Unless Martian Manhunter can form a thought faster than the speed of light, he gets punched a couple hundred times before he can react.
Moving people in a picosecond (0.000 000 000 001 of a second)
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Also Martian Manhunter's telepathic attacks won't do much if Barry/Wally can just speed their thoughts up to be incomprehensible for J'onn.
Reading/Controlling minds is not the same as just blasting it.
Black Lantern J'onn couldn't even do anything to Barry when he sped up his thoughts, and Grodd's telepathic attacks have been negated by Wally before, as well.
OP didn't say which Flash. If it's Wally, he wins, if it's Barry, he loses -- only because Barry never really got the chance to acquire more of the speed force skill set that Wally has demonstrated.
@buckshot: That's true...but that would still take at least a couple seconds right? The only times I remember Martian Manhunter tagging Flash with mind-blasts were pretty much PIS or Wally holding back (albeit that is still a factor since this is an in-character fight).
Wally's been affected by MM's telepathy plenty of times, just like he has been Grodd's. The thing is, Wally usually isn't intentionally fighting J'onn (J'onn's done it just to wipe their memories before so they wouldn't stop him from sacrificing himself, for instance). If Wally were knowingly fighting him instead of working with him or getting surprised by it (ala your scan) then there's no reason to suggest he wouldn't speed up his thoughts when he outright knows it's a way to counter Telepathy, both from when Barry did it and when he's done it before -- Wally would obviously win the quick draw in this situation, as well.
Yep. Turning Flash into a god-like character and giving him new powers was stupid. In any case people didn't buy it - literally as sales of Flash show. No one takes him seriously as a major character - outside of these forums of course.
Yep. Turning Flash into a god-like character and giving him new powers was stupid. In any case people didn't buy it - literally as sales of Flash show. No one takes him seriously as a major character - outside of these forums of course.
Daredevil doesn't sell particularly well. Neither does Fantastic Four. Superman has had sales numbers around Flash's. So has Thor.
I don't understand what you're getting at, literally makes zero sense.
@gyprosetti: as powerful as he became (I assume you mean Wally?), he still has enough weaknesses to exploit to prevent him from really achieving the godlike status that most on these forums attribute to him. And the scans above that folks keep posting (from JLA 89) of Wally evacuating the city being nuked is not a good one to use to support Wally's speed, particularly when the narration clearly says "...a hairs breadth under the speed of light...". Twice it says that and folks around here insist the writer can't multiply. And they would be right. Regardless, he was under light speed on that one. This one might be a better feat to support Wally's speed:
Above, great reaction feat for Wally.
Below, a great flat out speed feat for Wally as he travels outside known space/time where death ceases to exist even on a conceptual level:
Yep. Turning Flash into a god-like character and giving him new powers was stupid. In any case people didn't buy it - literally as sales of Flash show. No one takes him seriously as a major character - outside of these forums of course.
Agreed. That being said, in character team miiiight take it, bloodlusted it's Flash's fight to lose.
Black Lantern J'onn couldn't even do anything to Barry when he sped up his thoughts, and Grodd's telepathic attacks have been negated by Wally before, as well.
OP didn't say which Flash. If it's Wally, he wins, if it's Barry, he loses -- only because Barry never really got the chance to acquire more of the speed force skill set that Wally has demonstrated.
I'm not recalling the fight, but did he attempt a mental blast? Maybe someone should post the fight so we can check it out. I really can't be bothered to, but if it was here I'd look.
@buckshot: That's true...but that would still take at least a couple seconds right? The only times I remember Martian Manhunter tagging Flash with mind-blasts were pretty much PIS or Wally holding back (albeit that is still a factor since this is an in-character fight).
A prime example :
Why would a psychic blast take a couple seconds? And why is it PIS if Flash has been taken down by telepathic attacks a number of times? I'm not sure the scan you posted supports you. It doesn't support your first point, that it would take a couple seconds. J'onn (not really J'onn) doesn't mind blast Flash instantly, but it's not like he was fighting just Flash or that it was the first thing he tried. He tried other powers before moving onto a mental attack, and when he did that, it worked. It doesn't support your second point, that it's PIS unless you're willing to provide an explanation. A mental attack working as a mental attack should, isn't PIS in my book. And it doesn't support your third point, that it's Flash holding back. Flash attacked J'onn and was ready to use his weakness against him. He may not have unloaded every attack in his arsenal, but he was doing what he thought would bring him victory. Him being blasted by a psychic attack in the midst of a fight isn't the same as him holding back. If Superman were fighting Martian Manhunter and while they were slugging it out, Supes got blasted, you wouldn't say Superman was holding back, he just got hit with something he has less defense against than most things. What this looks like to me is a prime example of martian telepathy working on Flash even while he's operating at high speeds.
Wally's TP resistance works just like every other Flash's does. At certain speeds, he's vulnerable; at the upper levels of his speed, he's not. In The Human Race, J'onn himself stated that he couldn't connect with Wally's mind because of the speeds at which his thoughts were moving while he was zipping around the universe. In other showings when Wally's not moving as fast (although there are honestly very few showings where he's moving as fast as he did in The Human Race), J'onn's TP has worked on him ---- including showings written by the same writers who wrote The Human Race. Barry Allen illustrated this very clearly in Blackest Night when he was psychically assaulted by the Black Lantern Martian Manhunter, and then increased the speed of his thoughts to block it out.
@buckshot: Here's the Blackest Night feat I was referencing:
I don't actually get what the difference is between mental blasts and dominating someone's mind, effectively. If you can't interact with someone's thoughts because of their speed I would imagine neither would work. Wally has done it to Grodd a few times before when he was intentionally speeding up his thinking, as well. I could go find them if you don't trust me on this one, but I'd rather not go to the effort.
This is the only time since Barry came back to life that he's even encountered telepathy -- though he's dealt with Grodd pre crisis, we tend to dump out silver age stuff.
@buckshot: Here's the Blackest Night feat I was referencing:
I don't actually get what the difference is between mental blasts and dominating someone's mind, effectively. If you can't interact with someone's thoughts because of their speed I would imagine neither would work. Wally has done it to Grodd a few times before when he was intentionally speeding up his thinking, as well. I could go find them if you don't trust me on this one, but I'd rather not go to the effort.
This is the only time since Barry came back to life that he's even encountered telepathy -- though he's dealt with Grodd pre crisis, we tend to dump out silver age stuff.
It's basically what I thought, he's not trying to destroy Flash's mind, he clearly references Flash's mental speed inhibiting his ability to manipulate his thoughts. The difference between manipulating and "blasting" seems intuitive to me so I'm having a hard time trying to articulate it. You might think of it like you trying to deal with an unruly person. You could try to talk them down from whatever it is their doing, or you could circumvent their part in the interaction entirely and just punch them in the face. It's a weak comparison, but I don't have time for a more thought out one. Basically, the information in Flash's head is moving too fast to be manipulated, but just blasting his mind as a whole skips the detailed work and shuts everything down at once. Another way of looking at it has has struck me, you could see it as a one way street. Reading a mind (or manipulating it) would require the psychic getting something from the mind to work with. Projecting psychic energy goes the other way and doesn't require anything from the mind other that it being there to be hit by a wave of psychic energy. Taking it to another form of energy, Vulcan can absorb and manipulate energy, but if for some reason he couldn't access the energy in one of his enemies, he could still blast them with his own. Whether you easily see the difference or not, it exists and has been shown in comics. It's frequently brought up in discussions of Storm and Emma Frost as the reason why though Storm's electrical activity in her brain can occasionally be a hindrance to location and communication by a psychic, Emma can and has simply blasted her psychically. It's why Xavier has said multiple times he has issue reading Mystique's mind but he can still hurt her directly (and even project simple images and communication into her mind). It's such a commonly accepted thing that even beyond those first two examples that popped into my mind I can find one more from comics this very week. It's certainly not the best example, but it's timely.
@buckshot: This distinction doesn't exist in DC, though. Do you think Black Lantern MMH, who has no morals and their entire goal is to kill all these heroes and take their hearts, is just jobbing when he can't assault Barry psychically? Or when Grodd can't harm Wally? Barry encountered MMH twice in that arc. The first time the telepathy rocked him, the second time Barry sped up his thoughts and MMH couldn't do anything. I think that's a clear enough distinction, in universe, when it comes to Flash vs MMH as it is in this thread.
@gyprosetti: as powerful as he became (I assume you mean Wally?), he still has enough weaknesses to exploit to prevent him from really achieving the godlike status that most on these forums attribute to him. And the scans above that folks keep posting (from JLA 89) of Wally evacuating the city being nuked is not a good one to use to support Wally's speed, particularly when the narration clearly says "...a hairs breadth under the speed of light...". Twice it says that and folks around here insist the writer can't multiply. And they would be right. Regardless, he was under light speed on that one. This one might be a better feat to support Wally's speed:
I would also like to point out that this scan is also a psuedo-anti telepathy feat, as they're controlling Kyle and WW before Wally stops them.
@buckshot: This distinction doesn't exist in DC, though. Do you think Black Lantern MMH, who has no morals and their entire goal is to kill all these heroes and take their hearts, is just jobbing when he can't assault Barry psychically? Or when Grodd can't harm Wally? Barry encountered MMH twice in that arc. The first time the telepathy rocked him, the second time Barry sped up his thoughts and MMH couldn't do anything. I think that's a clear enough distinction, in universe, when it comes to Flash vs MMH as it is in this thread.
Eh, I disagree, and since all the examples of Flash having his mind protected that I can think of involve manipulation and not outright destruction, and because even on this page is an example of telepathic blast affecting Flash ("shutting his neurons down like millions of light switches"), I'm going to continue to. The distinction also makes sense to me for DC as much as it does in Marvel, Valiant, or any other universe where I've seen it.
As for the Black Lantern situation, I'm not quick to call things "jobbing". A fair reading of the comic would show why (in story) J'onn wouldn't just mind wipe them. The Black Lanterns aren't there to just kill, they're there to provoke an incredible emotional response and then kill. J'onn destroying the Flash's mind would be the opposite of what he wanted since Flash wouldn't really be feeling anything then. Besides, J'onn had Flash at his mercy when he was pummeling Hal and didn't know it. J'onn could have killed him then as well, but he didn't. He could have blasted his brain right there when he already had control of it. Him not doing it doesn't mean he couldn't do it.
Grodd does telepathic blasts as well but they always show up as images. I dunno, I think you're splitting hairs unfairly.
That said it really doesn't matter. If it's Wally he can end the fight before the other two can react with speed steal. It's a pretty cut and dry matter of Wally wins and Barry loses.
Grodd does telepathic blasts as well but they always show up as images. I dunno, I think you're splitting hairs unfairly.
That said it really doesn't matter. If it's Wally he can end the fight before the other two can react with speed steal. It's a pretty cut and dry matter of Wally wins and Barry loses.
How am I splitting hairs unfairly if numerous comics draw the same distinction I do?
I don't think Wally is starting off at a speed that MM and Superman can't react to in any sort of in character battle. As for a speed steal, I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that the person's mind is still active, which would mean MM could still wage a psychic battle. Also, the way the Flash talked about taking Superman's speed, it didn't seem like it would be a permanent end to a fight (didn't Cheetah get her speed back when Flash stole it from her?) or something he'd be willing to do in just any situation.
Grodd does telepathic blasts as well but they always show up as images. I dunno, I think you're splitting hairs unfairly.
That said it really doesn't matter. If it's Wally he can end the fight before the other two can react with speed steal. It's a pretty cut and dry matter of Wally wins and Barry loses.
How am I splitting hairs unfairly if numerous comics draw the same distinction I do?
I don't think Wally is starting off at a speed that MM and Superman can't react to in any sort of in character battle. As for a speed steal, I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that the person's mind is still active, which would mean MM could still wage a psychic battle. Also, the way the Flash talked about taking Superman's speed, it didn't seem like it would be a permanent end to a fight (didn't Cheetah get her speed back when Flash stole it from her?) or something he'd be willing to do in just any situation.
Flash can speed steal indefinitely, as shown on Inertia. It also stops mind based powers from working, as Amazo was incapable of doing anything when Wally went all out despite having the entire JL's ability set, which includes GL rings, Heat Vision, Telepathy, phasing, all sorts of things that require only thought to work. He only allowed Inertia to be able to think and see in real time because he was punishing him for Bart's death. He's perfectly capable of controlling people's thoughts and reaction time, or atleast their speed, as he's speed up the entirety of the JL's ability to think and react, as well.
If you don't think Flash is going to speed steal or go fast despite knowing exactly who he's fighting against and having billion of times their reaction speed then you're jobbing him. I'm pretty sure Wally is quite aware of how Superman and MMH can paste him if he doesn't take it serious and Wally can think up to a billion scenarios in a nanosecond.
Flash also speed steals...frequently. I mean, he's done it for something as trivial as a wedding cake falling to the ground or bullets (which he's perfectly capable of just catching). Heck, he even outright thought of doing it to Superman just to get him to leave him alone once if not for the potential collateral damage. Wally, atleast, has the ability to end the fight before the other two can respond if he's up to it.
Grodd does telepathic blasts as well but they always show up as images. I dunno, I think you're splitting hairs unfairly.
That said it really doesn't matter. If it's Wally he can end the fight before the other two can react with speed steal. It's a pretty cut and dry matter of Wally wins and Barry loses.
How am I splitting hairs unfairly if numerous comics draw the same distinction I do?
I don't think Wally is starting off at a speed that MM and Superman can't react to in any sort of in character battle. As for a speed steal, I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that the person's mind is still active, which would mean MM could still wage a psychic battle. Also, the way the Flash talked about taking Superman's speed, it didn't seem like it would be a permanent end to a fight (didn't Cheetah get her speed back when Flash stole it from her?) or something he'd be willing to do in just any situation.
Flash can speed steal indefinitely, as shown on Inertia. It also stops mind based powers from working, as Amazo was incapable of doing anything when Wally went all out despite having the entire JL's ability set, which includes GL rings, Heat Vision, Telepathy, phasing, all sorts of things that require only thought to work. He only allowed Inertia to be able to think and see in real time because he was punishing him for Bart's death. He's perfectly capable of controlling people's thoughts and reaction time, or atleast their speed, as he's speed up the entirety of the JL's ability to think and react, as well.
If you don't think Flash is going to speed steal or go fast despite knowing exactly who he's fighting against and having billion of times their reaction speed then you're jobbing him. I'm pretty sure Wally is quite aware of how Superman and MMH can paste him if he doesn't take it serious and Wally can think up to a billion scenarios in a nanosecond.
Flash also speed steals...frequently. I mean, he's done it for something as trivial as a wedding cake falling to the ground or bullets (which he's perfectly capable of just catching). Heck, he even outright thought of doing it to Superman just to get him to leave him alone once if not for the potential collateral damage. Wally, atleast, has the ability to end the fight before the other two can respond if he's up to it.
I'm not "jobbing Flash" to say that I don't think in character he'd attack with so much speed that characters like Superman and J'onn won't even be able to think before he does anything. Flash knows how much of a threat (not just to himself but to bystanders as well) most of his enemies can be but he doesn't typically act as you've described. I have been curious about the control Flash has over his speed stealing though. Care to share some actual scans? (And while you're at it, I wouldn't mind some examples of Flash having "billions of times their reaction speed".) Your example of Flash thinking about stealing Superman's speed is the one I was referencing. The potential damage prevented him from doing such a thing in character even though it would easily solve his problem.
I'm not "jobbing Flash" to say that I don't think in character he'd attack with so much speed that characters like Superman and J'onn won't even be able to think before he does anything. Flash knows how much of a threat (not just to himself but to bystanders as well) most of his enemies can be but he doesn't typically act as you've described. I have been curious about the control Flash has over his speed stealing though. Care to share some actual scans? (And while you're at it, I wouldn't mind some examples of Flash having "billions of times their reaction speed".) Your example of Flash thinking about stealing Superman's speed is the one I was referencing. The potential damage prevented him from doing such a thing in character even though it would easily solve his problem.
You most certainly are by saying A: He won't use the upper limits of his speed and B: That J'onn will instantly go for the telepathy attacks to put him down. You're giving J'onn his best case scenario and specifically saying Wally plays it weak despite outright knowing every little thing about both Supes and J'onn. He'd have to be outright stupid to not actually, you know, give it his best effort. That said. I will provide you every feat you want.
Superman's best reaction speed, as far as I'm aware is nanosecond. I don't actually believe J'onn has a nanosecond reaction feat to his credit, but people assume he's equivalent to Superman so I'll just assume he does for ease's sake. Wally is capable of running through a billion combat strategy scenarios per nanosecond:
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Note, he says another billion, meaning the first time where he went through "All possible scenarios" was also a billion in a nanosecond. Don't want people trying to burn me on the panels being separated. Wally is clearly thinking at speeds a billion times Superman's best reaction speed, and these are each individual plans, not just quick thoughts or reactions, so it'd be lowballing to say it's only a billion times faster. If you calculated that that's a Zeptosecond to think of an entire battle scenario against Solaris.
People have also already posted the half a million people searched in a picosecond feat, which would only be a scant 500 million times their reaction speed, so if you don't believe the previous feat I guess I overexaggerated and it's only that much greater, but I believe you get my point. Flash has multiple picosecond combat feats and that's already thousands of times faster than either J'onn or Superman can speculatively operate at.
Speed steal. Wally can speed steal from a distance, just by thinking:
Wally's speed steal is practically instant -- even Amazo, who has copied Wally's speed precisely enough to keep up with him in the entire fight prior, is instantly rendered helpless and unable to use any powers(I can post the previous parts of the battle, if you need, but it's fairly obvious that Amazo copied his speed and beat his ass):
And please don't use this against Wally, pointing out how he doesn't always go straight to speed steal. It's a discredit to his character to just assume he'd let Supermand and J'onn beat them when he has a completely non-violent way to beat them. That's much more in character thab trying to beat his friends into unconsciousness.
Also, I would like to correct you about the Superman speed stealing panel. The only reason he doesn't steal Superman's speed is because he is already in flight, and doing so would send his invincible body careening into innocent civilians. Superman starts off this fight standing still, so it's hardly an issue:
As if it were a question, speed steal obviously works on Superman and I don't see why it would not work on J'onn:
Though Jay Garrick is neither as powerful with it or as fast with it as Wally.
Wally has also, without the rest of the JL knowing or consenting, altered their speed. I believe it's very, very clear that Wally can control anyone in the JL's speed, including J'onn and Superman as seen here:
Speed Steal would be a quick and non-violent way for Wally to win the fight. It's perfectly in character as he does it a lot. If you want me to dump him stealing bullet speeds, stealing lady flash's speed, stealing the planet's speed, stealing the speed from girdir, stealing a city sized spaceship's speed, whatever, I can. He's done it or attempted it over a dozen times, it's hardly his lesser used move (he IMPs less than he Speed Steals) I just don't think there's a legitimate argument the other way.
@dredeuced: Did I say that J'onn would instantly go for telepathy somewhere? It seems you've completely missed the purpose of me posting in this thread. Go back up and read through my posts. My position has not been "MM shuts off Flash's mind instantly and wins the fight," it's been that a psychic blast would work on Flash. That's basically all I've said. Telling me that I'm "giving MM his best scenario" and was "most certainly" saying that "J'onn will instantly go for TP" misses the point entirely. My stance has been about "does this work, or does it not?" and I come down on the side of it working. Application of the ability wasn't what I was here for.
As for all the speed stealing, what I was most curious about was not if Flash can do it or how often he has, but the mental state of the person he's frozen and the limits of the ability. For instance, Cheetah has reportedly regained her speed after Flash stole it, what's that about? Does Amazo remain immobile after that scene with Flash or does he start up again, and if so, how, and does that mean his mind was still active? While Superman is getting his speed stolen, his body is affected but he's still clearly capable of processing what's going on, wouldn't that mean his mind is still working? I know Flash can steal speed, but I've never been all that clear on what exactly that does.
And though you'd like me to not say anything about Amazo, I can't really do that, and that's mostly because I think you're reasoning could be better. You're saying "it's a discredit to his character to just assume he'd let Superman and J'onn beat him when he has a completely non-violent way to beat them"....but that also applies to Amazo, and it's an even more serious situation because Amazo is actually evil. You're trying to tell me it's in character for Wally to start off a fight like that right under a picture of him only resorting to that tactic after losing. I understand the plot reasons for him not doing such a thing (in that and other stories), but your justification seemed weak.
And just a thought or two on the thought speed comparison. The image of Flash lending speed to Wonder Woman shows he can perform such an act, but that he needs to do it for her and not for J'onn or Superman suggests to me that their difference in thought speed is not that huge. Also supporting that is that Superman has sped his mind up to Flash's level (the level where the world stands still) before. It's not his normal level of mental operation, but it's something he can easily do.
@buckshot: It seemed implied that you were stating MM would use his telepathy to beat Flash, despite several speedster showings that they can resist telepathy, which Citizebane expanded on in this thread.
The mental state is controlled by him. He can stop their thinking or enable it, like he does with his JL buddies (increasing their reaction and thinking speed as well as their movement speed) and Inertia.
Wasn't that Zoom that restored and amp'd cheetah's speed? Zoom's time manipulation allows him to counter Wally's speed steal, that's why neither Wally nor Garrick could speed steal him, and why he was also able to reverse Wally's speed steal on Inertia. If the Zoom and Cheetah teamup was what you're talking about, then that's the reason why. I believe Zoom is the only person who's ever countered or rescinded Wally's speed steal besides Wally himself (and maybe Garrick) -- but I COULD be wrong on this one, as I'm only well versed in The Flash series itself, and not as much in his crossovers.
Amazo was completely immobilized and useless. I believe in the next panel the JL comes in and Canary blasts him apart? My memory's hazy on this, I'll try to go look it up. If anyone knows the issue number exactly and is reading this, that'd be quite helpful
Wally has used his speed steal to open numerous fights. Such as Lady Flash:
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This was directly after he learned speed steal. He has had better showings with it since. Like when he encountered Girder and Murmur, and opened the fight with Girder by(also notes how it stops Girdir's constant pain. Not sure how it directly correlates to thinking, but it's something to consider):
Wally does not like fighting Girder because he's one of the less evil Rogues. He's just desperate to reverse his condition which leaves him in a constant state of pain and rust. Speed stealing is a non-violent way to pacify and neutralize him.
Wally opens a fight by speed stealing bullets just because he can(Cool, huh? in his own words):
Ever since Wally got the power post Walter West/Kadabra scenario, he uses it FREQUENTLY. He also tried it on Zoom after superspeed punches failed, but it doesn't work on Zoom. The only thing he does more is super fast punches, but unless you honestly think Wally's gonna try to use normal punches against Superman and Martian Manhunter...I mean, you'd have to think Wally is dumb or retarded or something. Wally's only chances of winning are speed stealing or pasting them with IMPs faster than they can react, disintegrating them with phasing(...I don't think Wally wants to kill Clark or J'onn) and I think Speed Steal is much more likely because A: He uses it far more often than he uses the attacking power he did against AntiMonitor, Mongul, Zum, and Professor Zoom and B: It's a non violent way to incapacitate Superman and J'onn. He probably wouldn't want to use an all out punch on either of them if he could help it.
Like I said, he's speed stolen something as big as a city sized spaceship and once drained the speed out of the Earth so Superman, Wonder Woman, and J'onn could attempt to move it(that scan where the three are pulling Wonder Woman's lasso as it's wrapped aruond the Earth, if you'll remember. Sorry, I don't have the scan on my computer right now and I'd have to go look it up). He can do it faster than someone with his own level of Speed, Amazo, could respond to it, and Amazo is obviously both stronger and faster than anyone else on the JL with his powerset. I have a hard time thinking Supes or J'onn are fast enough to counter his Speed Steal if Wally was serious about it.
Also, Superman has never sped up his perceptions to Wally's highest level, he did it once while Flash was casually eating and was surprised at how fast Flash still was (this was before superman got a number of powerups, anyhow, so it's not really relevant). As said, no one's ever shown Superman with anything better than a nanosecond reaction (able to react to flat light speed movement, which nanosecond speed allows). In that scan, he's only doing it to WW, true, but he's sped up Supes before (heck he was the one that gave Supes his first FTL feat, iirc, post crisis until superman was able to do it of his own will). Like I said, wally can think of a billion scenarios in the time it takes Superman or J'onn to react to anything (as said, J'onn has never shown FTL reactions that I'm aware of like Supes), or cover several kilometers looking for people in less than a picosecond. He'd have all the time in the world, relative to J'onn and Supes, to come up with a plan and enact it unless you want him to go slower than he's capable despite going up against the other two most powerful JL members.
@dredeuced: It was not implied, it was inferred, and inferred incorrectly.
Could you show me him stopping someone's mind completely and continually? I'm not trying to be difficult, just looking for an answer to something I've asked about for a while. The example with Amazo doesn't go the way you've described. Flash crawls his way to help and when he reaches his team he has just enough time to say a couple words to them before Amazo is already back in the fight and beating down on Firestorm. His speed steal bought him only moments, not a complete end to the fight or a cessation of what passes for Amazo's thoughts. It was JLA 23. I'm not sure about the Cheetah situation, which is why I asked, in order to learn. I'd appreciate scans or issue numbers if those can be found because no one's recall is perfect. Interestingly enough, in the image you posted with Flash and Girder, he says that he can keep him still "for a few moments."
You continue to use this line of thinking to support Flash opening with a speed steal: "but unless you honestly think Wally's gonna try to use normal punches against Superman and Martian Manhunter...I mean, you'd have to think Wally is dumb or retarded or something." If you really maintain this opinion, you'd have to say that Flash is stupid because he's been in situations against serious opponents and not started with this tactic. I understand sometimes characters hold back because of plot, but when you have examples like Flash with Amazo where it's not like a writer decided to not include the option at all, but has him use it only at the end of the fight, it comes across to me as part of his character and not a plot limitation. I'm not surprised he started a fight with it right after he learned how to do it. That makes sense. Him not using it in the exact sort of situation you say he'd have to be stupid not to, doesn't strengthen your case any.
My case is that Wally is fully aware that Superman and J'onn will not be affected by his normal hits nor KO'd particularly easily in general. Wally didn't outright start with it on Amazo because he attempted to do his normal tactic of blitzing him with attack, was countered by super speed, then resorted to speed steal. Unless Wally tries to blitz Superman and Martian Manhunter similarly, which would be silly given what he knows of them, then Speed Steal is his best option. He's speed stolen Inertia to the point where he was a motionless statue for several months. You'd think Amazo would kill him with his GL powers or heat vision or whatever if he was still thinking while Wally speed stole him, but maybe that's similar to Wally not just starting the fight with speed steal.
I similarly don't know the full story behind Cheetah. I believe Wally's main interaction with Cheetah was with a crossover with Wonder Woman and Zoom. I've never read it and from the scans people have shown (lots of people like to post cheetah beating up on Wally from that run around here) so I don't know the full context. Wally's speed steal would be useless in that situation, anyhow, as Zoom has shown he can undo it quite easily like he did with Inertia.
I don't see why Speed Steal would not stop thinking. Like I said, Wally has shown the ability to control the speed of thought of his compatriots, I don't see why speed stealing is any different. I also don't see the difference between mental blasts and mental manipulation, as both are just interfering with ones mind and Grodd's blast on Wally just appeared as harmless slideshows.
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