Thor's chucked the thing faster than Spiderman could react to - namely why Spiderman found himself being hurled into orbit before he could let go of his own webbing. Mjolnir's equal - Stormbreaker - hurled itself around a planet three times in the same panel before plowing into Stardust. I feel as if the idea that Quick Silver is beyond the hammer's tossing speed as painfully silly.
This argument where Mjolnir is being thrown at the same speed or with the same force has quite a number of scans that say otherwise.
Namely when Thor throws it to drop dozens of gunmen - yet apparently that same toss wouldn't be able to hit the Hulk.
Ghost Rider grabbed the hammer when it was returning to his hands decades ago - Woopty do. Clearly it wasn't returning to his hands at the speed it pounded a hole through Angrir or had the Surfer trying to keep up remarking how fast it was going. (Might as well mention the Hulk having grabbed it on return too).
How many of those times was Thanos sporting the IG perchance? Regardless Thanos is a lot more powerful than Thor is - even at half his power.
Yeah and Thor would simply destroy a building that was filled with people, not seeing how that works. The idea that he has never thrown the hammer , in a quantifiable manner in a fight, and the fact that much slower people than Quicksilver had dodged or blocked the hammer, i see no reason why to believe anything to the contrary, unless you can site me a issue when he has dont so in a fight.
They were right by a window - clearly Thor could have leveled the room without endangering anyone in said castle. I'm not even sure why this is separate from your other comment.
The point of the hammer was, whosoever hold the hammer , if he be worthy, should have the power of THOR. They powers are outright comparable and has always been so.
Yeah that totally helped Masterson not have his rear handed to him fight Thor himself in Asgard. Writers literally had Masterson require the possession of Mjolnir to even compete with Thor - that's how different these two are on panel. Same for Captain America who clearly wasn't pulling many tricks despite possessing that hammer on panel outside gaining the strength to fight Sin one on one.
Mongoose is PIS yes it happened twice in his own solo issue, with is both times he has faced Mongoose.
Yet apparently with all of Thor's powers he couldn't do anything Mongoose right. Just too fast for a thunder god that can that with a twirl can send him packing in a tornado.
Yet it is backed by his recent showings with Wolverine. I see no reason to believe why you could call that showing PIS without anything to prove it to the contrary.Wolverine blitz thor in the sense, he was getting the hits on him while thor couldnt and he outright admitted Wolverine is Faster, than had to resort to a lightning attack.
Recent showings? You mean a three+ year old comic that is titled "Wolverine vs Thor" that consists of a delusional Wolverine overwhelming Thor. Quite literally appearing again from the sky to attack him, without burning a hair on head (despite melting down the street around him) with lightning. Literally Thor dropped Daken from quite a distance and essentially flash fried him with a single generic bolt of lightning. Wolverine with any measure of common sense should never give Thor that kind of fight.
Quicksilver's showing is pretty straight forward, the showing being question is him getting blitz by beings a lot less faster than Quicksilver. And that scans was addressed because people often put that to show here Mongoose is PIS because he fought quicksilver who's faster. Quicksilver is of course many times faster than Mongoose, but none of his showings against Quicksilver contradicts him getting blitz.
This is a beyond silly argument to read.
Nope, thats EXACTLY what you said.
Don't take me out of context: This is what I was responding to.
My counter argument was that Thor's shockwaves would be tp much for BA and Ca to Hold and Prime could take some hits from Thor's hammer since he resisted magical transmution from a being who could transmute on a planitery scale I don't know how it doesn't make sense
If Thor is hitting that hard - Prime might already be out cold. He's not that durable against physical damage -
That does not translate into: Prime is not that durable to physical attacks. What I'm saying - if Thor is hitting that hard, that Black Adam and Captain Marvel can't even hold onto Prime - Prime will be already out cold. If you take me out of context again - consider this argument over. I'm not going to sit here and tolerate it.
And based on what can Captain Marvel and Black Adam hold him down when Superman, Mon El and Stargirl failed? Any reasonable basis? And if you are confused, the character is called Superboy Prime, when he absorbed the OAN energy his body bulked up, he looked more matured and called himself Superman Prime. Superman Prime IS the "him on OAN roids", his normal showing is called SuperBOY Prime.
The fact two Supermen already did restrain him and hurl him through space - even through a red giant. The fact Superboy was able to brace himself to hold Prime back or Donna Troy could stop him from making a run for it don't help either. He'll the Flashes were able to hold him down and drag him into the Speedforce in one of his defining losses. Hell even in the showing you're referencing they're holding him back long enough to undress him.
He's been interchangeably been called both Superman Prime and Superboy Prime. There's no confusion in what I'm saying in that regard.
Have you ever seen a Kryptonian who's powerless? All Kryptonians are on the same power level, its just the experience and age that increases or decreases the power. This was clearly explained in Superman: The World Of New Krypton, not sure if you are aware of that. This explains why Superman is stronger than supergirl, age, experience and more exposure to solar radiation etc. The only exception to this rule is Prime universe, which was modelled based on Pre-Crisis era, so they are bit more powerful. Also in the same scan you seem him going right through the planet core without a single scratch, or are you going to say the planet is featless too?
I didn't say he was powerless - I pointed out you're using feat-less characters and running off the idea that they would hold a candle to the real deals. Which given their limited showings against Prime - they don't in the slightest.
Bill has slammed people through planets too without a scratch or hell being slammed backwards through he didn't seem phased till tanking a planet buster point blank. Superman has split moons in half just because of the frustration of having Luthor elected President. You act like this is a big deal in the DCU - when it really isn't. If you want to argue planet densities / size, I don't think that is necessary.
The question being asked was his durability against physical force, what other example can i give apart from him fighting a guy who's leagues and above anyone else in this fight. Basing on his feats in Armageddon 2001 he's one shotted Superman level character with absolute ease, and yet Prime as just fine. Littered with PIS, apart from what you think he should be, could you prove that? Oh well so now you are using his lowest showings, fair enough.
Yet ION here stalemated with someone that can't one shot Superman level characters - Prime. It isn't hard to spot bad writing and PIS in Prime's carrier. You've got him escaping the Speedforce - somehow building a solar suit out of rocks, randomly finding himself in a situation where he's surrounded by his opponent's weakness, suddenly gaining the ability to absorb OAN energy, Mxy in his presence turns into someone Zatanna can bind with her magic, Monarch turns into a brawler, him being thrusted into an alternate future / universe and hell he depowered himself by punching himself! He can't even stand up to his own PIS in a fight. Then you have putting on the Black Lantern ring and seeing all colors of the rainbow (probably the only book in recent memory where the character isn't a steaming pile of poo - by the time Titan's roll around he loses all that character developement).
Realistic based on you. I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level. Or his recent showings which includes: 1. Losing to Tunitax (Thor : The Deviant Saga 03) 2. Getting One shotted by Cyclops (AvX) 3. Losing outright with Emma (AvX versus) 4. Getting knocked by Rachel, who easily blocked his hammer strike (AvX) I wonder who's showing looks better?
So PF enhanced Emma and PF Cyclopse are street levelers? Cyclops's visor blasts have been hyped by Reed Richards to be at FTL speeds too. But yeah I'm glad predominantly his low showings consist of almost 4/5 AvX. Haven't read Deviant Saga so I haven't a clue who that even is.
Though I think Prime's lowest showing is him depowering himself. Him getting beat by the titans - you after Superboy himself has gone up against him (even scaring his chest with heat vision), being hurt Krypto, Superman, Martian Manhunter, etc. It isn't surprising that the Titans dropped him - sorry that's the truth of the matter.
And why would you argue for non-guardian amped Prime in a battle forum that has SuperMAN prime in it?? Any reason? Thats the name written in comics, thats the name in his bio , thats the name in his comicvine page, i dont see what you are arguing here?You do realize that lead poisons his body but ION protects him, else he would have died outright.On Final Crisis- Legion of 3 Earth, we see Yat in 100 in the future, old as hell, and explaining the same thing.
Because the names can be used interchangeably for said character. And that's why I'm arguing with - unless the OP tells me we're talking about him when he's sporting the OAN energy - which was just Superboy Prime having absorbed energy for a time.
I'm aware ION kept Yat alive - but it's clear the fight's dynamics changed dramatically when Prime just happened to bring Yat to the place that would weaken him - namely why he slammed that nuclear rod through him - shields and all.
@isaac_clarke: I'm not sure why you are saying that SMP is not that much stronger than a regular Superman, SBP without the Oan juice, maybe but still no. Hell, even without the juice he was easily overpowering the JLA, GLC and a host of Kryptonions. SMP amped up on Oan juice is a whole different story. He one shot killed earth 15 superman then one shotted that earths Wonderwoman, the entire JLA (watchtower included) one shot that Martian manhunter, then one shot the Earth. That was just one of the many Earth's he wrecked. Monarch was using multiple Supermen as throw away physical punching bags for entertainment and could have killed any of them in an instant and SMP was physically stronger than monarch. In every outing he was stated to be immune to magic, the writers were quite clear on that subject, if they meant "highly resistant" they would have written that instead of saying straight out he was immune to magic on multiple occasions. There are so many showings that state the exact opposite to the claim your trying to make about his strength and his magic resistance. SMP one shot kills Kryptonions, Martians, Amazons, almost anything that he has come across and he is straight up immune to magic to boot, plain and simple. In addition, it was confirmed in final crisis #1 and #7 on panel the universe was destroyed, I know you really don't care for the art work but I've shown you the confirmation scans from final crisis, gave you issue numbers, writers names etc and you conceded to it. I really can't understand why you are pretending that discussion never happened now and revert back to showing the botched drawing from countdown. I know you hate the character but common man...
If the stars an planets were gone - there wouldn't be much light would there? Much less liquid water or clouds. The Korvac didn't quite destroy the universe did he? When we're talking about destroying the universe - it's a little more than just a massive explosion - the universe can still very much be the universe without any matter in it - it's a miracle this universe has anything in it really.
It's hilarious how a couple of ray guns a bunch of old farmers zap prime with do more damage to his attire than the supposed universe buster he tanked did.
I think you basing in on what you have seen in the scans thus far. In both Final Crisis 1 and Final Crisis 6 the universe is declared by the monitor to have been destroyed namely why Bob loses his job and becomes a pun of Darkseid.
Also Korvac, from alternate universe indeed destroy the entire universe (killed eternity), but it happened in a What If issue.
Its not hilarious, it tends to happen a lot. Thor has been outright KOed by guns at times, and then has tanked stuffs like celestial blast. Its just a part of character.
I thought the lack of ability to use his power to leave - more or less defined why he was trapped. You have for one - Zatana muttering a spell that apparently prevented Mxy from using his powers (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/36536/1592682-prime6_super.jpg). Then you have Mxy stating how "I'm too punch-drunk to summon magic." (http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/91051/1911241-1416514_primeisweak2_super.jpg). They more or less redefined how Mxy's powers even work just so Prime could trash him.
No I'm saying he clearly isn't immune to said magic if he still feels that low end magic when used against him. Otherwise he'd be just as immune as Superman is immune to normal bullets.
Firstly no it doesnt, if someone say oh it tickels when hit my a low end magic user (Black Adam) as well as a high end magic user (Mordu) and he says the same thing to both, it tickles means he's being a d*ck rather than it actually hurting you.
About Zatanna, when did i disagree? I said how Mxy got there has never been explained, and yes it has never been explained. Zatanna was helping Prime because she was downright terrified of prime, had Prime been vulnerable to magic wouldnt she just zap prime rather than Mxy.
He has been constantly stated to be immune to magic, has feats to prove it, sorry but i am not seeing much a case from your side apart from you nitpicking few arguments with no basis thus far.
Why didn't he throw it at Wolverine. It must mean Wolverine is too fast for Mjolnir to tag him. Why didn't he throw it at Nul? Clearly it must mean Nul is too fast to for Mjolnir to tag him. Though he threw it at the Silver Surfer about half a dozen different times and hit hit him each time during their little conflicts in say Mighty Thor - so clearly the Hulk, Quick Silver and Wolverine are faster than the Silver Surfer. Not to mention Thor's own fist exceeding the speed of Mjolnir because he punched the Sentry off panel rather than toss his hammer at him.
Honestly Thor's chucked the thing faster than Spiderman could react to - namely why Spiderman found himself being hurled into orbit before he could let go of his own webbing. Mjolnir's equal - Stormbreaker - hurled itself around a planet three times in the same panel before plowing into Stardust. I feel as if the idea that Quick Silver is beyond the hammer's tossing speed as painfully silly.
This argument where Mjolnir is being thrown at the same speed or with the same force has quite a number of scans that say otherwise.
Namely when Thor throws it to drop dozens of gunmen - yet apparently that same toss wouldn't be able to hit the Hulk.
Ghost Rider grabbed the hammer when it was returning to his hands decades ago - Woopty do. Clearly it wasn't returning to his hands at the speed it pounded a hole through Angrir or had the Surfer trying to keep up remarking how fast it was going. (Might as well mention the Hulk having grabbed it on return too).
How many of those times was Thanos sporting the IG perchance? Regardless Thanos is a lot more powerful than Thor is - even at half his power.
Its perfectly in his character not to throw hammer at whoever he fights. And i asked you a proof of where hammer has traveled at a defined speed in a battle which you haven't provided yet.
Yeah and Silver Surfer has been tagged by Hulk, Abomination, Spiderman consistently so all this says is Thor can throw his hammer as fast as hulk/ abomination/ spiderman throw a punch, i.e. not very fast.
What incident of Spider-man and Thing are you talking about, scans please?
To the best of my knowledge BRB and Stardust has only fought twice, with BRB winning both times. One during Godhunter saga and the other during Stormbreaker: The Saga of BRB and i dont remember it hurling itself around a planet three times, scans please?
You are twisting my argument, my argument is unless he has done so in a fight at a given speed, its downright uncharacteristic to assume he can do so in a fight.
Thanos had IG in 1 encounter, and blocked it twice. Also nothing in IG increases your reaction time, nor does Thanos being stronger than Thor doesnt anything in regards to him being able to outright stop it.
They were right by a window - clearly Thor could have leveled the room without endangering anyone in said castle. I'm not even sure why this is separate from your other comment.
One that would be out of character, second thats exactly what an AOE attack is, much like the attack he used.
Yeah that totally helped Masterson not have his rear handed to him fight Thor himself in Asgard. Writers literally had Masterson require the possession of Mjolnir to even compete with Thor - that's how different these two are on panel. Same for Captain America who clearly wasn't pulling many tricks despite possessing that hammer on panel outside gaining the strength to fight Sin one on one.
Thats not fair;
1. They were equally matched.
2. He came with a hammer , yes, tossed it at Thor who then had the hammer, and the fight didnt change
3. He needed the hammer because without the hammer he turns back to Eric in 60 seconds. Also the fight sure as hell was not one sided and he did not lose the fight either.
He's the fight, it was never one sided.
Gallery
Recent showings? You mean a three+ year old comic that is titled "Wolverine vs Thor" that consists of a delusional Wolverine overwhelming Thor. Quite literally appearing again from the sky to attack him, without burning a hair on head (despite melting down the street around him) with lightning. Literally Thor dropped Daken from quite a distance and essentially flash fried him with a single generic bolt of lightning. Wolverine with any measure of common sense should never give Thor that kind of fight.
The showing was 4 and half years ago, but for a character who has a 60 year career its still considered a recent showing.
Thor vs Wolverine or Thor vs Draken, neither has anything to suggest Thor has fast enough reaction time, thats just how it is. Even in the same thread pretty much everyone agreed Thor reacts slower than Spiderman, so its rather consistent, most people even accept that, i do not understand why you choose not to accept.
Quicksilver's showing is pretty straight forward, the showing being question is him getting blitz by beings a lot less faster than Quicksilver. And that scans was addressed because people often put that to show here Mongoose is PIS because he fought quicksilver who's faster. Quicksilver is of course many times faster than Mongoose, but none of his showings against Quicksilver contradicts him getting blitz.
This is a beyond silly argument to read.
IT is not silly at all ,its a fact. He got blitz twice by Mongoose, like it or not, its cannon and it happened in his own solo issue. So call it silly, call it whatever , but it happened, and thats both time Mongoose and Thor have fought.
Don't take me out of context: This is what I was responding to.
If Thor is hitting that hard - Prime might already be out cold. He's not that durable against physical damage -
That does not translate into: Prime is not that durable to physical attacks. What I'm saying - if Thor is hitting that hard, that Black Adam and Captain Marvel can't even hold onto Prime - Prime will be already out cold. If you take me out of context again - consider this argument over. I'm not going to sit here and tolerate it.
I am not taking you out of context. Thor is hitting "that hard" , how hard? He is yet to even bust a planet, the best he has done is bust a planetoid as warrior madness and here we clearly have Superman prime going right through a planet busting it utterly yet he's not "that" durable, sound silly to me.
The fact two Supermen already did restrain him and hurl him through space - even through a red giant. The fact Superboy was able to brace himself to hold Prime back or Donna Troy could stop him from making a run for it don't help either. He'll the Flashes were able to hold him down and drag him into the Speedforce in one of his defining losses. Hell even in the showing you're referencing they're holding him back long enough to undress him.
There is context involved, you cant just outright ignore the context.
Gallery
1.
He was fighting JLA
He got punched by flash he is downright scared of.
He just went through a wall of 300 miles of willpowers.
Fought and killed 40 GLs
Was clearly just sitting there and mocking 2 two superman thinking they were going to use the kryptonite to hurt him.
Proximity to red sun weakining him.
Flash incident, not sure if you knew but Prime has flash phobia, and has been downright terrified of Flash in a fight. Flash is more or less his Kryptonite.
He's been interchangeably been called both Superman Prime and Superboy Prime. There's no confusion in what I'm saying in that regard.
No its really not. Could you at the very least show me one scan, in a bio, comics or even in comicvine wiki where superboy prime has ever been called Superman Prime unless with the said OA amped?
At least 1 example please.
Realistic based on you. I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level. Or his recent showings which includes: 1. Losing to Tunitax (Thor : The Deviant Saga 03) 2. Getting One shotted by Cyclops (AvX) 3. Losing outright with Emma (AvX versus) 4. Getting knocked by Rachel, who easily blocked his hammer strike (AvX) I wonder who's showing looks better?
So PF enhanced Emma and PF Cyclopse are street levelers? Cyclops's visor blasts have been hyped by Reed Richards to be at FTL speeds too. But yeah I'm glad predominantly his low showings consist of almost 4/5 AvX. Haven't read Deviant Saga so I haven't a clue who that even is.
Though I think Prime's lowest showing is him depowering himself. Him getting beat by the titans - you after Superboy himself has gone up against him (even scaring his chest with heat vision), being hurt Krypto, Superman, Martian Manhunter, etc. It isn't surprising that the Titans dropped him - sorry that's the truth of the matter.
Ok lets see, where did i EVER called either Emma or Cyclopse street level? You said you were using current and consistent showing for prime, so i am using current and consistent showing from Thor, and as it stands.
How is him depowering himself a low showings. Superboy went against him and lost, if you are going to compare that, Titans together couldnt stop him, and thats a 30 hero group so not. Krypto is a kryptonian dog, him hurting Superboy prime is as defining showing as Thor being one shotted by guns in 2 encounters is. Martian Manhunter, someone who has soloed JLA 3 times being able to beat him is a bad showing, specially given that he did so by turning intangible and using his telepathy attack, sorry but not see any sort of substance from your argument thus far.
Because the names can be used interchangeably for said character. And that's why I'm arguing with - unless the OP tells me we're talking about him when he's sporting the OAN energy - which was just Superboy Prime having absorbed energy for a time.
Give me one example when Superboy Prime where he has ever been called SupermanPrime , ever, without the OAN amp and we can talk :)
I'm aware ION kept Yat alive - but it's clear the fight's dynamics changed dramatically when Prime just happened to bring Yat to the place that would weaken him - namely why he slammed that nuclear rod through him - shields and all.
OR Prime was just simply strong enough to beat him up. Lead poising kills Daxamites in less than an hr, thats why Superman had to outright BFR Mon el after being poisoned.
Sorry apart from hate for Prime, and love for Thor and a clear bias, not see any substantive argument , other than you nitpicking or lowballing thus far.
I think you basing in on what you have seen in the scans thus far. In both Final Crisis 1 and Final Crisis 6 the universe is declared by the monitor to have been destroyed namely why Bob loses his job and becomes a pun of Darkseid.
Also Korvac, from alternate universe indeed destroy the entire universe (killed eternity), but it happened in a What If issue.
But that's the thing - if we're talking about a universe having been destroyed - there would be nothing at all. Instead we've got something and the Monitor is strolling around on it and apparently enough light to keep it visible - to heat those oceans and have water evaporate. Their especially wouldn't be a plant sprouting. From what I understand - you said that wasn't the case because there was something still of the universe, What If or not - in order to destroy the universe you've have to destroy everything from space / time / atoms up.
Its not hilarious, it tends to happen a lot. Thor has been outright KOed by guns at times, and then has tanked stuffs like celestial blast. Its just a part of character.
I think you might have missed the point. I was referring to the fact Prime supposedly tanked a universe buster that didn't do any damage to his attire - yet some ray guns blow most of his cloths off. Seems a bit inconsistent right? I'm not talking about being hurt - I'm talking about the clothe's hes sporting.
Firstly no it doesnt, if someone say oh it tickels when hit my a low end magic user (Black Adam) as well as a high end magic user (Mordu) and he says the same thing to both, it tickles means he's being a d*ck rather than it actually hurting you. About Zatanna, when did i disagree? I said how Mxy got there has never been explained, and yes it has never been explained. Zatanna was helping Prime because she was downright terrified of prime, had Prime been vulnerable to magic wouldnt she just zap prime rather than Mxy.
I wouldn't even call Black Adam a magic user - we're talking a being magically empowered by Gods; when Mordru throw a high-level magic attack at Prime? Would those pellets have busted the universe on impact with the ground? A galaxy? A side walk? You're basically making this assumption that Prime simply says it to be a jerk - rather than simply an admission of feeling that magical attack.
There is a page dedicated to Prime simply swooping into the 5th dimension and grabbing Mxy - what stopped Mxy from simply teleporting back before being neutered was PIS.
He has been constantly stated to be immune to magic, has feats to prove it, sorry but i am not seeing much a case from your side apart from you nitpicking few arguments with no basis thus far.
Then why do people not post scans that say he's immune to magic if it's so constantly stated? His feats are subpar - if you expect to believe he can stroll into Shuma-Gorath's realm and be immune to Shuma's "magic" I'm going to have to see something a bit more substantial than the laughable showings constantly tossed around for Prime in that magic immunity argument.
Its perfectly in his character not to throw hammer at whoever he fights. And i asked you a proof of where hammer has traveled at a defined speed in a battle which you haven't provided yet.
And now it's fine he doesn't throw his hammer? The hammer doesn't fly at defined speeds because Thor isn't chucking it at a set speed and more or less it goes as fast as Thor needs it to.
Yeah and Silver Surfer has been tagged by Hulk, Abomination, Spiderman consistently so all this says is Thor can throw his hammer as fast as hulk/ abomination/ spiderman throw a punch, i.e. not very fast.
And the Surfer has also blitzed the Hulk on foot without his power cosmic knocking his warbound as well as him - into the air effortlessly after finishing a sentence. All while weakened. Might as well mention She-Hulk punching him too - and him thinking they bumped into each other. Yes the Hulk can tag a Silver Surfer who isn't moving and talking to him almost every time he does hit him as far as I can remember. I'd imagine Abom situation was much the same - him getting tagged by folks he sees as unable to hurt him physically isn't a big deal.
Spiderman is Herald+ level. The guy took down Firelord in the black suit on panel, therefore Fire Lord < Spiderman. Hell he almost KOed Masterson Thor using his speed against him in a fight - and we all know Masterson Thor is = to Thor!
Spiderman vs Thor:
Gallery
Now if Spiderman was delusional, thinking Thor was Venom or Sabretooth - he would have performed much better against Thor and out speed him.
What incident of Spider-man and Thing are you talking about, scans please?
I referred to Angrir - not the Thing. Thor's physically turned him to rubble before - but that's a completely different showing. Now think back to when Thor called back his hammer and it punched a hole through Angrir's chest - that's what I'm referring to.
To the best of my knowledge BRB and Stardust has only fought twice, with BRB winning both times. One during Godhunter saga and the other during Stormbreaker: The Saga of BRB and i dont remember it hurling itself around a planet three times, scans please?
I think the number was at four fights. Galactus ended one of them. Bill slammed stardust through a planet in another. Stardustot enhanced herself for another fight and Bill has slammed her to the planet below and proceed to speed down to smash her while she was on the ground.
Gallery
More or less Bill dominates Stardust in a lot of these fights. With the exception of her change of color to blue.
You are twisting my argument, my argument is unless he has done so in a fight at a given speed, its downright uncharacteristic to assume he can do so in a fight.
The funny thing about this fight - I'm not even bothering to make argument for him out speeding Prime (despite arguably even having better speed showings) but simply have BA and CM grab Prime and have Thor pound his face in.
Thanos had IG in 1 encounter, and blocked it twice. Also nothing in IG increases your reaction time, nor does Thanos being stronger than Thor doesnt anything in regards to him being able to outright stop it.
Becoming the 3rd strongest being in all of creation - with outright omniscience requires reaction time? Earlier Thanos was gloating how he is everywhere, yet no where and how time as well has just as little meaning to him. If you're vastly more powerful than your opponent - you stopping their their most powerful weapon isn't much of a shock.
One that would be out of character, second thats exactly what an AOE attack is, much like the attack he used.
Funny thing about the attack: Thor more or less appears dead-infront of Quicksilver from across the room and slams hims straight into the air.
Out of character for Thor to flash fry an opponent? Thor's been killing folks left and right these days - some of them he actually likes. The fact he's putting so much effort to not seriously harm him seems a bit out of character.
Thats not fair; 1. They were equally matched. 2. He came with a hammer , yes, tossed it at Thor who then had the hammer, and the fight didnt change 3. He needed the hammer because without the hammer he turns back to Eric in 60 seconds. Also the fight sure as hell was not one sided and he did not lose the fight either. He's the fight, it was never one sided.
Equally matched? You're missing a few pages that add a bit more context:
Gallery
Once Thor realized Masterson doesn't have friendly intentions he starts trying to reason with him as he easily dodges Eric's assault.
"Now that I've blown the element of surprise Thor's weaving and dodging like a pro"
"Please Eric... I have no wish to harm you."
"I assume he's got a strength advantage, but I'm the one who's holding the enchanted hammer! - Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be doing me much good. I can't seem to land a blow on him!"
Thor more or less turns into Spiderman and runs circles around Eric as he tries to reason with him. It's not until he think's Sif has kicked the bucket that he wants to actually fight him. Then comes your scans that doesn't depict it as much of an equal fight - Eric scores one hit and that's with Mjolnir, otherwise Thor is out performing him hand to hand and stopping him mid attack.
If Mjolnir wasn't present Eric wouldn't have been able to do much to Thor in a fight. Thor's simply his superior in every way.
The showing was 4 and half years ago, but for a character who has a 60 year career its still considered a recent showing. Thor vs Wolverine or Thor vs Draken, neither has anything to suggest Thor has fast enough reaction time, thats just how it is. Even in the same thread pretty much everyone agreed Thor reacts slower than Spiderman, so its rather consistent, most people even accept that, i do not understand why you choose not to accept.
I don't consider it recent - despite how quick everyone is to run to it to define the character's speed.
True, one showing Thor one shots the Sentry after he was bullrushed - the other Thor has issues hitting Wolverine. Makes sense if you don't think about it. A bit of lightning turns Daken into a fried piece of meat - a bit of lightning against Wolverine simply wakes him up from thinking Thor is Sabretooth. If almost everyone agrees on it, it makes it true? That logic isn't at all contradictory to reality.
I can accept Thor can one shot Wolverine clapping his hands, I can accept he can easily block just about anything when requires or hit it with a hammer toss. Him being unable to defend himself against Wolverine and splitting a street in half trying to hit him isn't at all consistent with the character's established ability.
People trying to justify this horrid piece of writing as a defining showing of Thor's speed as apparently much slower than the Hulk's is tiresome.
IT is not silly at all ,its a fact. He got blitz twice by Mongoose, like it or not, its cannon and it happened in his own solo issue. So call it silly, call it whatever , but it happened, and thats both time Mongoose and Thor have fought.
How many things in comics are completely canon that you adamantly found idiotic, inconsistent and just bad writing overall? Because I could think of a number of showings and I generally don't take them seriously because it would be dumb to.
I am not taking you out of context. Thor is hitting "that hard" , how hard? He is yet to even bust a planet, the best he has done is bust a planetoid as warrior madness and here we clearly have Superman prime going right through a planet busting it utterly yet he's not "that"durable, sound silly to me.
Then you don't quite understand what I was saying. If Thor is hitting hard enough for Black Adam and Captain Marvel to lose their grip on Prime - Prime is likely already out cold in that scenario and that is was I'm referring to: DC's comment that Thor will be hitting so hard both of them won't be able to hold Prime down.
The fact two Supermen already did restrain him and hurl him through space - even through a red giant. The fact Superboy was able to brace himself to hold Prime back or Donna Troy could stop him from making a run for it don't help either. He'll the Flashes were able to hold him down and drag him into the Speedforce in one of his defining losses. Hell even in the showing you're referencing they're holding him back long enough to undress him.
There is context involved, you cant just outright ignore the context.
Oh yeah - said Supermen were weakened by said kryptonite and still could Prime down and tank his blows. Is that the context I'm missing? Literally surrounded by Kryptonite Superman dropped Prime to boot.
He was fighting JLA
What does that have to do with being restrained by two Supermen? Did they soften up Prime's muscles?
He got punched by flash he is downright scared of.
He just went through a wall of 300 miles of willpowers.
Your point?
Fought and killed 40 GLs
Red shirt lanterns being killed by Superboy Prime - what again does this have to do with Superman level characters restraining him and cruising him through space?
Was clearly just sitting there and mocking 2 two superman thinking they were going to use the kryptonite to hurt him.
I guess the Kryptonite has no effect on the latter Supermen.
Proximity to red sun weakining him.
That was only after said star burned away his plot armor. In the grandest sense Superman surrounded by Kryptonite and having far longer exposure to said red giant seems to kick Prime to the curb pretty well.
Flash incident, not sure if you knew but Prime has flash phobia, and has been downright terrified of Flash in a fight. Flash is more or less his Kryptonite.
So when Prime runs into the Flashes all his superhuman stats go out the window and they can physically restrain him effortlessly?
No its really not. Could you at the very least show me one scan, in a bio, comics or even in comicvine wiki where superboy prime has ever been called Superman Prime unless with the said OA amped?At least 1 example please.
Google Superman Prime - see what results hit first. Comicvine page used to - as far as memory serves - continued to call him Superman Prime long after he lost the Oan Juice. Did anyone even call him Superman Prime on panel outside himself?
Realistic based on you. I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level. Or his recent showings which includes: 1. Losing to Tunitax (Thor : The Deviant Saga 03) 2. Getting One shotted by Cyclops (AvX) 3. Losing outright with Emma (AvX versus) 4. Getting knocked by Rachel, who easily blocked his hammer strike (AvX) I wonder who's showing looks better?
So PF enhanced Emma and PF Cyclopse are street levelers? Cyclops's visor blasts have been hyped by Reed Richards to be at FTL speeds too. But yeah I'm glad predominantly his low showings consist of almost 4/5 AvX. Haven't read Deviant Saga so I haven't a clue who that even is.
Though I think Prime's lowest showing is him depowering himself. Him getting beat by the titans - you after Superboy himself has gone up against him (even scaring his chest with heat vision), being hurt Krypto, Superman, Martian Manhunter, etc. It isn't surprising that the Titans dropped him - sorry that's the truth of the matter.
Ok lets see, where did i EVER called either Emma or Cyclopse street level? You said you were using current and consistent showing for prime, so i am using current and consistent showing from Thor, and as it stands. How is him depowering himself a low showings. Superboy went against him and lost, if you are going to compare that, Titans together couldnt stop him, and thats a 30 hero group so not. Krypto is a kryptonian dog, him hurting Superboy prime is as defining showing as Thor being one shotted by guns in 2 encounters is. Martian Manhunter, someone who has soloed JLA 3 times being able to beat him is a bad showing, specially given that he did so by turning intangible and using his telepathy attack, sorry but not see any sort of substance from your argument thus far.
The opening of your response was " I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level. Or his recent showings which includes:" - maybe I'm just reading it wrong.
How is depowering himself not a low showing? It's ridiculous - makes him look like a moron and punching your future counterpart shouldn't remove all your powers. Krypto, Superman, Martian Manhunter and hell Superboy have all been able to hurt Prime. It's pretty consistent he isn't this invulnerable monstrosity to anyone in that strength range - especially to Krypto's bite. And the number of hits that KOed him - weren't thirty teen titans.
Then you aren't looking hard enough and clearly not paying much intention to the entire context of my responses.
Give me one example when Superboy Prime where he has ever been called Superman Prime , ever, without the OAN amp and we can talk :)
OR Prime was just simply strong enough to beat him up. Lead poising kills Daxamites in less than an hr, thats why Superman had to outright BFR Mon el after being poisoned. Sorry apart from hate for Prime, and love for Thor and a clear bias, not see any substantive argument , other than you nitpicking or lowballing thus far.
One wonders if you read the scans you post.
The fight turns one sided when Yat get surrounded by his own weakness. Hell as I recall this permanently weakened him to boot. Prime's written to be hated - they turned him into an internet troll after losing much of his power - the only decent character development he's seen was in Blackest Knight and they erased it to return him to his idiotic old self.
Love for Thor? Here's the thing champ - you're quick to randomly latch onto this argument of trying to default Thor's speed when I didn't think of arguing he would use it here. Mainly because of how people want to endlessly want to argue it. Instead I opted out for the most reasonable conclusion, given two members of Thor's team can't hurt Prime physically because of plot protection - they can at least hold him down and Thor beat him down. I wasn't arguing Thor would solo Superboy Prime; but yeah try to de-legitimize what I'm saying by claiming I'm arguing for some love of Thor - rather than actually seeing how this team could win in the most reasonable fashion against someone that is arguably slower than Captain Marvel or Black Adam even are(Prime's speed showings are simply atrocious) .
Honestly if you're going to pull the fanboy card - make sure you don't over hype the hell out of the character you're debating.
But that's the thing - if we're talking about a universe having been destroyed - there would be nothing at all. Instead we've got something and the Monitor is strolling around on it and apparently enough light to keep it visible - to heat those oceans and have water evaporate. Their especially wouldn't be a plant sprouting. From what I understand - you said that wasn't the case because there was something still of the universe, What If or not - in order to destroy the universe you've have to destroy everything from space / time / atoms up.
I still dont understand what you are talking about? Why does time/ Space has to be destoyed, the universe was destroyed as in planets, stars were apart from one lone planet. The two issue in final crisis states the universe to have been "destroyed", so i am more inclined to accept what is written on panel in more than one occasion rather than what you think constitutions of a universal destruction and what doesnt.
I think you might have missed the point. I was referring to the fact Prime supposedly tanked a universe buster that didn't do any damage to his attire - yet some ray guns blow most of his cloths off. Seems a bit inconsistent right? I'm not talking about being hurt - I'm talking about the clothe's hes sporting.
I did get what you meant, what i am however saying is that happens in comics all the time, dont see how thats even relevant here.
I wouldn't even call Black Adam a magic user - we're talking a being magically empowered by Gods; when Mordru throw a high-level magic attack at Prime? Would those pellets have busted the universe on impact with the ground? A galaxy? A side walk? You're basically making this assumption that Prime simply says it to be a jerk - rather than simply an admission of feeling that magical attack.
There is a page dedicated to Prime simply swooping into the 5th dimension and grabbing Mxy - what stopped Mxy from simply teleporting back before being neutered was PIS.
So a being who is powered by 7 gods, transforms only using a magic lightning and has one shotted superman using what he called "magical punches", which Captain Marvel , who has similar powers have also used to one shot Superman in two occasions are not magic users ?
Why would the pellet bust the universe at impact? When Odin was hitting Surfer with a blast (which at the very least had to be a continent busting attack since it one shotted him, as well as drax) did not side damage, same with his blast against Thanos. An incomplete cosmic cube being , Beyonder (Kismet), used up all her powers in a blast to hit Thanos which didnt even destroy a city in Thanos mini, a charged cosmic cubed was used to shoot at Thanos and it didnt even destroy anything around, omega-beam that has one shotted Superman and Superman level beings with ease doesnt destroy anything, so if you are going to use that to show oh the pallets are not powerful, you are gasping for straws.
Ok so lets buy into what you have, BA punches tickled him, modru's attacked tickled him , Kimnext attack tickled him, so Thor going all out with his punches tickles him, i guess we are in agreement then :)
The fact that Mxy for that issue, for whatever reason, was stated to be a Magic user, and all magic users so far have done is tickle him, and thats what was stopping Mxy.
Then why do people not post scans that say he's immune to magic if it's so constantly stated? His feats are subpar - if you expect to believe he can stroll into Shuma-Gorath's realm and be immune to Shuma's "magic" I'm going to have to see something a bit more substantial than the laughable showings constantly tossed around for Prime in that magic immunity argument.
Had the magical powers that Thor possessed by any way even remotely comparable to what Shuma-Gorath is spouting then i could entertain this. Also you can nitpick all you want, pretty much everyone in this thread agrees Prime is immune, so unless you have anything to back your point, you can believe whatever floats your boat. thats not going to change my view or anyone's view for that matters.
Nitpick all you want, for us and everyone else in the this, on panel evidence is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your whining.
And now it's fine he doesn't throw his hammer? The hammer doesn't fly at defined speeds because Thor isn't chucking it at a set speed and more or less it goes as fast as Thor needs it to.
Glad we agree on the first part. Any reason to believe Thor can hit is fast enough in a battle that Quicksilver cant dodge? Any evidence to back that , anything he has done it in a battle to support that theory? Coz i honestly dont believe any and i have virtually read every Thor issue.
And the Surfer has also blitzed the Hulk on foot without his power cosmic knocking his warbound as well as him - into the air effortlessly after finishing a sentence. All while weakened. Might as well mention She-Hulk punching him too - and him thinking they bumped into each other. Yes the Hulk can tag a Silver Surfer who isn't moving and talking to him almost every time he does hit him as far as I can remember. I'd imagine Abom situation was much the same - him getting tagged by folks he sees as unable to hurt him physically isn't a big deal.
Spiderman is Herald+ level. The guy took down Firelord in the black suit on panel, therefore Fire Lord < Spiderman. Hell he almost KOed Masterson Thor using his speed against him in a fight - and we all know Masterson Thor is = to Thor!
Spiderman vs Thor:
Gallery
Now if Spiderman was delusional, thinking Thor was Venom or Sabretooth - he would have performed much better against Thor and out speed him.
So you consider that a blitz, lets see what happened:
Gallery
So first scan, among other things Hulk says ".. surfer is my ", Surfer says "friend" and hit him. Where exactly did he blitz him? Coz if you are using this as a blitz, i have about 14 showing including Durok, Magog , Destroyer and Desak blitzing Thor.
So you are going to make assumption about Surfer vs Hulk and other without knowing what happened.
Lets look at his fight history
1st fight with Hulk
Gallery
The images on top looks a bit wonky, hopefully it will correct itself once i post because for some reason i even posted few scans from Surfer vs Thing (which is something i can use later if need be)
Second fight with Hulk
Gallery
A Third Fight with Silver Surfer
What were you saying again? Its consistent with Surfer's characters.
Thing has had no problems tagging him, neither did Spiderman, nor did Abomination, nor did Super Skrull.
As funny as Spiderman comment is I am inclined to agree because he is Marvel's most famous character has ridiculous high end feats.
Also what in the scan shows Thor reacting faster than Spiderman, spiderman tag his hammer, he hurled his hammer.
If you are going to use showing like that, the entire Thor history is on him fighting brutes , the only Thor villian that has any claim to superspeed would probably be Loki which is still ambigiuous apart from Marvel putting him at 7. Apart from that maybe Destroyer, rest have no superspeed so to think of and they are always doing pretty good against Thor, beaten him too.
I referred to Angrir - not the Thing. Thor's physically turned him to rubble before - but that's a completely different showing. Now think back to when Thor called back his hammer and it punched a hole through Angrir's chest - that's what I'm referring to.
And how does that show anything about speed. If we are going to use that as speed argument, Hulk punches are FLT too.
I think the number was at four fights. Galactus ended one of them. Bill slammed stardust through a planet in another. Stardustot enhanced herself for another fight and Bill has slammed her to the planet below and proceed to speed down to smash her while she was on the ground.
Gallery
More or less Bill dominates Stardust in a lot of these fights. With the exception of her change of color to blue.
Oh storm breaker, i did have this issue must have missed the scans.
Impressive showings, but sadly not of Thor.
The funny thing about this fight - I'm not even bothering to make argument for him out speeding Prime (despite arguably even having better speed showings) but simply have BA and CM grab Prime and have Thor pound his face in.
And when did i say you were using this for the battle. I am simply arguing i have seen nothing to suggest Thor could have hit Quicksilver with the hammer in the fight. I have never even once brought speedblitz in the argument before you started using Prime's lowest showings to make a case for prime.
Becoming the 3rd strongest being in all of creation - with outright omniscience requires reaction time? Earlier Thanos was gloating how he is everywhere, yet no where and how time as well has just as little meaning to him. If you're vastly more powerful than your opponent - you stopping their their most powerful weapon isn't much of a shock.
Firstly, unrelated to battle, by 3rd strongest being i assume you meant below TOAA and LT, while below TOAA is a given, below LT is however ambiguous because the only time an IG user has confronted LT is while Adam Warlock had IG, while initially Adam Warlock was willing to fight LT, LT himself stated fighting him would mean a destruction of an entire reality, they never really fought and who was superior to whom was left ambiguous.
Back to battle related, being 3rd strongest or 1st strongest, powers and what you are given. Non of the gem give you super reaction time, the closest is space gem which allows you to warp space to gain superspeed, nothing of reaction is ever mentioned. Molecule Man and PR Beyonder both were more powerful than even IG and neither of them have anything to show for reaction time. Protege was perhaps more powerful than IG too and he doesnt have any reaction time.
I am not saying Thanos being able to stop his hammer is a bad showing, what i am however saying is Thanos was able to stop the hammer before it hits him (even if it did hit him, i dont see that as doing a big damage), but Thanos was able to react and stop the hammer, showing that it is not normally thrown at a speed quicksilver would have problem over. Its been very consistent to his career.
Funny thing about the attack: Thor more or less appears dead-infront of Quicksilver from across the room and slams hims straight into the air.
Out of character for Thor to flash fry an opponent? Thor's been killing folks left and right these days - some of them he actually likes. The fact he's putting so much effort to not seriously harm him seems a bit out of character.
I though you were talking about flash flying the entire room, that an AOE attack which is what me and DC comics are arguing, without AOE attack Thor cant hit quicksilver.
the rest has nothing to do with what we are arguing.
I don't consider it recent - despite how quick everyone is to run to it to define the character's speed.
True, one showing Thor one shots the Sentry after he was bullrushed - the other Thor has issues hitting Wolverine. Makes sense if you don't think about it. A bit of lightning turns Daken into a fried piece of meat - a bit of lightning against Wolverine simply wakes him up from thinking Thor is Sabretooth. If almost everyone agrees on it, it makes it true? That logic isn't at all contradictory to reality.
I can accept Thor can one shot Wolverine clapping his hands, I can accept he can easily block just about anything when requires or hit it with a hammer toss. Him being unable to defend himself against Wolverine and splitting a street in half trying to hit him isn't at all consistent with the character's established ability.
People trying to justify this horrid piece of writing as a defining showing of Thor's speed as apparently much slower than the Hulk's is tiresome.
Thats just you then, because 4 years is generally considered quite recent, specially when a character has over 50 years of history.
I am not seeing anything to back of Thor's speed, and i never claimed anything against his powers, Thor can of course KO a street level with but a hit, or a thunder clap , what i am questioning is him being vastly superior to any streetlevel in terms of pure speed, say wolverine.
Thor isnt slower than Hulk though (and take it from me i am as big a Hulk fan as it gets). They reaction times are similar if we only look at current (last year) appearence, but a little more than that clearly shows Thor being superior to Hulk in speed by a good margin.
what i am however saying is Thor has never really been shown to be faster in combat against the likes of Spiderman/ Mongoose.
Equally matched? You're missing a few pages that add a bit more context:
Gallery
Once Thor realized Masterson doesn't have friendly intentions he starts trying to reason with him as he easily dodges Eric's assault.
"Now that I've blown the element of surprise Thor's weaving and dodging like a pro"
"Please Eric... I have no wish to harm you."
"I assume he's got a strength advantage, but I'm the one who's holding the enchanted hammer! - Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be doing me much good. I can't seem to land a blow on him!"
Thor more or less turns into Spiderman and runs circles around Eric as he tries to reason with him. It's not until he think's Sif has kicked the bucket that he wants to actually fight him. Then comes your scans that doesn't depict it as much of an equal fight - Eric scores one hit and that's with Mjolnir, otherwise Thor is out performing him hand to hand and stopping him mid attack.
If Mjolnir wasn't present Eric wouldn't have been able to do much to Thor in a fight. Thor's simply his superior in every way.
I am not missing the scans, i knowingly did not post these three scans because Thor only gets angry at the end and thats when he starts fighting seriously.
How does dodging Eric's attack have anything to do with it?
And no Thor doesnt run "circles" around him or anything, both of them are clearly going all out at it because as shown by your own scans Thor was pissed before the battle began, and the battle lasted 12 pages with neither winning and coming down to a stalemate. I dont see how that even remotely depicts Thor as his superior in every way??
And they have interchanged the hammer in the fight, sometimes Thor had the hammer the other times Eric had it.
If Eric didnt have the hammer it would have reverted to his human form, coz if thats your basis of argument then you should be saying Hulk stomps Thor without his hammer, seeing how he's always held his own against Thor with it. We both know neither you will admit to that, and nor me being a huge Hulk fan would, because the hammer neither in the hands of Thor nor in Eric's hand were used for what it can truly do, like bring down rain, hail, lighting, storms etc.
Also thor pretty much retains most of his powers without his hammer, he's called upon rain in one occasions and called upon lighting in other without his hammer. The only thing he cant do without his hammer is fly.
Still not seeing a big difference.
How many things in comics are completely canon that you adamantly found idiotic, inconsistent and just bad writing overall? Because I could think of a number of showings and I generally don't take them seriously because it would be dumb to.
Not a single time that i can recall of, which is backed by 4 other showings with nothing substantive to point to the contrary.
Then you don't quite understand what I was saying. If Thor is hitting hard enough for Black Adam and Captain Marvel to lose their grip on Prime - Prime is likely already out cold in that scenario and that is was I'm referring to: DC's comment that Thor will be hitting so hard both of them won't be able to hold Prime down.
This time you got me, i didnt actually understand what you were saying (mostly likely due to my poor english) and i apologise. That being said i still have seen no reason to believe Thor can put down Superman Prime with few (say 5) hammer strikes, he's just that durable.
Oh yeah - said Supermen were weakened by said kryptonite and still could Prime down and tank his blows. Is that the context I'm missing? Literally surrounded by Kryptonite Superman dropped Prime to boot.
What does that have to do with being restrained by two Supermen? Did they soften up Prime's muscles?
Your point?
Red shirt lanterns being killed by Superboy Prime - what again does this have to do with Superman level characters restraining him and cruising him through space?
I guess the Kryptonite has no effect on the latter Supermen.
That was only after said star burned away his plot armor. In the grandest sense Superman surrounded by Kryptonite and having far longer exposure to said red giant seems to kick Prime to the curb pretty well.
One of the Superman (earth 1 , our beloved Superman) is affected by Kryptonite, the Earth 2, stronger Superman isnt. So the stronger Superman isnt affected. And it wasnt the first superman, it was Earth 2 Superman who punches him not Earth 1 superman (the one with Gray hair).
It has a lot to do with them restraining, because fighting them makes him tried, and while tired you get weaker, isnt that obvious. He flew through that huge chuck of green lantern barricade, you think that wont hurt or affect him? And if you think it does my argument becomes, clear, if you dont think it does, then well you are outright accepting his close to being invulnerable.
Because a fight doesnt totally take a lot out of you right? I mean come on..
Like i said above, one 1 yes, on the later no.
Not to mention its a much stronger incarnation in this fight.
So when Prime runs into the Flashes all his superhuman stats go out the window and they can physically restrain him effortlessly?
Apparently yes, thats how it has been shown, coz he is downright scared. And when you are scared you dont act normally. Bart has effortlessly beaten him in 3 encounters now, and Superboy who's stronger than him cant , Superman cant but Bart can. Thats just how its written.
Google Superman Prime - see what results hit first. Comicvine page used to - as far as memory serves - continued to call him Superman Prime long after he lost the Oan Juice. Did anyone even call him Superman Prime on panel outside himself?
Also go into the link and check, and tell me if you find the word SuperMAN prime anywhere outside Countdown to final Crisis where he was amped on OA juice? HE isnt, every other paragraph its written SuperBOY Prime, including the series after it.
And no he wasnt called Superman Prime after he lost his juice, only him as the black costume, where he looked big and different is he ever referred to as SuperMAN prime.
The opening of your response was " I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level. Or his recent showings which includes:" - maybe I'm just reading it wrong.
How is depowering himself not a low showing? It's ridiculous - makes him look like a moron and punching your future counterpart shouldn't remove all your powers. Krypto, Superman, Martian Manhunter and hell Superboy have all been able to hurt Prime. It's pretty consistent he isn't this invulnerable monstrosity to anyone in that strength range - especially to Krypto's bite. And the number of hits that KOed him - weren't thirty teen titans.
Then you aren't looking hard enough and clearly not paying much intention to the entire context of my responses.
Yes you did not get what i meant at all. That was 2 different sentences:
I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level OR
(and this is a completely different sentence) his most recent showings which includes the following.
Neither sentence is connected, you are indeed reading it wrong than what I intended.
Just because you think its ridiculous doesnt make it a low showing, thats just character development, much like conciously losing IG to Nebula would NOT be considered a low showing for Thanos.
Krypto is a kryptonian dog, ok lets use science, the pressure per inch of a normal dog's bite is about 38 times stronger than a "normal "human's punch (mostly because its sharper) so yeah a 38 times more powerful punch than what a "normal" Kyrptonian can punch him made him bleed, no biggie.
Had Superman, or even Superboy come anywhere close to beating him i would considered, thats not the case. Both have outright lost.
Martian Manhunter is out of context, he used intangibility + telepathy, and you know what, be it Superman Prime or even a Sundipped Superman Prime for months, if MM plays his cards correct i still believes he wins. Strength cant counter intangibility not can it counter telepathy.
Honestly i am not seeing much a context at all, apart from you attempt to low Superboy/ Superman Prime, but meh maybe i am missing something.
Look at your own link, it firstly says SuperBOY Prime as compared to SuperMAN PRime, because thats what the character is called. Click the link and you will see SuperMAN prime only be used during the Countdown where he was amped, and the word Superboy Prime used throughout, what am i missing?
I still dont understand what you are talking about? Why does time/ Space has to be destoyed, the universe was destroyed as in planets, stars were apart from one lone planet. The two issue in final crisis states the universe to have been "destroyed", so i am more inclined to accept what is written on panel in more than one occasion rather than what you think constitutions of a universal destruction and what doesnt.
Because without a universe there is no time - much less space. The universe itself could be completely empty - void of any matter and it would still be a universe. Like I said it's really a stroke of luck or divine that anything exists in this universe. And we have a quote straight from the 'sole' survivor right after said explosion that didn't say anything about a destroyed universe and him happily rolling around on a planet with water, water vapor, plants sprouting to said sunlight and what have you.
Hell it's not even entirely clear what Prime 'tanks' given how he suddenly appears in a completely different time frame through a magic plot portal.
I did get what you meant, what i am however saying is that happens in comics all the time, dont see how thats even relevant here.
In this case it provides some semblance of contradiction to Prime having actually tanked anything however - most characters tanking a claimed 'universe buster' don't suddenly appear with their cloths none worse for wear than have them blasted off by ray guns.
So a being who is powered by 7 gods, transforms only using a magic lightning and has one shotted superman using what he called "magical punches", which Captain Marvel , who has similar powers have also used to one shot Superman in two occasions are not magic users ?
Given Superman's particular low-tolerance against magic - those fists or lightning should have killed them if they were something worth touting off as impressive in magical standards.
Why would the pellet bust the universe at impact?
I don't even think the pellet attack would bust a side walk; it's easily one of the most over-hyped feats on this site for Prime given there is nothing to it outside Mordru is doing it. That just isn't a solid argument without something substantial outside someone that likely wasn't that powerful even in that narrative.
When Odin was hitting Surfer with a blast (which at the very least had to be a continent busting attack since it one shotted him, as well as drax) did not side damage, same with his blast against Thanos.
We don't have any idea how powerful that attack was - but at the very least it did something to it's target. Here we don't even have that - Mordru is brought down to the levels of Adam.
An incomplete cosmic cube being , Beyonder (Kismet), used up all her powers in a blast to hit Thanos which didnt even destroy a city in Thanos mini
I wouldn't have a clue if she used up all her juice - all I know is it staggered Thanos. I have no idea why we keep talking blasts - given Mordru's attack wasn't a blast energy that did anything to begin with.
, a charged cosmic cubed was used to shoot at Thanos and it didnt even destroy anything around,
Be a tad bit more specific.
omega-beam that has one shotted Superman and Superman level beings with ease doesnt destroy anything,
Okay - again comparing something with actual feats vs an attack without any sense of how powerful it was outside Adamn.
so if you are going to use that to show oh the pallets are not powerful, you are gasping for straws.
Other way around; you're gasping for straws. Think about it with a bit of subjectivity - the attack isn't used by Mordru to drop anyone worth a damn and Prime simply scuffs it off - your more or less simply running off an assumption of power - based off this particular iteration Mordru being named Mordru - rather than anything substantial. If you can't see that, then really there is not point in me continuing arguing with you on this because you simply don't understand what I'm telling you. If you can show me that same attack do anything worth a damn in an actual narrative - you have an argument - till then it's a completely over-hyped showings that shows nothing of any importance that wasn't already shown.
Ok so lets buy into what you have, BA punches tickled him, modru's attacked tickled him , Kimnext attack tickled him, so Thor going all out with his punches tickles him, i guess we are in agreement then :)
Thor's fists aren't magical; there isn't any precedence for the argument Prime is invulnerable to his fists.
The fact that Mxy for that issue, for whatever reason, was stated to be a Magic user, and all magic users so far have done is tickle him, and thats what was stopping Mxy.
I guess because Mxy was restrained by some feat-less alternate incarnation of Zatanna he's a lot weaker than people think? Terrible writing for the win I guess. Though I do like how we have direct confirmation at Mxy's lack of ability to even use his powers because of Zatanna - and we run off in the direction Prime was immune to universal reality warping because Mxy is magic - same guy's power was unraveling the cosmos. Can't go wrong with that argument.
Had the magical powers that Thor possessed by any way even remotely comparable to what Shuma-Gorath is spouting then i could entertain this. Also you can nitpick all you want, pretty mucheveryone in this thread agrees Prime is immune,so unless you have anything to back your point, you can believe whatever floats your boat. thats not going to change my view or anyone's view for that matters. Nitpick all you want, for us and everyone else in the this, on panel evidence is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your whining.
What magical powers is Thor going to use in this fight? And you honestly think in order to actually fight Prime you need to be on the level of Shuma Gorath to even entertain the thought? Are you joking? The Majority isn't fallible - saying almost everyone thinks the world is flat - doesn't make it flat, saying a lot of folks think President Obama wasn't born in the US or for whatever reason isn't illegible to be President - and that's 60% of the Texas republicans right there and really I could go on all day where the Majority of anything or any large number of folks are wrong in general about anything they perceive. Saying all these people think I'm right isn't an argument.
I'm not here to think critically for people - that is their job. If they read this argument and can't understand what I'm saying - sad for them.
Glad we agree on the first part. Any reason to believe Thor can hit is fast enough in a battle that Quicksilver cant dodge? Any evidence to back that , anything he has done it in a battle to support that theory? Coz i honestly dont believe any and i have virtually read every Thor issue.
So the person that has read every Thor issue can't find grounds for Thor to be able to tag Quick Silver in any fashion with his hammer? Really? The Hammer the Surfer had trouble keeping up with is beyond Thor's ability to toss at Quicksilver I guess - that's nice.
So you consider that a blitz, lets see what happened:
So the moment the Silver Savage finished a sentence - him appearing with The Hulk and his Warbound being knocked into the air isn't them being blitzed? The entire showing is the Surfer tooling on them until his control disk was broken. This was a weakened surfer.
So first scan, among other things Hulk says ".. surfer is my ", Surfer says "friend" and hit him. Where exactly did he blitz him? Coz if you are using this as a blitz, i have about 14 showing including Durok, Magog , Destroyer and Desak blitzing Thor.
So all of them finished a sentence and knocked Thor and everyone around him in the air under the same breath? But of course you do.
So you are going to make assumption about Surfer vs Hulk and other without knowing what happened.
I made an assumption?
Lets look at his fight history1st fight with Hulk
Where's the contradiction with what I said here? The Hulk is hitting the Surfer - who he can't even physically hurt - while the Surfer is blabbing to him. That sums up almost everything showing I've seen where these two goliaths have fought.
Morpheus_ is rolling behind his computer screen.
The images on top looks a bit wonky, hopefully it will correct itself once i post because for some reason i even posted few scans from Surfer vs Thing (which is something i can use later if need be) Second fight with HulkA Third Fight with Silver Surfer
The problem with posting these decades old scans is I've already seen them. The Surfer dropped the Thing with a punch. Here's another example of the Hulk unable to hurt the Silver Surfer - actually being rescued by him - attempting to harm him - yata yata. It would be a lot better to post a fight where the Surfer actually applies some measure of speed and have the Hulk hit him - rather than a slew of most stationary Surfers getting knocking in the mouth while" fighting" the Hulk.
What were you saying again? Its consistent with Surfer's characters.Thing has had no problems tagging him, neither did Spiderman, nor did Abomination, nor did Super Skrull.
To quote myself:
Yes the Hulk can tag a Silver Surfer who isn't moving and talking to him almost every time he does hit him as far as I can remember.
Thanks for posting a slew of scans that prove what I said originally.
As funny as Spiderman comment is I am inclined to agree because he is Marvel's most famous character has ridiculous high end feats.
He has the most consistent random jobbers aura against high-level characters. Juggernaut should have made him past on his back - rather than sinking him in cement, he shouldn't have KOed the Hulk off panel seemingly by hitting him down with a car and he sure as hell shouldn't be going 10 rounds with PF Colossonaut.
Also what in the scan shows Thor reacting faster than Spiderman, spiderman tag his hammer, he hurled his hammer.
It shows the hammer being capable of being thrown fast enough that Spiderman finds himself in orbit - and killed - before he can even react to said hammer leaving Thor's hand.
If you are going to use showing like that, the entire Thor history is on him fighting brutes , the only Thor villian that has any claim to superspeed would probably be Loki which is still ambigiuous apart from Marvel putting him at 7. Apart from that maybe Destroyer, rest have no superspeed so to think of and they are always doing pretty good against Thor, beaten him too.
Because Thor's never fought a speedster or hell caught one with his cape before. I'd like to think it's been a bit more than brutes, like other gods, living planets, celestials or the occasional skyfather. It's not like he hasn't run circles around Hela or Masterson.
And how does that show anything about speed. If we are going to use that as speed argument, Hulk punches are FLT too.
How exactly would that translate to the Hulk's fists going FTL in his strikes? Or hell when did I say Thor's hammer is going faster than light?
How many words can you shove into my mouth in this argument?
Oh storm breaker, i did have this issue must have missed the scans. Impressive showings, but sadly not of Thor.
Completely true - we all know how superior Stormbreaker is to Mjolnir. To quote myself again:
Gallery
Odin described it to Bill as carrying the same burden Thor has had all his life after giving him Stormbreaker, Bill mentions again, Storm-breaker is every bit Mjolnir's equal and brother. There is a reason why Bill and Thor are Oath Brothers.
What is most entertaining of this notion is that Mjolnir has a slew of tossing feats - that aren't even necessarily in a fight - but still probably much faster. Oh well - I guess Stormbreaker is better and so is Bill!
And when did i say you were using this for the battle. I am simply arguing i have seen nothing to suggest Thor could have hit Quicksilver with the hammer in the fight. I have never even once brought speedblitz in the argument before you started using Prime's lowest showings to make a case for prime.
Feel free to tell me what Prime's peak showings are that aren't layered with bad writing that lets him luck out? Rather than argue for the sake of arguing a dozen points about how slow Thor or his hammer are when neither are relevant in this discussion.
Firstly, unrelated to battle, by 3rd strongest being i assume you meant below TOAA and LT, while below TOAA is a given, below LT is however ambiguous because the only time an IG user has confronted LT is while Adam Warlock had IG, while initially Adam Warlock was willing to fight LT, LT himself stated fighting him would mean a destruction of an entire reality, they never really fought and who was superior to whom was left ambiguous. Back to battle related, being 3rd strongest or 1st strongest, powers and what you are given.Non of the gem give you super reaction time,the closest is space gem which allowsyou to warp space to gain superspeed, nothing of reaction is ever mentioned. Molecule Man and PR Beyonder both were more powerful than even IG and neither of them have anything to show for reaction time. Protege was perhaps more powerful than IG too and he doesnt have any reaction time. I am not saying Thanos being able to stop his hammer is a bad showing, what i am however saying is Thanos was able to stop the hammer before it hits him (even if it did hit him, i dont see that as doing a big damage), but Thanos was able to react and stop the hammer, showing that it is not normally thrown at a speed quicksilver would have problem over. Its been very consistent to his career.
It's debatable - however the Tribunal is more or less the only being outside the TOAA that can challenge the wielder of the IG. The fact Warlock couldn't snap his fingers to end their confrontation - not to mention particular phase the Tribunal as he confidently rules against Adam - doesn't make one think he was going to win that fight.
As far as the Space Gem's concerned:
Gallery
Made the Runner as fast as he wanted to be. Given Thanos is sporting nigh-omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence - I think reacting time isn't going to be at it's normal levels for said character. Molecule Man never possessed omniscience or was omnipresent - people could shout out to the Beyonder and he would appear asking what, quite a different ball game.
Wait wait... completely different character that regularly mops the floor with speedsters stops Mjolnir mid throw - at some unknown speed being tossed = Quicksilver > Mjolnir toss? Can't argue with that logic. I have no idea why your debating like MKF30 - but it isn't a pleasant sight on the eyes.
I though you were talking about flash flying the entire room, that an AOE attack which is what me and DC comics are arguing, without AOE attack Thor cant hit quicksilver. the rest has nothing to do with what we are arguing.
He can do that and about a dozen other things. Totally - it's not like Quicksilver hasn't decked himself in fights - Thor has no other options of hitting Quicksilver, because he's just too fast for Mjolnir.
Thats just you then, because 4 years is generally considered quite recent, specially when a character has over 50 years of history.I am not seeing anything to back of Thor's speed, and i never claimed anything against his powers, Thor can of course KO a street level with but a hit, or a thunder clap , what i am questioning is him being vastly superior to any streetlevel in terms of pure speed, say wolverine.
No need to repeat yourself. I have to say, it's so tiresome for someone to simply argue with me the same @#$! I just argued in another thread for the hell of it. It's clear Thor himself can twirl that hammer and move pretty fast - quite literally on terms with the Silver Surfer in a fight (not just decking him mid sentence, though Thor did that a lot - the Surfer was at least moving at the time). Then you have a slew of showings where he's regularly blocking effortlessly things that move honestly much faster than Wolverine ever could hope to throughout decades with a swing of his hammer. Then you have Wolverine having issues with a blinded Hulk.
But again - it doesn't matter what is posted - it's all about a nonsensical showing where he fought Wolverine and for some reason Wolverine in this title of Wolverine vs Thor was just too fast. Faster than the Silver Surfer and clearly much more powerful given how badly he cut up a healthy Thor vs the wounded Thor the Silver Surfer was fighting. I mean Sure Thor can hurl Spiderman out of orbit faster than he can even react and again - Wolverine is just too fast.
Like I said - it makes sense that Wolverine can give Thor a hard time if you don't think about it. Emphasis on don't think about it.
Thor isnt slower than Hulk though (and take it from me i am as big a Hulk fan as it gets). They reaction times are similar if we only look at current (last year) appearence, but a little more than that clearly shows Thor being superior to Hulk in speed by a good margin.
Given how much better the Hulk as been depicted in fights with Wolverine - Thor in that book is much slower than the Hulk.
what i am however saying is Thor has never really been shown to be faster in combat against the likes of Spiderman/ Mongoose.
Never?
Equally matched? You're missing a few pages that add a bit more context:
Gallery
Once Thor realized Masterson doesn't have friendly intentions he starts trying to reason with him as he easily dodges Eric's assault.
"Now that I've blown the element of surprise Thor's weaving and dodging like a pro"
"Please Eric... I have no wish to harm you."
"I assume he's got a strength advantage, but I'm the one who's holding the enchanted hammer! - Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be doing me much good. I can't seem to land a blow on him!"
Thor more or less turns into Spiderman and runs circles around Eric as he tries to reason with him. It's not until he think's Sif has kicked the bucket that he wants to actually fight him. Then comes your scans that doesn't depict it as much of an equal fight - Eric scores one hit and that's with Mjolnir, otherwise Thor is out performing him hand to hand and stopping him mid attack.
If Mjolnir wasn't present Eric wouldn't have been able to do much to Thor in a fight. Thor's simply his superior in every way.
I am not missing the scans, i knowingly did not post these three scans because Thor only gets angry at the end and thats when he starts fighting seriously. How does dodging Eric's attack have anything to do with it?
So the fight only starts after Thor loses he cool and wants to beat up Masterson? The rest where Masterson is failing to initially hit Thor after the element of surprise is out the window or even that brief admission that Thor is probably stronger than he is - isn't part of the fight? Context is everything - Thor at the start of this conflict was easily dodging Masterson - who clearly isn't Thor's equal in this showing - given he's banking on possession of the hammer giving him a win here - is important.
Omitting the three scans that have Thor pretty much showing that difference between of the two of them rather clearly isn't entirely honest.
And no Thor doesnt run "circles" around him or anything, both of them are clearly going all out at it because as shown by your own scans Thor was pissed before the battle began, and the battle lasted 12 pages with neither winning and coming down to a stalemate. I dont see how that even remotely depicts Thor as his superior in every way??
Someone going into a rage under the notion someone important to them was just killed isn't walking into a fight with a cool head; If anything Thor's focus is impaired. Despite this and the lack of possession of Mjolnir in the fight - Thor is winning this fight. It's tough to argue that Masterson is stalemating when Masterson himself was putting am emphasis on how the difference in fighting ability, speed and even potentially strength were all in Thor favor. Quite literally:
Why should I consider this fight as a showing where Thor isn't Masterson's superior in everything where Masterson keeps telling the audience how much better Thor is than he is. It's really hard to see Masterson coming close to winning when he thinks he will lose even with the hammer.
And they have interchanged the hammer in the fight, sometimes Thor had the hammer the other times Eric had it.
Thor had possession for a moment - to destroy an asgardian tree being tossed at him. Outside that Thor's possession of the hammer consists of struggling for possession of it, catching it mid strike and slamming it into the ground with Masterson to end the fight. It's a completely different ball game for Masterson - he needs the hammer to stand a chance, Thor clearly doesn't,
If Eric didnt have the hammer it would have reverted to his human form, coz if thats your basis of argument then you should be saying Hulk stomps Thor without his hammer, seeing how he's always held his own against Thor with it. We both know neither you will admit to that, and nor me being a huge Hulk fan would, because the hammer neither in the hands of Thor nor in Eric's hand were used for what it can truly do, like bring down rain, hail, lighting, storms etc.
The hammer's strike power alone is a lot better than Thor or Eric's fists. The Hulk as quite literally held people hostage demanding Thor to drop his hammer. Clearly he hasn't always held his own against said hammer.
Also thor pretty much retains most of his powers without his hammer, he's called upon rain in one occasions and called upon lighting in other without his hammer. The only thing he cant do without his hammer is fly. Still not seeing a big difference.
The hammer has a slew more of them.
Not a single time that i can recall of, which is backed by 4 other showings with nothing substantive to point to the contrary.
I find that incredibly hard to believe.
This time you got me, i didnt actually understand what you were saying (mostly likely due to my poor english) and i apologise. That being said i still have seen no reason to believe Thor can put down Superman Prime with few (say 5) hammer strikes, he's just that durable.
If we're talking Oan amped Superman - his durability isn't entirely clear enough to distinguish how much physical punishment he can tank. Monarch as I remember it was way stronger than Superman - powerwise, I just recall him physically fighting Superman. So I can't say for certain that Mjolnir can't drop him. For normal Prime I wouldn't at all be surprised if it did.
Oh yeah - said Supermen were weakened by said kryptonite and still could Prime down and tank his blows. Is that the context I'm missing? Literally surrounded by Kryptonite Superman dropped Prime to boot.
What does that have to do with being restrained by two Supermen? Did they soften up Prime's muscles?
Your point?
Red shirt lanterns being killed by Superboy Prime - what again does this have to do with Superman level characters restraining him and cruising him through space?
I guess the Kryptonite has no effect on the latter Supermen.
That was only after said star burned away his plot armor. In the grandest sense Superman surrounded by Kryptonite and having far longer exposure to said red giant seems to kick Prime to the curb pretty well.
One of the Superman (earth 1 , our beloved Superman) is affected by Kryptonite, the Earth 2, stronger Superman isnt. So the stronger Superman isnt affected. And it wasnt the first superman, it was Earth 2 Superman who punches him not Earth 1 superman (the one with Gray hair). It has a lot to do with them restraining, because fighting them makes him tried, and while tired you get weaker, isnt that obvious. He flew through that huge chuck of green lantern barricade, you think that wont hurt or affect him? And if you think it does my argument becomes, clear, if you dont think it does,then well you are outright accepting his close to being invulnerable. Because a fight doesnt totally take a lot out of you right? I mean come on.. Like i said above, one 1 yes, on the later no. Not to mention its a much stronger incarnation in this fight.
If anything Earth 2 Superman lost his powers a lot quicker than all of them did - namely why Prime beats him to death. Superman more or less puts Prime in his place while surrounded by his weakness and a red sun.
That would imply Prime's stamina isn't impressive at all - more or less he seemed to shape and the barricade he could have flown around wasn't anything more than something that slowed him down on route - it wasn't particularly taxing. Flying through a bunch of "slowmedown" rubble hardly makes him invulnerable - that simply doesn't add up with his showings.
It does out of me because I'm human - I'm not Superboy Prime.=
Apparently yes, thats how it has been shown, coz he is downright scared. And when you are scared you dont act normally. Bart has effortlessly beaten him in 3 encounters now, and Superboy who's stronger than him cant , Superman cant but Bart can. Thats just how its written.
Fear doesn't turn Prime into a being that is weaker than the Flashes physically.
Erm yes i did, and here's the linkhttp://www.comicvine.com/superboy-prime/29-40756/ Look at how its spelled "superBOY Prime". Also go into the link and check, and tell me if you find the word SuperMAN prime anywhere outside Countdown to final Crisis where he was amped on OA juice? HE isnt, every other paragraph its written SuperBOY Prime, including the series after it. And no he wasnt called Superman Prime after he lost his juice, only him as the black costume, where he looked big and different is he ever referred to as SuperMAN prime.
My results where different I guess.
I'd have to check on that later - too exhausted to read and look for Superman Prime.
Yes you did not get what i meant at all. That was 2 different sentences:I could just say well i am using the most realistic showing of Thor which is getting blitz by street level OR
(and this is a completely different sentence) his most recent showings which includes the following.
Neither sentence is connected, you are indeed reading it wrong than what I intended.
Too tired to find the quote so I'll agree with you that I read to different sentences.
Just because you think its ridiculous doesnt make it a low showing, thats just character development, much like conciously losing IG to Nebula would NOT be considered a low showing for Thanos.
Conciously? He made himself Eternity - not sure that that translates into a low showing for Thanos - rather than a showing of a lack of foresight.
Krypto is a kryptonian dog, ok lets use science, the pressure per inch of a normal dog's bite is about 38 times stronger than a "normal "human's punch (mostly because its sharper) so yeah a 38 times more powerful punch than what a "normal" Kyrptonian can punch him made him bleed, no biggie.
That's running under the assumption said dog bites that hard. It's clear as heck it takes a whole lot less punishment to harm Prime.
Had Superman, or even Superboy come anywhere close to beating him i would considered, thats not the case. Both have outright lost.
So them being able to hurt him and his lack of ability to drop him in a single hit makes them not matter as a measuring stick?
Martian Manhunter is out of context, he used intangibility + telepathy, and you know what, be it Superman Prime or even a Sundipped Superman Prime for months, if MM plays his cards correct i still believes he wins. Strength cant counter intangibility not can it counter telepathy.
The only powers I remember Martian to using to knock Prime off panel was his fist - maybe intangibility to dodge heatray vision. If he used Telepathy Prime would have been a drooling mess on the floor without any basic TP protection.
Honestly i am not seeing much a context at all, apart from you attempt to low Superboy/ Superman Prime, but meh maybe i am missing something.
I'd say more than something if context is missing from my posts and all I'm doing apparently lowballing Prime instead of being a bit more objective than that.
Look at your own link, it firstly says SuperBOY Prime as compared to SuperMAN PRime, because thats what the character is called. Click the link and you will see SuperMAN prime only be used during the Countdown where he was amped, and the word Superboy Prime used throughout, what am i missing?
Because without a universe there is no time - much less space. The universe itself could be completely empty - void of any matter and it would still be a universe. Like I said it's really a stroke of luck or divine that anything exists in this universe. And we have a quote straight from the 'sole' survivor right after said explosion that didn't say anything about a destroyed universe and him happily rolling around on a planet with water, water vapor, plants sprouting to said sunlight and what have you.
Hell it's not even entirely clear what Prime 'tanks' given how he suddenly appears in a completely different time frame through a magic plot portal.
In short you are going to nitpick a hell out of a said feat.
1. I never said Prime tanked a universal blast, not even once, because primes was KOed, not even sure if he had help from Time Trapper, making it dubious.
2. Nitpick all you want, time, space yada yada yada, if the comics clearly says the universe was destroyed , the story from that point onwards assuming the universe was destroyed then you have absolutely no basis whatsoever.
Given Superman's particular low-tolerance against magic - those fists or lightning should have killed them if they were something worth touting off as impressive in magical standards.
So now you are going to lowball Superman to make a case against Superboy Prime? Thats very fair.
I don't even think the pellet attack would bust a side walk; it's easily one of the most over-hyped feats on this site for Prime given there is nothing to it outside Mordru is doing it. That just isn't a solid argument without something substantial outside someone that likely wasn't that powerful even in that narrative.
Again you are just nitpicking obviously because on side we have feats, on panel statements and other you have, erm ability to nitpick and nothing to show he has ever been harmed with magic apart from he say it "tickles" that means it works.
And Mordu,you can clearly see him hell pissed in the scan going "you stupid boy" and has a track of not holding back but that doesnt count.
We don't have any idea how powerful that attack was - but at the very least it did something to it's target. Here we don't even have that - Mordru is brought down to the levels of Adam.
LOL
Yeah it totally did something to the target, it tickled him coz Mordu is a tickle-monster.
I wouldn't have a clue if she used up all her juice - all I know is it staggered Thanos. I have no idea why we keep talking blasts - given Mordru's attack wasn't a blast energy that did anything to begin with.
She was weak enough that Thanos dropped her and the attack was strong enough to drop Thanos on his a$$ but you are still going to nitpick. If anything magic attack should have less collateral damage than a physical attack, what the heck are you talking about?
Okay - again comparing something with actual feats vs an attack without any sense of how powerful it was outside Adamn.
Yeah despite Mordru's history of beating JSA multiple times, including one of the most powerful magical entity Dr. Fate together with Alan Scott, his attacks are featless (simply because it was a future incarnation). Sounds fair.
Other way around; you're gasping for straws. Think about it with a bit of subjectivity - the attack isn't used by Mordru to drop anyone worth a damn and Prime simply scuffs it off - your more or less simply running off an assumption of power - based off this particular iteration Mordru being named Mordru - rather than anything substantial. If you can't see that, then really there is not point in me continuing arguing with you on this because you simply don't understand what I'm telling you. If you can show me that same attack do anything worth a damn in an actual narrative - you have an argument - till then it's a completely over-hyped showings that shows nothing of any importance that wasn't already shown.
In short at least i have on panel evidence, showings etc, while you have , despite you not willing to accept it, hate for Superboy Prime.
Thor's fists aren't magical; there isn't any precedence for the argument Prime is invulnerable to his fists.
why, what makes Thor any different from Black Adam or Captain Marvel. Whats your basis from differentiating the Thor punch vs Black Adam or Captain Marvel's punch? Anything?
Yet i am clearly given you the benefit of the doubt, i am not even saying, in fact i flat out said Thor's hitting power is NOT magical.
What magical powers is Thor going to use in this fight? And you honestly think in order to actually fight Prime you need to be on the level of Shuma Gorath to even entertain the thought? Are you joking? The Majority isn't fallible - saying almost everyone thinks the world is flat - doesn't make it flat, saying a lot of folks think President Obama wasn't born in the US or for whatever reason isn't illegible to be President - and that's 60% of the Texas republicans right there and really I could go on all day where the Majority of anything or any large number of folks are wrong in general about anything they perceive. Saying all these people think I'm right isn't an argument.
I'm not here to think critically for people - that is their job. If they read this argument and can't understand what I'm saying - sad for them.
In summary, you are only right because everyone else is wrong? Is that about it????
So the person that has read every Thor issue can't find grounds for Thor to be able to tag Quick Silver in any fashion with his hammer? Really? The Hammer the Surfer had trouble keeping up with is beyond Thor's ability to toss at Quicksilver I guess - that's nice.
Yes i have, at least solo issues (which is what i claim). The hammer that surfer had trouble keeping up with? As in the hammer Thor called from earth to the realm where god's go to die, that is totally an example of hammer being thrown in a fight.
So the moment the Silver Savage finished a sentence - him appearing with The Hulk and his Warbound being knocked into the air isn't them being blitzed? The entire showing is the Surfer tooling on them until his control disk was broken. This was a weakened surfer.
So all of them finished a sentence and knocked Thor and everyone around him in the air under the same breath? But of course you do.
Oh sorry i wasnt aware the defination of Speedblitz had changed from "fighting so fast the other couldnt cope with" to "being able to attack the other without completing a sentence", oh thank you for the update.
Where's the contradiction with what I said here? The Hulk is hitting the Surfer - who he can't even physically hurt - while the Surfer is blabbing to him. That sums up almost everything showing I've seen where these two goliaths have fought.
Morpheus_ is rolling behind his computer screen.
The problem with posting these decades old scans is I've already seen them. The Surfer dropped the Thing with a punch. Here's another example of the Hulk unable to hurt the Silver Surfer - actually being rescued by him - attempting to harm him - yata yata. It would be a lot better to post a fight where the Surfer actually applies some measure of speed and have the Hulk hit him - rather than a slew of most stationary Surfers getting knocking in the mouth while" fighting" the Hulk.
And surfer wasnt even talking to Thor while they recently fought in The Mighty Thor 04-05?
Your whole basis of argument was Thor has hit surfer with his hammer, so he can hit quicksilver, thats the only credible thing you have said. In return i said Hulk has been able to hit surfer, so has Rhino, so has Superskrull, so has Abomination etc.
Oh look who's talking about decade old scan, and werent you the one who showed me scans from Journey into the Mystery 122 as a proof that Odin could use time manipulation in the fight, which sadly wasnt even time manipulation. Lets see when was it from? Oh yes 1965, a lot older than the scans i posted, not to mention the first set of scans, which fortunately didnt come a little out of whack is from fairly recent series Silver Surer 1998. I dont know maybe my math is bad but i always though 1965 was a lot older than 1998.
Also why on earth with Morpheu_ be rolling behind his computer? Have i even once said Surfer is slow. He sure as heck isnt, he has 2 showings of nanosecond reaction time and one showing of being able to react faster than light (albiet from GOTG as his keeper days), and best of all he has never been blitz.
So Thor hitting surfer with hammer = him being able to throw hammer at very high speed
Hulk hitting hammer = a bunch of whinning
Because Thor's never fought a speedster or hell caught one with his cape before. I'd like to think it's been a bit more than brutes, like other gods, living planets, celestials or the occasional skyfather. It's not like he hasn't run circles around Hela or Masterson.
By all means when has Thor ever fought a speedster, who was using his speed, and still fail to say tag him, or Thor easily dodged it?
And did i once say his villians were weak, no, I said none of them have superspeed in a battle.
Dont see me as trying to lowball thor but try and analyze yourself.
Other gods like Loki (which i do give benefit of doubt and did state thus before), Perrikus, Other dark gods, hercules (not really a villian but they have fought 4 times), Hela, Melikath - do you ever remember anyone showing a reaction time? i really dont.
Living planet? Ego can travel FLT but you really think a giant walking planet would have fight speed? Ego Prime, his humoniod incarnation, never showed superspeed either.
Celestial? LOL they dont even dodge anything let alone so speed in a fight.
Skyfather? the only 2 i remember would be Zeus and Glory, neither have ever shown any kind of speed.
Hela - when has he run circles around hela now?
Masterson - he sure as hell wasnt running circles around him?
Completely true - we all know how superior Stormbreaker is to Mjolnir. To quote myself again:
Gallery
What are you taling about again? What has Mjolnir being superior to stormbreaker has anything to do with Thor being able to throw hammer at a given speed in the battle. ???
Yet again i ask, when has Thor ever thrown his hammer, in a battle, in a quantifiable speed?
It's debatable - however the Tribunal is more or less the only being outside the TOAA that can challenge the wielder of the IG. The fact Warlock couldn't snap his fingers to end their confrontation - not to mention particular phase the Tribunal as he confidently rules against Adam - doesn't make one think he was going to win that fight.
As far as the Space Gem's concerned:
Gallery
Made the Runner as fast as he wanted to be. Given Thanos is sporting nigh-omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence - I think reacting time isn't going to be at it's normal levels for said character. Molecule Man never possessed omniscience or was omnipresent - people could shout out to the Beyonder and he would appear asking what, quite a different ball game.
Wait wait... completely different character that regularly mops the floor with speedsters stops Mjolnir mid throw - at some unknown speed being tossed = Quicksilver > Mjolnir toss? Can't argue with that logic. I have no idea why your debating like MKF30 - but it isn't a pleasant sight on the eyes.
(off topic) well you could also say it the other way around, if LT was truely more powerful than say the gauntlet, why would he even have risked a fight, he could simply had zapped him helpless , thats now what happened. LT was prepared to fight, but was hesistant that the said fight would destroy the whole reality, and even asked Warlock if thats the kind of God he is. I think LT vs IG was left a little iffy, but if majority agree who am i to argue.
(back to topic) No the space gem doesnt give you better reaction time, thats rubbish. And you are showing scans of Runner running circles around Thanos who blitz Surfer without the gem? I mean come on, runner was already fast. The space gem warps the space such that you can reach your destination before you even begin. It doesnt give you better reaction time.
And you yet try to twist what i said. What i am saying it Thanos doesnt have super human speed, fact. He mops the floor with speedster because neither of them use their speed against him. But had that been the only instance i had used you would have some point.
Also who is MKF30 and why are we talking about him?
No need to repeat yourself. I have to say, it's so tiresome for someone to simply argue with me the same @#$! I just argued in another thread for the hell of it. It's clear Thor himself can twirl that hammer and move pretty fast - quite literally on terms with the Silver Surfer in a fight (not just decking him mid sentence, though Thor did that a lot - the Surfer was at least moving at the time). Then you have a slew of showings where he's regularly blocking effortlessly things that move honestly much faster than Wolverine ever could hope to throughout decades with a swing of his hammer. Then you have Wolverine having issues with a blinded Hulk.
But again - it doesn't matter what is posted - it's all about a nonsensical showing where he fought Wolverine and for some reason Wolverine in this title of Wolverine vs Thor was just too fast. Faster than the Silver Surfer and clearly much more powerful given how badly he cut up a healthy Thor vs the wounded Thor the Silver Surfer was fighting. I mean Sure Thor can hurl Spiderman out of orbit faster than he can even react and again - Wolverine is just too fast.
Like I said - it makes sense that Wolverine can give Thor a hard time if you don't think about it. Emphasis on don't think about it.
(off topic) Ah! so you do get pissed where people use realistic showings of Thor ;) - NOTED lol
(back on track) You can say a 1000s things, any proof that Thor can, because one side we have proof, one side we have consensus, other side you have erm your nitpicking?
And remember, your poof for Thor's speed has to be at the least better than Prime's invulnerability to magic, it would be fun to see. Go ahead, show something. Else stop complaining.
And what? Light base attack, how many times has Captain America blocked Light based attack?
Wolverine having issue with a blinded hulk makes Thor faster? how?
Wolverine is not faster than silver surfer, coz silver surfer hasnt been blitz twice in his own solo issue.
Yeah so that showing totally proves Thor is faster, but Prime showing doesnt show he is immune? and you claim not to be bias, interesting :) Very interesting.
what i am however saying is Thor has never really been shown to be faster in combat against the likes of Spiderman/ Mongoose.
Never?
What was the point of bolding it?
And if something consistently happens, or has happened at least 5 times, and there is nothing outright to prove otherwise, like say a microsecond reaction time after the said incidents. I see no reason not to believe.
You have to understand, comic book characters are imagination, if writers write thing that way, thats the way they are.
Hulk cant lift Thor's hammer from the ground, but can catch a falling hammer and strike Thor with it. Happened three times (including a non cannon issue). Does that makes sense? No. Backed by evidence so we roll with it.
So the fight only starts after Thor loses he cool and wants to beat up Masterson? The rest where Masterson is failing to initially hit Thor after the element of surprise is out the window or even that brief admission that Thor is probably stronger than he is - isn't part of the fight? Context is everything - Thor at the start of this conflict was easily dodging Masterson - who clearly isn't Thor's equal in this showing - given he's banking on possession of the hammer giving him a win here - is important.
Someone going into a rage under the notion someone important to them was just killed isn't walking into a fight with a cool head; If anything Thor's focus is impaired. Despite this and the lack of possession of Mjolnir in the fight - Thor is winning this fight. It's tough to argue that Masterson is stalemating when Masterson himself was putting am emphasis on how the difference in fighting ability, speed and even potentially strength were all in Thor favor. Quite literally:
Why should I consider this fight as a showing where Thor isn't Masterson's superior in everything where Masterson keeps telling the audience how much better Thor is than he is. It's really hard to see Masterson coming close to winning when he thinks he will lose even with the hammer.
So Thor was so much better than Masterson, lost his cool (so going for the kill), but cannot ko , kill or incapacitate Masterson for 14 scans? (seems unbais i mean thats what happened when a pissed off SS fought Superskrull or when Super skrull fought a pissed off Thanos).
The hammer's strike power alone is a lot better than Thor or Eric's fists. The Hulk as quite literally held people hostage demanding Thor to drop his hammer. Clearly he hasn't always held his own against said hammer.
Ah! now you are contradicting yourself. IF hammer itself has a striking power greater than them both, and the power of the hammer comes from Odin's enchantment which is mystical in nature, yet Thor brings no magic to the table while fighting Prime? Cool.
Because the hammer is versatile, can bring down rain, lighting etc, but the person Masterson is fighting can control all them( he's shown ability to control weather, better than storm, during Contest of Champions 4), so hulk vs Thor and Thor vs Masterson in regards to the hammer is a little different.
Not to mention Masterson turns human without the hammer, so the hammer had to be involved.
If anything Earth 2 Superman lost his powers a lot quicker than all of them did - namely why Prime beats him to death. Superman more or less puts Prime in his place while surrounded by his weakness and a red sun.
That would imply Prime's stamina isn't impressive at all - more or less he seemed to shape and the barricade he could have flown around wasn't anything more than something that slowed him down on route - it wasn't particularly taxing. Flying through a bunch of "slowmedown" rubble hardly makes him invulnerable - that simply doesn't add up with his showings.
Based on what?
Superman puts prime in his place, superman is bleeding Prime is not? Yeah thats totally puts him in place.
It would imply prime's stamina is not impressive? a lot tinner walls of willpower have contained Supernova explosion of a quantum black hole, yet prime ripped through all that and if he gets hurt or weak of something that huge, it shows prime's stamina isnt impressive, seems legit :)
My results where different I guess.
I'd have to check on that later - too exhausted to read and look for Superman Prime.
Did you even bother to read any of the result.
Neither of that calls him SuperMAN prime in any other subcontext other than during countdown to final crisis (or superman prime one million) which is a different character.
Try and search King Thor comics and see what wiki pops out
Why because at one point in time Thor was king Thor, just like at one point in time SuperBOY prime was SuperMAN prime. Hence he was given a different costume. Heck if you dont even know one incarnation of a character from another , why are you even trying to lowball him?
Conciously? He made himself Eternity - not sure that that translates into a low showing for Thanos - rather than a showing of a lack of foresight.
The reason Thanos lost IG to Nebula was because he wanted to lose it, thats how it was explained. Backed by the fact that, when exactly the same thing happened, Thanos trying to read all the souls from hell and Memphisto stealing his IG, it did not work out for Memphisto at all and he got his neck stranggled. Thats depowering as well. Thats the reason Adam Warlock gave Thanos the reality gem to begin with.
That's running under the assumption said dog bites that hard. It's clear as heck it takes a whole lot less punishment to harm Prime.
Wait you are saying Krypto is a dog, and he holds back LOL, seems legit.
So them being able to hurt him and his lack of ability to drop him in a single hit makes them not matter as a measuring stick?
IT makes them as much a measuring stick as say Thor and Zeus. Also the point is Superboy Prime is already stronger than more durable than Superman, one needed help from 3 people to move a planet, other did all by himself. Not to mention its SuperMAN Prime, which regardless of whether you agree or disagree, despite all the wikis you have given pointing to the contrary, is Superboy Prime during Countdown to Final Crisis when he had absorbed OAN energy, hence the different name, and hence the different costume. He wasnt called Superman Prime before that , not was he called superman prime after it, and the very next arc is Legion of 3 worlds.
I'd say more than something if context is missing from my posts and all I'm doing apparently lowballing Prime instead of being a bit more objective than that.
Look at your own link, it firstly says SuperBOY Prime as compared to SuperMAN PRime, because thats what the character is called. Click the link and you will see SuperMAN prime only be used during the Countdown where he was amped, and the word Superboy Prime used throughout, what am i missing?
You are lowballing, you are using his lowest showing in any given fight to determine how strong he apparently should be according to you, despite him regular showing being different. You are also using double standards, Prime has more feats to show he is at the very least extremely invulnerable to magic and no showing to contradict it, not even one, while Thor doesnt have that to show his superspeed, and you believe Thor is faster (despite having 5 evidence to the contrary) but wont agree about Prime.
Hmmm....Superman Prime is a powerhouse of epic proportions, yes, but let's give these other guys some credit here. Yes, they are magic based beings and one of them is a god, so that means they can amp up their power levels to an Earth shattering magnatude. The powers of Shazam and the might of any version of Thor because he would go to these extremes to defeat any villain. It would be a long drawn out battle and basically for the magic based beings to win, they'd simply have to destroy every yellow and blue or white star in the known solar system to depower Superman Prime and we know that would kill any life existing in that universe and plus Supes wouldn't even let them come close to a star because i'm sure the closer he gets the more light he can absorb to get even stronger. Not a curb stomp but an ass whoopin so cosmic, Shazams an Thor would have to just, bowdown to superior power.
In short you are going to nitpick a hell out of a said feat. 1. I never said Prime tanked a universal blast, not even once, because primes was KOed, not even sure if he had help from Time Trapper, making it dubious. 2. Nitpick all you want, time, space yada yada yada, if the comics clearly says the universe was destroyed , the story from that point onwards assuming the universe was destroyed then you have absolutely no basis whatsoever.
I'm pointing out how destroying the cosmos is a big feat - not simply clearing some of what is inside the universe. A universe can very well be void of anything and essentially be empty space. What you described isn't the destruction of the universe; what is shown immediately after the event - isn't the destruction of a universe.
Nonchalantly saying otherwise simply isn't factual. That isn't just being nit-picky.
So now you are going to lowball Superman to make a case against Superboy Prime? Thats very fair.
You have an odd perception of lowballing a character. I pointed out if that striking power was at all impressive in terms of magical potency - Superman wouldn't probably survive being punched by either of them. Instead that isn't at all the case in his confrontations with these characters.
Again you are just nitpicking obviously because on side we have feats, on panel statements and other you have, erm ability to nitpick and nothing to show he has ever been harmed with magic apart from he say it "tickles" that means it works.And Mordu,you can clearly see him hell pissed in the scan going "you stupid boy" and has a track of not holding back but that doesnt count.
There is an evident difference between being nitpicking and calling out a very clear flaw in said argument. The pellet attack is no different than a DBZ fan trying to use power levels as a benchmark for how much destructive capacity a character has - there is nothing quantifiable about either. Mordru doesn't use that same attack to do anything worth noting in the narrative; not to mention this particular iteration of character is a far cry from his older counter-parts that have showings that give you some idea of what kind of power they have on their own.
More or less this argument is simply based off an assumption of power - defined by name only.
LOL Yeah it totally did something to the target, it tickled him coz Mordu is a tickle-monster.
Correction: Pretty much.
She was weak enough that Thanos dropped her and the attack was strong enough to drop Thanos on his a$$ but you are still going to nitpick. If anything magic attack should have less collateral damage than a physical attack, what the heck are you talking about?
Thanos dropped her with telepathy - not that his attacks didn't hurt her though. There's no reason at all to suggest that is the case - you've had magical characters blasting about and causing galactic chaos / near universal destruction - just as easily as normal cosmic blasts do.
Energy Blasts vs Magic Purple Pellets; those are a little different.
Yeah despite Mordru's history of beating JSA multiple times, including one of the most powerful magical entity Dr. Fate together with Alan Scott, his attacks are featless (simply because it was a future incarnation). Sounds fair.
It is far - it is a different iteration of the character. Simply assuming both have the same power isn't really going to fly in an argument; just like this notion this attack is simply powerful because it's flying out of Mordru's hand.
In short at least i have on panel evidence, showings etc, while you have , despite you not willing to accept it, hate for Superboy Prime.
Then I guess there is no point to continue arguing then. You're clearly not even bothering to meet me half way and try to understand why I think little of the feat - instead scoffing it off as simply being my hate for a fictional character.
why, what makes Thor any different from Black Adam or Captain Marvel. Whats your basis from differentiating the Thor punch vs Black Adam or Captain Marvel's punch? Anything? Yet i am clearly given you the benefit of the doubt, i am not even saying, in fact i flat out said Thor's hitting power is NOT magical.
Honestly - there is a pretty massive list of differences between these characters. Thor's strength is his own - BA & CM are magically empowered by a number deities to hit as hard as they do, Thor himself is his own god; because of this Thor is sporting a bunch of random plot related powers - allowing him to poke his fingers through reality to universe hop simply because his divine form transcends reality.
I'm fully aware of what you said prior - just here you seem to bring up a conflicting point of view.
In summary, you are only right because everyone else is wrong? Is that about it????
I think you might need to re-read that response if you're coming to that conclusion. The summary: the majority isn't infallible and has been wrong many times in dozens of forms. The idea that the majority agrees with you doesn't make you right; that is not an argument.
If I believed otherwise I wouldn't stroll into DBU threads or even bother posting much at all because there would be no point to do so. Simply saying "yep" to the majority without any independent thought is a bore.
Yes i have, at least solo issues (which is what i claim). The hammer that surfer had trouble keeping up with? As in the hammer Thor called from earth to the realm where god's go to die, that is totally an example of hammer being thrown in a fight.
Here's the thing: there is no logical reason it cannot go that fast in a toss(and certainly has been shown going much faster on panel before with a toss). That was a pure innate speed showing for the hammer simply returning to Thor's hand - without the added boost of a good twirl and toss. Unless you're under the impression that the hammer returning to his hand goes faster than when it's tossed.
Though I guess in that case we can argue how the hammer can blitz people on it's return back to Thor's hand after his slow toss misses. =P
Oh sorry i wasnt aware the defination of Speedblitz had changed from "fighting so fast the other couldnt cope with" to "being able to attack the other without completing a sentence", oh thank you for the update.
Look up the definitions for speed and blitz - that's exactly what is happening here. Hell the definition you just gave there fits perfectly as the Surfer attacks them so fast the Hulk and friend's couldn't cope with him as he knocks them all on their rears.
And surfer wasnt even talking to Thor while they recently fought in The Mighty Thor 04-05?
The main contradiction here is the Surfer was actually moving while blabbing. The only time Thor hits a stationary Surfer is when he Mjolnir's him in the back in their initial meeting in Mighty Thor and again when the Surfer shows concern over his wound. Outside that the Surfer and Thor spend much of the fight - actually fighting, board and hammer speed attacks galore.
Your whole basis of argument was Thor has hit surfer with his hammer,so he can hit quicksilver, thats the only credible thing you have said. In return i said Hulk has been able to hit surfer, so has Rhino, so has Superskrull, so has Abomination etc.
No it isn't at all. I suggest re-reading what I've written if you honestly believe that is the case. The rest of these showings again consist of a stationary surfer trying to reason with individuals that can't hurt him physically and as a result they attack him as he tries to talk to them.
Oh look who's talking about decade old scan, and werent you the one who showed me scans from Journey into the Mystery 122 as a proof that Odin could use time manipulation in the fight, which sadly wasnt even time manipulation. Lets see when was it from? Oh yes 1965, a lot older than the scans i posted, not to mention the first set of scans, which fortunately didnt come a little out of whack is from fairly recent series Silver Surer 1998. I dont know maybe my math is bad but i always though 1965 was a lot older than 1998.
First off that was time manipulation: namely why time was stopped and the Loki Destroyer didn't visor blast Odin.
My complaint was directed at the fact I've already seen all these scans because of their age. As well as the fact what you are posting doesn't even contradict the point I made of how all these showings consist of these characters hitting the Surfer when he's reasoning or talking to them - while completely stationary. Not to mention for the most these characters cannot even hurt him.
Also why on earth with Morpheu_ be rolling behind his computer? Have i even once said Surfer is slow. He sure as heck isnt, he has 2 showings of nanosecond reaction time and one showing of being able to react faster than light (albiet from GOTG as his keeper days), and best of all he has never been blitz. So Thor hitting surfer with hammer = him being able to throw hammer at very high speed Hulk hitting hammer = a bunch of whinning
Because you're posting a slew of scans without any mind to the actual consistent theme behind them - simply saying how everyone can hit the Surfer Surfer. No whining - simply pointing out again - the consistent theme throughout these showings you're neglecting to mention.
By all means when has Thor ever fought a speedster, who was using his speed, and still fail to say tag him, or Thor easily dodged it?And did i once say his villians were weak, no, I said none of them have superspeed in a battle.Dont see me as trying to lowball thor but try and analyze yourself.Other gods like Loki (which i do give benefit of doubt and did state thus before), Perrikus, Other dark gods, hercules (not really a villian but they have fought 4 times), Hela, Melikath - do you ever remember anyone showing a reaction time? i really dont.Living planet? Ego can travel FLT but you really think a giant walking planet would have fight speed? Ego Prime, his humoniod incarnation, never showed superspeed either.Celestial? LOL they dont even dodge anything let alone so speed in a fight.Skyfather? the only 2 i remember would be Zeus and Glory, neither have ever shown any kind of speed.
I think the toughest part about this argument is how little you understand about what I'm saying and how quick you are to reply. It's a classic breakdown of communication and it's not getting better despite my efforts as you trail off in your own direction. Just for reference I pointed out how Thor's rogue list is a little larger than simple brutes - which you translated into me thinking Celestials or Ego as being fast opponents for Thor to fight.
Here's the thing - what can I mention that you haven't already seen or read? We've seen Thor easily beat the tar out of Extremis Iron Man - who clearly does try to speed attack him and ends up being flung straight out of Thor's way through a roof with a single strike(I'm referring to the point when Tony more or less turns into a big blue line as he attempts to rush Thor). We could go way back to when Zefra was zig-zag lining around the page - everyone in a panic - as Thor casually grabs a hold of her with his cape and pulls out his charm. But then comes Quicksilver (despite knocking him in the air and restraining a very much awake Quicksilver by the throat), Wolverine or that other squirrel character you referenced.
Hela - when has he run circles around hela now?
You don't recall Hela chasing Thor around to touch / kill him? It wasn't as bad as it was in Avengers Prime decades later - though Hela was sporting quite a massive power up and zombies to help.
Masterson - he sure as hell wasnt running circles around him?
I'm not going to post the same scans again - we both saw how Thor could dodge Masterson's assaults all day without any effort on his part.
What are you taling about again? What has Mjolnir being superior to stormbreaker has anything to do with Thor being able to throw hammer at a given speed in the battle.??? Yet again i ask, when has Thor ever thrown his hammer, in a battle, in a quantifiable speed?
You entertained the notion that Storm-breaker is superior to Mjolnir - in this case in regards to how fast it moves in a fight - which isn't at all true (especially Mjolnir has better feats, the problem is they're way older and they usually aren't in fights). Are you looking for a specific showing in particular or just in general - because in general it's more or less as fast as it needs to be - but for decades it's been regarded as being able to go FTL in flight - whether that is a toss or anything really.
(off topic) well you could also say it the other way around, if LT was truely more powerful than say the gauntlet, why would he even have risked a fight, he could simply had zapped him helpless , thats now what happened. LT was prepared to fight, but was hesistant that the said fight would destroy the whole reality, and even asked Warlock if thats the kind of God he is. I think LT vs IG was left a little iffy, but if majority agree who am i to argue.
Because being more powerful doesn't mean you're more powerful by much. It's clear the difference between the IG and the Tribunal in terms of power is marginal at best given the interaction between the two of them. Feel free to argue against the majority - because they aren't the final say.
(back to topic)No the space gem doesnt give you better reaction time, thats rubbish. And you are showing scans of Runner running circles around Thanos who blitz Surfer without the gem? I mean come on, runner was already fast. The space gem warps the space such that you can reach your destination before you even begin. It doesnt give you better reaction time.
I like how I'm being chastised for claims I didn't quite make. I pointed out how the Runner was more or less as fast as he wanted to be with the gem - clearly an emphasis being put into that difference that he's arriving at his destination before he hits his stride or how he's doubling that speed he's already displaying against Thanos. He's fast - but that gem makes him a whole lot faster - and that is a self admission.
And you yet try to twist what i said. What i am saying it Thanos doesnt have super human speed, fact.He mops the floor with speedster because neither of them use their speed against him. But had that been the only instance i had used you would have some point.
Wait wait wait... the guy who isn't at all physically human has human speed? Eros says high by the way - well he would but Thanos back handed him during a speed assault straight into a wall.
Also who is MKF30 and why are we talking about him?
Someone you're arguing much the same as. Which isn't a good thing.
(off topic) Ah! so you do get pissed where people use realistic showings of Thor ;) - NOTED lol
No I'm tired irrelevant arguments. You came into this thread and decided to turn it into another "prove Thor is fast" threads when that has NOTHING to do with what I argued. Instead of trying to poke holes in that idea - you moved onto something quite literally to waste my time and I don't like that. It has nothing to do with the thread and you're happily pushing forward with it despite me pointing this out. It's incredibly not cool.
(back on track) You can say a 1000s things, any proof that Thor can, because one side we have proof, one side we have consensus, other side you have erm your nitpicking?And remember, your poof for Thor's speed has to be at the least better than Prime's invulnerability to magic, it would be fun to see. Go ahead, show something. Else stop complaining.
While you can continue to throw out the term "nitpicking" I could honestly call what you're doing - trolling.
That depends on you: We've seen Thor being tugged by that hammer matching the Silver Surfer's speed as they head for one another, even dodging him last second. We've seen that hammer return to his hands at speeds the Surfer was impressed by. We've seen that hammer fling Spiderman with it faster than he could even figure out what is going on before dying in space. We've seen Thor for decades now casually swing out of his way repulsor blasts, cosmic blasts or random attacks that require a twirl to form a shield in-front of him. We've seen him grab another god and twirl him by the heel with his fingers. But the question lies in your lap what exactly do you want to see from Thor?
Because so far the lack of throwing his hammer at Quicksilver has been suggested that Mjolnir can't tag Quicksilver. That Spiderman blitzing Masterson - who was afraid he was going to get KOed by Spiderman meant that Thor would have found himself in a similar situation. We have Wolverine given Thor a better fight in peak condition than a Thor that had issues standing was given by the Silver Surfer. What is there to say?
And what? Light base attack, how many times has Captain America blocked Light based attack?
Someone is trying to copy Buckshot and even jump ahead and start talking about light based attacks I haven't mentioned.But I'm sure Cap has some sunscreen to slap on for protection. I'd appreciate it if you could grab some scans where Cap is swinging away energy blasts with a magic hammer or intercepting them with a toss. Then again he already throws his shield faster than an already launched missile so I guess that isn't too bad either.
Wolverine having issue with a blinded hulk makes Thor faster? how?
Apparently it doesn't - because Thor had issues defending himself / attacking a delusional Wolverine and a blinded Hulk had no issues smashing up a bone claw Wolverine (so much for the light bones).
Wolverine is not faster than silver surfer, coz silver surfer hasnt been blitz twice in his own solo issue.
Disagree - given Wolverine's impressive speed display against a healthy Thor vs Norrin's display against a Thor that struggled to stand - I'd say it's a safe bet that Wolverine is not only faster than the Silver Surfer - but far more powerful. Arguing otherwise would be going against the holy bible of amazing writing that was Wolverine vs Thor.
Yeah so that showing totally proves Thor is faster, but Prime showing doesnt show he is immune? and you claim not to be bias, interesting :) Very interesting.
Comparing apples and oranges - while implying bias ftw?
What was the point of bolding it? And if something consistently happens, or has happened at least 5 times, and there is nothing outright to prove otherwise, like say a microsecond reaction timeafterthe said incidents. I see no reason not to believe. You have to understand, comic book characters are imagination, if writers write thing that way, thats the way they are. Hulk cant lift Thor's hammer from the ground, but can catch a falling hammer and strike Thor with it. Happened three times (including a non cannon issue). Does that makes sense? No. Backed by evidence so we roll with it.
Was curious about never in that expression. Don't quite remember that.
So Thor was so much better than Masterson, lost his cool (so going for the kill), but cannot ko , kill or incapacitate Masterson for 14 scans? (seems unbais i mean thats what happened when a pissed off SS fought Superskrull or when Super skrull fought a pissed off Thanos).
According to Masterson himself - Thor is indeed his better. According to Masterson's overall performance as Thor - he is not on par with Thor. The fight itself is not an even fight like Beta Ray Bill vs Thor was; remove the hammer from the fight and it would consist of Thor over-powering Masterson and beating him to death.
Ah! now you are contradicting yourself. IF hammer itself has a striking power greater than them both, and the power of the hammer comes from Odin's enchantment which ismysticalin nature, yet Thor brings no magic to the table while fighting Prime? Cool. Because the hammer is versatile, can bring down rain, lighting etc, but the person Masterson is fighting can control all them( he's shown ability to control weather, better than storm, during Contest of Champions 4), so hulk vs Thor and Thor vs Masterson in regards to the hammer is a little different. Not to mention Masterson turns human without the hammer, so the hammer had to be involved.
It hurts abstracts easily enough - however I'm referring to the fact that said hammer is a hammer and Thor's fists are fists. Go punch someone as hard as you can, then swing a massive hammer at their head as hard as you can - there will be a difference.
Based on what?Superman puts prime in his place, superman is bleeding Prime is not? Yeah thats totally puts him in place. It would imply prime's stamina is not impressive? a lot tinner walls of willpower have contained Supernova explosion of a quantum black hole, yet prime ripped through all that and if he gets hurt or weak of something that huge, it shows prime's stamina isnt impressive, seems legit :)
The fact Prime beats him to death - did you gloss over that in my post? Did you miss the part where Superman beats him down? You were claiming he was tired after the effort - that is in direct relationship with his stamina. The "wall" (which is more or less rocks) itself didn't require much effort for him to push through.
There isn't anything implying he was hurt or physically weakened - stop pretending there is.
Did you even bother to read any of the result. Neither of that calls him SuperMAN prime in any other subcontext other than during countdown to final crisis (or superman prime one million) which is a different character.
You don't even want to look at the Google Images for Superman Prime - mostly non Oan amped Prime. Quite the opposite for King Thor - which is mostly King Thor.
Try and search King Thor comics and see what wiki pops out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_(Marvel_Comics) Why because at one point in time Thor was king Thor, just like at one point in time SuperBOY prime was SuperMAN prime. Hence he was given a different costume. Heck if you dont even know one incarnation of a character from another , why are you even trying to lowball him?
My results were a little different:
Gallery
Never even saw the normal wiki for comic Thor - must have been a tad bit more specific.
The reason Thanos lost IG to Nebula was because he wanted to lose it, thats how it was explained. Backed by the fact that, when exactly the same thing happened, Thanos trying to read all the souls from hell and Memphisto stealing his IG, it did not work out for Memphisto at all and he got his neck stranggled. Thats depowering as well. Thats the reason Adam Warlock gave Thanos the reality gem to begin with.
Not sure how this is a low showing.
Wait you are saying Krypto is a dog, and he holds back LOL, seems legit.
Again you run off another assumption of what you think I said - rather than what I said. I was referring to this number you were tossing out - an assumption of how hard Krypto would be biting.
This repetition of "Seems legit" or "LOL" doesn't make you look good.
So them being able to hurt him and his lack of ability to drop him in a single hit makes them not matter as a measuring stick?
IT makes them as much a measuring stick as say Thor and Zeus. Also the point is Superboy Prime is already stronger than more durable than Superman, one needed help from 3 people to move a planet, other did all by himself. Not to mention its SuperMAN Prime, which regardless of whether you agree or disagree, despite all the wikis you have given pointing to the contrary, is Superboy Prime during Countdown to Final Crisis when he had absorbed OAN energy, hence the different name, and hence the different costume. He wasnt called Superman Prime before that , not was he called superman prime after it, and the very next arc is Legion of 3 worlds.
Yet all these folks can tank a hit from Prime and they can all hurt Prime. Superboy isn't exactly pulling anywhere close to that weight class to boot. All the wikis? What?
You are lowballing, you are using his lowest showing in any given fight to determine how strong he apparently should be according to you, despite him regular showing being different. You are also using double standards, Prime has more feats to show he is at the very least extremely invulnerable to magic and no showing to contradict it, not even one, while Thor doesnt have that to show his superspeed, and you believe Thor is faster (despite having 5 evidence to the contrary) but wont agree about Prime. He was known as Superman prime in one series.
But the problem is Prime is called Superman Prime, Superboy Prime and what have you. One series?
Log in to comment