@dorukesin1: can you explain?
Superman and Green Lantern (Hal) vs Silver Surfer
@dorukesin1: can you explain?
his ring automatically manipulates the time in emergency situations,got nanosecond reaction like surfer,could phase,could phase his blasts through his enemys body and his blasts k.o'd characters like Parallax,Ion,Ganthet,Amazo(while having the durability of whole justice league including Superman's) ,could open a portal through Anti Matter universe(Positive Matter can't exist in an Anti-Matter universe. They explode immediately upon entry.) , got autoshields which could tank Supernova's like nothing and faster than the Flash and cannot be phased through etc. etc.
They're roughly equal with Norrin but I always bet my money to Hal in Surfer vs Green Lantern.Vine people don't know and really underestimating Lanterns,but John or Hal either could deal with the whole league(John already did)
@20damon: Someone is still spreading mis information, I see. Surfer CANNOT just run all over Superman.
. Entities ranging from the Parasite to the Mageddon Warhead (who famed writer Grant Morrison-the author of the story arc that introduced this cosmic threat-stated is "the primordial annhilator" capable of literally destroying EVERYTHING) were not able to INSTANTLY drain Kal; it is doubtful that Radd's draining powers are so much more "special" than those beings that he could do what they could not. And, needless to say, Supes didn't just kindly float around and LET them "drain" him (what, you think this FTL'er-with morals off-is not going to keep Surfer busy with blistering blows to his face)?? Since they weren't able to INSTANTLY "drain" him he had more than enough power to weather their attacks and beat them-and he can do the same to Radd. Not to mention, he can vibrate to intangibility, as he did in Superman issue 175, which made all of Doomsday's attacks-punches, fire breath and eyeball energy beams-pass right through Kal, and Superman issue 170 when Mongul and Mongal's energy blasts went through his vibrating body. The intangibility gambit could also render several other Surfer tricks (red sun, kryptonite. energy blasts, etc.) moot as well, since in the intangible state Kal is like a ghost, and free from harm. In the next post, in fact, I'll display all the ways Supes has-often more than once-resisted all of Radd's tricks.
By category:
Transmutation/Matter Manipulation-There were quite a few to choose from, but I'm mentioning the following two (the double sized "JLA: Primeval" and the DC wide story arc that featured Neron and Death Goddess Blaze fighting for control of the Nether Realms) because they feature him not only resisting ANY ol' matter manipulation, but MAGICAL ones! In the JLA story, Supes resisted it from a being named Disciple who was powered by several ancient Gods, yet Supes' control of his own molecules is so complete that he resisted the villain's POINT BLANK MAGICAL TRANSMUTATION RAYS-even as his team mates Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Diana Wonder Woman, and Wally West Flash could not-eventually grabbed his power staff and defeated him. In the other instance Kal resisted being transmuted into a demon by Blaze who had magical control over the very reality of her realm---yet Kal shook off her power through his extraordinary control over his molecules (control so complete he can will them to FTL speeds, invisibility, and intangibility) sheer endurance and will power (which had never before been done by ANYONE) and went on to beat her. So the Man Of Steel not only resisted transmutation, but MAGICAL transmutation as well, killing two myths (the old "magic is an instant win" one) with one stone! I just don't see Surfer's powers being SOOO much more "special" than those beings that he could achieve what they could not.
Red Sun- when it comes to Red Sun Radiation, it does not make Superman INSTANTLY DROP; in fact, it doesn't make him drop at all. While this will-EVENTUALLY-bring him down to human level, Superman generally has so much power stored up that that takes a LOOONNNG time to happen-and before that occurs, Supes has usually won his battle. Examples include Superman issue 480 with him surviving IMMERSION in a Red Sun due to the Eradicator, and Action Comics 487 when-despite SIMULTANEOUSLY receiving blistering blasts of Red Sun Radiation-while in the middle of a Sun Eater-AND an explosion of an entropy bomb (described as fifty times as big as Kepler's Supernova)-Kal withstood it! So this attack is NOT a "cinch win" for the Silver Surfer
Kryptonite-This is not an "instant win"-this substance slowly reduces the Kryptonian from 100%, to 70% and so on, to human level---THEN it kills him. There is pain during this process, of course, but it takes a while-and there are too many instances of Kal fighting through this and eventually winning to go through here (not to mention he could go intangible and make the whole thing moot, anyway).
Telepathic Assault-Kal has resisted this many, MANY times including resisting it from Eradicator in Superman issue 480, the White Martian Protex in JLA issue 4, Despero in JLA issue 118, and powerful telepath Captain Comet in Action Comics issue 12---so TP against Superman is NOT a "cinch win" for Norrin (unless someone wants to argue that Radd's TP is somehow more "special" than ALL those people I mentioned).
Durability-Many, MANY feats can be used, so I'll just pick two-to mention the Meggadon Warhead again, this device AT MINIMUM was capable of vaporizing half a galaxy, but Supes not only resisted being drained, but tanked every impact this thing threw at him with no harm whatsoever---then actually SMILED afterward in JLA issue 41; and in Superman issue 153 became the first being EVER in the history of the universe to defeat an "unbreakable" Imperiex Probe-after tanking blasts from the construct that was capable of vaporizing a Solar System.
There's more-LOTS more-but this should be sufficient to show that anyone claiming Surfer can just run over Superman, or that Kal doesn't have an equally good shot to beat Surfer-is guilty of willfully ignoring information because either they "like" Surfer better, or are one of those people that once they pick a side will stick by it no matter WHAT type of new information they receive.
Superman by HIMSELF can defeat Surfer---with Hal, it's overkill.
Can GL make a barrier to block radiation from the red sun? From what I'm seeing that's the main reason it's being said SS wins. If GL can't then SS has a good shot
Hal can just drain that red sun,he can protect Clark from draining ,mental assoult and being bfr'd etc.
@20damon: Someone is still spreading mis information, I see. Surfer CANNOT just run all over Superman.
. Entities ranging from the Parasite to the Mageddon Warhead (who famed writer Grant Morrison-the author of the story arc that introduced this cosmic threat-stated is "the primordial annhilator" capable of literally destroying EVERYTHING) were not able to INSTANTLY drain Kal; it is doubtful that Radd's draining powers are so much more "special" than those beings that he could do what they could not. And, needless to say, Supes didn't just kindly float around and LET them "drain" him (what, you think this FTL'er-with morals off-is not going to keep Surfer busy with blistering blows to his face)?? Since they weren't able to INSTANTLY "drain" him he had more than enough power to weather their attacks and beat them-and he can do the same to Radd. Not to mention, he can vibrate to intangibility, as he did in Superman issue 175, which made all of Doomsday's attacks-punches, fire breath and eyeball energy beams-pass right through Kal, and Superman issue 170 when Mongul and Mongal's energy blasts went through his vibrating body. The intangibility gambit could also render several other Surfer tricks (red sun, kryptonite. energy blasts, etc.) moot as well, since in the intangible state Kal is like a ghost, and free from harm. In the next post, in fact, I'll display all the ways Supes has-often more than once-resisted all of Radd's tricks.
By category:
Transmutation/Matter Manipulation-There were quite a few to choose from, but I'm mentioning the following two (the double sized "JLA: Primeval" and the DC wide story arc that featured Neron and Death Goddess Blaze fighting for control of the Nether Realms) because they feature him not only resisting ANY ol' matter manipulation, but MAGICAL ones! In the JLA story, Supes resisted it from a being named Disciple who was powered by several ancient Gods, yet Supes' control of his own molecules is so complete that he resisted the villain's POINT BLANK MAGICAL TRANSMUTATION RAYS-even as his team mates Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Diana Wonder Woman, and Wally West Flash could not-eventually grabbed his power staff and defeated him. In the other instance Kal resisted being transmuted into a demon by Blaze who had magical control over the very reality of her realm---yet Kal shook off her power through his extraordinary control over his molecules (control so complete he can will them to FTL speeds, invisibility, and intangibility) sheer endurance and will power (which had never before been done by ANYONE) and went on to beat her. So the Man Of Steel not only resisted transmutation, but MAGICAL transmutation as well, killing two myths (the old "magic is an instant win" one) with one stone! I just don't see Surfer's powers being SOOO much more "special" than those beings that he could achieve what they could not.
Red Sun- when it comes to Red Sun Radiation, it does not make Superman INSTANTLY DROP; in fact, it doesn't make him drop at all. While this will-EVENTUALLY-bring him down to human level, Superman generally has so much power stored up that that takes a LOOONNNG time to happen-and before that occurs, Supes has usually won his battle. Examples include Superman issue 480 with him surviving IMMERSION in a Red Sun due to the Eradicator, and Action Comics 487 when-despite SIMULTANEOUSLY receiving blistering blasts of Red Sun Radiation-while in the middle of a Sun Eater-AND an explosion of an entropy bomb (described as fifty times as big as Kepler's Supernova)-Kal withstood it! So this attack is NOT a "cinch win" for the Silver Surfer
Kryptonite-This is not an "instant win"-this substance slowly reduces the Kryptonian from 100%, to 70% and so on, to human level---THEN it kills him. There is pain during this process, of course, but it takes a while-and there are too many instances of Kal fighting through this and eventually winning to go through here (not to mention he could go intangible and make the whole thing moot, anyway).
Telepathic Assault-Kal has resisted this many, MANY times including resisting it from Eradicator in Superman issue 480, the White Martian Protex in JLA issue 4, Despero in JLA issue 118, and powerful telepath Captain Comet in Action Comics issue 12---so TP against Superman is NOT a "cinch win" for Norrin (unless someone wants to argue that Radd's TP is somehow more "special" than ALL those people I mentioned).
Durability-Many, MANY feats can be used, so I'll just pick two-to mention the Meggadon Warhead again, this device AT MINIMUM was capable of vaporizing half a galaxy, but Supes not only resisted being drained, but tanked every impact this thing threw at him with no harm whatsoever---then actually SMILED afterward in JLA issue 41; and in Superman issue 153 became the first being EVER in the history of the universe to defeat an "unbreakable" Imperiex Probe-after tanking blasts from the construct that was capable of vaporizing a Solar System.
There's more-LOTS more-but this should be sufficient to show that anyone claiming Surfer can just run over Superman, or that Kal doesn't have an equally good shot to beat Surfer-is guilty of willfully ignoring information because either they "like" Surfer better, or are one of those people that once they pick a side will stick by it no matter WHAT type of new information they receive.
Superman by HIMSELF can defeat Surfer---with Hal, it's overkill.
LOL.
@dorukesin1: How much can he absorb? SS can dish out energy
@ghostrider2: On a previous thread involving Superman and Surfer, I mentioned some of these same things to you---things that you could not refute (you ended up admitting "no one can argue" against my points). So what are you "LOL"ing about?
Since I handily batted back every thing you claimed would be a a "cinch win" for Radd, I would think you would have had enough. Unless you are "LOL"ing in grudging agreement, you should move on.
@theonewhoknows: it's funny how he did all that but when it comes to SS everything is a joke.
@ghostrider2: Wha? your post doesn't really make any sense. Could you please elaborate?
@MrDirector786 said:
I still say Silver Surfer would win.
@theonewhoknows: read what you posted.
@ghostrider2:This is your final chance to make sense, then you're going to be put back on the "too clueless/obnoxious/non sensible to be bothered with" list.
I have NO idea what you're talking about, and I really do try to make an effort to comprehend what people post to me, even if the person disagrees with me.
I am QUITE aware of "what I posted", since I am the one who in fact posted it. The problem is I have no idea what YOU are attempting to indicate. I have displayed (with often multiple examples) of how Kal has resisted every one of Radd's efforts, and in a previous thread, as I said, you were unable to refute what I said, and admitted as such.
So WHAT you are going on about now, I don't know. So take your time; reach DEEP; and explain to me what the point of your "LOL" was (since you weren't able to refute a single thing I posted, just like last time) and explain what you mean by "---when it comes to SS everything is a joke"---because I have NO idea what you're trying to say.]
In the meantime, what I said stands---Superman by HIMSELF can beat Surfer; adding Hal is an overkill.
@theonewhoknows: so what you posted make sense.Like i care where you put me.
@ghostrider2: Al right, then, no one can say I didn't try to give you a chance to explain whatever the *&%+ you were going on about. Your last post shows-just like I thought-that you HAVE no point, and-just like last time-you can't refute a single thing I said.
Comic fans. You gotta love 'em.
@theonewhoknows: do you want me to post ways SS could kill Superman?
@ghostrider2: You did that in the previous thread we were on concerning this subject---let me refresh your memory of how that worked out.
dited by TheOneWhoKnows (1754 posts) - 5 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio
@ghostrider2: Ah, yes---I've been WAITING for someone like you to come along and spout the SURFER RULES, SUPERMAN HAS NO CHANCE party line. You truly believe what you have posted, don't you? EXCELLENT! Then you can be dealt with in the manner your kind SHOULD be dealt with. Time to go to work!
You are having pronoun trouble, because judging by what you have posted, it is clear that actually, YOU are the one that doesn't read many (if any) SUPERMAN comics. Let's take your diatribes point by point:
Surfer has shown "planetary" matter manipulation? that's nice (in fact---awwww---that's SWEET; you really think you have a winner don't you? of COURSE you do). Superman has resisted matter manipulation many times, but the best example to use is when he resisted it from Blaze (a being powerful enough to challenge Neron for control of the underworld and WIN). She had complete, MAGICAL control of the very reality of her own REALM-quite a bit larger than "planetary"-and he resisted her attempts to transmute him through sheer endurance and will power. Blaze also hurled several devastating MAGICAL energy blasts at him, enacted a MAGICAL spell that encased him in stone (which he eventually shattered), and plunged him in the lava lakes of this MAGICAL dimension. Yet he withstood all this and went on to defeat her---something that had not been accomplished before, EVER, by anyone. There is another I give of him resisting not only transmutation, but MAGICAL transmutation on page two of this thread (killing two "that's a cinch defeat for Superman" myths with one stone)!
Surfer has "planetary + level energy blasts" and "he destroys planets with a wave of his hand"? KEWL! Then---you got me! Supes is TOAST! It's sooooo over---this means Kal has NO CHANCE! Why did I ever start this, and----well, ACTUALLY:
In Superman issue 153, Superman became the first being EVER in the history of the universe to defeat an Imperiex Probe (I mentioned this in a prior post and during this battle, he tanked a blast from the construct that was capable of vaporizing a solar system. But compared to "planetary level" (snicker!) that's not all that impressive, right (rolls eyes). Not to mention-survived being at ground zero of an imploding sun eater in Adventures Of Superman issue 477; In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, tanked a ground zero explosion of the entire PLANET of Calaton equal to "a million nuclear bombs" according to the energy being Waverider; and absorbed the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device AT MINUMUM capable of vaporizing half a GALAXY in JLA issue 41. According to famed writer Grant Morrison, who wrote this story arc, Mageddon is "the promordial annihilator" capable of literally destroying EVERYTHING. Yet after taking the impact of this thing, Kal suffered no harm whatsover---and actually SMILED afterwards! There's more (MUCH more), but I think these incidents prove the point.
Supes has travelled through time as well-don't know what THAT'S suppose to prove(???) He can do the same to Surfer, when he was Norrin Radd and kill him with morals off.
On prior posts I gave not just one or two, but SEVERAL instances of Kal resisting TP from POWERFUL TP'ers, yet here you are bringing that up again as if it's some kind of CINCH WIN for Surfer(D'oh)! Supes can vibrate to an intagible state as well, so if that happened it would be a stalemate so NO advantage here (and ANOTHER D'oh)!
Superman resisted the pull of a black hole that BY SUPRISE in space opened up directly below (inches) from his feet (and he was fighting at the time, yet he withstood it even though it was an ambush)! This was sprung on him by an advanced alien (Ht'ros) war technology in Action Comics Annual number 7. Not to mention in the double sized "JLA/JSA-Virtue/Vice" he went through a black hole, and in JLA: Created Equal, ALSO goes through a black hole (though the story is somewhat confusing--it may be an elseworlds, I'll have to double check).
Superman has FTL and nano second reaction and uses it all the time (UNLIKE Surfer who while he has great TRAVEL speed, there is great debate on his COMBAT speed). There are SO many examples that I don't know where to begin; I'm tired of typing so for now, since I have batted back everything else at you, I'll rest for now.
Now, if after all this you continue to say a Surfer win is a CINCH---you will have revealed yourself as nothing more than a typical blind, partisan poster (I'm not, because even though I am advocating for Superman, I have REPEATEDLY STATED that it is legit that Surfer could win). Please susprise me, and concede that a Surfer victory is not the "sure thing" you thought it is.
#133 Posted by GhostRider2 (4268 posts) - 5 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio
@theonewhoknows: dude i read Superman today lol.And he is going down hard.
#134 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (1754 posts) - 5 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio
@m_man: @pooty: Oh, pooty, and ESPECIALLY YOU, mister or ms. "Superman has NEVER used his phasing offensively and nothing suggests he can (Oooooh! Such, strong, DECISIVE statements!) just one more thing! All this attempted lowballing of Superman inspired me to dig out some of my Supes comic stash, and sure enough, there it was: In the Return Of Superman (this was his comeback after the world thought Doomsday had killed him) Superman used his speed to vibrate his arm fast enough to reach an intangible state, placed it into the Cyborg Superman's body, then re solidified and vibrated his arm again , shattering the Cyborg's body into hundreds of shards and pieces. SOOOO, there's THAT (D'OH!)
#136 Posted by TheOneWhoKnows (1754 posts) - 5 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio
@ghostrider2: Yep, just like I thought---despite me matching everything you CLAIMED was an advantage over Superman, you come back with "he's going down hard". Obviously, facts and feats mean nothing to you; you are one of those people who willfully ignore those type of things because you "like" Surfer better. Dissapointing---but typical.
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#137 Posted by GhostRider2 (4268 posts) - 5 months, 15 days ago - Show Bio
@theonewhoknows: the one who knows, no one can argue.
So as you can see, I don't need you to "post ways SS can kill Superman" because we've already been through this---and you LOST.
BADLY.
You know, you should really quit while you're BEHIND.
@theonewhoknows: so SS has no advantage over Superman?
@theonewhoknows: Since when can Superman just go intangible to ignore kryptonite or red sun radiation? Especially when the Surfer claims he can dish it out in such doses as to take down Gladiator. Gladiator didn't seem to fancy his chances and with the energy output the SS has, i don't doubt that claim.
@ghostrider2: Maybe severe reading comprehension difficulties is your issue? As you can see in the post I reprinted, I did not say Surfer has NO chance in defeating Kal---the point of my post is to point out that people like you who claim that Radd can just run all over Supes are incorrect (and I gave detailed, point by point, often with MULTIPLE examples accompanying my claims). Or did you not see the line where I state "---even though I am advocating for Superman I have REPEATEDLY STATED that is legit Surfer could win"?
That is the problem with people like you---you are apparently so FAN, not FACT driven, that you can't seem to grasp that there are TWO people involved in a given battle, and the person facing your fave is not going to just stand there with a dull look on their face while your fave does whatever they want to do. And in the case of Superman-a being with nano second combat speed and reaction time, it is sheer folly to state-FOR SURE-that Radd will be able to attack Superman before Superman attacks Surfer.
@theonewhoknows: calm down i wasnt even serious.90% of battle board knows who wins.SS and Superman are not in the same league.Did you know SS is also nanosecond?
@20damon: Gladiator is not Superman, number one (I have not seen a feat of him vibrating his molecules like Supes, clear evidence that there are things Kal can do that he can't). Number two, I gave you examples of what happens when Kal vibrates-his intangilbe state doesn't magically not work on a red sun or kryptonite just because you apparently "like" Surfer better and don't like that this tactic is an effective counter. Number three, as I indicated even if (A) Surfer did manage to turn the sun red it is NOT an INSTANT KO that IMMEDIATELY causes Superman to instantly drop to the floor screaming (and I gave examples proving it) and (B) Kryptonite is not an instant win, not only for the reasons I stated (and as demonstrated when, in Adventures Of Superman issue 609, he survived a nuke while simultaneously covered in Metallo's Kryptonite dust during a battle with a group of villians that included Mongul, the Master Jailer and Bizarro, and went on to defeat all of them) but, only kryptonite from Kal's particular universe hurts him. So if they were fighting in the Marvel Universe, or a neutral one, it is probable that Surfer couldn't create the correct kind anyway.
Surfer is very powerful---but you need to realize that due to the examples I have layed out he is NOT able to just walk all over Superman in any way, shape, or form.
@theonewhoknows: I didn't say it was a walk over Superman, i said that SS might be THE worst opponent for him, and he doesn't need to turn the sun red, he stated he could hit Gladiator with a focus blast of radiation. There's no shame at all in a certain character (in this case literally) being your favourite's kryptonite. Strange vs Hulk for example, Strange simply has Hulk's number. Superman has very specific weaknesses and Surfer, above just about anyone else can both sense and exploit these in a manner that very few could do.
@ghostrider2: Superman uses combat speed WAAAAAAY more than Surfer (who is great shakes at TRAVEL speed) so I put my money on Kal. If Surfer is nano second and Supes is nano second, then it defies logic to claim-FOR SURE-that Surfer will be able to strike first.
As far as claiming "90%" of the battle board knows who wins", that is a moot point even if that were true (since a glance at both this thread and the previous thread I reposted my prior posts from show that is NOT true). A majority of teen age girls thinks that Justin Beiber is more talented than The Beatles and Stevie Wonder. A majority of tea party republicans think our current president was not born in this country and is a muslim, even after 7 years of concrete evidence that those notions are patently false. And at various times throughout history, majorities thought that the earth was flat, slavery was perfectly fine, and that treating women like chattel is the natural order of things (in fact, some people STILL think those last two insanities).
That is why what a "majority" thinks cannot be used as the end all, be all arbiter of what is and is not correct.
@20damon: Ummm--- I think you nee to read my posts 105 and 123 CAREFULLLY again. Because judging from your last post, either you just SKIMMED, but didn't actually READ and COMPREHEND them---or you are just willfully ignoring information to get the results you want.
I gave examples of Superman not only resisting "focused blasts" of red sun radiation, but even IMMERSION, and an example of Superman COVERED in kryptonite while tanking a nuke and fighting a GANG of some of his most lethal adversaries (yet going on to defeat them). Yet in your last post you respond as if I didn't type anything.
Superman has-MANY times-overcame that "very specific weakness" you mention; and, as I explained, only kryptonite from Kal's particular universe affects him, so if the two are fighting in the Marvel, or a neutral universe, Surfer would most likely not be able to recreate the correct kryptonite, AND that could be countered by Kal going intangible as well, making the whole matter moot.
Apparently, in your mind, kryptonite and/or red sun is an "insta-win"---and I have patiently provided multiple examples to show you that that just isn't so.
@20damon: Ummm--- I think you nee to read my posts 105 and 123 CAREFULLLY again. Because judging from your last post, either you just SKIMMED, but didn't actually READ and COMPREHEND them---or you are just willfully ignoring information to get the results you want.
I gave examples of Superman not only resisting "focused blasts" of red sun radiation, but even IMMERSION, and an example of Superman COVERED in kryptonite while tanking a nuke and fighting a GANG of some of his most lethal adversaries (yet going on to defeat them). Yet in your last post you respond as if I didn't type anything.
Superman has-MANY times-overcame that "very specific weakness" you mention; and, as I explained, only kryptonite from Kal's particular universe affects him, so if the two are fighting in the Marvel, or a neutral universe, Surfer would most likely not be able to recreate the correct kryptonite, AND that could be countered by Kal going intangible as well, making the whole matter moot.
Apparently, in your mind, kryptonite and/or red sun is an "insta-win"---and I have patiently provided multiple examples to show you that that just isn't so.
I specifically said i didn't think it was an insta win, i believe the surfer is more powerful than Superman even before he'd be able to exploit his weaknesses. I am unconvinced that the Surfer would not be able to replicate the radiation to exploit his weakness, he can, supposedly, make just about any material. I think he wins hadnily here because not only do i believe him to be stronger, but i just think his powerset is a horrible matchup for Supes.
@20damon: Then as I mentioned you either didn't read what I wrote or are willfully ignoring information because you, quote, "believe" that Surfer is more powerful---and are one of those people who want to believe what they want to believe no matter what is presented to them.
There was no Speed Force in the Marvel universe, so Wally West Flash was almost terminated while there when his power faded.
When Superboy Prime and Superman (and various people from The Legion Of Superheroes' era) faced each other in different universes, the effectiveness of kryptonite fluctuated depending on where they were fighting.
The fully stocked Infinity Gauntlet, which DWARFS Surfer in power, was completely inoperable in the DC universe when Darkseid tried to use it.
Yet-because you "like" Surfer-you think Surfer can just ignore universal laws because---well, apparently just BECAUSE.
When debating with people who at least concede small, BASIC things, these forums can be fun. But then you run into people who will ignore all information-no matter what-so their FICTIONAL fave can win-and things become tedious.
It's one thing to think Radd can win (I think that's possible for that matter)---but after all the examples I laid out of Superman resisting every trick of Radd's (sometimes on multiply occasions), for you to still imply that Surfer, quote, "wins handily" is, to me, FAN, not FACT driven thinking
@theonewhoknows: The rules state that when characters are fighting they are assumed to have access to all their standard abilites, so abilities that work in their world work in the battle. You believe you're right, you haven't proven a thing strongly enough for me to change my mind. In the end, you're speaking your opinion which is not fact, it is your opinion and MOST people disagree with you. So if you want people to debate with you, you should start by stop being so obnoxious to those who do not share it. I've read your opinions and i do not think them compelling enough for me to change my mind. That's how debating go, stop telling me i should come to your way of thinking. I will if i believe your evidence is strong enough, and -MY OPINION- is that it has not been.
@theonewhoknows: And just so you know, i hate the SS. I'm not a fan.
SS beats Superman. And we determined that he didn't phase through Cyborg Superman. He punched through him and then vibrated him to bits. Superman has resisted red light radiation but has also succumbed to it. Or Surfer takes him to the astral plane or traps him in his board. Only way Supes wins is if it's completely a fist fight.
@20damon: Factually, clinically stating facts and figures is not "being obnoxious"---you take it that way because the facts, which I painstakenly take the time to document, interfere with what you want to believe, and you don't like that. That's regrettable, but not my responsibility. If examples of peoples powers acting differently depending on conditions such as where they are fighting are proven, documented factors in the battles-then that IS depicting them-factually-"in the rules".
And as I stated before, just a BRIEF glance at this thread (and a thread I brought up previous quotes I posted from, PLUS other threads-a few of which SupermanDefender, the creator of this very thread was on) show that there is not some kind of HUUUGE amount of people who "disagree" with me. You make that kinda of statement because that's want you WANT to believe. And simply because YOU claim I "haven't proven" something doesn't make it so, just because YOU state that. I kinda figured this is what you would do, judging from your behavior on that Wonder Woman/Hulk thread---despite multiple posters providing you with information, feats and see-with-your-own-eyes scans you continued to woefully, almost comically lowball Diana. So I'm not surprised to see a similar reprise here.
And I didn't say your behavior is due to ONLY the possibility that you "like" Radd better---as I said, there are those people that once they state something they will dig in their heels and stick to it no matter what info they get---because it's what the want to believe.
Facts and figures show Surfer cannot walk over Kal.
It's just that simple.
SS beats Superman. And we determined that he didn't phase through Cyborg Superman. He punched through him and then vibrated him to bits. Superman has resisted red light radiation but has also succumbed to it. Or Surfer takes him to the astral plane or traps him in his board. Only way Supes wins is if it's completely a fist fight.
"We" didn't decide anything. Superman has the ability to punch and/or phase through Surfer (or grab the inside of his mouth or nose), and can vibrate him to shards like he did Cyborg. Superman has resisted not only red sun radiation blasts, but entire immersion in a Red sun, so claiming that is a "cinch win" is ridiculous. Taking him to the astral plane would require Superman just standing there and LETTING him do it; trapping Supes on the board won't work since (A) Kal has strength feats like picking up half the Spectre's body (which weighs as much as eternity/infinity) and the immeasurable weight of the Book Of Infinite Pages with Captain Marvel-Ultra Man lifted it solo so there is no reason to think Kal can't do that too (I think those two items are heavier to budge than the Surfer's board) and (B) if Kal did not want to exert himself that much, he could vibrate to intangibility, and phase through the board. And Supes doesn't have to JUST brawl with Radd---he can shove him into the Source Wall, or stick him into the Phantom Zone.
Surfer wanking aside, Superman has resisted every trick of Radd's too many times for him to be bull dozed.
It's just that simple.
SS beats Superman. And we determined that he didn't phase through Cyborg Superman. He punched through him and then vibrated him to bits. Superman has resisted red light radiation but has also succumbed to it. Or Surfer takes him to the astral plane or traps him in his board. Only way Supes wins is if it's completely a fist fight.
In character, it seems like Surfer would be far more likely to just drain Superman of his stored solar energy. Attacking his opponent with his astral form or trapping them in his board, are things Surfer's only done once AFAIK.
Surfer is more than capable of taking each of them 1 on 1, but together they may be a real problem. I still don't see SS losing, but that's gonna be a good hard fight.
Surfer is more than capable of taking each of them 1 on 1, but together they may be a real problem. I still don't see SS losing, but that's gonna be a good hard fight.
Agreed
If Surfer doesn't have morals on and determined to win, but not bloodlusted, so basically a cold, calculating, efficient killer. He would just sense Superman has a weakness to krytonite and transmutate his heart into kryptonite and let him die that way and then go deal with Hal. I don't see a way Surfer loses this fight, even if morals were on.
@theonewhoknows: Surfer would easily drain him. If not, he can easily win by any other means. Lol Superman can vibrate him to shards? Norrin has regenerated instantly after being disintegrated. Stop lowballing.
Technically true but IIRC they were pretty different methods of trapping. The method he used on Genis-Vell seemed considerably more hax and it's the one I most often see sited.
Now how did I know that a fact free post or two would be placed in my absence?
@fiendish , it doesn't matter if Surfer uses the board trick, for the reasons I explained in post 136.
I'll leave the (expletive deleted),who is ACTUALLY not a "REASONABLE, UNBIASED" person alone since (A) I stated up front on the thread we were on together before-as well as this one- that "such is Surfer's power that it is legit he can win" (proving that whether I "like" a character better or not has no bearing on who I say wins); (B) I already dealt with them proper on the previous thread (C) the point-that Superman has the means to offensively vibrate Surfer apart still stands and (D) they were too (expletive deleted) to directly tag me, so I'll do the same to them.
And @maninthemountain pointing out that Superman can vibrate Surfer into shards is pointing out a simple fact, not "lowballing". And-if they are fighting in or near the DC universe, as Radd reassembles, Kal can-in nano seconds-stick parts of him in a black hole, parts of him in the Phantom Zone, and shove parts of him on the Source Wall. Even Surfer ain't "reassembling" from all that.
As for "any other means" of Surfer winning? You and I have already been through that; perhaps you too need to be reminded:
Red Sun: Despite the examples I showed in post 20-one of which included the man taking IMMERSION into a Red Sun-you are right back talking like this is an INSTANT defeat for Superman (sigh). You are correct in stating it cuts off his method to re charge---but you ran off the rails by stating that he'll only have "some" power, and that he'll be "getting weaker". For the umpteenth time---it takes a long, LONG time for it to even BEGIN to "wear off"! I would have thought the prior examples (detailed in post 20) would have pointed this out, but to add more---in Superman issue 167, after untold WEEKS of being on a planet with a Red Sun, Superman still had the ability to power Jor-El's old PLANET moving ion engines (the planet had a mass of SIXTEEN TIMES that of Earth's). For perspective, the weaker N52 Superman had the power to pull out of a black hole, then fly SIXTY DAYS straight from another solar system back to ours (shrugging off all the pressure, vacuum, and various forms of fatal radiation during his trek)---with NO SOLAR replinishing of his power; he also bench pressed the equivalent of the Earth for FIVE DAYS STRAIGHT while he was underground and away from sunlight). And again, this is a WEAKER version of Supes. Do you get it now? Superman can be cut away from his source, but it takes a long, LONG time for all that power to even BEGIN to run out! So he is NOT going to INSTANTLY DROP to the ground because of the introduction of a Red Sun---and he will therefore have NO PROBLEM mounting a counter attack on Radd in the meantime (what, do you think this FTL'er is just going to float around and LET Radd do whatever he wants during this time?? Maybe in an episode of "Maninthemountain's Fantasy Of How The Battle Would Go"---but NOT in an ACTUAL battle). So no---Norrin is NOT going to "blitz" someone who (as I detailed in posts 24 and 28) has the speed feats Kal has. And as for being able to "trap him inside his board", this is highly unlikely because (A) Superman has shown the combination of durability (tanking galaxy and solar system destroying trauma with no problem) and strength (lifting things thought to be IMPOSSIBLE to budge, like the Spectre, who weighs as much as eternity/infinity, and, with Captain Marvel, lift the immeasurable weight of The Book Of Infinite Pages-Kal's Earth Three counterpart Ultra Man lifted it solo, so there's no reason to believe Kal couldn't do that too) to be able to bust out from the board (you can't possibly think that it takes more strength to lift, push, or in some other way get the board off him than to lift, push, or otherwise budge the Spectre or The Book Of Infinite Pages); or (B) if The Man Of Steel didn't feel like exerting himself to that degree he could just use his ability to get to an intangible state (as detailed in post 19) and pass on through the board to escape it. So contrary to what you stated, Kal IS "strong enough to fight the likes of Surfer without a constant power supply".
TP: Glad you conceded the TP resistance matter (but I give just as many and valid examples of Supes resisting all the OTHER Surfer attack methods, yet you continued to argue for THEM). Oh, well.
Energy Draining: The question isn't "why Norrin can't drain Superman". The question is, "Can Norrin INSTANTLY drain Superman enough so that he couldn't mount an immediate counter attack"? Doubtful, since the planetary and galaxy level energy drainers I mentioned in posts 19 and 24 couldn't; I just don't see anything that is more "special" in Radd's draining abilities than theirs. And all the people you mentioned Radd draining are not more impressive than Superman, even Uni Lord. Surfer draining "attacks that was powerful enough to destroy a solar system" is nice and all, but Superman has weathered attacks at that level with NO PROBLEM, so Surfer would have to bring a LOT better energy draining than THAT to the skirmish---and there is no evidence here that long before Radd could do that, he wouldn't get FTL blows to the face, or a get flash-frozen long enough to break up the process, or for Kal to turn intangible, or any of a number of ways for the energy draining process to be disrupted (again, there are TWO people in this fight, and Supes is not going to just stand there with a dull look on his face while Radd does whatever he wants to do)!
Molecular Manipulation: You are the first person who, after being informed of Superman resisting magic manipulation from such uber powerful beings (as detailed in post 20) to continue to try to imply that Surfer's molecule manipulation would accomplish-FOR SURE-what those other beings could not. "Transmutation" is a synonym for "manipulation"---they are virtually the same thing! Both Surfer and those Magic based beings manipulate, or transmute molecules into a different form, except they do it through magic and Surfer does it through science-specifically the Power Cosmic. If anything, it is far more difficult to resist MAGIC based molecule manipulation than it is SCIENCE-but the point is moot, because other examples of Superman resisting matter manipulation include in Superman issue 34, when he resisted it from the extremely powerful opponent Skyhook; and in the DC wide crossover series "Legends" when he resisted it from Darkseid's Omega Beams (the Omega Effect can create life or erase it from existence, dissipate and/or disperse molecules from an object or organism, or control the internal organs of an organism and even de-volve it). In fact, while attacking Kal this way, Darkseid says "I can attune the frequency of my energy blasts to your precise molecular structure, Superman!' Yet Supes resisted this and fought him (obviously, as he is still here). Due to his bio forcefield aura, incredible durability, immense will, and-pardon the pun-SUPER control over his own molecules (as evidenced by his ability to will them to FTL speeds and beyond, or vibrate them to invisible and intangible states), Kal can resist molecular manipulation. So to answer your quesion, THAT is "how Supes gonna respond to that"---it not only proves he "can resist magic transmutation", he can resist transmutation or manipulation attacks against him, PERIOD. So just like the TP examples, after all these incidents of Superman resisting Matter/Molecule Manipulation/Transmutation, anyone who still claims-FOR SURE-that Surfer will be able to accomplish what ALL those beings were not, is guilty of willfully ignoring information because they "like" Surfer better, or because once they take a position they won't change it no matter WHAT new info they may receive.
Maninthemountain, to continue---
Strength Augmentation: "Surfer can augment his strength to match even the Hulk's"? COOL! Since Superman is superior to Jade Jaws (in addition to the feats I have already mentioned, Kal had the strength and power to smash through the Soulfire Darkseid version of the Lord Of Apokolyps-this version was the result of Darkseid usurping the power of the Source itself onto his body ), if Surfer wants to expand to Hulk's level and catch a morals off, super speed, vicious beat down, more power to him. And as for Surfer's blasts being able to "one shot planets" and "potentially bust a solar system"---well, here's where we get to that "more on that soon" portion of my posts that I was referring to earlier. It appears you either have a bit of reading comprehension difficulties, or you tend to SKIM, but not READ and COMPREHEND posts---why else would you, despite my patiently detailing (in post 20) Superman's tanking trauma that could destroy half a GALAXY (and SMILING without any ill effects WHATSOEVER) come right back and talk about Surfer being able to one shot PLANETS, as if that would be a big deal to Superman, or mention energy that could "potentially bust a solar system" when I ALREADY MENTIONED Kal resisting blasts from the Imperiex Probe that could VAPORIZE a solar system, ALSO with no ill effects? You're not willfully ignoring information to get the results you want, are you? I certainly HOPE not!
SPEED: Again, I have to wonder about your reading comprehension; I detailed in posts 24 and 28 examples of how Kal is a nano second combat and reaction time super speed being, yet you come right back and claim that, because Surfer has "microsecond and nano second feats", this means that Radd is "WAY" faster than Supes"! If they are BOTH nano second super speedsters, than how can Surfer be "WAY" faster than Kal???? I guess that, like the other abilities of Norrin that I have displayed (with MULTIPLE examples) of Superman resisting, you somehow think Surfer's nano second speed is somehow more "special" than Kal's nano second speed because---well, just BECAUSE. To paraphrase YOUR statement, "Good Luck with that", Power Cosmic guy.
The Korvac/Surfer Fight: Where in the world did you get the idea that, because I factually, clinically stated how their battle revealed that Surfer's brain is vulnerable underneath that shiny armor is a way to "downplay" Radd? I could see if I had said "That loser Surfer couldn't even stand up to a punk like Korvac and got his butt handed to him" or something---but I said nothing of the kind! The point seemed to have sailed over your head; I was not referring to that battle to show that Surfer was "weak" in some way, but to show that Korvac's actions demonstrated a weakness that a morals off Kal can exploit! Superman doesn't have to be "no where near Korvac" to use his x-ray, telescopic, and heat vision powers to attack Radd in the manner I mentioned in post 29. And your mentioning that the Kryptonians's "x-ray can't go through lead" is irrelevant and somewhat non sensible. As far as I know, there is no other substance that Kal's vision can't see through (even futuristic substances he encountered in the 30th century in adventures with The Legion Of Superheroes), so because it can't see through lead doesn't mean it can't see through Radd. No, the more likely scenario is that Kal's x-ray vision (which can be honed to the levels I gave several examples of in post 29) will work in the way I mentioned, and will result in defeat for Norrin!
Lesser Beings Affecting Surfer: Once again you missed the point in stating the outcomes of the various weaker-than-Superman beings that I mentioned who batted Surfer around. I didn't mention them to say that they could "beat" Radd; I mentioned them to point out that they all-regardless of the final outcomes of the battles-were able to impact and/or otherwise distract Surfer for various amounts of time. The point still stands-if lesser being like THEM could get Radd off of them for ANY amount of time, then Superman will DEFINITELY be able to get Norrin off his back (a nano second or two is all that would be needed) to, if they are fighting in or somewhere near the DC universe to stick Radd on the Source Wall, or place him in the Phantom Zone to rot. Get it? The point is NOT that the Thing, Rhino, et. al could BEAT Radd, it's that the shots the likes of THEM could get on Radd are like CHILD'S PLAY to the damage Kal could get in, and impact Surfer long enough for Superman to implement the strategies I mentioned.
Time Travel: Superman time travels too, he can go right behind Surfer and follow him wherever he goes. Or, if he gets the idea first, if they are fighting in or anywhere near the Marvel universe he can use his telescopic and x-ray vision to peruse any government facility (or for that matter any phone or library) get the goods on Surfer in nano seconds (Superman has perused super thick, entire whole BOOKS in no time flat),and travel back in time and kill him when he was just Norrin Radd.
So-"in conclusion"-there is literally no trick that Surfer has done that Kal has not matched, multiple times. So with all this evidence, it is sheer folly to claim that-FOR SURE-Supes can't do unto Surfer before Radd can do unto him. Due to his powers, it's certainly POSSIBLE for Surfer to win---and it is just as possible for Superman to achieve the win, too.
I know people don't "like" the ways I show that Surfer-who they think is the character that can finally "easily" take out "that +&%%^+ing over powered Superman"-actually CAN'T just run all over Kal---but that's life.
@fiendish , it doesn't matter if Surfer uses the board trick, for the reasons I explained in post 136.
In the instance where Surfer trapped Genis-Vell in his board, Genis was completely powerless to stop him. Physical strength would be more or less useless.
@fiendish: Genis-Vell is NOT Superman---just because HE couldn't get out doesn't mean Kal can't. I mean, I know Genis-Vell is no slouch---he has gone toe to toe with the likes of Hulk, Hulk's future persona The Maestro, Drax, beaten down Blastaar and Burstaar and pretty much stalemated Entropy among many feats. Impressive.
But I have seen no evidence that the strength, durability, and/or striking ability it would take to escape the board is more "special" than what it took Superman to:
Hold a black hole in his hand
or partially lift the Spectre, who's immeasurable weight is as much as eternity/infinity---
or move a solar system
---or smash through the Soulfire Darkseid version of the Lord Of Apokolips (yes, he reassembled but to break through a being that had the absorbed power of the energy beyond the Source Wall-even for a moment-is incredible)
To claim that a man that can combine the strength, durability, and striking power to do the above feats will-FOR SURE-not be able to get away from Radd's board is a dubious notion at best. But the point is moot, because, as I said previously, on the SLIGHT chance that Kal couldn't lift or bust his way out, since his ability to vibrate to an intangible state is so great that he can do this
or even THIS
---there is no doubt that Superman can escape the board one way or the other. If the Man Of Steel's vibration control is so great that he can phase a PLANET into another reality---there is NO DOUBT he can phase HIMSELF through the board (or for that matter, contrary to some uninformed people's wishful thinking, phase through Surfer, re solidify, and vibrate him to shards and pieces, then deal with him if he reassembles in the way I described in post 146).
That is why, as I said, it is a moot point if Surfer managed to get Kal in the board, and why, due to all the evidence I have layed out---it is absolute FOLLY to claim that Surfer can run all over Superman, because he has demonstrated a counter (often on multiple occasions) for everything Radd can pull.
Again, looking through the instance with Genis-Vell, I'm not sure why you're thinking physical strength would be any help. If Clark's able to vibrate his molecules while trapped that may work to allow him to escape but Genis-Vell seemed to be turned into a hollow reflection in the board and there was no indication he could do anything with his powers while trapped.
What's the most durable opponent Superman has vibrated into and then shattered (I was unaware he had actually done this)?
Surfer's cosmic glaze is shown to be quite resistant to many types of attacks.
It's withstood a solid hit from Morg's axe without a scratch.
This is impressive because Morg's axe was able to cleave Surfer's board in two.
Protected him from atomization.
Reflected an energy beam generated from all six Infinity Gems that was rendering Galactus powerless.
Surfer's durability has allowed him to survive attacks from Galactus, Mephisto, Ego, Odin, Aegis and Tenebrous. In his most recent fight with Thor, he took repeat hits from Mjolnir, yet Thor was completely unable to keep him down. During Chaos War, Skyfather Hercules tried and failed to knock him out with physical force.
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