" you know Jack about superman". Outstanding argument
I'm not really going to get into the various times I've humiliated you in the past, so lets move past my " debatements" and " logicf***cker" questions and move straight to this one
2. How did the last time end " badly" for me? I don't recall debating you in a while. And definitely remember an easy win last time we debated
3. " I'm going to apply real world logic to my FAVOURITEST DC characters and ignore the same for Marvel ones"
So you are just going to ignore Gladiator fighting through a time stop for some vague , unclear indication of Supes and Barry's speed?
3." I'm going to post 90 scans of a character, who is the face of the company and had 4 comics per month , with more than two thousand appearances and ask the opposition to post an equal no of scans for a character who has never had his own solo, is almost always a side character, has an in comic explaination for his low showings and has a grand total of roughly. ......150 appearances"
" no this appears to be totally fair and unbiased debating and since quantity of showings are all that matter, I will now accept that superman is faster than Zoom( hunter) by that logic.
Nah! Just kidding. of course I'm going to ignore my own logic now!"
4." I'm going to post a scan of superman being tagged by a lightspeed object and then speculate about how hes FTL based on...dubious statements at best, nevermind the stuff in his own title at the same time where he faints from going FTL"
5." I'm going to talk about how a story that specifically talks about a nanosecond time dilation is now a picosecond worthy feat based on absolutely nothing at all beyond real world math applied to a guy who can fly and hear in space"
"I'm then going to ignore an entire careers worth of feats from fainting by going FTL before this nanosecond feat, to struggling at the speed of sound in a race less than year after this , to various instances of being unable to move in time stops through the 90s, to superman declaring hes slower than light and needing to be lent speed to achieve the same in....1998, to superman going all out only running even with "Im not FTL, only Wally is" Jay in the 2000s to once again, noted to being slower than light while hit by a lightspeed beam as late as....2008 was it?"
Oh and:
" I'm now going to accuse the opposition of using feats from the 80s alone"
Scans are here. Just another thread where your fanboyism was smashed to smithereens with thanks to @BlackStarOblivion
6." Im now going to declare superman to be faster than Walter west based on nothing at all,on a day he isnt trying, and when the question is asked as to how even Wally and supes have been shown running even in a "race" for a couple of panels in JLA 1, just as an example, I'm going to ignore my own logic about how this would mean supes is as fast as Wally, based on a couple of out of context panels"
7. " I'm going to talk about how supes is as fast as Thawne, who is as fast as Barry, and then almost certainly going to ignore the part where Barry left supes in the dust on a day he was really trying"
So just to get this straight. You feel Supes is as fast as Barry, from the Thawne feat.
If so , what happened the time Barry raced supes after his return?
Lol. In comment 48 you note Barry pwned Clark. In this comment you note Clark is as fast as Thawne who is as fast as Barry
Effing hilarious
How do you reconcile that with " Barry is as fast as superman?"
8." I'm going to talk about hoe Jay's ( dubious) nanosecond feat means hes now FTL and ignore the various instances he has flat out stated he isn't instead of noting how the nanosecond feat can easily be explained away by lightspeed-ish reflexes"
9." I'm now going to babble about how clark is faster than Jay, based on hilarious reasoning and stretching of hands, things that aren't even counted in real life races"
" im also almost certainly going to ignore the time in the human race where Supes was shown to be clearly lagging behind the various flashes ,despite flying, or the lightning saga where Jay was specifically identified as ' the fastest'"
Also bro, if you have quite fulfilled your daily " pwned by Grayghost" quota , why don't you go and debate with @RandomSid?
Your flash vs his hulk!
A showdown for the ages! I bet even you can't convince him that Wally stompes the Hulk!
so you really call that "win" in a debate ? lol I'm just waiting for other peoples comments not even bother to argue with you.I gave my scans you gave your words lets look how it ends
" I can't argue with LANGUAGE , y' know the thing humans use to communicate, so here are pictures, never mind the link the other guy posted to plenty of pictures"
Good grief. You never stop do you? At least have the decency to admit you can't counter any of my arguments, like in all those other threads
By all means lets have other posters judge the merits of the points put forward by both of us.
" I can't argue with LANGUAGE , y' know the thing humans use to communicate, so here are pictures, never mind the link the other guy posted to plenty of pictures"
Good grief. You never stop do you? At least have the decency to admit you can't counter any of my arguments, like in all those other threads
By all means lets have other posters judge the merits of the points put forward by both of us.
unlike you I prove my words with scans.I never judge or deny panel.I never said "aaah then why did Gladiator tagged by Wolverine" because I already know the answer
Hulk and Doomsday= characters with superstrength , durability and ( variable healing) factors
Gladiator and Superman= Characters with superstrength, durability , flight, Heat Vision, freeze breath, and most importantly SUPER SPEED
Contribution from Hulk and Doomsday in the fight= zero
Anyway Gladiator solos this via the whole fighting in stopped time thingy
^^^^^^
This.
This has been revisited a few times now. Gladiator is just plain faster than Supes.
I remain mystified as to why some folks still believe Superman is close to Gladiator in speed. Glads combination of speed and raw, brute striking force...
You really need to see this dude to believe him. Just in this comment check out the bit where he posts a scan claiming supes and thawne have the same speed ( and thawne speed=barry) and then says immediately after. .........that barry is waay faster than supes
A more hilarious dissection of his comment can be found in comment 49 of this very thread
Sorry for using yours scans, man.Just wanted to give you a heads up that you might have to deal with apoplectic fits of fanboyism now, although it's probably too late for that already
Let's return to our topic.Why Gladiator isn't faster than Superman ?
I believe Kallark could match with Clark in travel speed.Or even he could travel much faster than him
but
Travelling Speed isn't Processing/perceiving speed(the most important thing in a battle) also
Clark's words
If you look through window while you're moving so fast with car(for example you can travel at light - speed but you brain couldn't allow you to see and perceive the world at the same speed),you'll see that everything looks like moving really fast(for you). Because your vision couldn't permit you to see the world at the same speeds. If your brain is capable of accelerating your vision to the same speeds,you'll see everything moving slow even when you looked through that window at those speeds.That makes perceiving speed much better thing than combat speed because you can see every single punch of your enemy in slow motion
And Let's look at Clark's degree in Perceiving Speed
Travelling speed isn't processing/perceiving speed. But processing/perceiving speed isn't reaction speed either. A pro baseball player can perceive a 97 mph fast ball coming at him. That doesn't mean he can hit it. This is particularly true when we bring up the topic of sub light speed and FTL reaction feats. I'm not sure of the context of Clark's words in the scan above, but I don't know that it much matters either. Clark Kent, post Crisis, pre Flash point, has never shown consistent FTL reaction feats despite your claims.
I've paraphrased a lot of your response to @thegrayghost to make this conversation a tad more efficient.
Let's look at his statement:
Action Comics Weekly 642
On the verge of death, Hal Jordan stopped the time (stretched it within' a fraction of nanosecond (smaller time dilation than 1 nanosecond) into Eternity),Clark was able to move and talk like nothing changed.
That feat above gives him at least picosecond/s reaction speed. The difference is that Pre-Flashpoint Superman uses his speed in combat/perceiving much more consistently and regularly than Kallark .
Hal didn't stop time. The ring is pre-programmed for a multitude of responses in emergency situations. Slowing time to search out possible replacements for a dying lantern is one of them. Earlier in Action 642, Clark had been selected, and subsequently rejected by Abin sur's ring, complete with a mind wipe at the end of it. Later, after Jordan was shot in the chest by a corrupt military officer, nearing death, the ring went into action. Clark was (again) selected as a possible candidate. However, earlier when we spoke about this feat, you claimed that Clark was not powered up.
In fact, all of the candidates brought before the ring and Deadman, had been powered up, including Clark Kent:
Given that Clark is Superman who is already close to the speed of light, it was easy for Clark to cross the light speed barrier and have a conversation with Deadman in less than a nano second. By the way, a fraction of a nano second does not translate into a pico second. I don't know where you are getting that. Doesn't matter anyway, because Clark was powered up. Additionally, all the people that were candidates, were also powered up by the lantern energy, as they all performed miraculous feats thereafter. Below includes details that have not previously been seen in prior discussions:
So, clearly, Clark was powered up to react fast enough to move through time in Action 642, written in 1989 by the way. Additionally, only 22 issues later in Action 664 written in 1991, Clark could clearly not travel time on his own:
So...I'll repeat my question from the last time I tagged you in a response: even if the alleged nano second feat from Action 642 was valid, which scans I submitted above clearly show it is NOT, what happened only 22 issues later? Why couldn't Clark travel time in that issue? Clark does NOT consistently have FTL feats, either travel or reaction feats, that would put him on par with Gladiator.
You keep talking consistency for Clark. I'm not seeing it because it isn't there.
Gladiator only has 700 plus appearances. Clark has over 10, 000. Yet is is Gladiator, in his relatively few appearances who gets the nod on consistency with regard to FTL reaction feats.
You are quite mistaken.
Where Kallark has one showing of nanosecond reactions, Clark has 4 to his name. He can speed up his senses and react to fastest beings in DC like Walter Rudolph West and Eobard Thawne
The latter of which is equal to Barry Allen in terms of speed. If you look at all of Pre New 52 Superman's feats and not just his 1986 ones, there's more than enough evidence to suggest that he's faster and quicker to react than New-52 Superman not to mention he uses his speed more.
Gladiator not only has a legitimate scan of combat in nano seconds, he has a legitimate feat for combat during a time stop, or other wise, while traveling time:
The context of the scans above indicates that the time stop was actually a legitimate TIME STOP, not some play on words. Kallark indicates, "....you and your friends walk here as ghosts of time....and only I can accelerate my speed enough to interact with you..."
While Kallark has only a few feats like this, at least they are consistent. The same cannot be said for Clark Kent who has a large number of feats that indicate he can't even crack light speed.
I'm waiting at least 90 scans for Gladiator's speedblitz
Yeah, not going to spend much time on this. You submitted what you think is a nano second reaction feat by Clark....then sandwiched in X amount of feats, with no context I might add....and how many mention Clark is even over the speed of light, much less can move through time like Kallark?
Right.
Where Kallark has one showing of nanosecond reactions, Clark has 4 to his name. He can speed up his senses and react to fastest beings in DC like Walter Rudolph West and Eobard Thawne
The latter of which is equal to Barry Allen in terms of speed. If you look at all of Pre New 52 Superman's feats and not just his 1986 ones, there's more than enough evidence to suggest that he's faster and quicker to react than New-52 Superman not to mention he uses his speed more.
Also Jay could stratigaze in nanoseconds
and he's still capable of running at those speeds, he just can't push it for long. the reason he usually doesn't is that maintaining light speed for extended periods can cause his old body to have a heart attack. When he goes light speed or breaks the the time barrier he has to be much more careful than his younger counterparts and pace himself. IIRC he has to make sure he keeps his heart rate below 20,000 beats a minute. he's already had one heart attack that Jesse Quick saved him from. His perceptions and reactions are still that good however all the time.
Here's Jay talking about how he's so fast he can stretch real-time minutes and hours into relative days and years:
and Clark is slightly faster than Jay on foot
On the last panel Clark proved that he's slightly faster than him.
and then Jay cheated for Wally's life like he said.
I just want 2 things from you,If you want to debate with me
Answer me with feats and issues plus don't judge the panel.(If you're going to judge scans or the writer please ask those questions to them on twitter,don't bother me)
Don't write things if it isn't about our subject.Generally you're writing 300 paragraph of nonsense so don't bother me if you're still debating like this
Yeah...you are making a lot of connections based on speculation and no real concrete evidence.
First, Jay Garrick is not even faster than light. He had to speed steal Black Adam to hit the speed of light.
If he were faster than light, then he could travel time without the use of the cosmic treadmill. The other general methods of time travel in DC and Marvel are magic and tech. Wally does it with speed. Wally made this statement:
Wally could routinely travel time under his own speed. You have to cross light speed to travel time on speed. Notice Jay's comment at the lower right of the next scan:
If Jay was faster than light like Wally, then he would not have needed the cosmic treadmill to travel time. Additionally, Wally didn't start even touching the speed of light until Zero Hour and Terminal Velocity. Notice his comment about the other speedsters in relation to him:
So, Wally just started touching the light speed barrier and he was faster than them by a nose. This squares with the scans from above that clearly show they couldn't touch light speed and could not travel time. Therefore, the feat you submitted of Jay strategizing in a nano second (which, by the way....means nada as they were supposedly strategizing....not actually reacting in that time frame....should be dismissed as poor writing as it is not consistent with his other showings. I notice a few scans you submitted where the narration seemed to suggest time was stopped. It wasn't, particularly when you consider that the narration in both those feats clearly said....LIKE time was frozen....
Context really does apply. Max Mercury sped himself up to interact with Wally West in Flash 91. Notice although the world appeared frozen around them, they were clearly under the speed of light. Additonally, Max could only hang near the speed of light for a while....y'know Max, the same guy that Wally was a nose faster than in the feat above...the same as John Quick and.....Jay Garrick:
Jay Garrick is not faster than the speed of light. Therefore, you should revise your view regarding Clark's alleged FTL speed because it doesn't exist.
Additionally, Clark has shown, consistently after the original Crisis, that he could not crack the speed of light:
Gallery
Action Comics 591, 1987
Gallery
Superman, vol. 2, first five, issue 61, last four, Superman vol.2, issue 73 from 1991 and 1992
Notice above, Waverider travels freely through time, while Clark is dependent on other characters in both magazines to move through time.
Gallery
Superman: Man of Steel 29 (1994) Superman appears to be moving in slow motion during time dilation effect
As it turns out, the character with the time dilation device was only testing Clark, as he does from time to time, and allowed Clark to get to him and destroy the device. Notice, despite maximum efforts, Clark appears to moving in slow motion to his opponent. Below, from JLA Classified 21 (1998), Clark freely admits that he is not faster than light:
Below are scans from Superman, vol. 2, issues 191 (first 7 scans). Notice he cannot quite achieve the speed of light, and only with the help of his "otherworldly friend" was he finally able to escape the black hole. The last scan, from Superman, vol. 2, issue 195 (last scan), Superman again says he is almost at the speed of light. These issues were written in 2003:
Gallery
Then again, in Justice League of America (2007), again, the statement is made that Clark cannot go beyond light speed and Clark's statement to Diana from JLA Classified 50 (2008), is a clear indicator that Clark is not faster than light speed.
As I said I'd already addressed his response in 49.
Since he asked other posters to judge our exchange,
Care to judge who won the debate between me and dorukesin? :)
other than that , I'd just like to note that Jay, just like superman has gone on record specifically saying hes slower than light, JSA vol 1 20, just as an example so you needn't go into so much trouble proving he's slower, with all the time travel feats
Another thing. Kallark has more like 150 appearances than 700.
@deathsdoor726: Eh that was a weaker version of superman, not using his speed properly at that
also DD only tagged him because " plot"
Also the next time Doomsday turned up , Soloed the league cause "plot" , Supes going berserk on him made him bleed just fine before he caught his punch ( which he couldn't upto this point) and beat him down
basically no version of Doomsday posseses speed , some versions are portrayed as stronger but not so muvh that a one sided blitz doesn't hurt them
As I noted earlier, both DD and Hulk are meaningless in this fight
@thegrayghost: Doomsday may be slower but he adapts quickly I think he could tag superman after awhile but I never saw superman hurting him but I did see doomsday giving him a compound fracture in his arm surviving a huge nuke made with apocalypse tech then coming out from being buried in the ground and wrecking superman again
Can you give me a few scans of him actually hurting doomsday not just hitting him
1. Check the first time he uses HV , and all the succeeding punches. DD is clearly shown in pain each time.
Its just that DDs attacks are shown to be more powerful
2. Its clear that DDs speed is VASTLY slower than supes, and he can be hurt by supes' blows.
Under such circumstances ,supes losing to him is utter PIS
3. " he may be slower , but he adapts quickly" is pretty much the same argument that can be used for Slade, a character with no speed feats on that scale other than " tagging faster guy", getting blitzed by Wally.....and then "adapting to his attacks" , as many of their fights go.
So your argument basically boils down to " Guy with no speed feats whatsoever , who was getting blitzed just fine earlier.....reacts to guy with speed feats for no reason ....other than plot"
Well in that case, is Slade FTL? How about Batman? Heck nightwing?
Plenty of non speedsters tag speedsters. All of these instances are PIS, especially the ones where they for some strange reason , manage to react AFTER getting blitzed
4. Oh and one more thing, Supes made DD outright bleed in DD wars, his very next appearance and as it is, Supes in HP was a much weaker version than he would become later
Superman and hulk take this, Only on the condition that once Doomsaday is down for the count he is considered out of the battle. Superman takes Gladiator who loses confidence after superman , who never starts close to full strenght , tanks a punch , after which superman KO's him or at least BFRs him. Hulk meanwhile should on his own be able to take Doomsday as he will get increasingly stronger. Superman will tag in to beat him. Even if Glads comes back superman and hulk should have finished Doomsday by then (as long as he cannot reincarnate) and double team Glads.
As I said I'd already addressed his response in 49.
Since he asked other posters to judge our exchange,
Care to judge who won the debate between me and dorukesin? :)
other than that , I'd just like to note that Jay, just like superman has gone on record specifically saying hes slower than light, JSA vol 1 20, just as an example so you needn't go into so much trouble proving he's slower, with all the time travel feats
Another thing. Kallark has more like 150 appearances than 700.
Other than that, good post
Thanks!
As much as I appreciate dorukesin's perspective, generally I disagree with how he goes about his appraisals. Generally, he knows what he's talking about; he can cite issue after issue. I think I just disagree with how he arrives at some of his conclusions, no disrespect to him in the least bit.
And....as a general rule of thumb, I tend to agree with much of what you say :). You are the only person on these forums that understand how time travel (under one's own speed) places a character on a different level of speed. Not sure why people don't understand that concept. :(
JSA vol 1 issue 20? Cool. I'll have to pick it up.
@blackstaroblivion: best way is to download to your PC then use the desktop function to upload pic. Everything seems out of whack lately, makes me wonder if it because of that new scan rule.
My image page also take a while , granted I have some gif, because Swag.
@blackstaroblivion: Can follow JesterSmiles's friendly advice, wait a few hours or post it in the CV bugs forum, occasionally uploading images don't work the way they should unfortunately and is just a site glitching issue. There might even already be a thread about it there since these things tend to hit a few users at once. Sorry can't help more.
best way is to download to your PC then use the desktop function to upload pic. Everything seems out of whack lately, makes me wonder if it because of that new scan rule.
My image page also take a while , granted I have some gif, because Swag.
Can follow JesterSmiles's friendly advice, wait a few hours or post it in the CV bugs forum, occasionally uploading images don't work the way they should unfortunately and is just a site glitching issue. There might even already be a thread about it there since these things tend to hit a few users at once. Sorry can't help more.
Thanks for the advice!
Sounds like it's a little glitchy. I'm sure it will clear itself up.
If Superman fights seriously, he could end Team 2. If Hulk is angrier than ever, or at most World Breaker Mode, he could end Team 2. If Gladiator had more confidence than ever, he could end Team 1. And if Doomsday wasn't such a stupid character, he could have better stories. I'd say Team 1 wins after a good battle with Gladiator, who would lose confidence the longer he fought. And Doomsday, he'd be more smashed than he's ever been smashed before, thanks to the duo-smashing power of Superman and Hulk.
@blackstaroblivion: I dont comment often but I look at the cv forums pretty regulary and I feel it is my responsibility to acknowledge a good debater such as you. I find your respect to others very respectable.
I dont comment often but I look at the cv forums pretty regulary and I feel it is my responsibility to acknowledge a good debater such as you. I find your respect to others very respectable.
Hulk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>doomsday, AKA the cheap hulk rip off. Hulk and superman could both solo, together is beyond overkill, well maybe not solo darkseid but either one alone has a decent shot at beating him.
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